Reduce Primal Mighty Swing mass pvp efficiency

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

wat? if you cant understand the terms i use, prolly you dont have enough mmorpg pvp experience as i do

your logic is flawed because you claim that removing "natural abilities" like simple kites, cleanses or antistuns to avoid Focus Fire (after getting a permanent uncounterable CC) is just legit
Where are you even getting this from? Quote me instead of making stuff up please....

and that is nor logic either it isnt legit

cause w.e. the class you are (the concept is invalid for sage sins), if you will get into the paralyze loop and you ll suffer AA , you wont be able to back out of it

what you said is that any other 2 classes would've CCed me the same way and exposed me to AA,

very very wrong, you can purify cleanse kite or prevent other CCs with plenty of skills, genie, apo...
Are you just repeating this nonsense on purpose? I already explained more than once than once and implied that other CC's can be purified/cleansed or countered if it's NOT paralyze. But what you are failing to understand clearly is that they still CAN CC you unless you get lucky with purify OR your genie is off CD to save you. This is no different with paralyze because it's still a 50/50 chance to paralyze. You keep talking about mighty swing like the paralyze will happen 100% of the time which clearly that is not the case now is it. Again read my post and understand it instead of ignoring the core of it and coming up with senseless comments.

you cant purify cleanse kite or prevent Mighty Swing proc
I have stated this already and implied that the PARALYZE can't be purified but you can kite. It's not my fault if you lack the ability to utilize your skills/aerocraft/apoth/genie and kite.

I am now officially under the impression either English isn't your main language, you're possibly trolling, or you just are not understanding anything I am posting. I could be wrong, but it has become ultimately clear that you actually cannot come up with one reason as of now as to why my post is invalid or flawed.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

so why are we arguing can you sum up your point in one single phrase?

I am no longer going to try and sum up anything for you. I made one long post which is fully detailed and covers both ends of the spectrum. If you're having trouble understanding it ask someone else to explain it or maybe they will step forward. I would rather not waste any more time explaining something which I think is actually quite easy to comprehend. So unless you have something to say that will deepen this topic and is not related to my previous posts I wont be responding to it. I'm going to sleep zZzzzzzzz.

Hello all,

Just make paralyze avoidable by fortify and anti-stun; however, do not let paralyze have the downfall of being purified.

Best,

OverHealed

What's the big deal? Most useful skills barbs have for PVP have a chi cost, they aren't spammable or both.

Isn't that the case with most classes?
Minus the Sin and new elimination that doesn't cost anything (arguably tidal protection too but in a different way, plus purify proc but that's another subject)...most classes' skills that are useful in PvP have either chi cost or a reasonable cooldown that makes them non-spamable (or have long cast/chan so you can interrupt/prevent it) or low proc rate (demon ironwood 20% chance to proc anyone?). Whereas the low/no chi cost, low cd and/or spamable stuff aren't strong enough to kill or cause problems.

What could you do against The-Al-Migty Swing?

Everyone can use AD/IG/sutra to predict it. A possible immobilize instead of a paralyze also gives you some time to do something about it or you can act BEFORE the barb is in melee range, for example:

Most people don't Ad/IG/sutra a mere stun or a mere freeze etc., they save it for when it's really needed it. You fail to see the fact that someone has to waste one of the most valuable resources for something simple like that in mass PvP.

Nevermind that mighty swing is damn fast and anyone who doesn't super low ping won't be able to react fast to it. In 1v1 you sure as hell can see the barb coming. In mass PvP and TW? Not so much. But we aren't talking about 1v1.

Venomancers can bewitch the barb, feral concentration, Lucky Scarab, kite w/ demon fox form
Other barbs... well, troll each other
Wizards can arcane defense, distance shrink, kite the barb
BMs can use their own paralyze, stunlock, marrow (if no other ppl around), leaps
Archers can resist with wings of grace with good timing, leap, stun, kite
Clerics can SOG, sleep, kite, plume shell, guardian light, purify immobilize and run
Sins can stunlock, stealth, teleport
Psychics can SoR, psy will, white voodoo
Seekers could possibly QPQ has anyone tested? teleport away with voidstep, transposition
Mystics can kite, sleep, knockback, silence and trololol the barb beyond the level of annoyance

When you have 2 others (or more) after you, you won't be able to react so fast like that. Remember, mass PvP.

Issue is many barbs permastunlocking you? Barbs aren't the only ones who can do that. b:surrender

Stuns, freezes can be prevented by the classes' natural ability of anti-stun skills. Then there's cheap things like Badge of Courage to break from the stuns and the stuns/freezes can be purified. Sleep wears off the moment someone hits it.

You fail to see that BM/sin stunlocking =/= paralyze because they are different things.

..but but BMs have paralyze too!! At the cost of 1 spark they won't be able to spam it, even less so with the cd.

..but but venos have paralyze too!!! at the cost of 1 spark with a massive cd of 180sec, you won't be seeing that much either. Plus it's only 2 freaking seconds. Arguable makes it useless and not worth using at all.

And all the claims about barb's being too tanky... hm, let's think of that again.

Barbarian is in HUMAN, yes, HUMAN form while using this skilL. Thus they lose the advantage of extra HP, phys def, invoke and speed. Killing a barb in human form is not so damn hard, and a barb switching to tiger form means they do not have time to CC you all day.

In mass PvP when you have multiple threats from multiple directions it won't matter that human form barbs are squishier.
You see all those undergeared venos running around purging and causing havoc..but but they are squishy!!! well when you have multiple threats around you, you won't be able to prevent everything and kill everything. But things like purge, amp etc. have reasonable cooldowns of 30sec and such.

..but but barbs can't kill you with mighty swing!!! the friends behind him can. remember this is mass PvP not 1v1.

trands wrote: »

You're seeing the smaller picture only, just like Colum with his counter list showing he has no idea about other classes. You're only seeing the barb. What this new mighty swing does is turning the barb in the next 3-button class. Barbs are great for what they were intended to do and have been granted decent options to be more versatile. But now, barbs are a main offensive cc next to their traditional role, while also having access to (non-genie) purge and important defensive skills (that are unlike said in this thread, not only tigerform).

It will go the same as with archers (where 9 out of 10 don't know what to do other then pray for a purge on undergeared opponent), sins (that still suffer a massive brain-dead community of spark-macro) and seekers (of which 9 out of 10 can only spam gemini slash till they zerk+crit). It's a way to attract players to the barb class for it's easy 1-skill based power, but it won't make tanks less rare.

Just wait till the barbs discover r8r mighty purge hammer spam. Then we'll get a massive wave of archer QQ.

Once again you're another poster stating a claim against me with no quotes/supporting arguments.Point out where in any of my posts in this thread I am seeing the small picture or how you even came to this conclusion.

Indeed, as you point out on multiple occasions, people keep repeating their "its mass PvP" argument and then go on talking about multiple barbs vs 1 player. Disregarding the fact that there should be multiple players on both sides and that X v 1 is imbalanced in by definition.

So lets proceed with the mass PvP argument but make it complete. Lets say we have 2-3 barbs (2 isnt enough really with the 50% chance of succes as well as cooldown = 2x duration) stunlocking you while your 1-2 caster or archer allies are standing 30 meters away abusing the fact that we are focusing on you not them, so they can combine their bufs/debufs and strongest spells to 1 shot the barbs...

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

I see your point, normal stunlocks are easier to break from than paralyze. However, it does not mean it is THE BARB and THE-AL-MIGHTY-SWING that causes the UNAVOIDABLE HORRIBLE DEATH! b:shocked Other classes have plenty of tricks on how to disturb you even if you can break from their stunlocks. To me it seems like people arent just using these as much as they could, for example Transposition is highly underrated skill.

Oh and, also us barbs can be the "victim" of our own paralyze.

The difference between Barbarians and other classes is that their disruption skills have a cost. Assassins are more or less a different story as long as they're efficient with chi skills, but the point still stands.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

thats not the point... there are roles in this game like in any other game...

roles like DD, Tank, Support

the tank class should be the tank class period... not tank support and eventually DD

Then the Barb should have a skill to absorb the damage being dealt to friendly targets - to force the other party to deal with the hitpoint monster rather then ignore it as a melee fighter with sub-par damage output to for instance a seeker or BM. Seriously, without this stun of theirs making Barbs a threat to you, would you target them before the enemy archers, seekers and sins are down? A tank can't tank unless it's drawing fire. With NPCs that works, but with players having a brain behind their actions, not so much.

did you even watch the video? lazy to kite? i kited as much as i could, when i didnt get paralyzed i got frozen -> leap -> by the time freeze is off i received another paralyzed or freeze status

and at that point i cant leap anymore cause my CD is way longer that mighty swing cd...

a single barb currently with a single mighty swing paralyze proc can already open enough chances to get you focus fired and drop you down in mass pvp, while he can be a tanky vit barb that its impossible to kill 1on1, and if focus fired it will take a lot of time and resources to take him down (invoke cornered solid shield apo etch...)

and also while he can use antistun and avoid the CCs while the other classes cannot...

And noone on your team bothered to stun one of them barbies to give you time to clear away? I did watch the video, but it's a bit blurry to see what's going on all the time. But I stick with my earlier point. Counter with sleep, immobilize, slow and standard stun skills. Especially sleep if you're gonna try to ignore those barbs rather then drop them.

if the barbs are 2, at that point you are forced to use AD or IG, else you are dead and you are completely disrupted from the fight...

what i want to repeat to you again, put a barb with my gears and 2 undergeread wizards on the other side...

can those 2 wizards even remotely land the amount of mass pvp disruption that 2 undergeared barbs can do?
also can those 2 undergeared wizards even sustain such CCs loop?

no they cant, as no other class can

the tank role in any rpg game DOESNT and SHOULD NOT have such feature.

Nope, like I said, pure tanks should have friendly damage mitigation skills that harden nearby party members. But making them a threat that requires you to think of a way to counter them works too. As for two underequip wizzies vs one barb? I'm not very knowledgable about wizzies, but between Will of the Phoenix, Blinding Blaze, Spatial Reversion, Mountains Seize, Distance Shrink, Glacial Snare and prolly some other skills I don't have on the list now, I imagine wizzies can slow, stun, freeze and dodge a barb quite efficiently.

Zoldi: For that moment I'd prolly AD and try to get a Thicket out, or better yet, Lidless Blossom. Double seal or snoozing kitties - then exit stage left. If short on chi, Galeforce is also an option. Or heck, Cragger on defensive if the barbs don't seem that strong ('tho a summon trying to take out a tank is prolly pointless).

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

thats not the point... there are roles in this game like in any other game...

roles like DD, Tank, Support

the tank class should be the tank class period... not tank support and eventually DD
(Refer to my post below) May I ask why? Because you say so?

did you even watch the video? lazy to kite? i kited as much as i could, when i didnt get paralyzed i got frozen -> leap -> by the time freeze is off i received another paralyzed or freeze status

and at that point i cant leap anymore cause my CD is way longer that mighty swing cd...
Well as I noticed in your video, it seems to me your team was poorly coordinating and hardly providing support. I don't know for certain what skills your team has or gear. But I didn't see any real use of god seals on the barb/sleeps or sins just freezing them temporarily with tackling slash.

a single barb currently with a single mighty swing paralyze proc can already open enough chances to get you focus fired and drop you down in mass pvp, while he can be a tanky vit barb that its impossible to kill 1on1, and if focus fired it will take a lot of time and resources to take him down (invoke cornered solid shield apo etch...)

Virtually any class or group of them can open an opportunity to get you focused fired IF the team calls to AA you...You also said a tanky vit barb....Vit barb build damage on a wide scale is trash in mass PvP, the only thing they can really be is just an annoyance. And assuming they are buffed they obviously even with AA they will be hard to kill(if they are smart anyway) let alone by yourself. That's just common knowledge. TLDR Version:Vit build barb is a tanky build...NO REALLY!?

and also while he can use antistun and avoid the CCs while the other classes cannot...

What lol? I want to say something but please elaborate on this more. I have a feeling my response wont be geared to your actual point.

if the barbs are 2, at that point you are forced to use AD or IG, else you are dead and you are completely disrupted from the fight...

Assuming they either one of them has good damage then yes. But you ultimately pointed out, you would be forced to AD or IG. In other words use your genie or apoth. So unless I am wrong you are speaking from the stand point they are BOTH PARALYZING you back to back consistently(which as far as I am concerned would be rare). But the point I want to get across is that unless your purify procs and one of them fails to get you with paralyze that's more than enough time to run away(which I noticed happened in your video). Just like if it was two sins/bms on you, you would expend your genie or IG(or something else) to get away from the lock OR if your lucky purify. And I am going to assume those barbs are not fully geared or vit barbs because their damage on you was hardly anything to worry about.

what i want to repeat to you again, put a barb with my gears and 2 undergeread wizards on the other side...

can those 2 wizards even remotely land the amount of mass pvp disruption that 2 undergeared barbs can do?
also can those 2 undergeared wizards even sustain such CCs loop?

no they cant, as no other class can

Can they provide as much CC as 2 undergeard barbs and sustain it? Nope I agree with you, but you're wrong if you think no other class can do it lol....And I am not even going to bother to list them(unless have to) as I would hope by this point you have PvPed enough to realize that.And again in my honest opinion even in mass PvP the only classes that truly suffer from this back to back Paralyze are arcanes or unbuffed squishies.

Also again it's not as though Paralyze procs all the time.Even if it's 2 barbs hitting you it's 50/50. So if even ONE of them fails to get Paralyze off and your purify procs you can escape.But this assuming the other barbs MS is in CD or you don't lag or something and they can hit you again. And besides even if they did you get with MS again and your purify proced it's NOT guaranteed they will paralyze you again.

But also based on your scenario of 2 wizards let me also point something else out. They may not have the same CC ability as lets say a sin/cleric/barbs but as you should know by now they don't NEED it. Wizards have WAY more than enough destructive power or DPH in their skills to put virtually any class out of commission when set up for a kill whether it's mass or 1v1.

the tank role in any rpg game DOESNT and SHOULD NOT have such feature.

I guess you don't play that many games since you came to this conclusion. Also I hope when you made this statement your basing it on actual MMO's similar to this game, not games that are completely different have no relation to an online MMO's with PvP. But I don't want to get into that discussion since this not what the threads about. Also please tell me why they SHOULD NOT have the ability to perform (I assume your saying correct me if I am wrong) this amount of CC? It's actually beginning to sound that your opinions are actually more biased and based on the fact the game or PVP mechanics should be designed and based on your past experience with games.
(Notice I said 'sound' didn't say it is.)

also another thought...

if this was made cause purify was op,

then remove purify from all arcane weapons, therefore remove paralyze proc
and give arcane weapons sh.t like god of frenzy

They probably wouldn't since most players on this server are spoiled with purify proc. Again on a server I shall not name their is no purify/purge bows etc. But if they did remove it I would be surprised. Ultimately my suggestion was(in my older post) to make Paralyze function exactly like a stun and purify capable. But as I also said thay would completely defeat the purpose of the skill in terms of how the devs designed it. But I would gladly love to keep the Freeze/Paralyze chance in the exchange of making it purify capable at least. Though I did lol at GoF on arcane weapons.

i would trade that b:pleased

Haven't you already realized in nearly any MMO online game with a mass PvP aspect that 'roles' are not actually set in stone? Most games give each class their apparent 'standard role', but they are not limited to that alone.

Like for example barbs are primarily tanks, but even seekers and BMs can be a tank in virtually all cases, even well geared squishes. But then again Barb still makes a superior tank naturally because of their skills especially in a scenario if they get purged.

Cleric's in PvP for example ACT as mainly supports since primarily thats what most of their skills are geared towards. But look at all their DD/CC skills? If you have PvPed agains't actual good clerics in mass or 1v1 you should have seen they have the ability to keep more than one opponent CCed and even kill them extremely effectively on their own or even in group PvP(If your not sure watch some of Aeliah's PvP videos).

Even assassins can achieve the ability to be 'tank's' even though their apparent 'role' seems to be more burst damaging a single target to death while being a decoy of sorts. Simple non APS buiild with Chill of the Deep,Tidal,Death Chain s39/NW gears and an assassin achieves the ability to easily tank any class in 1v1 and Mass pvp similarly but not nearly as effectively as a barb of course.Did I forget to mention while they can be tanky they can also dish out stupid amounts of damage in a short space of time?

Although yes the fact other classes can switch roles is again due to their skill setup and gear. But that's how the DEVS designed it.This game was made ultimately to make money, the devs only provde as much fun/PvP mechanics as needed to keep the majority of the player base 'happy' as long as they continue paying. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter what we think as you can see they still continue to release unfinished content because they know people will pay for it and still play. Rest of my stuff in red.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

nope, no other class can spam an uncounterable CC, any other class spammable CC can be countered\cleansed\purified , allowing both "parts" a fair trade (CC from one side therefore CD or chi cost for most likely genie or antistun CD on the other side)

I'm aware no other class has a luck based spammable PARALYZE, but that is not what I was even talking about.

(acknowledged that other classes have spammable CCs, but i am not sure if any other class can spam the very same CC in the same solid way Mighty Swing can be spammed)

again i am not saying that the proc itself is broken,

i keep saying for the 100th time that the cooldown and the chi cost should be way and way higher, cause i dont know if you have ever faced 2 barbs in a pk session, but if those 2 barbs target you, you wont be able to do anything until eventually those 2 barbs land purge and kill you or you simply receive AA and you are dead w\o the option of a comeback,

The main point I am trying to get across as I even said in the last post is that it's mainly Arcanes or under geared squishies that suffer the most from this scenario. 2 barbs spamming MS on a HA class still wont really ->on average<- have the killing power to be effective unless the the HA they targetting has wasted their escape options or is undergeared or focus fired. On Arcanes or squishies naturally they have they will have the advantage unless taken care of.

And also the main reason I am entirely against a chi or cooldown cost on mighty swing is because it is virtually the only the main somewhat high damage skill that is spammable.Hence why I suggested that it could be changed that it could be purified/cleansed but still maintain it's paralyze/freeze proc.

And no Swell's damage is terrible along with stomp of the beast king,stomp of the king,slam,Garrote,alacrity and surf impact. All those skills in PvP as far as I am concerned are just pokes to hopefully set someone up for a charm bypass or provide some form of CC/Debuff. The barbs only real main killing or damage dealing skills in PvP are Mighty Swing/Bestial Onslaught/Ancestral Rage/Devour and Armageddon if they are lucky.



now name me, another mmorpg where CCs dont have a counter, or where the tank can provide the best support available in game...

Again I am not talking about paralyze or CC's at all, I am refering to the fact that most MMO's especially recent MMO's similar to PW's mechanics, design their classes with a 'standard role'. But by the time that class is geared up they can step outside their role as 'mainly a tank' or 'mainly a healer'.

Also this:'or where the tank can provide the best support available in game'. If you're referring to barbarians in PW that is far from the truth. They make fantastic supports in PvP but the best? As I said above, barbs can be huge damage dealers end game if built that way, but they still only come across as an annoyance in mass PvP and that's as far as I can put them on the list in terms of threat rate.

non-tanky support classes should have mighty swing, a solid CC skill with a proc like that i would consider it legit just on venomancers cause bms are offtanks anyways...

I think you would make another thread of the brokenness of MS on BMs if that was ever the case -.-.....

assassins are another kettle of fish, their ccs are annoyance in 1on1 but in mass pvp they will get purified cleansed etch... the biggest threat of a sin in mass pvp its the ridicolous amount of DPS they can dish out...

Exactly, and as I said above, they can even tank multiple players in mass PvP but just on a smaller scale. While again all the time being able to deal HUGE amounts of damage.Not that I mind though since they squish outside of tidal and death chain.

now if you dont want the game to be reduced to Mighty Swing + Elimination, devs need to nerf both of those skills

As far as I am concerned Elimation is about the only skill I have finally come across in my time playing PWI where I actually believe is scary end game.

Replies in the red of reds.