Reviving The Game

WannaBM - Archosaur · October 2013

Asone - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you want to keep playing this game then you have to reply on new players to come help populate it. All of us supporting this thread have already stated the reasons many times as to why the lower level areas need to be teaming with life again.

And those who dont support it have many times said that it will not help to repopulate the low level areas. It will only help to prevent them from making more alts. To make them powerlevel them in different ways. And to generally annoy them, leading only to more decline in overall game population. Not to repopulate the low level areas.

Its kinda like the lefties in my government wanting to get people out of their car into the train. They advocate not building any more roads to fight the growing amount of trafic. It can do a lot of things, including causing me to emigrate, but surely it wont get me into the train.

Asone - Raging Tide · October 2013

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

And those who dont support it have many times said that it will not help to repopulate the low level areas. It will only help to annoy the existing players. To prevent them from making more alts. To make them powerlevel them in different ways. But not to repopulate the low level areas.

You all have said this, but the ones not support the thread have not given any better ideas or suggestions and have only skirted around the the answers, questions, and debating (it's like watching presidential elections all over again).

Just how long will old players be staying on one game? Years, yes, but not forever. Heck I've been here longer then I want to admit. But this whole "prevent them from making more alts" is a childish notion. No one is preventing you from making more alts. And it's already been stated over and over and over again why the lower areas should be up and running.

If you got any ideas at all I would love to hear them. Brainstorm here. I don't want to read what you already posted before either cause I've already seen that.

WannaBM - Archosaur · October 2013

Asone - Raging Tide wrote: »

You all have said this, but the ones not support the thread have not given any better ideas or suggestions and have only skirted around the the answers, questions, and debating (it's like watching presidential elections all over again).

Meaning you have not read the thread. I have given lots of suggestions. I think it is the other way around. I can keep repeating my argumentation, but it is ignored and another one who didnt read the thread like you will come along claiming there is no argumentation.

And regardless, even the lack of alternative ideas does not turn a bad idea into a good one.

HeavenxDoom - Lost City · October 2013

wanabm only reason he is against it is cos he is a seller

so i think his opinion is null

cos he always gona be against it and have come with nothing to prove the reason why

also like they say if there more ppl who are for fc why are they not here voting

like any diplomacy if you dont vote you dont have a right to say anything... so i would advice these ppl who are againts to get there friends or the against always gona be a few %

Triandi - Raging Tide · October 2013

When I saw the name of the topic, I couldn't help but peek inside..

I haven't played PWI for nearly 1,5 years... a long break.

After coming back, my mid lv 80 chara was unfamiliar to me just as the game play and I thought, better start off anew to get back into the game.

What I noticed shocked me quite a bit.

In not even 4 weeks my chara hit lv 76.

That is pretty fast and to me, someone who started playing pwi nearly 4 years ago, I realized that the beginner areas are empty.

The world chat is full of people looking for high level dungeons, but no bh29/39 let alone 51 to find. Every now and then, if lucky, a call for bh59 but else... it gets dominated by people offering FC ( be it paid, squads or free )

This game has a lot to offer... I personally am no friend of powerleveling because I think it takes away the opportunity to learn how the class you picked, is played. Something only experience and spending time while questing will give you.

High level and good gear won't make up for that. If you don't know your class, your chara's weaknesses and strength, it will be tricky.

I know that many will not agree to this, but this is my opinion

Restricting the entrance to FCC combined with a restriction of hyper exp stones for players prior lv 75 is a good "start" to get more life back.

I understand that new players want to level but it works well with the mechanism the game already has... maybe a squad finder system would help to get parties quicker and easier for instances...

To make this more interesting for high lv charas, it could be added something like a master (mentor) / pupils system, rewarding the mentor with useful items based on their level when they help lower levels with their bh runs. Untradable- but being able to store in account stash- stuff then please <.<

Related to a mentor/ pupil system, daily quests ( or 3 times a week or any other rhythm) would be an option too...

Another thought could be "mini games/ dailies" that are only for the beginner areas. Instead for example from those npc's that give the reward chests for reaching lv 5,15 and certain cultivation levels.

This are just my 2 cents.. from someone who still loves the game and came back after a long hiatus...

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · October 2013

This is almost like a small cult movement where a few people have taken to it almost religiously, where the 'unrefutable' conclusion has been drawn that the only viable way to 'revive' the game is to restrict choices that perhaps those wanring them restricted have used in the past. To deny that this is the *only* way to resurrect this game and bring in new players is almost blasphemy, and will be shut down by fanatical zealots. *how dare thee refute the unrefutable principle*

I refuse to vote in such a loaded poll. However I do agree in principle that hypers are part of the problem.

A new player trying out PWI for the first time is met with an empty starter city. Considering that this is until lvl 20 when via questline you are sent to Archosaur, the key phase that we need to address is lvl 1-20.

Now before the zealots (you know who you are) pounce on me; I frankly dont give a f**k. Make hypers 100+ I dont care. As long as I can use them to PV to 105 makes no difference to me. The question is where do you draw the line.

Do people really want to quest to 75?

Is it fair to restrict peoples choices, given that you had the option to use it, many people who obviously did use hypers.

Most of the posts defending this that I'm seeing are from the 'I leveled all my 20 toons the slow hard way so I'm better than all you power lvlers who are all noob coz you didnt do 500 quests on every toon over several years' this kind of attitude clouds your judgement and gives you a false sense of superiority where you feel; like a priest/policeman to hold some kind of authority over others. My advice would be sftu and take a reality check.

To actually help in resolving this issue as a playerbase, we need to encourage lower lvl factions, that actively recruit and help new players.

From a PWI perspective the best solution is to put a lvl cap on hypers. 40-50 would be reasonable. I think 75 is too high. Also restrict entry to FC unless you are 85. There are plenty of other options like the low lvl Phoenix valley which encourage more squad based efforts rather than everyone grab a bow and master the art of hitting two heads per go.

WannaBM - Archosaur · October 2013

HeavenxDoom - Lost City wrote: »

like any diplomacy if you dont vote you dont have a right to say anything... so i would advice these ppl who are againts to get there friends or the against always gona be a few %

Another part of bullcrap.

I do not believe in the democracy they are trying to sell us. Therefore i can choose to not vote since voting will only help te legitimize the joke they call democracy.

Think for yourself. Dont copy what everyone sais.

Ps, i already explained that i am not really a seller since the price at which i am willing to sell is high enough that i will never have a costomer. But ye, the standard thsese days: dont read, dont think, just shout.

Miugre - Heavens Tear · October 2013

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I take it you haven't read any of my posts? It's the only way you can actually ask "what's your problem with this change?", and "come up with some better ideas" -- both of which were already addressed quite a number of times.

Unless I missed something major, the only "better idea" you've ever offered is more endgame content, which I've already responded to. You then proceeded to say that you believed the game is doomed no matter what happens. Given that viewpoint, what makes you in any way qualified to judge what will save it?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The forums has long been a popular haven for negativity and QQ, as well as those who think they know top notch development, yet can't seem to develop their own game to put it to the test. The responses malcontents get on these forums gives them delusions of grandeur, hence why I refer to those who obviously don't share this view as the silent majority because people playing aren't here posting QQ or just get fed up of it and leave. (I'll argue with them when I have the free time and am taking a short break from playing, I don't care)

You seem to care enough to make it worth your while to write all your walls-of-text. Unless you're going to come out with "no really guys, idc, can't you take a joke," like every troll of your caliber does when they have nothing left to argue with (actually, seeing as they usually leave after saying that line, maybe you can save us all some time and just skip to it).

But while we're on the subject of delusions, maybe we can start with your perception of the in-game population. I never cared to know if you sell heads, by the way, because it made no difference to me on how terrible and evasive your arguments were. But head-seller or not, the percentage of HT's population you hang out with doesn't give you any ground to make the silent majority argment. How much of HT's population have you met? How many of them were powerlevelers? Of those, how many actually thought it was a good idea, rather than going along with it because it's the state of the game right now? Again - you don't have to agree with something to partake in it. Personally, I see just as many people whining about there being no powerleveling squads available as people actually offering it. There are a fair number of people recruiting for midgame activities such as BH51/59 as well. But of course the vast majority of WC is endgame-related. Do you care to ask all the endgame folks whether they support powerleveling or not? I'd be a discussion much like this thread, I'd think.

By the way, in case you missed it. Because everyone misses posts sometimes. ;]

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote:

This is almost like a small cult movement where a few people have taken to it almost religiously, where the 'unrefutable' conclusion has been drawn that the only viable way to 'revive' the game is to restrict choices that perhaps those wanring them restricted have used in the past. To deny that this is the *only* way to resurrect this game and bring in new players is almost blasphemy, and will be shut down by fanatical zealots. *how dare thee refute the unrefutable principle*

I refuse to vote in such a loaded poll. However I do agree in principle that hypers are part of the problem.

A new player trying out PWI for the first time is met with an empty starter city. Considering that this is until lvl 20 when via questline you are sent to Archosaur, the key phase that we need to address is lvl 1-20.

Now before the zealots (you know who you are) pounce on me; I frankly dont give a f**k. Make hypers 100+ I dont care. As long as I can use them to PV to 105 makes no difference to me. The question is where do you draw the line.

Do people really want to quest to 75?

Is it fair to restrict peoples choices, given that you had the option to use it, many people who obviously did use hypers.

Most of the posts defending this that I'm seeing are from the 'I leveled all my 20 toons the slow hard way so I'm better than all you power lvlers who are all noob coz you didnt do 500 quests on every toon over several years' this kind of attitude clouds your judgement and gives you a false sense of superiority where you feel; like a priest/policeman to hold some kind of authority over others. My advice would be sftu and take a reality check.

To actually help in resolving this issue as a playerbase, we need to encourage lower lvl factions, that actively recruit and help new players.

From a PWI perspective the best solution is to put a lvl cap on hypers. 40-50 would be reasonable. I think 75 is too high. Also restrict entry to FC unless you are 85. There are plenty of other options like the low lvl Phoenix valley which encourage more squad based efforts rather than everyone grab a bow and master the art of hitting two heads per go.

Holy ****, an actual dissenting argument which isn't all fluff and whining? It even has a new suggestion in it. I must be dreaming. o.o

The boldfaced portion is the most interesting here, but I would worry about the level of interest. How many endgame players do you think would commit to something like that? And if they did, what help could they offer, aside from soloing BH and FB runs like so many others do already? Being in the company of a faction full of endgame players does not do much to dispel the notion that you have to get to endgame as quickly as possible. Probably the only way to implement this would be to make a faction full of lowbie alts who quest together (something which I've always been in support of - see also KrittyCat's recent "challenge" thread). But I still doubt you'd get enough interest for it.

I would ask you not to confuse history for dogma, however. We "zealots" you speak of aren't lashing out at dissenters because they dissent, or even because they powerlevel. We're exasperated at them because we had this poll already, and they refuse to admit when they're beat. They're even using the same tired old arguments they used months ago when the debate first heated up. Kudos to you for bringing a level head and a reasonable idea to the table, even if you managed to miss that this wasn't supposed to be the debate (which I can't blame you for, given all the whiners).

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · October 2013

Magna - Harshlands wrote: »

SylenThunder, these are my thoughts on reviving the game. I mean reviving the game the game - you know what I mean, being that you've played since at least early 2009:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1633821

IMHO, that option is too extreme and will completely alienate the majority of players that have joined since the RT update.

If you want that, there are a number of private servers. I'm already working on another build with 1.4.7.

I also see WannaBM is still complaining without giving a reason other than he opposes change for the sake of opposing change.

WnbTank - Archosaur · October 2013

This topic still going? Its not always easy to not mock the ones yelling for restrictions but I`ll try.

The whole concept of FC + hypers = ruined game is completely flawed. There really is no need to even log in game to say that. The real issue, assuming you think its an issue, is FC + hypers = best easy & quick xp in game by large enough margin to make buying xp rooms & spots appealing. Simply buff other ways to level/progress in game and there is no need to restrict anything. Everybody is so much happier when things are buffed over things getting nerfed.

If you on other hand feel like leveling is too easy, thats your problem, game has progressed to the point where all the new content is aimed for endgame and making changes, which make getting to endgame harder are quite counter productive for game management. Not to mention the "month or two" to endgame w/o hypers, if that is true, is still multitudes what it takes in games that compete for players with this game. Grind fest is done, get over it already.

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2013

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

This topic still going? Its not always easy to not mock the ones yelling for restrictions but I`ll try.

The whole concept of FC + hypers = ruined game is completely flawed.

Simply buff other ways to level/progress in game and there is no need to restrict anything.

Quests have been buffed and updated but people still skip them. At-level PV also gives good EXP but nobody does those either. All that simply because FCC is easier, more lazy-friendly and a bit faster. Most people don't even seem to have a clue about how quests are nowadays.
It just makes me believe that people will skip quests and the other things (rebirth order, low level BH, PV etc.) regardless. Though I don't deny the quest rewards could use a little updating but still...there are some nice stuff out there that people skip or are unaware of.

I don't think FCC itself ruined the game completely but it certainly contributed to it when people found out they can abuse it, the same applies to a lot of other things though. You can't really pin-point a reason or a problem, there's a lot of things that contributed to the game's declining. People either accepted and adapted (I did) or quit.

Whilst most of the content we receive is indeed for endgame, seeing as there are still updates for the lower levels once in a while, I don't think the developers don't care about the low level content at all.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · October 2013

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

This topic still going? Its not always easy to not mock the ones yelling for restrictions but I`ll try.

The whole concept of FC + hypers = ruined game is completely flawed. There really is no need to even log in game to say that. The real issue, assuming you think its an issue, is FC + hypers = best easy & quick xp in game by large enough margin to make buying xp rooms & spots appealing. Simply buff other ways to level/progress in game and there is no need to restrict anything. Everybody is so much happier when things are buffed over things getting nerfed.

If you on other hand feel like leveling is too easy, thats your problem, game has progressed to the point where all the new content is aimed for endgame and making changes, which make getting to endgame harder are quite counter productive for game management. Not to mention the "month or two" to endgame w/o hypers, if that is true, is still multitudes what it takes in games that compete for players with this game. Grind fest is done, get over it already.

Can you show me once where I stated that FC + hypers = Ruined game?

If you can, quote it in context.

Asone - Raging Tide · October 2013

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Meaning you have not read the thread. I have given lots of suggestions. I think it is the other way around. I can keep repeating my argumentation, but it is ignored and another one who didnt read the thread like you will come along claiming there is no argumentation.

And regardless, even the lack of alternative ideas does not turn a bad idea into a good one.

This is were you are wrong, I have been following this thread since the day it was made and have been reading...... Every. Single. Page. I don't skip thread pages, if did I would make fool of myself. There were flaws in that thread of yours and in your previous suggestions. (I'll get back to the rest when I've all my coffee I'm not awake yet).

WnbTank - Archosaur · October 2013

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

All that simply because FCC is easier, more lazy-friendly and a bit faster.

Which is pretty exactly what I said. Buffing rewards to the point in PV/other things for lower level content to the point its worth it to do it so to say - Oh, something that makes people run around starting towns as some were heart broken bout that. Finding the sweet spot where ppl do it over FC and not completely over buff the "other options to level" isnt exactly easy either.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Whilst most of the content we receive is indeed for endgame, seeing as there are still updates for the lower levels once in a while, I don't think the developers don't care about the low level content at all.

Of course they care to the point of getting new players. You can still draw conclusions bout the updates, its quite clear they want quicker leveling and easier access to endgame. The "old times" are gone forever, no matter what PWE would restrict in our version, crying bout it wont change anything. The lower level areas can be made more lively but any kind of grind fest some people remiss isnt going to happen and that is something one should remember.

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Can you show me once where I stated that FC + hypers = Ruined game?

If you can, quote it in context.

Oh I dont know, seriously loaded poll and the name of the thread itself? Which as an context gives said image of your opinion regarding matter.

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2013

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Which is pretty exactly what I said. Buffing rewards to the point in PV/other things for lower level content to the point its worth it to do it so to say - Oh, something that makes people run around starting towns as some were heart broken bout that. Finding the sweet spot where ppl do it over FC and not completely over buff the "other options to level" isnt exactly easy either.

I already said they were updated though..and there are some fun quests yet people still skip them. They could become even better? For sure but there's only so much they can buff the quests and content. I don't think there's something that can truly draw people out of the instance.

The "old times" are gone forever, no matter what PWE would restrict in our version, crying bout it wont change anything. The lower level areas can be made more lively but any kind of grind fest some people remiss isnt going to happen and that is something one should remember.

Eh this thread is not about bringing back the old grind fest unless you consider questing (which are pretty fast noawadays) grind fest.

Eh I didn't like the title of the thread either but whatever :P

Miugre - Heavens Tear · October 2013

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Which is pretty exactly what I said. Buffing rewards to the point in PV/other things for lower level content to the point its worth it to do it so to say - Oh, something that makes people run around starting towns as some were heart broken bout that. Finding the sweet spot where ppl do it over FC and not completely over buff the "other options to level" isnt exactly easy either.

Of course they care to the point of getting new players. You can still draw conclusions bout the updates, its quite clear they want quicker leveling and easier access to endgame. The "old times" are gone forever, no matter what PWE would restrict in our version, crying bout it wont change anything. The lower level areas can be made more lively but any kind of grind fest some people remiss isnt going to happen and that is something one should remember.

I'm going to be patient with you here because you're just (re)joining the discussion and 30 pages of this thread alone is certainly a hefty read. But we've already covered this point. The biggest mistake dissenters make here is to assume that anyone for the restrictions is operating entirely off of nostalgia or a wish for the game to return to 2008. Not true in the slightest. On the contrary, although a "classic server" would be an interesting side experiment, we're well aware that wanmei would not go out of their way for such a project. As such, we are working and pushing for change from within the framework that currently exists.

Please, for everyone's sake, don't retread this knee-jerk stupidity argument. It was stale in the first thread from months ago.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Oh I dont know, seriously loaded poll and the name of the thread itself? Which as an context gives said image of your opinion regarding matter.

You're mistaking your personal perception for context. What Sylen asked was for a contextual quote where he said he equated "FC + hypering" with ruining the game. Instead of that, you chose to attack the title and premise of the thread on a general level. You couldn't be farther from the mark here.

Personally, I see Frost powerleveling (which, lest we forget, is distinct from Frost hypering) as one of several ingredients which have caused the game to become ruined as it is. Other ingredients include the staggering levels of gear disparity and the slipshod way the current devs approach new content. But consider: would we be having such a discussion about it if this thread were about removing R9? I'd love to see them remove R9. But you and I both know that such a thread would not merit dozens of pages of discussion on its own in this day and age. You wouldn't have subtle, long-term trolls like Janus or impassioned believers like WannaBM making walls of text. It would just be trolled into oblivion for a couple of pages from every half-wit R9 user and cynical lurker who "totally quit a long time ago guys, really."

No, the reason this topic has inspired at least a hundred pages of discussion over four or five threads is twofold. First, because of the ingredients which ruined the game, this one has a direct, noticeable effect on the lowgame and midgame, which is slowly starving PWI of new players. And secondly... because this is the issue we have the greatest chance of fixing in the short-term. Unlike R9 and the new content which wanmei/PWE have deliberately staked the game's future on, Frost powerleveling was never an intended part of the game (reinforced yes, if indirectly, but never intended), and wanmei/PWE would not lose face by ending it except for pissing off a few vocal powerlevelers.

I wouldn't have titled the thread this way either, as it's a bit generic for my tastes, but I think Sylen was going for something short and eye-catching, which I can understand.

WnbTank - Archosaur · October 2013

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I already said they were updated though..and there are some fun quests yet people still skip them. They could become even better? For sure but there's only so much they can buff the quests and content. I don't think there's something that can truly draw people out of the instance.

Its really bout people being smart and knowing how to get what they want. Buffing lower content to tier of FC isnt needed as FCs costs to the ones who buy them, obviously, and cost is a factor most people will account for. Till there is content as appealing as FC for what people want, they will be in FC till they are forced not to. That is simple principle and it only shows people know what they want.

I still have to say, the poll clearly indicates whoever the OP is, they got no idea what they are talking bout when it comes to who buy FC. I would say suggested restrictions wouldnt change things too much, small minority does FC prior to level 75, not many before level 80 due 10 level difference in squad rule people got going. I will still strongly oppose such restrictions, "month or two" till endgame level per alt is too much imo. I also oppose it for the reason its another cult of restricting something cause they dont like it, I got to deal with enough of that attitude irl, thank you very much.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Personally, I see Frost powerleveling (which, lest we forget, is distinct from Frost hypering) as one of several ingredients which have caused the game to become ruined as it is. Other ingredients include the staggering levels of gear disparity and the slipshod way the current devs approach new content. But consider: would we be having such a discussion about it if this thread were about removing R9? I'd love to see them remove R9. But you and I both know that such a thread would not merit dozens of pages of discussion on its own in this day and age. You wouldn't have subtle, long-term trolls like Janus or impassioned believers like WannaBM making walls of text. It would just be trolled into oblivion for a couple of pages from every half-wit R9 user and cynical lurker who "totally quit a long time ago guys, really."

I'm just going to address the yellow part above:
Removing anything from a ecosystem is bad. You must be either young or you lack the understanding, but even if you don't understand it, it's bad. I'm not here to school/educate anyone so read up if you don't know why. The general idea is that you never take something out of an ecosystem and replace it with something just like that because you can never predict all the consequences of your action.
The proven and working practice is to replace a part of the ecosystem that you want it to be changed with something else, let the ecosystem users get familiar/comfortable with it and then remove the old part.
I understand PV and buffing quests was with the intent of reducing FC influence in leveling. The fact that FC still stands as best option is proof that those attempts are a failure.
PWI should acknowledge that and find a solution. Completely remove Hypers from FC before lvl 100 lets say, or 95, but give unlimited activations / day and x10 xp a mob gives. People would be all over the map questing/killing things and they will still eat hypers which is an income source for PWI.
Removing something blindly and stupidly with the explanation of "replace it later with something" is the biggest mistake than can be done to an ecosystem like this game.

PS: this is my last argument on this subject. To be honest, I don't care. Removing or not FC I will still powerlevel any toon/class I want to have so that does not hurt me one bit. I will mess up the game completely though, and honestly at this point I really want to see it happen because this forum needs a cleanup.

WnbTank - Archosaur · October 2013

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm going to be patient with you here because you're just (re)joining the discussion and 30 pages of this thread alone is certainly a hefty read. But we've already covered this point. The biggest mistake dissenters make here is to assume that anyone for the restrictions is operating entirely off of nostalgia or a wish for the game to return to 2008. Not true in the slightest. On the contrary, although a "classic server" would be an interesting side experiment, we're well aware that wanmei would not go out of their way for such a project. As such, we are working and pushing for change from within the framework that currently exists.

Please, for everyone's sake, don't retread this knee-jerk stupidity argument. It was stale in the first thread from months ago.

I will ask you, why not simply buff other ways and not restrict people if and when you dont want to get back to "old times"? Buffing other content enough and people will be doing other than just FC and they would still retain option to FC - Finding balance can be difficult but I feel like it would be far better option if one could be found. I make mockery of the restrictions for a reason, there are other ways, imo far better ways, to fix the issues some bring up than restrict peoples choices. Its the problem of this day though I suppose, its not just this game but irl too where everything is being restricted for small minority who cant handle something/gets offended by something/think something is the only right way/etc.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You're mistaking your personal perception for context. What Sylen asked was for a contextual quote where he said he equated "FC + hypering" with ruining the game. Instead of that, you chose to attack the title and premise of the thread on a general level. You couldn't be farther from the mark here.

He was the one who set the premise, wasnt he? The premise is set in a way which supports my perception. Whats the problem there? In the first place I nowhere claimed he even said that, lol. If anything, it was attack against premise set on this thread, which I find completely flawed, defending said approach trough my perception of premise is actually the only thing I can do. If somebody decides to take general attack on premise personally, its really not my problem. We could go into long discussion over perceiving context but I dont find any appeal in such discussion.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Personally, I see Frost powerleveling (which, lest we forget, is distinct from Frost hypering) as one of several ingredients which have caused the game to become ruined as it is. Other ingredients include the staggering levels of gear disparity and the slipshod way the current devs approach new content. But consider: would we be having such a discussion about it if this thread were about removing R9? I'd love to see them remove R9. But you and I both know that such a thread would not merit dozens of pages of discussion on its own in this day and age. You wouldn't have subtle, long-term trolls like Janus or impassioned believers like WannaBM making walls of text. It would just be trolled into oblivion for a couple of pages from every half-wit R9 user and cynical lurker who "totally quit a long time ago guys, really."

No, the reason this topic has inspired at least a hundred pages of discussion over four or five threads is twofold. First, because of the ingredients which ruined the game, this one has a direct, noticeable effect on the lowgame and midgame, which is slowly starving PWI of new players. And secondly... because this is the issue we have the greatest chance of fixing in the short-term. Unlike R9 and the new content which wanmei/PWE have deliberately staked the game's future on, Frost powerleveling was never an intended part of the game (reinforced yes, if indirectly, but never intended), and wanmei/PWE would not lose face by ending it except for pissing off a few vocal powerlevelers.

I wouldn't have titled the thread this way either, as it's a bit generic for my tastes, but I think Sylen was going for something short and eye-catching, which I can understand.

Ultimately quick leveling is smart management, when game makes their profit on endgame gear. Current level gap is just completely **** and I would say its by far the biggest single problem in this game. I also agree PWE will never change things to make smaller gear gap.

R9 alone isnt the problem, restricting refines to say +7 and shards to perfects and gear gap wouldnt be that huge. But when you have R9T3 with +12 JoSD everything , its what breaks the set completely. They become immortal to anybody but other R9T3s. - I would even argue lot of R9T3s cant go trough their charms if they are afk with charm & autopot set right.

Ps. But meh, guess I should focus on playing the game for a change. You say anything contrary to restricting FC/hypers and you got several zealots jumping from the bushes they been hiding in to unleash their righteous wrath - If you allow colorful expression.

GlenRoss - Archosaur · October 2013

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

But meh, guess I should focus on playing the game for a change. You say anything contrary to restricting FC/hypers and you got several zealots jumping from the bushes they been hiding in to unleash their righteous wrath - If you allow colorful expression.

Colorful expression is welcome. Gratuitous ad hominem undermines your argument. It's brambled. You do more damage to yourself than to those at whom you throw cheap shots.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · October 2013

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Unless I missed something major, the only "better idea" you've ever offered is more endgame content, which I've already responded to. You then proceeded to say that you believed the game is doomed no matter what happens. Given that viewpoint, what makes you in any way qualified to judge what will save it?

Endgame content is well within reason, completely changing a game and the way people play it is another. In business sense, your idea is terrible.

You seem to care enough to make it worth your while to write all your walls-of-text. Unless you're going to come out with "no really guys, idc, can't you take a joke," like every troll of your caliber does when they have nothing left to argue with (actually, seeing as they usually leave after saying that line, maybe you can save us all some time and just skip to it).

While we're busy making generalizations, every "I've got an idea to save the game" "pie in the sky" poster that comes around believes they know what's best for a game -- this one I'm quoting is no different. I'm not going to address the "caring" nonsense because you pulled that one straight out of your ***.

But while we're on the subject of delusions, maybe we can start with your perception of the in-game population. I never cared to know if you sell heads, by the way, because it made no difference to me on how terrible and evasive your arguments were. But head-seller or not, the percentage of HT's population you hang out with doesn't give you any ground to make the silent majority argment. How much of HT's population have you met? How many of them were powerlevelers? Of those, how many actually thought it was a good idea, rather than going along with it because it's the state of the game right now? Again - you don't have to agree with something to partake in it. Personally, I see just as many people whining about there being no powerleveling squads available as people actually offering it. There are a fair number of people recruiting for midgame activities such as BH51/59 as well. But of course the vast majority of WC is endgame-related. Do you care to ask all the endgame folks whether they support powerleveling or not? I'd be a discussion much like this thread, I'd think.

That would be a hilarious discussion.

See, my rationale is, people vote by the way they play.

So it wouldn't matter at all if people "support" others leveling the way they did, just like people QQing on the forums and not "supporting" others getting the rank gear they cs'd/farmed and complaining about people who are OP. There is no listening to hypocrites.

Holy ****, an actual dissenting argument which isn't all fluff and whining?

Wow, for a minute there I thought you quoted yourself. b:cute

The boldfaced portion is the most interesting here, but I would worry about the level of interest. How many endgame players do you think would commit to something like that? And if they did, what help could they offer, aside from soloing BH and FB runs like so many others do already? Being in the company of a faction full of endgame players does not do much to dispel the notion that you have to get to endgame as quickly as possible. Probably the only way to implement this would be to make a faction full of lowbie alts who quest together (something which I've always been in support of - see also KrittyCat's recent "challenge" thread). But I still doubt you'd get enough interest for it.

Bingo. Which is why you're trying to change the way people play.

It's very simple, if people wanted to play your way, they would. They obviously have the opportunity to.

But in the end, they don't. Game, set, match.

I would ask you not to confuse history for dogma, however. We "zealots" you speak of aren't lashing out at dissenters because they dissent, or even because they powerlevel. We're exasperated at them because we had this poll already, and they refuse to admit when they're beat. They're even using the same tired old arguments they used months ago when the debate first heated up. Kudos to you for bringing a level head and a reasonable idea to the table, even if you managed to miss that this wasn't supposed to be the debate (which I can't blame you for, given all the whiners).

Let's not talk about "winning" and "losing" because you can simply make a poll on a forum more populated with malcontents and non-players than active ones who speak by playing. You're the one trying to restrict others' gameplay because you're losing a battle of controlling the way new players can level. They clearly don't level your way, they don't play upon the conditions you wish them to play under, which is why you want to change it.

The best way to win over people might first to be to realistically understand the situation, and to get rid of the delusions of grandeur you have. Unfortunately, you're still living in this cloud that you know what's best for this game and are somehow trying to valiantly save it by restricting how low players can level/play. Given the populace that clearly powerlevels, hence you trying to change it, you are flying against the wind, not with it.

Nature_God - Sanctuary · October 2013

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Endgame content is well within reason, completely changing a game and the way people play it is another. In business sense, your idea is terrible.

While we're busy making generalizations, every "I've got an idea to save the game" "pie in the sky" poster that comes around believes they know what's best for a game -- this one I'm quoting is no different. I'm not going to address the "caring" nonsense because you pulled that one straight out of your ***.

That would be a hilarious discussion.

See, my rationale is, people vote by the way they play.

So it wouldn't matter at all if people "support" others leveling the way they did, just like people QQing on the forums and not "supporting" others getting the rank gear they cs'd/farmed and complaining about people who are OP. There is no listening to hypocrites.

Wow, for a minute there I thought you quoted yourself. b:cute

Bingo. Which is why you're trying to change the way people play.

It's very simple, if people wanted to play your way, they would. They obviously have the opportunity to.

But in the end, they don't. Game, set, match.

Let's not talk about "winning" and "losing" because you can simply make a poll on a forum more populated with malcontents and non-players than active ones who speak by playing. You're the one trying to restrict others' gameplay because you're losing a battle of controlling the way new players can level. They clearly don't level your way, they don't play upon the conditions you wish them to play under, which is why you want to change it.

The best way to win over people might first to be to realistically understand the situation, and to get rid of the delusions of grandeur you have. Unfortunately, you're still living in this cloud that you know what's best for this game and are somehow trying to valiantly save it by restricting how low players can level/play. Given the populace that clearly powerlevels, hence you trying to change it, you are flying against the wind, not with it.

And you know better what is best for this game?

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2013

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I understand PV and buffing quests was with the intent of reducing FC influence in leveling. The fact that FC still stands as best option is proof that those attempts are a failure.

I don't know though, let's not forget hypers are disabled in PWCN inside FCC.
I don't think the reason they buffed quests and created PV was to draw people out of FCC since they didn't have that issue there to begin with. To me, they did it because the quests were simply outdated and it was about time they get buffed and updated.

The FCC thing may have contributed (feedback from other PW version to Wanmei?) but there is no way to know for sure.

This is solely a "phenomenon" in our version of PW and probably any other that allows hypers inside FCC.

PWI should acknowledge that and find a solution. Completely remove Hypers from FC before lvl 100 lets say, or 95, but give unlimited activations / day and x10 xp a mob gives. People would be all over the map questing/killing things and they will still eat hypers which is an income source for PWI.

Interesting idea, although we already had a small glimpse of what happened when FCC was hyper disabled for a week. I just wish people who argue against it would bring some ideas forth instead of just blindly saying "game is dead" indirectly.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · October 2013

Nature_God - Sanctuary wrote: »

And you know better what is best for this game?

And you do?

That was tough.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't know though, let's not forget hypers are disabled in PWCN inside FCC.
I don't think the reason they buffed quests and created PV was to draw people out of FCC since they didn't have that issue there to begin with. To me, they did it because the quests were simply outdated and it was about time they get buffed and updated.

The FCC thing may have contributed (feedback from other PW version to Wanmei?) but there is no way to know for sure.

This is solely a "phenomenon" in our version of PW and probably any other that allows hypers inside FCC.

Interesting idea, although we already had a small glimpse of what happened when FCC was hyper disabled for a week. I just wish people who argue against it would bring some ideas forth instead of just blindly saying "game is dead" indirectly.

PV was another instance because logically one shouldn't need only one option for leveling, esp with mob XP (counter to rebirth, which is technically quest based XP, and can't be hypered).

As for the ideas, first get to the depths of what's being argued instead of making these odd out-in-left-field paraphrases of what's been iterated.

First, PWI has been out since 2008. It's declining not because of hypers or FF but because other games are far more interesting.. all games die out. Where is the acknowledgement of this? Just fantasy responses that make games run for profit with a horrific short term model survive long term magically.

Second, the active playerbase clearly very little interest in questing. They have that option, they elect not to. That adequately sums up what players want. For those who think PWI should implement their subjectively fun version of a game maybe they should consider making their own server or game?

Third, given what the player base wants, the best place to aim at is retention. Players are retained by content, not by forcing lowbies to quest. Lowbies aren't retained by being forced to quest. Low areas aren't populated by being forced to quest, especially with how quickly quests evidently level people now too.

From what this is, it's the targeting of FF and hypers as a personal style of play that certain players do not like, they have this ideal that stems from when the game was thriving back in 2008 and 2009, most people were low levels, they were questing, PWI had not yet thrown anni packs into the boutique.

When PWI introduced the anni pack in September 2009 that should have thrown out any mindset that this game was meant for long term, further affirmation with hyper stones, dropping mob kill counts in quests/culti, and "super quests" were introduced. So people have known exactly the direction this game has taken for the last 4 years. Pretending one can undo that by targeting FF and hypers as a "first step" (or any "step") is a terrible idea.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · October 2013

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And you do?

That was tough.

PV was another instance because logically one shouldn't need only one option for leveling, esp with mob XP (counter to rebirth, which is technically quest based XP, and can't be hypered).

When you make statements like this keep one thing in mind...
No other sanctioned version has the ability to hyper in FCC that we do.

As for the ideas, first get to the depths of what's being argued instead of making these odd out-in-left-field paraphrases of what's been iterated.

First, PWI has been out since 2008. It's declining not because of hypers or FF but because other games are far more interesting.. all games die out. Where is the acknowledgement of this? Just fantasy responses that make games run for profit with a horrific short term model survive long term magically.

Interestingly enough....
PWI is declining. PW-CN is not.
This can be almost directly attributed to both the power creep, and the fact that we have hypers in FCC.

Second, the active playerbase clearly very little interest in questing. They have that option, they elect not to. That adequately sums up what players want. For those who think PWI should implement their subjectively fun version of a game maybe they should consider making their own server or game?

Give a man a choice, and he will make it....
Option 1, Work hard, invest time, and get the reward.
Option 2, Pay a small fee and get the reward without having to work or wait.

I mean seriously. Look at the attention span of todays kids. It's a no-brainer.

Third, given what the player base wants, the best place to aim at is retention. Players are retained by content, not by forcing lowbies to quest. Lowbies aren't retained by being forced to quest. Low areas aren't populated by being forced to quest, especially with how quickly quests evidently level people now too.

OMG you're SO right with this it's not even funny!!! </sarchasm>
We're losing players because endgame gets boring fast.
We're not retaining new players because of the death of the low level areas, and because of the investment required to remain competitive.

As for "given what the playerbase wants".... I again direct you at the repeatedly mentioned poll that I linked at the beginning that you choose to ignore/dismiss.

From what this is, it's the targeting of FF and hypers as a personal style of play that certain players do not like, they have this ideal that stems from when the game was thriving back in 2008 and 2009, most people were low levels, they were questing, PWI had not yet thrown anni packs into the boutique.

When PWI introduced the anni pack in September 2009 that should have thrown out any mindset that this game was meant for long term, further affirmation with hyper stones, dropping mob kill counts in quests/culti, and "super quests" were introduced. So people have known exactly the direction this game has taken for the last 4 years. Pretending one can undo that by targeting FF and hypers as a "first step" (or any "step") is a terrible idea.

So far your only suggestion to the contrary is that the game is dead/dying/headed to it's grave.

Given that yes, the true downfall to this F2P title was the introduction and explosion of the packs. I will agree with you on that point.

You keep saying that we're seeking this nostalgic return to back in the day when that isn't it at all. If you can't get that out of your thick skull, you don't belong here.

They revamped the rewards on the lowbie quests because we cried after the DQ items were nerfed... both times.
The new quests were most likely created to enhance the lower level gameplay because on the server that the developers code for, they don't have the issue with everyone leveling in FCC.
We have been excluded from participating in events like the world tournament because of the extreme gear imbalance that we have in our version.

If you have some other suggestion for a way to revive the game, feel free to speak up. I would love to hear some honest suggestions. Otherwise, all you're doing is regurgitating the same lame argument that isn't really an argument at all.

Apostasy - Raging Tide · October 2013

Having a game that is more than just very unwelcoming to every single potential new player is all so good for the longevity of every game.

Beyond that, having a game that is without any population in the eyes of those same potential new players is even better, particularly in any MMO (mass media online? meaning lots of ****ing people?b:question supposedly) rpg.

It would actually be better to simply have characters start at 100 then, rather than have people walk into an empty "mmo".

WTF is there to understand? b:surprisedb:beatup

FC + Hypers restricted to 75 would be a damn good start. Period.

WannaBM - Archosaur · October 2013

people wont repopulate low level areas if you stop FC because they dont want to go there.
WTF is there to understand? b:surprisedb:beatup
FC + Hypers restricted to 75 would be a terrible idea. Period

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide · October 2013

Maybe it was different on other servers, but when hypers were disabled for the week, there were a lot of players in the low level areas questing, PV was popular, low BHs were being called for in wc and filled quickly (I know because I played my low level alts during that time and had a blast).

Granted there were a few boo hooing in wc because they were disabled, but most seemed to have adjusted quickly to the change.

Would it revive the game to disable hypers in frost pre 75? As others have stated who knows, I think it will help but its a matter of opinion. However, if something isn't done to attract and retain new players regardless of what it is, the game will die as it already has been doing. If you disagree and think the game is doing fine, you obviously aren't attentive enough to notice the population is getting smaller and smaller.

As someone who loves MMOs and the long journey to endgame, an empty and bleak world isn't an attraction. And as I have stated before, I personally find endgame much more boring and repetitive than low to mid level questing, though again that's a matter of personal opinion. The new endgame content adds maybe a week of "new" before it becomes "old" again. That doesn't bode well for longevity.

Apostasy - Raging Tide · October 2013

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

people wont repopulate low level areas if you stop FC because they dont want to go there.
WTF is there to understand? b:surprisedb:beatup
FC + Hypers restricted to 75 would be a terrible idea. Period

Then we come back to this :

Apostasy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Having a game that is more than just very unwelcoming to every single potential new player is all so good for the longevity of every game.

Beyond that, having a game that is without any population in the eyes of those same potential new players is even better, particularly in any MMO (mass media online? meaning lots of ****ing people?b:question supposedly) rpg.

It would actually be better to simply have characters start at 100 then, rather than have people walk into an empty "mmo".

See the absolute stupidity of what you are saying? No, you probably dont.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide wrote: »

Would it revive the game to disable hypers in frost pre 75? As others have stated who knows, I think it will help but its a matter of opinion. However, if something isn't done to attract and retain new players regardless of what it is, the game will die as it already has been doing. If you disagree and think the game is doing fine, you obviously aren't attentive enough to notice the population is getting smaller and smaller.

1. Restricting FC and Hypers at 75 does NOT revive the game => It simply allows the ABILITY to revive the game.

2. This is NOT a matter of opinion, it is a matter of having seen NUMEROUS MMO RPGS since the 1990's.

3. Something does STILL need to be done to attract new players given said restrictions are implemented... (HOWEVER... and THIS IS a matter of speculation here : word of mouth may actually take at least months to revive the game thereafter just due to this getting implemented)

4. The game is dying quite quickly "as is"... Doing nothing will continue this downward trend.

5. Take note of what is highlighted THIS COLOR in the above quote.

WannaBM - Archosaur · October 2013

peroid !

dont you see the absolute stupidity of what you are saying ?

One last attempt to reason:

So you agree that just closing FC from hypering will not help. It will not help to make people populate the low level areas. It will only agrivate them. You say it could work in combination with other actions like creating something interesting for the existing players to come and welcome the new players in low level areas. right ?

Closing FC hypering can be seen as a "negative" way to influence things. It means forbidding people to play the way they want and trying to force the way people play into another direction against their will.

Those other actions that could be done can be seen as a "positive" way to influence things. Making it interesting for players to be there and hopefully drawing them into a direction out of their own will.

Why do you think you should start with the negative first ?
Why do you so zealously focus on this, and not on the positive ?

Reviving The Game

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