Reviving The Game

ovenusarmanio

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

-snip because my own post is long enough-

To use your own speeding analogy, asking for a cap on FF is like asking for reduced speed near a school. It's not that you want to reduce speeding for everyone in every area and prevent them from doing it entirely. Capping FF would make PV for example the next best option, and that can only be done with other at levels. So chances are pretty darn good for most classes you'll want to grab a couple of people, making mr.low level more likely to be able to get that done. A lot of people will do a few BHs and maybe some quests and a couple of PVs and within a couple of weeks (or 2 days if they no life it) be able to FF again to their heart's content. But at least for that time they were doing the other content, they were more likely to meet and interact with those new players who are quitting because they are alone.

The issue is that the content new players interact with is very, very empty. People have sped by it so fast that many new players have come and gone forever, because there was nobody to play with. Once everyone is 75+, that ceases to be an issue. You aren't low level anymore, and you probably have more or less decided if you are going to stick with this game for a little while. Until you get into PVP, where the gear disparity rears its head but that's another issue.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I am not missing that point.

It is just too simply to think you can solve that by fighting powerleveling. Forcing people to do something (play the early stuff all over again) else than apparently they want to do (powerlevel) can hardly be a good thing. People will find other ways to powerlevel. People will reduce the amount of alts they make. It will reduce the fun they have in the game and thus the game dies faster. Very few people will actually go and populate the low levels.

So let the players do what they want and make it fun to ensure the overal longevity of the game. This includes powerleveling. (as explained in previous post about the pvp aspect)
If you can, make the early game content interesting enough that existing players will want to play it voluntarily. (as i made a little example in previous post considering higher and lower level players doing tasks together)
If that dont work, give new players the ability to level faster too (without already having the alts/funds to powerlevel (which is what PWI is doing)

I think it could be good to exhaust the second of those 3 a bit more before jumping to the last option like PWI is doing. However, you also need to realise that there are many many games around. Many of them newer and more fancy. Therefore, a dwindling population is something you cannot avoid, only slow down. It may be not so stupid to have that limited population all be in the same arena (lvl 100+) instead of attempting to spread them thin.

Ok Doc lets see what would happen to pwi if it went your way. Powerlvling is still a main way of lvling, so there comes maybe a new player who just started. They'll do all the low lvl quests from 1-20. (if they even get that far) Then they reach archosaur city and someone tells em bout hypering in frost which they have no clue what plvling is nor if they have the hypers to use in FF but lets assume that they have some hypers from the free stuff that they get. They powerlvl in frost from 20-70 pending if they get that far in lvling from just one run. So far all they've come to know is that they are following some high lvl in an instance that is foreign to em but they are having some fun cause they are lvling.

Then when and if possible they decide to venture out away from frost for a while to do something else like bh, by that time they are already lvl 70 which is the lvls for 59/69. (assuming that they havent done their cultis too) So all they are left with is maybe 2-3 skills while the rest they havent learned yet due to them not doing their cultis. Plus when they do get into a bh squad, the squad realizes that this new player doesnt have all the necessary skills to be of any use to em. so they either kick em out of squad and find a replacement, (which might be a high lvl) or they dont bother and just do the run with em running behind like they've known cause they've done that sort of thing already in 1 instance, and now they're doing it again with a 2nd instance. Wouldnt that cause that new player to get bored really quickly cause of all the times he/she has had to run behind someone being a crippled player just cause they didnt fit the bill to someone who could hold their own? Not to mention that they might just quit the game while they are still ahead? Or is it against your "personal logic" to keep someone being babied stead of having em learn, experience and get to know themselves.

Killing mobs on your own doesnt accomplish learning your own class less you got someone who you can make friends with so they can teach you how a certain class works. Plus with your statement of how pve doesnt make one player better or worse at their class? not exactly true, killing mobs in a pve environment helps a new player develop their own playstyle, while being in squad with other players helps to show em how their skills relate to the other classes that they squad with. Tell me this smart guy, how does a player find new ways of powerlvling when the only other options are PV and oracles? So i'll give ya this, both PV and oracles start at lvl 30 so how can a new player plvl when both those are fixed on both time and exp amounts. Oracles yes you can have an unlimited amount of em, but each book has a fixed amount so less you want to just do oracles for hrs on end killing the same mini boss 1000x then go ahead but at least you'll be learning bout your toon even if its just small amounts. Then theirs PV, time limited to 1 run per day even with the use of hypers. My point is this: its not bout killing anyones fun, its bout making the game survive alot longer than how ppl like you have put this game on life support just laying their till the game monitor reads flat line.

If you dont want to get this through your thick head then catch this. Players like Sylan, Venus and others are doing what we can to possibly make the game revitalize with new players. But that will only come with time and effort by advertising and making the game itself more thrilling than what it is now. Plvling is what is keeping the game itself close to that flat line which we are trying to revive the game by jump starting the heart of the game.

WannaBM - Archosaur

oVenusArmanio

So you want people to use different forms of powerleveling that involve the new players. Not really repopulating the low level areas, but moving to forms of powerleveling where it is easier for the new players to get into.

Thank you, that makes sence

But it still leaves the empty early areas of course. While pleveling in FC does require high level alts or coins to pay other players to help you, and PV does not, it still is a step for the new player to make and a squad to find in an empty play area before it works. But i think that could be helped with the suggestion i made earlier:

Make things where high level players cooperate with lower levels. Not by 1-shotting some stuff for him, but with new content where both the high and low level player have a tast to challenge them. This to help the new player get into the community. If he cannot find players of his own level, let him then at least intereact with the higher level players. I remember when i first joined this game. I made a psy and i got the seemingly impossible task to get something from the top of the mast of a shipwreck. A high level came along and carried me on his flying mount to the top. I was wondering then why this high level was in low level land and if this what i am suggesting was already in the game.

The other part i suggested was to have a system where you could sign in for instances without having to wait in squad. I dont know yet how it should be implemented exactly, but it could be pretty long term where you have a list of people interested in doing a certain task and you can leave a note suggesting a time to do it. This could be helpfull for the low level players who even in this situation where they plevel together as a team would have a hard time finding a team.

I think if an effort to help them find people with whom to do this alternative of PVing, i can be in favor of closing FC hypering for low levels.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Plus with your statement of how pve doesnt make one player better or worse at their class?

I didnt make that statement anywhere. I do however think that the 'FC noob' statement is way overdone. People can quickly learn their class regardless of plevel and others can do all the quests and still be idiots. Of course, on average, playing makes a player better.

I understand your claim that you want to vitalise the game. But i refuse to agree that you can do so by repopulating the early areas trough stopping people from power leveling. If you want to repopulate the lower level areas, you need to make them interesting for the existing players to go there. I doubt however that this will succeed on a durable basis. You can change things to get some players to do it again, but you'd have to keep changing it every few months for it will get old again.

For me, the fact that the old existing player isnt really going to populate the early areas with this 13th toon he just made is a given. And that is the point i want to keep making here. Please do not try to repopulate low level areas with existing players because most simply wont do it. So then making a new alt would come down to doing 15 minutes of PV per day with some other noobs. That is ok, but i think it should not take more than 2 weeks or so. Maybe make an item that allows you to do PV multiple times per day (like the shroud thingy) so that those in a hurry can still do it a bit faster. For a quick 1-30, i can also apreaciate some solutions, though that is just a matter one afternoon of pain to go trough. That is bearable....But dont expect me to be nice to new players while being forced to go trough this pain.

Nice to see that you also wonder how people are going to find out about the other options. Maybe we can agree then that we need to help them find those.

From this perspective as oVenusArmanio brought it to me, i am interested in changes really. I wonder many days of PV it takes to go from 30 to 75.
I am still sceptical though since it may prove to difficult to fill up a PV squad within reasonable time. So good new systems are really needed for this.

On a side note: I have never been in FC before 75 myself. So i kinda am in a debate that doesnt really affect me since i always Zhen my new alts. Recently however, i saw on WC
"Selling zhen 5m per hour. If you dont want to pay, try to find someone who still CAN do it"
The guy claimed lots of things were changed to make it more difficult but he did not explain any details. Is this true ?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

ok Doc Lets See What Would Happen To Pwi If It Went Your Way. Powerlvling Is Still A Main Way Of Lvling, So There Comes Maybe A New Player Who Just Started. They'll Do All The Low Lvl Quests From 1-20. (if They Even Get That Far) Then They Reach Archosaur City And Someone Tells Em Bout Hypering In Frost Which They Have No Clue What Plvling Is Nor If They Have The Hypers To Use In Ff But Lets Assume That They Have Some Hypers From The Free Stuff That They Get. They Powerlvl In Frost From 20-70 Pending If They Get That Far In Lvling From Just One Run. So Far All They've Come To Know Is That They Are Following Some High Lvl In An Instance That Is Foreign To Em But They Are Having Some Fun Cause They Are Lvling.

Then When And If Possible They Decide To Venture Out Away From Frost For A While To Do Something Else Like Bh, By That Time They Are Already Lvl 70 Which Is The Lvls For 59/69. (assuming That They Havent Done Their Cultis Too) So All They Are Left With Is Maybe 2-3 Skills While The Rest They Havent Learned Yet Due To Them Not Doing Their Cultis. Plus When They Do Get Into A Bh Squad, The Squad Realizes That This New Player Doesnt Have All The Necessary Skills To Be Of Any Use To Em. So They Either Kick Em Out Of Squad And Find A Replacement, (which Might Be A High Lvl) Or They Dont Bother And Just Do The Run With Em Running Behind Like They've Known Cause They've Done That Sort Of Thing Already In 1 Instance, And Now They're Doing It Again With A 2nd Instance. Wouldnt That Cause That New Player To Get Bored Really Quickly Cause Of All The Times He/she Has Had To Run Behind Someone Being A Crippled Player Just Cause They Didnt Fit The Bill To Someone Who Could Hold Their Own? Not To Mention That They Might Just Quit The Game While They Are Still Ahead? Or Is It Against Your "personal Logic" To Keep Someone Being Babied Stead Of Having Em Learn, Experience And Get To Know Themselves.

Killing Mobs On Your Own Doesnt Accomplish Learning Your Own Class Less You Got Someone Who You Can Make Friends With So They Can Teach You How A Certain Class Works. Plus With Your Statement Of How Pve Doesnt Make One Player Better Or Worse At Their Class? Not Exactly True, Killing Mobs In A Pve Environment Helps A New Player Develop Their Own Playstyle, While Being In Squad With Other Players Helps To Show Em How Their Skills Relate To The Other Classes That They Squad With. Tell Me This Smart Guy, How Does A Player Find New Ways Of Powerlvling When The Only Other Options Are Pv And Oracles? So I'll Give Ya This, Both Pv And Oracles Start At Lvl 30 So How Can A New Player Plvl When Both Those Are Fixed On Both Time And Exp Amounts. oracles Yes You Can Have An Unlimited Amount Of Em, But Each Book Has A Fixed Amount So Less You Want To Just Do Oracles For Hrs On End Killing The Same Mini Boss 1000x Then Go Ahead But At Least You'll Be Learning Bout Your Toon Even If Its Just Small Amounts. Then Theirs Pv, Time Limited To 1 Run Per Day Even With The Use Of Hypers. My Point Is This: Its Not Bout Killing Anyones Fun, Its Bout Making The Game Survive Alot Longer Than How Ppl Like You Have Put This Game On Life Support Just Laying Their Till The Game Monitor Reads Flat Line.

If You Dont Want To Get This Through Your Thick Head Then Catch This. Players Like Sylan, Venus And Others Are doing What We Can To Possibly Make The Game Revitalize With New Players. But That Will Only Come With Time And Effort By advertising And Making The Game Itself More Thrilling Than What It Is Now. Plvling Is What Is Keeping The Game Itself Close To That Flat Line Which We Are Trying To Revive The Game By Jump Starting The Heart Of The Game.

The points you're making are so terrible I can only wonder how you manage to convince yourself of what you post.

- First off, to the super sized text, which I almost fell out of my chair laughing at b:chuckle Oracles do NOT teach a person how to play their class, especially where it matters, in dungeons and PVP, any more than hitting heads do.
- Secondly, Sylan, Venus, and "Others", what exactly are they doing? I have no clue besides the posts they make, and if that alone is what you describe as revitalizing the game, you should probably learn a lot more about what goes into game development and publishing before posting stuff like this.
- Advertising is the job of PWE. It isn't the players' job to advertise for the publisher.

So the basic premise, for those who are just joining the conversation, is that hypers and FF MUST be blocked for those under 75 so that they can magically populate the world map and/or low level areas. Oh, and hypers+hyper FF is killing the game, making such a change is the magic bullet that will revitalize the game.

Except, as Venus or whatshisname replied to me, you can level "almost just as fast" by doing quests anyways. So low level areas wouldn't be populated, people would still be at FF leveling their toons because they'd quickly be up to that level already.

So what's left is, this is simply an attack on a play style, which is powerleveling, which the vast majority of players have done since early 2010 -- nearly 4 years, and BTW, before people hypered, in much of 2009 they sat there at Oracle's at Anglers, near Yan the Traitor, near Wraithgate, near the entrance to FB51, and so on, because guess why.. they wanted to reach endgame faster, not sit there and slowly "experience questing" the way you guys are aggressively asserting low leveled players do. So a few random, extremely vocal posters (who are really good at exaggerating both the problems of this game and their solutions, as well as exaggerate how many active players side with them) decide out of the blue to play hero almost 4 years after the supposed "damage" has been done, resurrect discussions that have continuously happened for this amount of time (with this spin of novelty), ignored the players wishes by how they play, and want to force others to play the way they want them to because they believe this is the magic fix to PWI's problems.

This is one of the worst ideas in PWI, and it's not even a new one. It was bad in 2010 and it's bad in 2013, almost 2014.

The issue of revitalizing this game is as follows:

- This version of Perfect world has been around since 2008, other versions since years before. It's in it's 6th year now, and the population has been slowly declining since late 2009/early 2010, with population spikes occurring following major content releases.
- Every MMO has a peak and a slide in population as players logically lose interest in the game, and play other, newer games.
- Decent long term development might help for keeping a game running, but most development is done with short term profits in mind. Clearly this version of Perfect World was not developed to be a long term game, development is almost entirely superficial.
- Therefore PWI is not a long term project, so there is no saving a game from Wanmei itself.
- Ignoring the economics and will of both a company and it's investors is best served for a private server (although the costs of running a server will eventually rear it's head anyways, especially a server that can withstand major DDoS attacks that are common), which may be around after PWI has the plug pulled depending on interest level from the players.
- You can't make a populace suddenly shift the way it plays a game because of nostalgia for how the population played back in 2008 and 2009. That's clearly what this is about, despite the repeated denials, ad hominem attacks, trolling attempts, continuous moderator intervention (deleting posts and/or moving them to lower depths, mainly by the same moderator who agrees with the topic's premise), etc.

This idea sucks. Unless PWE can get it through to their developers to continuously release new content, which is clearly what keeps people playing, and keep their current player base happy (they would obviously NOT be happy with this shoddy re-hashed idea), this game's population will continue sliding. There is no repopulating lower levels of this game who happily (as if they're experiencing a completely new game), slowly, quest around the world map like in the days of yore. It's time to arrive to 2013, soon to be 2014, and step away from 5 years ago. You are not in control of this population, you cannot magically save it, nor can you wield enough influence to populate this game like it once was. The logical thing to do is enjoy the game and population while it lasts, as it is, instead of wasting time trying to make it what it was.

Selak - Dreamweaver

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I dont know if this is directed as a response to me since one of my focus points was a PvP system.

Yes, PvP is a sad thing in PWI. You could call it dead.
The reason i made my suggestion is from observing what keeps people playing games. I am actually a strategy gamer by heart much more than an RPG player. I just notice that stategy games seem to have a much better longevity because there is always fair competition in an ever changing metagame while RPGs are all about farming for top equipment. I think the lack of fair pvp is likely to be the main reason PvP is so dead in this and possibly other RPGs. Therefore, i think it would be a good idea to introduce this aspect of "fair competition with an ever changing metagame" that keeps people playing RTSes into this game.

PS: 30+ might a bit much I bought My first 80286 in the early 90s. Before that i dont think you could really speak of PCs with any games worth observing

The Apple Lisa model of pc I was referring too as my first true pc (had a great flight sim it would run for the time) but not the first programmable machine I worked with, it was a Texas Instruments programmable calculator used in our Engineering department. lol I am older than you think.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Selak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The Apple Lisa model of pc I was referring too as my first true pc (had a great flight sim it would run for the time) but not the first programmable machine I worked with, it was a Texas Instruments programmable calculator used in our Engineering department. lol I am older than you think.

Cool, had to google it. Did you pay 10k $ for it ? b:shocked

Then again, ye if you worked in this field of engineering in that time, i guess you just had to pay 10k for one of the first PCs commercially available

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721

Hmm, one way to stop ppl wanting to reach high levels so quickly might be an all day running PVP-instance that rewards some XP when the round ish over, using level-based system like PV. A certain MMO has a system like that(actually NW instances are based on that system, Kitty thinks) and many players have maxed gear lvl 19 alts they never level to 20 on that game. Taking influence from that system shouldn't be too hard for PWI as there's already many similarities.f:hehe

They could also make a skill that lets one use their enemy as pet similar to one from that game. That's something Kitty's been hoping for PWI to get one day f:weep

GlenRoss - Archosaur

Same arguments different thread. The powerlevelers can't possibly see what they've missed so they argue that they've missed nothing. Most of the players who have actually played the game see the difference and lament the quality of current gamers, gameplay and social interaction.

We race to the end so we can get bored quicker, then we QQ for bigger and better thrills because we skipped the adventure and are entitled to be spoon-fed ever more exciting, less challenging stuff.

The real death of this game? The ceiling. There is one and we are hell-bent on ramming our heads against it as soon as we can.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Oh yes, i did play the game.... 2 times. Ye i know what im missing. It was fun the first time. But i have seen enough of it.

Vinat - Sanctuary

Where is the option for "none of the above"?

I think something that might help is a mentor system. In some other games you actually find a higher level player to be your mentor and you get bonuses for them being online when you are, and they get rewards for helping you. There are also some games that have hi-lvl+lowbie shared quests, where the high lvls NEED the lowbies in the squad to even start or finish the quest.

It promotes interaction between the two groups.

Honestly, I don't think making leveling slower is going to get more new people to stay, even if it injects more players into that lvl range.

I met a NEW to the game person last week. He was lvl 81 and whining about not having coins to buy crabmeat and being unable to even kill mobs because he had no pots and couldnt repair. Low lvl DQ being worth 1 coin makes this worse. And honestly, I do not think the "changes to low lvl quests" are what you seem to think they are. The mob count is reduced, but the exp and spirit reward is pretty much the same, and like always, majority of quests do not give a coin reward.

So essentially you want to make the most difficult and boring part of the game take longer, be more difficult, and more boring, in hopes that it will make more people want to play the game?

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Summing up the arguments now, are we? Very well then. For the uninitated, take heed:

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So the basic premise, for those who are just joining the conversation, is that hypers and FF MUST be blocked for those under 75 so that they can magically populate the world map and/or low level areas. Oh, and hypers+hyper FF is killing the game, making such a change is the magic bullet that will revitalize the game.

Except, as Venus or whatshisname replied to me, you can level "almost just as fast" by doing quests anyways. So low level areas wouldn't be populated, people would still be at FF leveling their toons because they'd quickly be up to that level already.

This is what I presume Sylen meant by saying that ending Frost powerleveling was a "first step." There are a number of good methods for people to level quickly, but there's a fine line you have to draw between shepherding the lowbies through the game and making sure they stick around long enough to interact with each other. In other words, there's probably a "goldilocks zone" which we have to find as a community. But we're not gonna get anywhere with that if a few people are intent on brining the conversation to a grinding halt due to their own agenda.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So what's left is, this is simply an attack on a play style, which is powerleveling, which the vast majority of players have done since early 2010 -- nearly 4 years, and BTW, before people hypered, in much of 2009 they sat there at Oracle's at Anglers, near Yan the Traitor, near Wraithgate, near the entrance to FB51, and so on, because guess why.. they wanted to reach endgame faster, not sit there and slowly "experience questing" the way you guys are aggressively asserting low leveled players do. So a few random, extremely vocal posters (who are really good at exaggerating both the problems of this game and their solutions, as well as exaggerate how many active players side with them) decide out of the blue to play hero almost 4 years after the supposed "damage" has been done, resurrect discussions that have continuously happened for this amount of time (with this spin of novelty), ignored the players wishes by how they play, and want to force others to play the way they want them to because they believe this is the magic fix to PWI's problems.

This is one of the worst ideas in PWI, and it's not even a new one. It was bad in 2010 and it's bad in 2013, almost 2014.

For anyone just joining the conversation: the first boldfaced portion is something that this poster has asserted time and time again, without any proof or backup. Conversely, those of us who are against powerleveling point to two primary proofs:

Exhibit A: The polls Sylen linked in the first post of this thread. While forum polling is far from exact, the sheer quantity of votes presented here reduces the margin of error sharply. A clear majority of 63% voted for at least restricting Frost powerleveling.

Exhibit B: The behavior of the player base during week we didn't have hypering in Frost. While other quick-leveling methods such as Oracles, PV and Zhen were on the rise that week, other, more classic and designer-intended methods such as field questing and low-level BH were just as common. Anyone who visited the questing zones during this week saw firsthand how ending Frost powerleveling results in the recovery of the lowgame and midgame. To put it bluntly, our point was already proven for us - in many cases, by the very population who Janus repeatedly implies would quit without Frost powerleveling.

Readers, look closely: this is a person who will not hesitate to reframe his debate opponents in the worst possible light, regardless of what they say against his position. The second boldfaced statement is a perfect and prominent example. By reframing this issue as a personal rights issue and the Anti-powerleveling camp as an obstacle to those rights, he hopes to paint us with non-existent ulterior motives to invalidate our points.

Unfortunately for Janus, the facts cannot be invalidated. Those who wish to defeat the facts, being fundamentally unable to disprove them, must resort to minimizing those facts and misleading the people who would absorb them and use them to make informed opinions. A careful analysis of Janus's posts will revel exactly these tactics. Any politician would be so proud.

Curiously, the one fact Janus does acknowledge is that the game is dying, although he disagrees that there is no way to save it:

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The issue of revitalizing this game is as follows:

- This version of Perfect world has been around since 2008, other versions since years before. It's in it's 6th year now, and the population has been slowly declining since late 2009/early 2010, with population spikes occurring following major content releases.
- Every MMO has a peak and a slide in population as players logically lose interest in the game, and play other, newer games.
- Decent long term development might help for keeping a game running, but most development is done with short term profits in mind. Clearly this version of Perfect World was not developed to be a long term game, development is almost entirely superficial.
- Therefore PWI is not a long term project, so there is no saving a game from Wanmei itself.
- Ignoring the economics and will of both a company and it's investors is best served for a private server (although the costs of running a server will eventually rear it's head anyways, especially a server that can withstand major DDoS attacks that are common), which may be around after PWI has the plug pulled depending on interest level from the players.
- You can't make a populace suddenly shift the way it plays a game because of nostalgia for how the population played back in 2008 and 2009. That's clearly what this is about, despite the repeated denials, ad hominem attacks, trolling attempts, continuous moderator intervention (deleting posts and/or moving them to lower depths, mainly by the same moderator who agrees with the topic's premise), etc.

Again, for the uninitiated: look carefully at this line of thinking. Janus's entire point here is that PWE/wanmei do not care about the game enough to do what's necessary to revive it. I would almost agree with him here if it didn't sound so much like the million "PWE ONLY CAERS BOUT MONEY LOLOL GREED" threads which have popped up over the years.

Yes, it's true that most free-to-play MMOs are left to die once their initial cash-cow status dries up. This is an entire market - the free-to-play market. And the basic business model therein demands that a game be developed quickly, cheaply, and designed for maximum profit right out the gate.

But here's the rub, folks - PWI was never designed to be free-to-play. It was designed as pay to play for its initial Chinese release... and as such, the amount of time, detail and TLC put into it by the original devs was designed for long-term interest and longevity, not a quick cash grab. The fact that it was corrupted into the free-to-play model by wanmei, and later PWE, has resulted in most of the problems we face today.

But the old content still remains, as does the original design which gave this game so much potential. Nobody in this thread is asking for us to return to the days of grinding for hours on end just to get through the 60s. Nobody thinks that's a good idea. Yet Janus is insistent that blind nostalgia, that 60s grind-fest, is the only force which drives our effort(my friends, this is the reframing tactic at its finest). Rather, it is PWI's potential which we support, that potential which want to save. And wanting a game to reach its potential is not nostalgia, folks - it's actually about the most forward-thinking position you can take.

Will it work? Will it save the game? I don't know - I can't guarantee results. In the end, wanmei's neglect may well cause the death of PWI with or without our intervention. But we who choose to support a measure like this at least want to try to save it. Janus then states:

The logical thing to do is enjoy the game and population while it lasts, as it is, instead of wasting time trying to make it what it was.

...again trying to reframe the anti-powerleveling camp, this time as people who don't enjoy PWI. I think we all enjoy PWI, even in its current form, or we wouldn't be here. We just realize that it could have been so much more... and quite frankly, we have nothing left to lose by trying. That we wish to spend PWI's possible last days fighting for its revival is our business alone, and whether we succeed in ending Frost powerleveling or not, it shouldn't matter that much to someone who already sees the game as dead either way.

So in conclusion, folks... I want you to consider the implications of why someone who believes PWI's death is assured would waste their time arguing its quasi-political issues in the first place, rather than just enjoying the game, as he would have us do. What if we did succeed, and PWI was revived by this? Then Janus and his ilk would have to play a game without powerleveling... and I'm beginning to believe that they would just sooner see the game die than let that happen.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Summing up the arguments now, are we? Very well then. For the uninitated, take heed:


This is what I presume Sylen meant by saying that ending Frost powerleveling was a "first step." There are a number of good methods for people to level quickly, but there's a fine line you have to draw between shepherding the lowbies through the game and making sure they stick around long enough to interact with each other. In other words, there's probably a "goldilocks zone" which we have to find as a community. But we're not gonna get anywhere with that if a few people are intent on brining the conversation to a grinding halt due to their own agenda.


For anyone just joining the conversation: the first boldfaced portion is something that this poster has asserted time and time again, without any proof or backup. Conversely, those of us who are against powerleveling point to two primary proofs:

Exhibit A: The polls Sylen linked in the first post of this thread. While forum polling is far from exact, the sheer quantity of votes presented here reduces the margin of error sharply. A clear majority of 63% voted for at least restricting Frost powerleveling.

Exhibit B: The behavior of the player base during week we didn't have hypering in Frost. While other quick-leveling methods such as Oracles, PV and Zhen were on the rise that week, other, more classic and designer-intended methods such as field questing and low-level BH were just as common. Anyone who visited the questing zones during this week saw firsthand how ending Frost powerleveling results in the recovery of the lowgame and midgame. To put it bluntly, our point was already proven for us - in many cases, by the very population who Janus repeatedly implies would quit without Frost powerleveling.

Readers, look closely: this is a person who will not hesitate to reframe his debate opponents in the worst possible light, regardless of what they say against his position. The second boldfaced statement is a perfect and prominent example. By reframing this issue as a personal rights issue and the Anti-powerleveling camp as an obstacle to those rights, he hopes to paint us with non-existent ulterior motives to invalidate our points.

Unfortunately for Janus, the facts cannot be invalidated. Those who wish to defeat the facts, being fundamentally unable to disprove them, must resort to minimizing those facts and misleading the people who would absorb them and use them to make informed opinions. A careful analysis of Janus's posts will revel exactly these tactics. Any politician would be so proud.

Curiously, the one fact Janus does acknowledge is that the game is dying, although he disagrees that there is no way to save it:

Again, for the uninitiated: look carefully at this line of thinking. Janus's entire point here is that PWE/wanmei do not care about the game enough to do what's necessary to revive it. I would almost agree with him here if it didn't sound so much like the million "PWE ONLY CAERS BOUT MONEY LOLOL GREED" threads which have popped up over the years.

Yes, it's true that most free-to-play MMOs are left to die once their initial cash-cow status dries up. This is an entire market - the free-to-play market. And the basic business model therein demands that a game be developed quickly, cheaply, and designed for maximum profit right out the gate.

But here's the rub, folks - PWI was never designed to be free-to-play. It was designed as pay to play for its initial Chinese release... and as such, the amount of time, detail and TLC put into it by the original devs was designed for long-term interest and longevity, not a quick cash grab. The fact that it was corrupted into the free-to-play model by wanmei, and later PWE, has resulted in most of the problems we face today.

But the old content still remains, as does the original design which gave this game so much potential. Nobody in this thread is asking for us to return to the days of grinding for hours on end just to get through the 60s. Nobody thinks that's a good idea. Yet Janus is insistent that blind nostalgia, that 60s grind-fest, is the only force which drives our effort(my friends, this is the reframing tactic at its finest). Rather, it is PWI's potential which we support, that potential which want to save. And wanting a game to reach its potential is not nostalgia, folks - it's actually about the most forward-thinking position you can take.

Will it work? Will it save the game? I don't know - I can't guarantee results. In the end, wanmei's neglect may well cause the death of PWI with or without our intervention. But we who choose to support a measure like this at least want to try to save it. Janus then states:

...again trying to reframe the anti-powerleveling camp, this time as people who don't enjoy PWI. I think we all enjoy PWI, even in its current form, or we wouldn't be here. We just realize that it could have been so much more... and quite frankly, we have nothing left to lose by trying. That we wish to spend PWI's possible last days fighting for its revival is our business alone, and whether we succeed in ending Frost powerleveling or not, it shouldn't matter that much to someone who already sees the game as dead either way.

So in conclusion, folks... I want you to consider the implications of why someone who believes PWI's death is assured would waste their time arguing its quasi-political issues in the first place, rather than just enjoying the game, as he would have us do. What if we did succeed, and PWI was revived by this? Then Janus and his ilk would have to play a game without powerleveling... and I'm beginning to believe that they would just sooner see the game die than let that happen.

You don't run this game, and MMO's always die out, therefore you wouldn't "succeed". Here Miugre tries to represent Janus as "reframing the debate" at the same time Miugre is stuck in Miugrefantasyland and makes a large wall of text declaring forum polls (the only part not fluff) as the basis for the population agreeing with him (the forums have a substantial population of those who aren't even playing anymore), rather than those actually playing the game. The most unsurprising part of this is he'd figure out something most inconvenient to his argument had he actually went in the game, saw how people played, and realized that people are voting this way.

And as someone who leveled more toons than you without "powerleveling", as well as leveled more toons than you with "powerleveling", I don't really give two ****s what they do with it. Unlike you I simply make one of two decisions with the game -- I play it or I don't. I don't spend years QQing about a game thinking it's the magic fix for things.

I lol'd at "first step" logic, as if people are suddenly going to conform to the subjective way you think they should play. You should spend more time worrying about how you play, find friends who are agreeable, and enjoy the game. Clearly this game has been problematic for you because it doesn't fit into the little box you wish it to be.

Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »

Where is the option for "none of the above"?

I think something that might help is a mentor system. In some other games you actually find a higher level player to be your mentor and you get bonuses for them being online when you are, and they get rewards for helping you. There are also some games that have hi-lvl+lowbie shared quests, where the high lvls NEED the lowbies in the squad to even start or finish the quest.

It promotes interaction between the two groups.

Honestly, I don't think making leveling slower is going to get more new people to stay, even if it injects more players into that lvl range.

I met a NEW to the game person last week. He was lvl 81 and whining about not having coins to buy crabmeat and being unable to even kill mobs because he had no pots and couldnt repair. Low lvl DQ being worth 1 coin makes this worse. And honestly, I do not think the "changes to low lvl quests" are what you seem to think they are. The mob count is reduced, but the exp and spirit reward is pretty much the same, and like always, majority of quests do not give a coin reward.

So essentially you want to make the most difficult and boring part of the game take longer, be more difficult, and more boring, in hopes that it will make more people want to play the game?

The other option(s) aren't there because those who made this debate don't like dissent, which is why at first they tried to tell people to leave the debate who disagreed with them, followed by using the mod they recruited to their cause to remove posts mainly from those who disagree with them. They realized the only way to blow their view up and perhaps get Wanmei's attention is to make them believe a substantial population thinks the way they do. Clearly just from people who post on this forum (most of which are going to be those who are pissed off at the game) there's enough dissent for this terrible idea to substantiate 3-4 more years of ignoring people who can't stand the way others play, have some excessively idealistic version of this game that doesn't match reality, so want to use Wanmei to be their gameplay modification tool for the rest of the playerbase.

Unfortunately some like Annalyse were successful in other areas QQing about chrono quest being in Cube Room 38, making some malcontents believe the more they cry, the more they can change the game (or in this case, players) to do things their way. Before I took 2 years off Miugre was doing this sort of thing, and after coming back, he's still doing it. Some never learn.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You don't run this game, and MMO's always die out, therefore you wouldn't "succeed". Here Miugre tries to represent Janus as "reframing the debate" at the same time Miugre is stuck in Miugrefantasyland and makes a large wall of text declaring forum polls (the only part not fluff) as the basis for the population agreeing with him (the forums have a substantial population of those who aren't even playing anymore), rather than those actually playing the game. The most unsurprising part of this is he'd figure out something most inconvenient to his argument had he actually went in the game, saw how people played, and realized that people are voting this way.

And as someone who leveled more toons than you without "powerleveling", as well as leveled more toons than you with "powerleveling", I don't really give two ****s what they do with it. Unlike you I simply make one of two decisions with the game -- I play it or I don't. I don't spend years QQing about a game thinking it's the magic fix for things.

I lol'd at "first step" logic, as if people are suddenly going to conform to the subjective way you think they should play. You should spend more time worrying about how you play, find friends who are agreeable, and enjoy the game. Clearly this game has been problematic for you because it doesn't fit into the little box you wish it to be.

You know as well as I do that a poll with 1800 votes is more than you'd ever get polling world chat for the same amount of time. Hence why I said the margin of error was reduced sharply. Not surprisingly, you ignored this, making this post as if it had never been said.

I said in my last post that anyone who's still here enjoys the game. I'm no exception to that. You ignored this, too.

I also said that you have nothing to back yourself up on your "vast majority" claim. Ignored, and then you repeated the same claim.

I'm glad that you seem to have proved yourself more than happy to ignore the message as long as you can make fun of the messenger(s), but sadly this particular messenger isn't fazed by personal attacks... as long as they don't derail the thread. Interestingly, I offered to call that bluff in my PM to you, which you returned about as flippantly as I expected. You're really just in this for the spectacle, aren't you?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You know as well as I do that a poll with 1800 votes is more than you'd ever get polling world chat for the same amount of time. Hence why I said the margin of error was reduced sharply. Not surprisingly, you ignored this, making this post as if it had never been said.

I said in my last post that anyone who's still here enjoys the game. I'm no exception to that. You ignored this, too.

If by actually in the game, that's somewhat true.. if you mean on the forums, dead wrong.

I also said that you have nothing to back yourself up on your "vast majority" claim. Ignored, and then you repeated the same claim.

If you like polls, poll people in game, or better yet, make a powerlevel squad and see how many join you. Then, go ahead and make a "questing" squad. There are ways to get answers if you want them, but you won't bother because you and I both know you won't get the answers convenient for your argument.

I'm glad that you seem to have proved yourself more than happy to ignore the message as long as you can make fun of the messenger(s), but sadly this particular messenger isn't fazed by personal attacks... as long as they don't derail the thread. Interestingly, I offered to call that bluff in my PM to you, which you returned about as flippantly as I expected. You're really just in this for the spectacle, aren't you?

I don't debate forum topics in PM. Never have, never will.

And I, like the many others that have posted here (except they've either been ignored or told not to post because they aren't supplementing OP's argument), don't like to be told how to play, especially given this questing fetish is clearly not something desired by the playing populace. This is your complaint, btw -- that the population doesn't want to quest and prefers to hyper powerlevel but you want to make them do something else. IF they did prefer your way, they would, because they most certainly have the option to. Yet you think forum polls will paint a different picture.. okay there, guy. You can polish a **** as much as you like, it's still a piece of ****.

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Leave the game the way it is, don't try to **** it even more b:sweat

VKnightV - Lost City

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You don't run this game, and MMO's always die out, therefore you wouldn't "succeed". Here Miugre tries to represent Janus as "reframing the debate" at the same time Miugre is stuck in Miugrefantasyland and makes a large wall of text declaring forum polls (the only part not fluff) as the basis for the population agreeing with him (the forums have a substantial population of those who aren't even playing anymore), rather than those actually playing the game. The most unsurprising part of this is he'd figure out something most inconvenient to his argument had he actually went in the game, saw how people played, and realized that people are voting this way.

And as someone who leveled more toons than you without "powerleveling", as well as leveled more toons than you with "powerleveling", I don't really give two ****s what they do with it. Unlike you I simply make one of two decisions with the game -- I play it or I don't. I don't spend years QQing about a game thinking it's the magic fix for things.

I lol'd at "first step" logic, as if people are suddenly going to conform to the subjective way you think they should play. You should spend more time worrying about how you play, find friends who are agreeable, and enjoy the game. Clearly this game has been problematic for you because it doesn't fit into the little box you wish it to be.


The other option(s) aren't there because those who made this debate don't like dissent, which is why at first they tried to tell people to leave the debate who disagreed with them, followed by using the mod they recruited to their cause to remove posts mainly from those who disagree with them. They realized the only way to blow their view up and perhaps get Wanmei's attention is to make them believe a substantial population thinks the way they do. Clearly just from people who post on this forum (most of which are going to be those who are pissed off at the game) there's enough dissent for this terrible idea to substantiate 3-4 more years of ignoring people who can't stand the way others play, have some excessively idealistic version of this game that doesn't match reality, so want to use Wanmei to be their gameplay modification tool for the rest of the playerbase.

Unfortunately some like Annalyse were successful in other areas QQing about chrono quest being in Cube Room 38, making some malcontents believe the more they cry, the more they can change the game (or in this case, players) to do things their way. Before I took 2 years off Miugre was doing this sort of thing, and after coming back, he's still doing it. Some never learn.

who cares how many toon you lv to 100+ as far as i remember there no benefit in lving more then one toon to 100+.

and i dare even say ppl who lv loads of toons to 100+ forget what made them love said class.

so again dont ever say how many toons you lved in your time cos it mean nothing

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

who cares how many toon you lv to 100+ as far as i remember there no benefit in lving more then one toon to 100+.

and i dare even say ppl who lv loads of toons to 100+ forget what made them love said class.

so again dont ever say how many toons you lved in your time cos it mean nothing

Try and follow the conversation next time before making such an uninformed, irrelevant statement.

Oh and hi mods. b:bye

Apostasy - Raging Tide

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I see a few things that could help revive this game:

1) To keep existing players more interested in the game and thus increase allover morale, give them a fair field of PvP where they play against equally matched players. A pvp ladder system like is used in many strategy games would probably work well. People would still be encouraged to increase their gear so they can rise to higher levels on the ladder, but they would be fighting interesting pvp meanwhile. Open 24/7. Provide free apoth and charm that can only be used within this instance or system. This is practice ground, not a measurement of who spends the most. TW/NW are where you bring your practice to fruit.

Yeah, I play that game also. Whereas this is a good idea, this will only be directed toward those people already in the game... Issues to consider still involves the fact that THIS technically already exists in Open World PK. People choose to not play fair though. Myself in PK, I will kill someone once that is below me initially, then look over their gears. If I see they aint up to snuff gearwise / levelwise, I pm them that I wont attack them again unless they attack first. They make their decisions at that point. The majority of whom PK are R9rr+omgtothehiltjosd&deitiedoallhell and dont give a rats hind quarters who they prey on in most cases, insult to injury comes their trash talking afterwards (as if they dont have R9rr+omgtothehiltjosd&deitiedoallhell)... The way to maybe do such an instance, based on how it is done in that other game, is give everyone the same gear sets within that instance... yeah, that will go well with the R9rr's b:chuckle So this point is really nul and void, as it exists and/or there is no way the R9rr+s will have that (PWI's heaviest cashshopping customers)

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Not an exclusive list, just some ideas but foremostly the first one i think is important. In its current state, the game leads to good pvp for only the top few. The rest will at some point probably drop out and either give up on their pvp ambitions or the game all together. Most players like me just dont care about PvP, sure you go to NW sometime to get killed a bunch and gain some tokens. Selling your body for 2 hours of abuse is pretty much it.
While this system of PvP might slightly reduce the incentive to upgrade (trough CSing) towards endgame, it will also give people much less incentive to give up on that idea all together. Thus i think it could lead to a bigger player population from whom a smaller percentage may be CSing, but a bigger number all over. Much more healthy for the game because making a game for CSers only is doomed to fail. CSers dont want to have their private 10 man parties on an otherwise dead game.
Option 1 would as a by product also provide the developers with golden information on which they can base their balancing efforts.

I find it amusing you should contradict yourself here... From "reviving the game" to "most players dont do THIS, right here, that I am proposing as a way to revive the game, but still stated as important" b:question

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

2) To attrackt new players, give mods **** SS powers and let them delete all the QQ from these forums that scare people away. (Of course this is not serious. I would hope the QQers could be a little smarter themselves than complaining on a forum that the game sucks because it is dying and not getting any new players.... Oh the irony....)

The real irony here is... This is also nul and void on the fact that how many players even look at the forums of a game while playing it? How many before playing it? All the QQ on the forums really has nearly no effect whatsoever on new players. So far you are batting 0.

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

3) Maybe make more some different forms of PvE. As it is, PvE is rather static. You do an instance 100 times, and its 100 times pretty much the same. It is almost exclusively in the form of group of players vs AI mobs/bosses. Maybe more things could be implemented where players compete in different ways that can keep it interesting trough different skill/eqiupment levels and that could be more different from one time to the next because of choises other players make. For this i think about the player made maps you find in strategy games like the one that has brought forth League of Legends. Options are endless.

Hmm... "As it is, PvE is rather static. You do an instance 100 times, and its 100 times pretty much the same"... sounds familiar to me... um, FC much? (on the low end) and on the high end, we have what we have so far... the problem is with so much world to cover at end game (and this is really where you are talking about in this point), our choices are grind "solo" mobs (too easy and too little reward) or hit dungeons (anything good takes groups to hit which can takes hours to find)... Hence why so many people sit around and just wc and bs for so long while in game...

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

4) Give high level players quests where they get rewarded to do something to help lower level players. Not per se as it is: help them kill a boss that the lower level cant find a squad to for, but things specifically designed to need both the high and the low level players make their imput. While your at it, make a squad finding feature where people interested in doing a certain instance or task can sign up to this while you keep doing something different. When enough people have signed up, you can contact to meet up. All without the need of being in a squad with them all the time and someone WCing forever.

This is the first good constructive idea you have here... in past games I have played it is called a "mentoring system"... The higher level "mentors down" to the same level as whom they are mentoring... Given some series of quests where this would be necessary for higher levels to have quests demanding that they mentor a lowbie to complete for their own gain (i think rewards of xps, spirit and toward the meridian system would work well here, thus maybe pills that can be used or sold... to keep it within reason, make it where you can choose from all the dungeons through up to eden to mentor down to for 100+ characters as another daily), would help both the mentor and the mentored. This would also help to repopulate the lower level quests/dungeons/world... IF you can get people out of FC. See, that is irony b:chuckle

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I think it is dilusional to think that fighting powerleveling is going to help revive the game. On the contrary. Forcing people to do what they dont want to do will kill the game faster. Power leveling is part of aging games for a reason.

Hmm... Do I really need to say a word at this point? Based on your own words and my little addition to it... what is there for me to say unless I am just to look to batter you up some more?

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I am not missing that point.

It is just too simply to think you can solve that by fighting powerleveling. Forcing people to do something (play the early stuff all over again) else than apparently they want to do (powerlevel) can hardly be a good thing. People will find other ways to powerlevel. People will reduce the amount of alts they make. It will reduce the fun they have in the game and thus the game dies faster. Very few people will actually go and populate the low levels.

So let the players do what they want and make it fun to ensure the overal longevity of the game. This includes powerleveling. (as explained in previous post about the pvp aspect)
If you can, make the early game content interesting enough that existing players will want to play it voluntarily. (as i made a little example in previous post considering higher and lower level players doing tasks together)
If that dont work, give new players the ability to level faster too (without already having the alts/funds to powerlevel (which is what PWI is doing)

I think it could be good to exhaust the second of those 3 a bit more before jumping to the last option like PWI is doing. However, you also need to realise that there are many many games around. Many of them newer and more fancy. Therefore, a dwindling population is something you cannot avoid, only slow down. It may be not so stupid to have that limited population all be in the same arena (lvl 100+) instead of attempting to spread them thin.

"People will find other ways to powerlevel." Level 75 Cap Hypers... problem solved. b:bye

PS. And to add to what was also stated about the game given one does actually play through it the way it was intended to be played. DQ coin values... BAD. And as you level just really gets worse and worse. A player should not have to do coin quests such as jolly jones separately of xps quests... A player should be able to simply grind creatures and feel like that is an alternative if they so choose to do so, for Xps, spirit and loot value. PWE needs to start thinking about how to make PWI a game worth playing... A game that feels like it is worth playing... All I have seen more and more over the years of waiting for that, is PWE getting greedier and greedier... It feels like we are getting milked...

I'd bet my left and right one that some fail players with lots of money are whom actually are behind PWE/PWI... I'd bet my a$$ to a cellmate that those players decided to make a game where their player base will more than pay for their game, while they themselves can feel like pro l33t players. It would all make too much sense all of a sudden if this is true.

WannaBM - Archosaur

If you like polls, poll people in game, or better yet, make a powerlevel squad and see how many join you. Then, go ahead and make a "questing" squad.

This. I cant dispute the poll results. But it is remarkable how different they are from reality.

"Exhibit B" was of course just laughable.

Liveena - Heavens Tear

That's the sad part.

I know someone who is new to the game, and he was questing and doing some other stuff. Unfortunately, some of the feature/quest thats looks interesting to him (dragon quest, tiger badge, etc) is kinda broken an doesn't gave good reward. After listening to wc several times, he try to buy head and private plvl in ff, in which he didn't manage to get a plvl squad in several days, and now he quit since he found game is "boring".

I also know someone who has been literally living in FF/FCC, either by lvlng, or selling BR or heads and he did this the entire year. When no one is buying he just said game is boring and went afk in ff/fcc b:surrender.

I guess there are several kind of player out there, but I still think that people who keep doing ff/fcc will never grow outside it. b:surrender

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

I think I can understand that guy who gets bored of the game when he tries to sell head and nobody buys. The only instance I enjoy anymore is FWS, partly because I want to make unbound weapons and get my refines up. Also partly because it's just.... Fun.

I actually laughed when a cleric was so bored of doing the fire pav over and over, she asked for a different pav... I said ok, take my water pav lol. She ended up having a fun time because it became challenging and out of the ordinary. She also got purged.

OFate - Heavens Tear

Not sure what your issue with Hypering is..

I started when PWI came out - and I played another version prior. I can honestly say that I have know persons that have played well over a year > and still sucked.

opkossy

OFate - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not sure what your issue with Hypering is..

I started when PWI came out - and I played another version prior. I can honestly say that I have know persons that have played well over a year > and still sucked.

The thread's issue isn't hypering or frost in and of itself.

It's the fact that, when combined, you can basically skip all the early game content with ease making the low level zones completely empty and alienating most new players off the bat.

What's being asked for is a small step in the right direction: namely restricting Frost to only those above level 75 (since that's when you first get quests that involve the place) much like how several other instances have their own form of limits to them.

This way, those who are below 75 will end up using the content provided for them and make at least the place seem a bit less deserted for potential new players. However, once you hit 75, you'll still be free to hyper to your heart's content.

And since getting to 75 is not difficult or time-consuming by any means to those who really want to rush through it, it really wouldn't hurt anyone except those who want to level an alt purely through buying heads and the people who sell to that type.


Granted, there have been other good suggestions in here and this would not solve all the problems we currently have in that area. However it is what the focus of this thread was and would be a nice step towards trying to repair one of the problems we have.

Malei - Sanctuary

I'll try to keep my reasoning for choosing the First Option simple:

I participated in the poll with new players in mind - thus thinking for the future of the game. I also participated understanding that while this situation will not be the do all/end all fix to the problem with population in the game, it will be a healthy start towards a revitalization campaign that could - possibly - even prepare PWI into moving into a better, and more updated, version if they so chose to do. But if they do not, it would still be a step in the right direction to try and keep their game thriving.

Current players, thus, doesn't occur to me when it comes to this poll - simply because they are already PWI's customers. They are already playing the game. Regardless of how many alts ran, how many years played, this isn't geared towards them in any way.

New players, however, will not join the game with Frost in mind. They won't come to the game thinking about power-leveling or understanding the mechanics behind it. Genuine new players - like we all once were - will probably not even be interested in speeding through their lower levels because of the various things PWI has to offer within their content lower level. Exploring the world, following the [ easy ] quest lines, collecting mats to upgrade crafting, coming together to play the lower dungeons, having enough spirit/exp/money for that next level, skill, gear piece - a new player would have their time completely filled from levels 1-75 with all of the choices out there. And trust me, they're there.

Telling new players that their only option is to get to end game and then the fun starts is a downright lie. Most of us at 100+ can agree that end game is:

1) Doing BHs
2) Doing WS or some other instance to farm
3) Doing Morai [ more faming ]
4) Doing BQs [ if you're in a base ]
5) Strangling ourselves with boredom/rinse and repeat on an alt.
6) PK

We beg for content for end-game all of the time to prevent this pattern to happen - it comes - we tweak around it for a bit - we go right back into doing the same thing. The journey towards your goal is what makes playing this game worth it. Not endless, repetitive grinding. Not endless, repetitive farming. Not endless, repetitive instances. But playing with each other - good or bad - and exploring the game overall. We older players were not denied this journey as new players, and thus, new players should not have to be forced to bypass those opportunities via power leveling just to get to an endless, repetitive end-game.

I know some people will say the fun for them is in PvP. The fun for them is in 100+ because they're not weaker any longer/feel they have the opportunity to do more. But this poll is about coming up with a way that our new players can see the game for how it was when we, too, were new. When we didn't give a **** about Frost. Alive and thriving and squading with each other and joining factions and kill-stealing and open map PK and everything at various levels. I may be nostalgic - but it is those memories for me that made this game worthy to play in my eyes and worthy to save. I'm not asking to revert anything back - I'm asking to give new players a chance to see a thriving game.

I chose restriction at 75, the first option. If the new player wants to hyper grind on the map, hell, let them. Let them squad with each other and zhen their hearts out. Let them hyper in PV and learn squad dynamics. Let them play in the new quests and do BHs and realize that exp is thrown at them regardless. But do not let them believe that one instance is the sole thing they need to get a great experience from this game. By the time they are 75, they will be ready to challenge Frost [ which is challenging at those levels ] and can fall in love with it or choose to opt out if they prefer other methods.

Like someone said before, every other instance holds level brackets to where player benefits/ability scale. [ the FBs/BHs, Phoenix Valley, Lunar and TT. ] Frost being an open field is non-sensible in the first place.

This is my opinion, and I won't participate in arguing it down simply because I've already made my decision based off of what I believe would help the newer players to the game. I don't care about someone wanting to argue about 'letting people do what they want' or any other attempts at strife. I've already voted in the poll, and I'm one of the people who do believe that this game can be saved.

krisnda

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'll try to keep my reasoning for choosing the First Option simple:

I participated in the poll with new players in mind - thus thinking for the future of the game. I also participated understanding that while this situation will not be the do all/end all fix to the problem with population in the game, it will be a healthy start towards a revitalization campaign that could - possibly - even prepare PWI into moving into a better, and more updated, version if they so chose to do. But if they do not, it would still be a step in the right direction to try and keep their game thriving.

Current players, thus, doesn't occur to me when it comes to this poll - simply because they are already PWI's customers. They are already playing the game. Regardless of how many alts ran, how many years played, this isn't geared towards them in any way.

New players, however, will not join the game with Frost in mind. They won't come to the game thinking about power-leveling or understanding the mechanics behind it. Genuine new players - like we all once were - will probably not even be interested in speeding through their lower levels because of the various things PWI has to offer within their content lower level. Exploring the world, following the [ easy ] quest lines, collecting mats to upgrade crafting, coming together to play the lower dungeons, having enough spirit/exp/money for that next level, skill, gear piece - a new player would have their time completely filled from levels 1-75 with all of the choices out there. And trust me, they're there.

Telling new players that their only option is to get to end game and then the fun starts is a downright lie. Most of us at 100+ can agree that end game is:

1) Doing BHs
2) Doing WS or some other instance to farm
3) Doing Morai [ more faming ]
4) Doing BQs [ if you're in a base ]
5) Strangling ourselves with boredom/rinse and repeat on an alt.
6) PK

We beg for content for end-game all of the time to prevent this pattern to happen - it comes - we tweak around it for a bit - we go right back into doing the same thing. The journey towards your goal is what makes playing this game worth it. Not endless, repetitive grinding. Not endless, repetitive farming. Not endless, repetitive instances. But playing with each other - good or bad - and exploring the game overall. We older players were not denied this journey as new players, and thus, new players should not have to be forced to bypass those opportunities via power leveling just to get to an endless, repetitive end-game.

I know some people will say the fun for them is in PvP. The fun for them is in 100+ because they're not weaker any longer/feel they have the opportunity to do more. But this poll is about coming up with a way that our new players can see the game for how it was when we, too, were new. When we didn't give a **** about Frost. Alive and thriving and squading with each other and joining factions and kill-stealing and open map PK and everything at various levels. I may be nostalgic - but it is those memories for me that made this game worthy to play in my eyes and worthy to save. I'm not asking to revert anything back - I'm asking to give new players a chance to see a thriving game.

I chose restriction at 75, the first option. If the new player wants to hyper grind on the map, hell, let them. Let them squad with each other and zhen their hearts out. Let them hyper in PV and learn squad dynamics. Let them play in the new quests and do BHs and realize that exp is thrown at them regardless. But do not let them believe that one instance is the sole thing they need to get a great experience from this game. By the time they are 75, they will be ready to challenge Frost [ which is challenging at those levels ] and can fall in love with it or choose to opt out if they prefer other methods.

Like someone said before, every other instance holds level brackets to where player benefits/ability scale. [ the FBs/BHs, Phoenix Valley, Lunar and TT. ] Frost being an open field is non-sensible in the first place.

This is my opinion, and I won't participate in arguing it down simply because I've already made my decision based off of what I believe would help the newer players to the game. I don't care about someone wanting to argue about 'letting people do what they want' or any other attempts at strife. I've already voted in the poll, and I'm one of the people who do believe that this game can be saved.

Just quoting this for truth. This is what the thread is mainly about.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

Krisnda wrote: »

Just quoting this for truth. This is what the thread is mainly about.

Agreed. 100+ to me is the boring rinse and repeat grind. And as for looking forward to PvP, with the mindless, moronic, verbose, egotistical, whining that goes on and on in WC between the holier than thou elitist button pushing prepubescent kids when they squabble like three year olds fighting in a candy store, and their fawning clueless cheerleader groupies looking for handouts from johns like a street corner callgirl, ummm no thanks. I prefer to stick to PvE.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Malei - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'll try to keep my reasoning for choosing the First Option simple:

I participated in the poll with new players in mind - thus thinking for the future of the game. I also participated understanding that while this situation will not be the do all/end all fix to the problem with population in the game, it will be a healthy start towards a revitalization campaign that could - possibly - even prepare PWI into moving into a better, and more updated, version if they so chose to do. But if they do not, it would still be a step in the right direction to try and keep their game thriving.

~snip~

Krisnda wrote: »

Just quoting this for truth. This is what the thread is mainly about.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide wrote: »

Agreed. 100+ to me is the boring rinse and repeat grind. And as for looking forward to PvP, with the mindless, moronic, verbose, egotistical, whining that goes on and on in WC between the holier than thou elitist button pushing prepubescent kids when they squabble like three year olds fighting in a candy store, and their fawning clueless cheerleader groupies looking for handouts from johns like a street corner callgirl, ummm no thanks. I prefer to stick to PvE.

Yes, this is exactly what the purpose of this is. It's not at all about killing Frost, it's not about stopping hyper-baby noobs.

What's really sad is that the very few people that have been so loud against it can't seem to grasp this. Or that this is merely a small step in the overall plan. (And TBH, it really is very few people, they've just made themselves seem bigger by posting walls and walls of text, nost of which are either out of context, or completely unrelated.)

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »

I met a NEW to the game person last week. He was lvl 81 and whining about not having coins to buy crabmeat and being unable to even kill mobs because he had no pots and couldnt repair. Low lvl DQ being worth 1 coin makes this worse. And honestly, I do not think the "changes to low lvl quests" are what you seem to think they are. The mob count is reduced, but the exp and spirit reward is pretty much the same, and like always, majority of quests do not give a coin reward.

So essentially you want to make the most difficult and boring part of the game take longer, be more difficult, and more boring, in hopes that it will make more people want to play the game?

I guess the new player hadn't checked out Jolly Jones. My mystic is sitting on 45 mil because running those daily in the 70s levels is extremely profitable, and good in the earlier levels also. Also.... how would allowing powerlevelling have helped out this new player? He'd definitely have no money for pots/anything if he skipped all of the beginning content.

The quests are VERY different now. I was so ticked off about the worthless DQ thing that I made a character just to see how it would go, fully expecting to prove that it made a huge difference without them. I was wrong. The quests have been vastly upgraded and through them I had enough money for skills and gear. Then when I started the Jolly Jones quests (which I didn't even start when I reached the right level; I wish I had!) the money was pouring in. And the experience from quests alone was insane. I specifically banked every exp item I received and went only on quests, and even fed my genie experience once or twice because quests were so backlogged as I levelled too fast. I didn't need to do BHs until the 60s. And of course nowadays they give out Dreamchaser packs like candy so your weapons and armor are covered until 60+, and free charms until level 60 (?) so you can save all your pots for later on, and pile up all the free charms from stash and quests too for later levels. The only difficult and boring part of the game now is 80+, where they haven't revamped the quests to be worth the time so there is nothing to do but BH.

I think the biggest problem is actually communication. I'm not sure if JJ pops up in available quests, but I know things like Divine Order quests and Lucid doesn't, and a lot of people never learn about these things (and divine orders are great for free pots). A new player coming in might not know about Jolly Jones rewards, or other beneficial quests, not to mention they wouldn't know about Dreamchaser packs unless they used forums/FB. I think there is a popup about the free charms but nothing else.

I might have to make a second new char, use all the free exp items and do every new quest available (like seasonal ones I skipped) and BH daily, and see how fast levelling is that way. It must be insane considering how fast I levelled without that.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

OPKossy wrote: »

The thread's issue isn't hypering or frost in and of itself.

It's the fact that, when combined, you can basically skip all the early game content with ease making the low level zones completely empty and alienating most new players off the bat.

What's being asked for is a small step in the right direction: namely restricting Frost to only those above level 75 (since that's when you first get quests that involve the place) much like how several other instances have their own form of limits to them.

This way, those who are below 75 will end up using the content provided for them and make at least the place seem a bit less deserted for potential new players. However, once you hit 75, you'll still be free to hyper to your heart's content.

And since getting to 75 is not difficult or time-consuming by any means to those who really want to rush through it, it really wouldn't hurt anyone except those who want to level an alt purely through buying heads and the people who sell to that type.


Granted, there have been other good suggestions in here and this would not solve all the problems we currently have in that area. However it is what the focus of this thread was and would be a nice step towards trying to repair one of the problems we have.

Despite your subjective beliefs about who it hurts, limiting people's choices, especially when this is how the vast majority of the populace have leveled since 2010, does in fact hurt them. Those who don't want to skip content don't have to. Yet the overwhelming majority of the population does anyways, which they did with zhen parties, which they did with oracles, and then with FF hyper powerleveling, which shows exactly what they want, which is why you're complaining about it, and want to change it.

And when 90% of the topic is complaining about powerlevels, which are done in FF, and hypers, which are mainly used in FF, and low levels being in FF, which is about FF.. well, guess what, this is mainly about FF. The suggestion that it isn't is almost as comical as it not being about nostalgia. You guys are really bad at marketing this as something else when people can plainly see what it is.