Reviving The Game

Eoria - Harshlands

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Look at it objectively.

Can you honestly state why you got bored by level 12?

Because I have done this same type of quest so many times over. The only things that changed were less mobs needed and more exp/gold given. I don't see how this is proper incentive to go back and re-do all the old quests.

opkossy

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

What assumption. I too understand the nostalgia and it isnt long ago that i made a new toon with the intention to really play it.

I made it to level 12 before i was bored ****less with it and went back to TT farming on my main because yes that is more fun to me.

What was said above.

And as I said basically none of the higher level population gives it a chance. Level 12 for someone who knows what they're doing is what? 10 minutes at most? You really expect me to believe that you couldn't last 10 minutes with the revamped content in the lower levels before getting tired of it and think I'm going to say you gave it a chance or looked at it objectively? Especially among all the people who went back and started new characters expecting completely to HATE how things are down there now and instead finding out that it's much better than they thought?

Contrary to how you (and mostly Janus) seem to think, most of us are not blinded by nostalgia in any way. While I have my endgame characters that can do the usual cycle of 100+ farming, I also have lower level alts all over the place experiencing the content and going through what the new and lower levels have to deal with.

Like I, and others, have said. Those who really want to powerlevel that desperately from level 1 will still have their own ways to do so. However at least the pressure to rush to 100 to be bored would be alleviated for the newer players due to them having... actual people around to interact with at their levels. And let's be honest, getting new players is vital to any game's life... but new players really won't give a **** about rushing to endgame because they'll be busy gasping and admiring all of the (to them) new and shiny stuff.




Edit: And let's not forget part of what makes grinding so boring is when you have... absolutely no one to do it with (aka how things currently are). The biggest reason gamma/delta weren't total borefests in the past once you figured out how to get it done without failing in the past was... chatting it up and enjoying the socializing with your squad members. New players don't get that because the places they go to are dead. FC buyers don't get that because people get in, shoot heads, and leave. Half the BH100 squads around don't get that because bored people join the squad, rush through the boss/mobs, and then say a token ty at the end before leaving to AFK in archo. It's all fine and dandy to stick to your own personal circles at endgame but making it so new players don't even get a chance to get to that point before getting bored from lack of people? Pretty sure if they didn't care about the MMO part they'd be playing a single-player game!

SweetieBot - Lothranis

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

SweetieBot, analyze this thread!

SweetieBot has finished reading the thread: Reviving The Game!

General Stats:
First Post: 09-25-2013
Last Post: 10-03-2013
Thread Lifetime: 8 days
Total Posts: 273
Average Posts Per Day: 34.1

Activity:
Thread Activity

Top 20 Frequent Posters (count):

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
(32)

SylenThunder - Sanctuary
(25)

WannaBM - Archosaur
(20)

Miugre - Heavens Tear
(18)

oVenusArmanio
(16)

Brillance - Raging Tide
(13)

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide
(11)

Asone - Raging Tide
(11)

Desdi - Sanctuary
(8)

Apostasy - Raging Tide
(8)

Eoria - Harshlands
(7)

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear
(5)

OPKossy
(5)

Annalyse - Heavens Tear
(4)

Krisnda
(4)

Malei - Sanctuary
(4)

Selak - Dreamweaver
(4)

paralleogram
(3)

bluestuffzzz
(3)

Nariin - Dreamweaver
(3)

Writing Stats:
Total Words: 82379
Total Sentences: 5024
Average Words per Post: 301.8
Average Words per Sentence: 16.4
Average Sentences per Post: 18.4
Average Syllables per Word: 1.4
Average Letters per Word: 4.3

Most Used Words (count): (common words excluded)
Word Cloud
game (747)
level (471)
players (435)
quests (214)
content (210)
play (206)
been (192)
doing (177)
change (163)
frost (160)

Most Used 3-Word Phrases (count):
"of the game (58)"
"in the game (40)"
"there is no (35)"
Most Used 4-Word Phrases (count):
"nothing to do with (18)"
"the majority of the (16)"
"longevity of the game (15)"
Most Used 5-Word Phrases (count):
"how are you going to (9)"
"the longevity of the game (9)"
"longer it takes to get (8)"

This took me 10.7 s to finish

Ursa - Dreamweaver

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Look at it objectively.

Can you honestly state why you got bored by level 12?

I bet he did. After raising 3 chars (From Ether, Lost, Plume) to endgame with grind /BH / Cube runs before hyper FC was possible I can tell you I can't stand to see the same npcs giving me the same quest to kill 10 fking wolves again. I refuse to grind the swamp or zhen on pirate island for 10h/day with Esoterica again and I don't like being taken the right to bypass that. As long as oracles exist I will never grind up another char anyway and I really want to see you campain against those too.
Warning tho : FC noobs are nothing compared to oracle noobs

And btw, people that rush chars to 100 are doing it for a purpose: buffer, farmer, opener or just to switch from their previous main.
A new player in PWI will not rush to endgame because he frankly has no idea how to , and he will find himself under-geared and unprepared for what the game throws at him.

The problem of midgame having no players is not caused by FC , it's caused by low game population, and the fix for that is totally different. Even back in 2009 the starter areas were almost deserted. People found help for FBs because it was (almost) the only surce of reputation for rank gear. Once BH were out the ones that people did the most were from 69 and up, lower ones still had issues finding people. And that was september/october 2009...At least on my server I see a lot of 69's and 79's calls in WC, Brim and Eden again enough that even a casual 2hr/day player like me could do any of them without issues. Not having that on your server? well, FC is not the issue, the player number is.
Limiting FC to revive midgame...what a buch of horsepoo.

opkossy

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I bet he did. After raising 3 chars (From Ether, Lost, Plume) to endgame with grind /BH / Cube runs before hyper FC was possible I can tell you I can't stand to see the same npcs giving me the same quest to kill 10 fking wolves again. I refuse to grind the swamp or zhen on pirate island for 10h/day with Esoterica again and I don't like being taken the right to bypass that. As long as oracles exist I will never grind up another char anyway and I really want to see you campain against those too.

Except that there's no longer the huge grind we once had... as those who do go through what we now have can attest to. Plus by the time traces of the old grind would start to show up... well... by then you'd already be above 75 and able to hyper in frost to your heart's content. Not to mention coin is not an issue anymore thanks to JJ orders. Which, I shall add, can be discovered the same time players complete their very first Dragon Quest as that directs you back to the starter areas and... Jolly Jones will be right there with the flag over his head.


As for the rest of your post, no one is saying that hypering in frost from level 1 is the only issue or that it would solve everything. In fact, the only people even implying the thought of anything similar to that so far here have been those fervently arguing against any change. What we have been saying and that seems to keep flying over people's heads is that it's a step towards fixing the problems we have. Not the final solution or something that will fix all the problems but a small step in the right direction.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

And just to ad to what OPKossy said, there's so many new quests, that for the most part, you don't have to touch the old ones aside from cultivation's. So you can go and experience the new content. (and you would have to do the cultivation's anyway even with other methods of leveling.

Imagine how much less boring it would be if you actually had people to talk to and play with while you were doing those quests, and exploring the new additions to the game.

Also, just to put more emphasis on this....

OPKossy wrote: »

....
As for the rest of your post, no one is saying that hypering in frost from level 1 is the only issue or that it would solve everything. In fact, the only people even implying the thought of anything similar to that so far here have been those fervently arguing against any change.

What we have been saying and that seems to keep flying over people's heads is that it's a step towards fixing the problems we have. Not the final solution or something that will fix all the problems but a small step in the right direction.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I refuse to grind the swamp or zhen on pirate island for 10h/day with Esoterica again and I don't like being taken the right to bypass that.

Nobody in this thread is supporting going back to endless grinding though. I'm fairly certain nobody wants to go back to those days. I certainly don't but leveling is not what it used to be back in 2008/2009.

And btw, people that rush chars to 100 are doing it for a purpose: buffer, farmer, opener or just to switch from their previous main.

That's a selfish reason but it is true regardless and I have plenty of friends you have done that and do that and I will not deny it; they are very handy.
I would probably be angry too if I had such alts to level and whilst I'd personally accept things as they are, I don't expect others to, so I agree here.

A new player in PWI will not rush to endgame because he frankly has no idea how to , and he will find himself under-geared and unprepared for what the game throws at him.

The problem of midgame having no players is not caused by FC , it's caused by low game population, and the fix for that is totally different.

The world map is mostly empty though. Now it's kinda active due to titles but it will die out soon again.
A new player would feel forced to powerlevel in order to "catch up" and be able to "play" with others at level. Maybe not everyone but I would if I was a new starting player.
Unless I enjoyed playing solo, I would eventually be bored.

There are interesting things to do such as Rebirth Order Alpha, Beta and at-level PV and a few other things. It's hard to put a squad together though. They may not be interesting to you and a veteran but for someone new they'd most likely want to try them out (just like how I was eager to run my first ever rebirth order).

Even back in 2009 the starter areas were almost deserted. People found help for FBs because it was (almost) the only surce of reputation for rank gear. Once BH were out the ones that people did the most were from 69 and up, lower ones still had issues finding people. And that was september/october 2009.

My server was pretty active even back then. There were plenty of low level BHs, the BH platform was flooded with people looking for classes or a squad for any BH. At the very least, this is how it was during the hours I would play.
There's no denying that most people run FBs for reputation, that's true.



Honestly, nobody can predict if restricting FCC is going to help or not and it's been said over and over and over that there are a lot of things to be done to "help" the game. Restricting FCC alone won't be enough. Most people I see posting against it though don't even seem to try to bring forth some ideas or suggestions on what could be done.

I still agree with Eoria's point that quests would need a little more work. There are some great quests out there but most of them are indeed the old kill x or collect x.

However, judging by the posts on the thread, a lot of people don't seem to have any clue on how the new quests were updated so I'm skeptical whether people would actually bother with quests even if they become that good.
People will probably still prefer FCC for being faster. Might just be me but I don't think good content will be enough to get people out of the instance. (There's a limit anyway, it can't become so good that's better than endgame.)

I remember that one week when hypers were accidentally turned off in FCC. Things went pretty well on my server. I'd say have a test run of a month but people would probably be against it. One week is probably not long enough of a period to fully judge the impact it had I believe.

Anyway, just my 2 cents I guess.
Maybe what we need more than anything is a "fix" on the overall community and playerbase of the game before we can attempt to change anything.

Interpret that as you will. It's not intended as an insult to anyone in this thread in any way. People who know what I'm talking about will know what I mean.

krisnda

Most people I see posting against it though don't even seem to try to bring forth some ideas or suggestions on what could be done.

Thank you!!!

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Thank you SweetieBot.

Now look at the top ten posters...

SweetieBot - Lothranis wrote: »

Top 20 Frequent Posters (count):

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
(32) Arguing

SylenThunder - Sanctuary
(25) Supporting

WannaBM - Archosaur
(20) Arguing

Miugre - Heavens Tear
(18) Supporting

oVenusArmanio
(16) Supporting

Brillance - Raging Tide
(13) Arguing I think
(She needs to make more sense to be certain.)

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide
(11) Supporting

Asone - Raging Tide
(11) Supporting

Desdi - Sanctuary
(8) Supporting

Apostasy - Raging Tide
(8) Supporting

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

... Fortunately, some of us (especially myself, who has also worked in the game industry, for 10 years in both the development and publishing sides) know better, and someone has to speak for the silent preponderance of active players who are busy playing and not indefinitely complaining on the forums until they get the player base playing the way they want them to under this poorly understood guise of extending the game's lifespan.

Guess where I am when I'm not working, cooking, or sleeping? Farming gear for my 101 Cleric, my 100 Seeker, and my soon-to-be 100 veno. I might even go do some FCC runs, or I'll get on an alt, grab some wine, and do a full at-level BH59 or 51. Sometimes I'll get onto a mid-range toon and go help other people who are having trouble finding help in the desolate landscape.

The game isn't just about being 100+. And if you're going to pull out the "I've worked in the game industry"card, explain the success of games like EverQuest and UO. This game has the potential to be just as good as those, with the same kind of lifespan. Just as long as it isn't ruined by idiots that can only see endgame and then boredom.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Thank you SweetieBot.

Now look at the top ten posters...


Guess where I am when I'm not working, cooking, or sleeping? Farming gear for my 101 Cleric, my 100 Seeker, and my soon-to-be 100 veno. I might even go do some FCC runs, or I'll get on an alt, grab some wine, and do a full at-level BH59 or 51. Sometimes I'll get onto a mid-range toon and go help other people who are having trouble finding help in the desolate landscape.

The game isn't just about being 100+. And if you're going to pull out the "I've worked in the game industry"card, explain the success of games like EverQuest and UO. This game has the potential to be just as good as those, with the same kind of lifespan. Just as long as it isn't ruined by idiots that can only see endgame and then boredom.

EQ and UO were developed much differently. Explanation simplified.

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

What assumption. I too understand the nostalgia and it isnt long ago that i made a new toon with the intention to really play it.

I made it to level 12 before i was bored ****less with it and went back to TT farming on my main because yes that is more fun to me.

Nostalgia because yes it was so nice when it was the first time and everything was new. But it will never again be the first time and it will never again be new. History does not come back. Its like the things you did when you were a kid. Wasnt it amazing when you were 5-10 years old, climbing trees, exploring everything in a 200 yard radius around your house in minute detail, no worries about taking care of bills and making an income, just pure naive bliss. Same thing, it doesnt come back again like that. And you can go and try climbing trees and exploring every detail of your surrounding, but it will never be like that. It will bore you quickly because the world is no longer new. (except if you take acid, but we cant make the whole PWI comunity take acid anyway)

Careful using the n-word.. it's offensive here! b:laugh

Even though I've criticized n-word since I joined the forums, I must have just learned the term!

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

I never stated that powerleveling decreases the longevity of the game. I have specifically stated that in order to attract new players, the low level content areas need to be more populated. This is the first of several steps to achieve that.

As for "indefinitely complaining on the forums until they get the player base playing the way they want them to" rather than playing the game, lets to a quick calculation here...

SweetieBot, analyze this thread!
b:chuckle

Low level content was enjoyed when this game first started.

Most people are end game. The vast majority of rewards are endgame. The vast majority of things to do (including being viable in PVP) are endgame.

In fact, from what people who advocate this tell me, you can get endgame quickly merely by questing.

So given how quickly people level now, how the frack are people going to populate low level areas when they're zooming past them doing quests too?

Such short sighted and terrible ideas.

Oh, and to the person (I think a mod) who quoted a post saying no one arguing against the OP premise has made suggestions, you might want to read the thread because both myself and WannaBM have made suggestions about what needs to be targeted to keep the active player base playing. Hint: Trying to make the population do low level quests and barring both newbies and vet lowbie alts in FF isn't it.

krisnda

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh, and to the person (I think a mod) who quoted a post saying no one arguing against the OP premise has made suggestions, you might want to read the thread because both myself and WannaBM have made suggestions about what needs to be targeted to keep the active player base playing. Hint: Trying to make the population do low level quests and barring both newbies and vet lowbie alts in FF isn't it.

I'm not going to comb this entire thread right now as I have more important things to do at the moment, but re-read that quote again. Hint: it said most people said not "all" (I already assumed by looking at your walls of argumentative text that you made this point already).

VKnightV - Lost City

this game was made to be a p2p meaning to have a loooong long duration

pretty much like EQ and UO


anything else my smart non ideas JanusZeal might want to add


and JanusZeal you should stop selling br and play a lil more i know i know you want to make coin but really defending fc with nothing to add is bad


and for ur information i am from pw malasya (oracle) and its not nastolgia when more ppl want to restrict fc to 75+

and yes in the game there more ppl but you know what they are NOT here


if they dont VOTE they dont count right


so with that we win b:laugh lets restrict fc

Selak - Dreamweaver

There is one old 3D MMORPG which is currently celebrating its 12 year online (The name I am not allowed to say) with a new game engine, and has even bigger plans for the future.

When you give a game (or anything else in life) a shelf life you ignore the fact that in the real world well run MMORPGs may go beyond the predicted time.

Also you limit your own abilities, to see the future potential with anything you do, in game and real life.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Selak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is one old 3D MMORPG which is currently celebrating its 12 year online (The name I am not allowed to say) with a new game engine, and has even bigger plans for the future.

When you give a game (or anything else in life) a shelf life you ignore the fact that in the real world well run MMORPGs may go beyond the predicted time.

Also you limit your own abilities, to see the future potential with anything you do, in game and real life.

Everything that has been done to PWI ensures a short shelf life -- starting with endgame gear being introduced into the boutique back in 2009. There's no way a player can undo for a business what has been done to the game, but much like a game I've played that was run by VIE in the 1990s, dumped by the company when it ran the game into the ground, and players took it over once dumped to start private servers, this game may well wind up going the same way.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Regarding that SweetieBot list, I'm indeed supporting the restriction however I'm also trying to be open minded and understand what the people against this change have to say.

Some of them bring up good points like Eoria who mentioned better rewards or more interactive quests would be needed to drag people out of the instance than just merely better EXP/coin and I do agree with that. It's not how she worded it but this is what I understood from it.
Another point was people who try to powerlevel and what would that cause to the game, hence I thought of a month of restricted FCC test.

However, a lot of people arguing against it don't even bring other suggestions or good points that make me re-think my personal position in this matter.
Most of the people I see posting don't even bother to read the first post or try to understand judging by the things they point which are often off topic or out of context or just resort to personal attacks and recycle the same argument by wording it in different ways.

bluestuffzzz

No one has a less-valid argument here, really. It takes more than just fixing hypering/FF to bring back the player base to reasonable amounts. An intense advertising campaign, e-mail blasts, and an active staff that participates with the community will be a must to make the game come back to what it once was, in terms of population levels.

Desdi - Sanctuary

bluestuffzzz wrote: »

No one has a less-valid argument here, really. It takes more than just fixing hypering/FF to bring back the player base to reasonable amounts. An intense advertising campaign, e-mail blasts, and an active staff that participates with the community will be a must to make the game come back to what it once was, in terms of population levels.

Everyone agreed on that or at least most people did. It's been mentioned quite a lot; this restriction would not be enough but we gotta start from somewhere. Whether this is good or not is a speculation, nobody can truly predict it.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Took a few days off from this thread, now let's see what I missed. Some fantastic posts by Desdi and Malei, for starters. But oh, what the hell, let's go back to everyone's favorite politician.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

EQ and UO were developed much differently. Explanation simplified.

You do realize he didn't ask for a "simplified" explanation, right? That was your addition, presumably to pass off a three-word answer ("developed much differently") as some kind of respectable point.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So given how quickly people level now, how the frack are people going to populate low level areas when they're zooming past them doing quests too?

Such short sighted and terrible ideas.

You've already been told multiple times that the Frost restriction is step one. So assuming you're not deliberately pretending to forget the arguments, then let me get this straight...

You think Step One is a terrible idea because it won't do anything on its own. When you're told it's just Step One, you then proceed to say it's ludicrous to even consider Step Two, Three, Four, etc. because Step One is such a terrible idea. "I don't like A because it requires B, but I won't consider B because I don't like A."

Circular logic, much? >_>

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote:

There is no iteration that the game is outdated and thus not need to be "saved". The length of time this game has been around is why the game is declining, people have interest in other things, try and follow along instead of trying to paraphrase my argument into something else. MMORPGs don't last forever, they have a short lifespan. PWE caters to people who want to level faster, they always have. They push players to endgame, rewards are best endgame, endgame content is mostly targeted in updates, players want to reach endgame, therefore endgame is where people want to be. You and others in this thread who keep insisting that players will play differently have a latent issue coming to grips with this being the will of the community by their actions.

Whereas you clearly have a latent issue with established facts. Did you personally fly around the lowgame and midgame areas during the week when Frost hypering was disabled? I did. I even participated a little, to the extent that my work schedule would allow. Even in that limited time, I saw firsthand the effects of what this thread is pushing for. Now you're going to sit here and tell me people can't adapt? Oh, but I'm sure you won't phrase it that way. To you, it's the holy struggle for personal freedoms, the right to do absolutely anything (that you've conveniently rationalized) no matter what effect it has on the game.

Oh but wait, I forgot about the magic of the Silent Majority argument:

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote:

Fortunately, some of us (especially myself, who has also worked in the game industry, for 10 years in both the development and publishing sides) know better, and someone has to speak for the silent preponderance of active players who are busy playing and not indefinitely complaining on the forums until they get the player base playing the way they want them to under this poorly understood guise of extending the game's lifespan.

The funny thing about all this is how you're so convinced that this is the way things are, without backing up that assertion in the slightest (except to say "there are ways"), and then you accuse us of putting the blinders on, despite our established logical proofs which you selectively ignore or dismiss.

Oh wait, it's okay, you have the luxury of dismissing them because to you, nobody here can escape your favorite instant-dismissal word:

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Careful using the n-word.. it's offensive here! b:laugh

Even though I've criticized n-word since I joined the forums, I must have just learned the term!

Well, I'm terribly sorry I haven't gone digging through your post history, like you have with mine. All I cared to see was in this thread, and what I saw in this thread is you prancing back and forth swinging "nostalgia" around like it was a magic hammer labeled with the phrase "Janus wins lol." It may surprise you to learn that most people aren't interested in the forum equivalent of each others' life stories.

Speaking of which:

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote:

I don't debate forum topics in PM. Never have, never will.

That's cool, that's cool. You have no more obligation to do that than I have to bring the forum drama in-game, which I don't. But if you're not willing to do that, then you need to quit with the personal attacks going forward, as my post history is not the topic of debate here and you know it. I offered you an avenue to debate that with me if you so chose; you refused it. So don't bring it into the thread and then act amazed when the mods don't see the point of your tangents.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote:

Hah.

Players didn't need to be told getting to end game is where the fun starts, they figured it out on their own which is why they powerleveled. Most people also do BH, they found out that 100+ BH's give far better rewards. I'm confused where you derive this attitude that players are all just misinformed and need to be told how to experience the game.

If people (who primarily powerleveled) wanted to experience the low level content we did back in 2008/2009 they'd make an alt and do it. You keep making this image like people are handcuffed and someone else is making choices vicariously through them when in fact they are making choices all on their own.

Do you discount the existence of peer pressure, then? When a newbie comes in, they see an empty lowgame, a fairly-populated endgame, and they're told by everyone they come in contact with that endgame is the only thing worth doing. What do you think they're going to do? They're going to powerlevel so they can get to a portion of the game where they can actually play with people. Then a couple days later when the next newbie joins, they see an empty lowgame, a fairly-populated endgame......

Really, how hard is this to understand? Newbies aren't powerleveling because they honestly believe that endgame is the only thing worth doing. They're powerleveling because, ironically, the powerleveling itself has made the endgame the only thing worth doing. It's a cycle that feeds upon itself. And to what degree these players understand what's going on will vary from person to person, but in general, the issue is not them being "misinformed," so much as starved of any opportunity to actually play the game they logged in for... except for an "opportunity" that bypasses that very game.

But of course your fabled Silent Majority is not made up of newbies, is it... it's made up of established powerlevelers who have been around forever. But of those, assuming they've taken the time to make an informed opinion (and many powerlevelers don't), how many would actually believe that powerleveling benefits the game? You can partake in something without believing its good in the long run. When I buy tokens to make shards, it's not because I believe putting flawless or immac shards in my gear is good for game balance. It's because we've all had to make our peace with the changes we've seen since 2009, and sometimes - emphasis on sometimes - that means partaking in things you don't personally agree with.

The difference is, you seem to believe that's an all-or-nothing decision. To you, a person either embraced all the changes since packs game out, or they're sitting alone in the 2008 corner waving a little pennant saying "grinding 4-evar." It may surprise you to learn that people have the ability to draw their lines in different places than the person next to them... at least, if they're not busy trying to pigeon-hole each other into convenient little "hate this" boxes like you seem to be.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote:

People can sit there and say it's not but when you can read their post history and it shows them admitting they're nostalgic for it, and espouse these ideals, lying about it to market a different approach doesn't work.

The problem with your Magic Nostalgia Hammer is that it presumes that nostalgia can serve no purpose other than a set of blinders. You hear anyone admit they're nostalgic in the slightest, and suddenly everything they say after it is invalid to you, no matter how much logical sense it makes.

Is it so hard for you to understand that nostalgia and realism can co-exist? Or is it just more convenient for your argument if you can pretend not to understand it?

For anyone reading to this point, do yourselves a favor: don't treat nostalgia as a four-letter word just because this guy is hellbent on making it one. You're perfectly capable of being informed by nostalgia (as well as a number of other factors, as is common in an informed opinion) rather than being blinded by it. These are two very different things, and the fact that Janus is trying to portray them as being the same just shows off the underhandedness of his tactics.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

Sweetiebot analyse this thread

SweetieBot - Lothranis

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sweetiebot analyse this thread

SweetieBot has finished reading the thread: Reviving The Game!

General Stats:
First Post: 09-25-2013
Last Post: 10-05-2013
Thread Lifetime: 10 days
Total Posts: 290
Average Posts Per Day: 29.0

Activity:
Thread Activity

Top 20 Frequent Posters (count):
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear (34)
SylenThunder - Sanctuary (27)
WannaBM - Archosaur (20)
Miugre - Heavens Tear (19)
oVenusArmanio (16)
Brillance - Raging Tide (13)
Wickedbrew - Raging Tide (12)
Desdi - Sanctuary (11)
Asone - Raging Tide (11)
Apostasy - Raging Tide (8)
Eoria - Harshlands (7)
OPKossy (6)
Krisnda (6)
Selak - Dreamweaver (5)
Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear (5)
Ursa - Dreamweaver (4)
Malei - Sanctuary (4)
Annalyse - Heavens Tear (4)
bluestuffzzz (4)
paralleogram (3)

Writing Stats:
Total Words: 87498
Total Sentences: 5393
Average Words per Post: 301.7
Average Words per Sentence: 16.2
Average Sentences per Post: 18.6
Average Syllables per Word: 1.4
Average Letters per Word: 4.3

Most Used Words (count): (common words excluded)
Word Cloud
game (799)
level (489)
players (449)
quests (226)
content (218)
play (215)
been (204)
doing (186)
change (168)
frost (166)

Most Used 3-Word Phrases (count):
"of the game (64)"
"in the game (46)"
"there is no (37)"
Most Used 4-Word Phrases (count):
"nothing to do with (19)"
"longevity of the game (18)"
"the majority of the (17)"
Most Used 5-Word Phrases (count):
"the longevity of the game (11)"
"how are you going to (10)"
"step in the right direction (9)"

This took me 23.3 s to finish

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

What assumption. I too understand the nostalgia and it isnt long ago that i made a new toon with the intention to really play it.

I made it to level 12 before i was bored ****less with it and went back to TT farming on my main because yes that is more fun to me.

Nostalgia because yes it was so nice when it was the first time and everything was new. But it will never again be the first time and it will never again be new. History does not come back. Its like the things you did when you were a kid. Wasnt it amazing when you were 5-10 years old, climbing trees, exploring everything in a 200 yard radius around your house in minute detail, no worries about taking care of bills and making an income, just pure naive bliss. Same thing, it doesnt come back again like that. And you can go and try climbing trees and exploring every detail of your surrounding, but it will never be like that. It will bore you quickly because the world is no longer new. (except if you take acid, but we cant make the whole PWI comunity take acid anyway)

I can understand it getting boring for the people that do it over and over. But this thread isn't about people playing alts, it is about new players. New players who have never experienced the content and yet are told by other people in the game to just skip it, or find it lonely with nobody else around and skip to endgame so they can play with others. I have met new players in both of these categories, and I often see them end up quitting because they are dejected by lacking money for skills/armor and struggling still to understand certain aspects of the game.

As far as people who want to use FF to levels alts for buffers, of course I see how a change like this would be annoying for you. But you can't always get everything for free in life, and I don't think it is a bad idea to have to put a little effort into it to get the reward. It's not like levelling low chars is even difficult anymore, and having a high level alt makes it way easier.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I can understand it getting boring for the people that do it over and over. But this thread isn't about people playing alts, it is about new players. New players who have never experienced the content and yet are told by other people in the game to just skip it, or find it lonely with nobody else around and skip to endgame so they can play with others. I have met new players in both of these categories, and I often see them end up quitting because they are dejected by lacking money for skills/armor and struggling still to understand certain aspects of the game.

As far as people who want to use FF to levels alts for buffers, of course I see how a change like this would be annoying for you. But you can't always get everything for free in life, and I don't think it is a bad idea to have to put a little effort into it to get the reward. It's not like levelling low chars is even difficult anymore, and having a high level alt makes it way easier.

Wow. No straw man there..

Argument flaw/hole: Making low level players quest will populate map areas.

Given how quickly people level with quests as well and wind up doing the same thing powerleveled people do to get endgame, this is a fantasy scenario involving real players.

I thoroughly enjoyed all the "slow" BH/quest/wq levelers back during the old BH 3-3 Emperor who didn't know how to jump over the small walls, couldn't rush, and were completely obliterated being just as skill-less and confused as powerlevelers today are.

Strife_son - Sanctuary

Changing the game for the minority group of players definitely sounds like the best way to revive the game to me.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Argument flaw/hole: Making low level players quest will populate map areas.

Given how quickly people level with quests as well and wind up doing the same thing powerleveled people do to get endgame, this is a fantasy scenario involving real players.

So if you are admitting it is fast to level for a new player now, what is your problem with making this change? Most people that are arguing against it are ones that don't want to take time to level alts. But you.... I can't figure out what your point in being here is other than trolling. Repeatedly saying "this won't work" is not helpful at all... come up with some better ideas then if you are interested in reviving the game as well; if you aren't, then go troll someplace else.

Quests might level people quickly now but they would still be out there, doing them, and have the opportunity to meet other people in the same situation. And new players probably wouldn't level quite as rushed as people levelling alts, because they wouldn't know as much about all the free exp items offered out there. None of us are saying that doing this alone is going to fix the state of the game, but it is a first step.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So if you are admitting it is fast to level for a new player now, what is your problem with making this change? Most people that are arguing against it are ones that don't want to take time to level alts. But you.... I can't figure out what your point in being here is other than trolling. Repeatedly saying "this won't work" is not helpful at all... come up with some better ideas then if you are interested in reviving the game as well; if you aren't, then go troll someplace else.

Quests might level people quickly now but they would still be out there, doing them, and have the opportunity to meet other people in the same situation. And new players probably wouldn't level quite as rushed as people levelling alts, because they wouldn't know as much about all the free exp items offered out there. None of us are saying that doing this alone is going to fix the state of the game, but it is a first step.

I take it you haven't read any of my posts? It's the only way you can actually ask "what's your problem with this change?", and "come up with some better ideas" -- both of which were already addressed quite a number of times.

Strife_son - Sanctuary wrote: »

Changing the game for the minority group of players definitely sounds like the best way to revive the game to me.

The forums has long been a popular haven for negativity and QQ, as well as those who think they know top notch development, yet can't seem to develop their own game to put it to the test. The responses malcontents get on these forums gives them delusions of grandeur, hence why I refer to those who obviously don't share this view as the silent majority because people playing aren't here posting QQ or just get fed up of it and leave. (I'll argue with them when I have the free time and am taking a short break from playing, I don't care)

This is like arguing against someone who is completely set on alien conspiracies (Roswell) and only surrounds themselves with people who think like them. That they believe it's really that popular merely because an extremely small and extremely vocal minority post a lot (quite a number of whom don't even play the game, or are voting on polls with alts, as has been proven before) can only be surmised by those who are trying to inflate the popularity of this as a type of marketing gimmick aimed at Wanmei, or those who are simply trying to convince themselves they have far more support than they really do.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

Out of curiosity, and I don't have time to read through pages and pages of thread posts to see if it was asked as I am at work, but, JanusZeal, are you a seller of the big room/heads?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide wrote: »

Out of curiosity, and I don't have time to read through pages and pages of thread posts to see if it was asked as I am at work, but, JanusZeal, are you a seller of the big room/heads?

You're the first to actually ask (the rest have simply accused in a humourous fashion) -- answer is no.

Magna - Harshlands

SylenThunder, these are my thoughts on reviving the game. I mean reviving the game the game - you know what I mean, being that you've played since at least early 2009:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1633821

WannaBM - Archosaur

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You're the first to actually ask (the rest have simply accused in a humourous fashion) -- answer is no.

And me, i do very rarely, not enough to really influence my opinion. I have much faster ways of making money and only sell FC spots (not rooms) when i am leveling my own alt 80-100 to make some money as a by-product. I do have it listed here as a service i sell. As you see i ask 2m per run while rooms sell for 1m cuz else its just not worth the effort and i dont ever expect a customer really

Nope, i am really just against it because it annoys me that people think it is gonna help anything to force other people to play to play the game the way they want and they have the illusion that they can thus repopulate the low level areas and trough that revive the game. It would pain me if the game was further destroyed this way by not only not drawing new players, but by pushing away old ones too.

The naming of this thread is what irks me most probably. If he would have just called it something like: "poll: limiting FC" i might have been able to just ignore it. Instead, he chooses this name as if the connection between limmiting FC and reviving the game is an undisputible fact.

Asone - Raging Tide

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

And me, i do very rarely, not enough to really influence my opinion. I have much faster ways of making money and only sell FC spots (not rooms) when i am leveling my own alt 80-100 to make some money as a by-product. I do have it listed here as a service i sell. As you see i ask 2m per run while rooms sell for 1m cuz else its just not worth the effort and i dont ever expect a customer really

Nope, i am really just against it because it annoys me that people think it is gonna help anything to force other people to play to play the game the way they want and they have the illusion that they can thus repopulate the low level areas and trough that revive the game. It would pain me if the game was further destroyed this way by not only not drawing new players, but by pushing away old ones too.

The naming of this thread is what irks me most probably. If he would have just called it something like: "poll: limiting FC" i might have been able to just ignore it. Instead, he chooses this name as if the connection between limmiting FC and reviving the game is an undisputible fact.

What would you have him do? Make list of the steps of the that should be taken in order on a poll? That would be a seriously long list.

If you want to keep playing this game then you have to reply on new players to come help populate it. All of us supporting this thread have already stated the reasons many times as to why the lower level areas need to be teaming with life again.

Magna - Harshlands wrote: »

SylenThunder, these are my thoughts on reviving the game. I mean reviving the game the game - you know what I mean, being that you've played since at least early 2009:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1633821

It's a thought, but that's not what we are trying to accomplish. We are trying to avoid grinding and going back that far.