Common Misconceptions

I'm tired of the constant argument about "Herc'd Venos" and "Non-herc'd Venos". Please got find the related thread in the Venomancer sub-forum. I'm not going to write that all the facts that have been stated there.

I don't care what pet the Venomancers are using as long as they fulfill their job.
I don't care who is tanking in the instance as long as we can have a fun run with lots of action. Even a death or two or a mistake is fine with me when it turns out to be funny. I don't care if it's a high level Barbarian or three Venomancers on an Armoured Bear.

Hercules or not, a Venomancer's job in a squad is to lure, debuff, pass chi(when needed), deal damage, take on guard(s)/walker(s)/add(s) (because they are usually the most suitable for the job). If they manage to do all that, which is their natural role, I will be happy regardless of the class I'm playing that moment. If they are able to tank the bosses because we lack a Barbarian or the tank calss is a low level, I will be happy regardless of the pet the Venomancer is using. If I can save the Barbarian some/all repair costs I will be happy, especially if it's one of my friends.

What I hate is Barbarians who QQ about their repair costs. I have a Barbarian myself. I do BHs with him. If I was afraid of the repair bill I wouldn't have made a Barbarian to begin with.
People who QQ because they can't find tank to do their BH. If you can't do the BH today, you can do it tomorrow. If you can't level up today, you can do it tomorrow. You character won't disappear you know.
People who expect you to do your best in squad in order to make their life easier when they don't give a damn about doing the same. You know we can all pay the Barbarian's repair cost just like we share the wine price, then have a fast run instead of wait and run slow behind a Hercules.

^ These are probably the main reasons Hercules is so demanded nowadays.
Back when it was first released it was just a luxury and in some PW versions it still is. I've heard there's even one which doesn't have the legendary pets implemented.

I have both Hercules and Phoenix on another PW. I love them. They are great. I absolutely enjoyed soloing TT and many other things. I didn't buy them here. I went through the game without them. I still enjoyed the game to its fullest. I did tons of FB, TT runs whith friends and random squads. I've even had FCC and almost did a World Boss (but then we discovered he had been killed but another faction before us). I kept being invited in those and having fun. I helped in a lot of FBs/BHs and Bosses (as tank or as DD). I've been praised for doing my job well even without a Hercules.
Conclusion? Hercules is not a must have in order to play.

Yes I do agree that a good Venomancer will want/buy a Hercules to go even further with their abilities but this doesn't make every Herc'd Venomancer good.
I'm sorry but in two moths of extensive BH and TT runs I've done this summer I've squaded with about 30 Venomancers who owned a Hercules. 25 Of them didn't know how to play and handle their pets properly. We even were lead close to squad wipes (I will not go in detail) or simply the Venomancer just spammed Venomous Scarab. Five out of the 30 were aware of their skills, occassionaly did some Amp'ing or passed chi. Two out of the 30 knew how to play their class and take advantage of every skill properly.
So, I'm sorry but whenever I see a herc'd Venomancer the first thing that will cross my mind is "S/he's probably a bad Veno, let's hope I'm wrong".

I'm not against Hercules, I'm not against people asking for it. I'm not against Hercules's existence (though the looks bother me). I'm against people judging a Venomancer's ability and skills by the pet they use and most of all I hate people who are rude to Venomancers just because they didn't or chose not to buy a Hercules. You don't know what's going on in that person's life. You can't go on and say "go charge zen and buy one" or "go farm and buy one".

And I'm not hurt about this whole thing because I'm one of them. Venomancer is the class I hate the most just because of how many bad players exist out there. A Venomancer is one of those classes that will ruin the squad if they are bad players. At least a bad Cleric can still throw a heal or two on you and save you.


to the OP -> Your statements are generally correct but you missed some things. I've read everyone's post though and all that needed to be said, has been said.

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

1. Barbs tanking in 59. All of the bosses have magical attacks and barbs just don't have any decent magical defense.

And I have Alacrity, which means the bosses don't get to use their magic attack. Or am I missing something? b:question

Seriously though, the first time I did my FB59 I tanked the bosses easily and never thought much of it. It wasn't until about 10 levels later I was doing another FB59 with a group of high-levels and they had brought special armours for each of the various bosses that I was first introduced to the belief that Magic Mobs = Barb Death.

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

2. The veno pulls. With the addition of genies, it is possible for other classes to pull. HOWEVER, if you have a veno in the squad, let them pull. If you decide that you wish to pull with your genie instead, then discuss it beforehand. Many a party is wiped because the veno goes to pull and some other player decides that he/she will instead.

Oh god i cannot count the number of times i've had this happen.. i'll go to lure a mob with my pet, and some idiot with a zeal wont be payin attention to my pet walkin past him and go lure, sometimes a completely different mob and the party leaves the one i lured all for me and my pet to deal with as they attack the other one...

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

3. Do BH's to level up. While BH is a great tool to level, and is awesome for filling that gap in the higher levels, leveling exclusively with BH is just going to make life harder for you. Sure you can get from 0 to 60 in 5 days, but what have you learned? Now you've got a huge pile of skills to learn and no money or spirit needed to learn them. For venomancers it is especially hard keeping the pets caught up with your level. Do your quests first, and fill in the space after quests with BH. You'll play better when you know how to play your character and have the skills you need to not fail. (NOTE: Despite the arguments, you learn more about your characters skills soloing in the lower levels than you do in BH squads. Once you have achieved the higher levels, BH is a necessary part of leveling because it basically replaces the tedium of grinding. By this point you should know how to play your character for the most part. You'd be surprised at how many don't. (oh wait, you do know, look at all the QQ threads on failed BH runs.))

Yup, i still have about 5 skills that need about 2 levels of upgrading cuz i made that mistake in the 60's range and didnt farm enough coin to pay for the skillups.. and my pet was stuck about 8 levels behind me for quite a while too till i hit up room 4 for a few days.

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

5. A venomancer is worthless if she doesn't have a herc. Yes the herc is good, but it's not that exclusive anymore. The abilities of the herc were nerfed many months ago and it is much more difficult for a herc to hold aggro. The only difference between a walker and a herc at level 90 is about 1200hp and the skills. My walker will actually take aggro from an equally leveled herc if I'm not careful. So knock it off and let non-herced venos do FCC ect.

Thank YOU!! god its annoying when you see a WC for a tt run and you whisp the person and first thing they ask when you say veno is "U have herc?".. and when my answer is no i either get some polite bullsh** about suddenly being full, or a nice honest person who'll say basically "Sorry we only want herc'd venos".. regardless of the fact that my main tank pet (valorian from bh59 leveled to 70+) has regularily pulled aggro off barbs my own level in tt & bh runs if im not careful.

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

6. The squad got wiped at 'X' boss because the cleric wan't healing everyone. Clerics seems to get blamed a lot for people dying, especially at bosses. Never mind that the archer/assasin/blademaster was going all out in an effort to prove how OP they were and take aggro from the barb. What usually happens is that the cleric is focused on healing the barb, someone without enough HP to tank gets aggro, and pandemonium ensues. When you take aggro, it resets the values. Also, there's is some delay in seeing that a person is taking aggro and noticing their hp drop, selecting said individual, and then beginning the healing process. Typically, they die, and the aggro goes to the next individual dealing a lot of damage. Give the clerics a break and pay attention to how you are fighting and what you are aggroing. (Also keep in mine that hyper-leveled clerics often have sucky heal skills because they can't afford to level them)

Well seeing as i have a cleric alt ive dealt with this a few times first hand.. some putz thinks hes immortal and runs in and aggros a whole room of like 10 mobs thinkin i'll just keep him alive, not realizing that in most cases cleric heals arent instant full heals and if hes takin damage faster then i can heal, hes gonna die, regardless of how many IH's i get stacked on him etc. Some of the best of the worst dont even properly get aggro from all the mobs they get the attention of, and as soon as i hit a heal i get a handful of mobs come straight at me and kill me in seconds with the rest of the party soon to follow, yet somehow its still the clerics fault they wiped..

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i learn from a very different time (in game) then you. i started the game on the first weekend it was out... and was more or less in the top 10% (level wise) of the game. most of my learning came from fbs... just cause there is so many of them and so little people to actually do them. i probably never really grinded until those death knights next to 1k.

Nice. But I see not how that disproves my point. You still had to learn how things worked at some point (even if you played on an earlier PW version).

And if this was your first PWI version, then we aren't that far apart. I joined at Client Version 24... which was by no means the start of the PWI servers, but compared to the current patch, yeah, I've been around awhile. XD

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

there is actually nothing wrong with oracles... provided you actually learn all the skills afterwards. my sin was babied from 0-90 by an 100+ arch/veno/cleric and bh100 exp cubes... his weapon progression went from lvl 10 supply dagger to 43 mold dagger to 80 mold to tt99 gold. i learned everything on my sin in fb79/89/frost... with no quests. and now whenever anyone wanted me for anything... they don't just ask if you wanna come.... they ask you wanna come on your sin.

Of course you can learn things without questing, at least if you've been around for awhile and know the basic game mechanics. You also need common sense for that, of course, which you clearly seem to have. Some people couldn't pull off what you did. And you have to admit that a lot of Oracle abusers are probably of the "I-got-through-the-game-on-daddy's-credit-card" variety.

But that kinda brings me to my other point: When, exactly, did this game stop being about the play experience? The ambiance of questing in various changing locales? What I'm trying to say is, why do some people feel this need to skip the ride instead of enjoying it?

Honestly, do you think I'd still be only 91 after almost 2 years if I wasn't taking my time and enjoying it? Why is endgame so important anyway? Seems to me the only perks of endgame are to do massively irritating and time-consuming instances for super-gear in order to... do more massively irritating and time-consuming instances? See, I don't get it. Maybe it's all leading up to PVP? Personally, I stopped caring about PVP around the time I realized that I'd never beat the Daddy's-Credit-Card crowd.

I'm sorry... you have every right to use the mechanics the game provides for you (in your sin's case, Oracles), but I have every right to shake my head and sigh at the concept. It is my opinion that if you're too impatient to actually play and enjoy the early stages of this game, then it's time to find a new MMO.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

a herc/nix to a veno is like a cv to an archer. the weapon doesn't make the archer... but you can bet that any named archer will have an cv (or better).... same logic. yea... herc/nix is expensive... but any named veno will have them. while its not good to judge a veno by the pet... the pet is a good indicator of the effort put in to the veno.

Let me counter with an argument that, according to some, I seem to have gained a mild rep for (through no wish of my own).

Y'know how I said up there that I like to enjoy the ride and take it slow? Well I do, but I acknowledge that eventually everyone hits endgame and that they should find something to entertain themselves. For me, that "something" is overlooked gear, stats, or strategies... including pets.

My veno is probably my most experimental character. She sports a LA build (back when that was still "cool," before people discovered HA venos), though I plan to integrate an arcane set into her inventory at some point. The most "tanklike" build among her pets probably belongs to her Overclocked Mechcrab or Rhinodrake Megalith (excluding her turtle). Her only two pets which aren't common mobs are her tabby and her pup (both self-caught). Why would I want to summon a big, ugly yellow blob to tank for me? Oh, it's a herc. Big deal. I only see them every freakin day.

I just wish style weren't dead, is all. I have no interest in being Pure-Dex-building, Heaven-Shatterer-weilding, Black-Fash-wearing PVP Archer #90647901694735790791432. Is that a crime? Maybe not, but some people seem to think I should just get out of their sight if I can't tow the line of statistical perfection. And Hercs are pretty much the apex of statistical perfection that everyone "needs" in this game.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

3. bh is actually a great way to learn your class. whats solo grind going to teach you about skills?

Yeah, I work hard for my money. I inherited about $200,000 a day... all I needed to was pick up my quest (the envelope delivered to me), go to the instance (drive to my lawyers office), go inside the instance and kill a few mobs (walk in the door and talk to the receptionist) and then kill a boss (get that stupid lawyer to shut up so I can sign the papers and leave with the check), then turn in my quest to collect the reward (go to the bank and cash my check).

I don't need to work 40 hours a week to know what hard work really is or to appreciate the value of a dollar. I don't need to take my time to learn how to do something. All I need to do is read a few books and I could be a doctor or lawyer. I also know what it's like to earn something with hard work. I do it every day. b:chuckle

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

First of all, why would I be upset if someone told me to use my Heaven Shatterer instead of my Crimson Soulsmasher? They would be right, because HS is just a better bow and it serves not only myself but my party better. I guarantee you if I am level 100+ with a +12 bow that I found outside an fb19 cave, I certainly would not be welcome in BH100s as often as I'd like.

Secondly, you must have missed the tons of worldchats that specifically "tell" dps classes to use their claws.

+1. I actually quit my archer because I knew I wasn't gonna be able to afford a HS, and therefore would be basically useless in just about everything from PVE (Instances) and PVP. It's harsh that people don't want venos without herc, but it's the truth. If we can get a herc veno, we'll probably take them over the non-herc any day. (Although I have taken a non-herc veno to FC, and there was no major issues.)

Neshilia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Looking at all that discussion about when a venomancer can be called "good" or "bad", I am asking myself why they chose the name "Venomancer" for this class and did not call it "Animal Tamer".

Any suggestions about that? b:mischievous

Because "Animal Tamer" sounds too lame. Also because, pet aside, the Veno is the debuff class (read: poison) "Venom-mancer"

Neshilia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Looking at all that discussion about when a venomancer can be called "good" or "bad", I am asking myself why they chose the name "Venomancer" for this class and did not call it "Animal Tamer".

Any suggestions about that? b:mischievous

Europe version we're "Beastkind Werefox"'s

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...
But that kinda brings me to my other point: When, exactly, did this game stop being about the play experience? The ambiance of questing in various changing locales? What I'm trying to say is, why do some people feel this need to skip the ride instead of enjoying it?
...

EXACTLY!b:victory

When did the game become all about end-game and who the hell cares about the rest?

I've been playing since just a couple of weeks after the servers went live publicly. (Actually had closed beta keys for when they were limited to 500 people per server but because of school responsibilities, I didn't get around to making the account until later.) I have 5 clerics, ranging from 34 to 93, 3 venomancers ranging from 52 to 74, 3 barbs I currently play highest is 84 (there's a few test builds I made I'm not counting), 4 Psychics ranging from 35 to 72, 5 wizards of which all but one are at least in the 60's, and a scattered few Archers, BladeMasters, and Assasins that I haven't really gotten above 30 yet. I'm not even bothering to mention the toons that I made to work on the many guides I have enjoyed doing.

Most people that play for fun don't spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on the game, and I would venture to bet that most have more fun than those that do, scrambling to get the best gear and be the most elite on the server. I know I rarely spend money on anything other than the occasional charms (usually when a sale is going on) or when something like a n aerogear that I've been waiting to show up finally is released. I have a blast. I also do training runs for FCC with veno's that don't have hercs and I never discriminate when starting one. As it has been said, there are many more important reasons to have a veno on a run, and for me, the herc may only be an added bonus. (On several occasions it has been the point of failure because the person driving didn't know what they were doing.)

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not to put you down or anything... but how much is your physical attack right now? around 8-10k... maybe 11k toward the high end.

Pah... slightly less than that, I think. XD I'm at work so I can't get on right now to check, though. :P

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

10-11k is toward my low end... while my high end breaks 14k. and guess what... 14k is below the low end of over a dozen archers on the server. these archers wielding +12cvs or rank 8 possibily doubles your damage... so its safe to say there is no way you can stand up against them in a even match. go take a look at the archers' ranking page and you'll notice everyone on the rankings either have a cv or rank 8... exception taken for those who quit before packs came out. the most feared archers in pvp/tw will have a cv/rank8 (maybe an orange weapon - rarely).

I'm sorry. I'm legitimately sorry... but am I supposed to be impressed here? Really it all speaks to me of a giant e-peen-waving contest.

We've already established that I don't do serious PVP because, no, I'm not going to stack up to those archers. I don't want to. I don't care. It would bore me to tears to strive for that kind of statistical perfection. And asking me anything about who tops the rankings would be akin to asking me anything about (American) football - I know nothing about the subject, because the subject is irrelevant to me.

As far as squads go... I don't go on Nirvana runs, I don't go on TT3-for-profit runs (or rather, I didn't when TT3 was feasibly possible). I don't go on Lunar runs. It's safe to say that I don't "compete" for squad space very often, if at all. But even if I was... if the squad leader would give me a statistical inquisition or kick me from squad if they found a "better" DD... I don't want to play with that person to begin with. Except in a scenario where the entire squad would wipe if I were present versus a "proper" archer (and good luck finding such a scenario), I fail to see where people are justified in this kind of prejudice.

The members of your squad are not a collection of stats you can just harness to a particular purpose. They're people. I won't squad with anyone who ignroes that fact.

At the very least, I'm sure you agree with me that common sense is far more important than gear and stats. At least I know how to play my class properly, which is more than a good portion of Oracle Noobs can say (particularly tideborns, but you get my point I think).

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

herc is a gear for the veno... and any top ranking veno will have the best of gears... herc/nix included. thats not to say you will need a herc to survive the game... if you are satisfy being an average run of the mill veno... they by all means... don't get a herc. but if you are striving for that most feared veno spot... your gonna need a herc/nix... among other things thats gonna cost a herc/nix 10 times over.

Basically apply my comments from above to the equivalent for venos and you have my opinion on this. XD

KategoryC - Lost City wrote: »

Well, hercs cant tank all bosses neither. On the other hand I can tank bosses which a herc cannot tank. Also Im well aware that an archer might steal aggro from me. My point was, that even I, a meelee veno, can grab aggro from a herc. And I can tank better.

We could continue the thought and make me demon and throw -int and claws at me. Wheres your herc now?

So In my opinion I would rather invest the money for a herc in refines/shards, since it would net me more damage (meelee, that is) than the pet itself.

The difference is that you... a melee veno need a cleric (in addition to yourself)... while a herc only need the veno. Thats two spots taken instead of 1 in a squad of 6 if the boss is herc-tankable.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

The problem seems to be there's a ton of players who aren't very good at rational analysis and problem solving, so they play the game according to tried-and-true scripts. That way when a party-wipe happens they have something they can look to for an explanation as to what went wrong.

It can be annoying when you're a player who doesn't play according to scripts, but at the same time it's understandable because tons of people get through life just fine by unquestioningly following the rules and instructions dictated to them by others.

+1, I couldn't agree more.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

The problem seems to be there's a ton of players who aren't very good at rational analysis and problem solving, so they play the game according to tried-and-true scripts. That way when a party-wipe happens they have something they can look to for an explanation as to what went wrong.

It can be annoying when you're a player who doesn't play according to scripts, but at the same time it's understandable because tons of people get through life just fine by unquestioningly following the rules and instructions dictated to them by others.

+1 as well. I agree entirely.