Common Misconceptions

12467…15

Comments

  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
    At 90+ the majority of good venos will have a herc.

    However, even if true, it does not necessarily follow that the majority of 90+ venos with hercs will be good venos.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
    thejapanesepage.com/ebooks/yuki_no_monogatari_manga
  • ZAPATON - Sanctuary
    ZAPATON - Sanctuary Posts: 875 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    However, even if true, it does not necessarily follow that the majority of 90+ venos with hercs will be good venos.

    Thats right. In Sanctuary, I know a few venomancers who have both Hercules and Phoenix, and yet they're terrible at it... and call it a coincidence... all the names of the ones I can think of now, start with V b:shocked
    Madness?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Carnica - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Think Shadou with some Herc skills, not magmite. And where do you get off talking about my ego? I don't take it personal, I just get annoyed that so many people DEMAND a Herc, and will boot a veno from the squad if she doesn't have one.

    On another note, yes I've seen crappy venos with Hercs. They toss Venomous Scarab and heal their pet - and that is all they do. I've also seen venos do a party-wipe by luring with their Herc with Reflect on. Hercs are nice pets, they have good skills - but they cannot replace a Veno knowing what to do and how to use their skills.
    Yeah yeah, I've seen crappy venos, clerics, etc., which has nothing to do with what is expected of a veno in FF today. (in contrast to 2008 poster talking about an archaic version of what is expected of a veno in a squad)

    A 80+ or 90+ veno having a herc is as much, today, commonplace as a BM with FF gold fists or deicide at 85-95+. I'm sure a squad would understand if you had every herc skill on a shaodu cub and not only could it tank certain bosses but keep aggro just as well as a herc can. It's entirely up to the squad what they want, and especially earlier FF squads (particularly 80-89) the herc represents a decent damage which makes bosses (like Dreadindra) go by much quicker. As it is, veno's don't need decent gear to be perfectly okay in battle, even a semi skilled veno will be making a profit from pretty much every run they do as they rarely need to pay for pots and just as rarely need repair (thanks ST/NG/MB), so the squad requires, of all things, a herc -- so what? Btw, you were talking about FF, before you go on a wild tangent about every single other instance or scenario in game. It's been said numerous times, given a veno doesn't have much they need to be paying for, that a veno is widely considered undergeared if they don't have a herc by the time they are high enough level for frost. So don't be surprised when a veno gets told the squad wants a herc and has to leave for one who does. Very simple. Even worse that you're telling me a veno shouldn't pay that price for their pet or it be demanded of them while you have not only pet skills which aren't cheap as well as a friggen nix. Gimme a break. You're just mad because you got the wrong legendary pet that doesn't benefit squads on a PVE server, in a PVE instance, as much as you want it to. Buy a herc, get the right skills for a pet so it can help you fulfill the role the squad wants the veno to, or gtfo.

    Bias is commonplace in squads where people in nirvana pick interval bm/sin/archers over a wizard, for example, or an archer over a wizard for BH Warsong Metal. Their "skill" has little to do with it, quite contrary to your tangent.
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    However, even if true, it does not necessarily follow that the majority of 90+ venos with hercs will be good venos.
    It at least signifies they are more useful to a squad in certain instances than one without.

    Everyone already knows about fail venos, which are relative to fail clerics or barbs or bm's or archers with cash shop gear. Obviously a herc is not required for FF, and neither is a barb, but squads want it because it makes the run much easier on the barb and cleric both, and guess what -- they are the classes by far most in demand in a FF squad, so you kind of go along with it or find a squad who doesn't care what pet you have. I've gone with any squad on numerous chars (never once left a squad or made a veno leave cuz they didn't have a herc.. unless they lied to me if I asked for one), and I've also at times asked specifically for herc venos, but in all honesty, the bra burning mentality about some people who refuse to get hercs based on the notion that their skill with scarabs and fox form can substitute for a herc makes me want to deny every non herc veno I see.
  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    herc is considered a gear to a veno... so yes... you have second rate gear. you could have first class skills for all that matter... but a veno with first rate gear and skills will always be perfered over you.

    A herc is considered "gear" to archers who don't know **** about venos.
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i am going to come out and say it... you can't tank all bosses... not even before the patch. and any half assed archer can take aggro off a herc (not to mention all the 2-3 aps or above users)... nothing special.

    You are correct here. "Any half-assed archer" can indeed take aggro off a herc. An Archer who isn't a crit-wh0ring jack-@ss knows to moderate his/her damage, for the good of the squad. I'm sure this is news to you.
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Not to put you down or anything... but how much is your physical attack right now? around 8-10k... maybe 11k toward the high end. 10-11k is toward my low end... while my high end breaks 14k. and guess what... 14k is below the low end of over a dozen archers on the server. these archers wielding +12cvs or rank 8 possibily doubles your damage... so its safe to say there is no way you can stand up against them in a even match. go take a look at the archers' ranking page and you'll notice everyone on the rankings either have a cv or rank 8... exception taken for those who quit before packs came out. the most feared archers in pvp/tw will have a cv/rank8 (maybe an orange weapon - rarely).

    You know, I know a lot of archers. I'm afraid to say that too many archers I have met are like Fighter Pilots - Watermelons and Peas.

    B*lls the size of Watermelons, and Brains the size of Peas.
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    herc is a gear for the veno... and any top ranking veno will have the best of gears... herc/nix included. thats not to say you will need a herc to survive the game... if you are satisfy being an average run of the mill veno... they by all means... don't get a herc. but if you are striving for that most feared veno spot... your gonna need a herc/nix... among other things thats gonna cost a herc/nix 10 times over.

    Who are you again?

    RedMenace

    \go back to aggroing the boss
    \\happy to be the barb that lets ya have that aggro, Son
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It at least signifies they are more useful to a squad in certain instances than one without.

    Everyone already knows about fail venos, which are relative to fail clerics or barbs or bm's or archers with cash shop gear. Obviously a herc is not required for FF, and neither is a barb, but squads want it because it makes the run much easier on the barb and cleric both, and guess what -- they are the classes by far most in demand in a FF squad, so you kind of go along with it or find a squad who doesn't care what pet you have. I've gone with any squad on numerous chars (never once left a squad or made a veno leave cuz they didn't have a herc.. unless they lied to me if I asked for one), and I've also at times asked specifically for herc venos, but in all honesty, the bra burning mentality about some people who refuse to get hercs based on the notion that their skill with scarabs and fox form can substitute for a herc makes me want to deny every non herc veno I see.

    Now, this at least is an argument of sorts. Yes, in the end it is the call of those classes more necessary to run an instance and no one has argued against that. But i would have to take issue with your closing comment. I have through several posts on this thread stated no other land pet to be anywhere near an herc in capabilities, even if given the same skills. This is a simple matter of base stats. But if you honestly believe an herc to be more important than "skill with scarabs and foxform" then obviously you don't know much about venos. A veno with or without an herc is much more than just what his/her pet can do. Pets are not what determines a player's worth or skill. There are very few legitimate uses for an herc in a squad, babying capricious Barbs and Clerics may be a practical consideration but not effective gameplay. There's not a boss in the game that can only be done by an herc, nor more efficiently that if a char was to tank it. Once again, having an herc tank means the squad's potential dps output is wasted and comes at the cost of precious time. Is it more convenient? Perhaps for Barbs and Clerics who will rather idle than actually play the game, but for the rest of the group is an utter waste of time and i find it doubtful if the coin saved on repairs is worth it.

    The argument that an herc's damage output on (?) bosses makes it worthwhile as a tank is bogus, since there are other pets that can do a better job and, relieved of tanking duty, a veno adds her own dps output and amping equivalent to an extra DD. If the issue at stake is legitimate gameplay reasons to require a pet then, outside what may very well be less than a handful of scenarios, asking for an herc is unwarranted. If the consideration is that an herc somehow proves a veno's ability or that players in some classes simply prefer it that way, then the discussion is not about real gameplay considerations but rather centers on the whims and stubborness of some players. And yes, they're well entitled to their stupidity so there's no use arguing about that...
  • Allisandre - Sanctuary
    Allisandre - Sanctuary Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ... And yes, they're well entitled to their stupidity so there's no use arguing about that...

    +1 The whole point of this thread is to clear up these misconceptions. Unfortunately it's become another herc debate.
    Take the time to look for your answer before you post like an idiot.

    There are two kinds of people in this world...
    There are those who panic,
    And then there is us.
    ~ Sarah Jane Smith
  • Carnica - Heavens Tear
    Carnica - Heavens Tear Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    OK... i am going to summarize my point about veno and herc here since i am getting side tracked.

    4. Herc-less veno are perceived to be a poor veno... which in term gives the perception of being under geared.

    Helpful hint of the day for you (and anyone who decides how good a Veno's gear is by if she has a herc:

    Click on player.
    Right-click on player's portrait.
    Choose "View Player Info"
    See my TT99 Gold armor (all +6 / +7).
    See that perhaps this veno does have good gear, and just saw no need to waste money on a herc.
    [SIGPIC]TY Santacruz![/SIGPIC]

    theempire.ucoz.com
  • sleepcat
    sleepcat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Carnica - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Helpful hint of the day for you (and anyone who decides how good a Veno's gear is by if she has a herc:

    Click on player.
    Right-click on player's portrait.
    Choose "View Player Info"
    See my TT99 Gold armor (all +6 / +7).
    See that perhaps this veno does have good gear, and just saw no need to waste money on a herc.

    What if the Veno only had a Scroll of Tome? :(
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That's precisely the misconception. I've often met herc'ed venos that will not amp, lure or even DD efficiently... Basically they're nothing but pet clerics. Are all herc'ed venos like that? Certainly not, and i would agree the overwhelming majority of top tier venos do have an herc, which doesn't mean herc makes you any good.

    If you're starting a squad off wc and you request an herc'ed veno for a job where an herc isn't really required, you're simply publicly acknowledging to many of us that either you're a noob or an abusive jerk that will have the veno do all the work. And you're badly mistaken if you think you can compare this to real life, an herc is not the equivalent of a college degree but rather it's a bit like saying you own a car. Granted a car will allow you many choices and to be more independent and efficient with your time. But at the end of the day it shouldn't really matter to an employer, unless you're looking to break into the exciting world of Pizza delivery...

    Every job position doesn't get filled by anyone who can marginally do the job... its filled by the best candidate. When someone wc for a herc veno... hes already setting the bar and requirements. Then some herc-less veno replies and get invited... of course shes going to get kicked. She bascially "lied" to get in.

    I would agree that there are herc venos who more useless then ax is to an archer. But at the same time there are herc-less who are just as useless. A herc veno can do anything a herc-less veno can. But a herc-less veno can't do everything a herc veno can... simple as that.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Carnica - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Helpful hint of the day for you (and anyone who decides how good a Veno's gear is by if she has a herc:

    Click on player.
    Right-click on player's portrait.
    Choose "View Player Info"
    See my TT99 Gold armor (all +6 / +7).
    See that perhaps this veno does have good gear, and just saw no need to waste money on a herc.

    I guess I should go up to the herc venos in my guild... and check if they +11 their tt99/nirvana gears yet. Will do that tonight and get back to you.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    But a herc-less veno can't do everything a herc veno can... simple as that.


    This, sure there are some venos with hercs that are useless but there's just as many venos without a herc that are useless. And again, at endgame, 99.9% of all venos that are "good" will have gotten a herc by then. It's like an archer without a lunar bow, by endgame the majority of good archers will have one.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    A herc is considered "gear" to archers who don't know **** about venos.



    You are correct here. "Any half-assed archer" can indeed take aggro off a herc. An Archer who isn't a crit-wh0ring jack-@ss knows to moderate his/her damage, for the good of the squad. I'm sure this is news to you.



    You know, I know a lot of archers. I'm afraid to say that too many archers I have met are like Fighter Pilots - Watermelons and Peas.

    B*lls the size of Watermelons, and Brains the size of Peas.



    Who are you again?

    RedMenace

    \go back to aggroing the boss
    \\happy to be the barb that lets ya have that aggro, Son

    So is a herc isn't considered a gear to a veno... then what is a herc. And why would an archer hold back just so the barb can have aggro... archer these days can tank all but tt bosses. Holding back in other situtions just so the barb can have his aggro and pride is just stupid. Thats like telling a 5aps user to hold back so a tiger form barb can have his aggro... stupid and slow things down.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Oneji - Heavens Tear
    Oneji - Heavens Tear Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
    3. BH does give you spirit, I don't get where you get the idea that BH gives you XP without giving you spirit.

    4. Go get rank 9 without cash shopping.

    5. A herc is a sign of a good veno, at higher levels if a veno still doesn't have a herc it's probably because the veno is bad.

    7. It helps hold aggro though

    8. No one over level 60 thinks that's true.


    Wait so are you trying to tell people that if a venos does not have enough money to afford a herc they are in other words bad? Well in that case I hope you plan on handing out alot of coins to the poor venos out there.b:chuckle
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Oneji - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Wait so are you trying to tell people that if a venos does not have enough money to afford a herc they are in other words bad? Well in that case I hope you plan on handing out alot of coins to the poor venos out there.b:chuckle

    its called under geared. it doesn't matter how skilled you are when your a walking 1 shot.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • sleepcat
    sleepcat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    So a Veno with a hercs and another Veno with a nix walks into a bar. Which one is better?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ZAPATON - Sanctuary
    ZAPATON - Sanctuary Posts: 875 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    sleepcat wrote: »
    So a Veno with a hercs and another Veno with a nix walks into a bar. Which one is better?

    The brunette b:chuckle

    Oh wait... wasn't about the looks?
    Madness?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Oneji - Heavens Tear
    Oneji - Heavens Tear Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    its called under geared. it doesn't matter how skilled you are when your a walking 1 shot.

    Herc=Uberly Gearb:shocked?

    No Herc=Equals Under Gearedb:sad?

    Is there some logical way to prove this b:surrender.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Oneji - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Herc=Uberly Gearb:shocked?

    No Herc=Equals Under Gearedb:sad?

    Is there some logical way to prove this b:surrender.

    its a generalization... average herc venos are going to be better geared then none herc venoes. just like cv/rank8 archers are going to be better geared then tt99 archers. and -.1 int sins are going to be better geared then tt99 green sins. 5aps bms are going to be better geared then ax bms.

    there is no point mentioning skills...

    as skilled people will get the money for their gear
    rich people will buy their gear

    so the ones with **** gears... or aleast 99.9% of them are the polar opposite of the above... too unskilled to gear good stuff... or too poor to buy stuff.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Oneji - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Herc=Uberly Gearb:shocked?

    No Herc=Equals Under Gearedb:sad?

    Is there some logical way to prove this b:surrender.

    Herc used to be uber gear. It's now commonplace. If a veno doesn't have one by 9x, they aren't necessarily a bad veno, but they are considered undergeared.

    There's your logical explanation.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Oneji - Heavens Tear
    Oneji - Heavens Tear Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Herc used to be uber gear. It's now commonplace. If a veno doesn't have one by 9x, they aren't necessarily a bad veno, but they are considered undergeared.

    There's your logical explanation.

    Ah ok I see..Just that over the months of playing gear is something that you equip.Would be unusual equipping a hercb:laugh.
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Every job position doesn't get filled by anyone who can marginally do the job... its filled by the best candidate. When someone wc for a herc veno... hes already setting the bar and requirements. Then some herc-less veno replies and get invited... of course shes going to get kicked. She bascially "lied" to get in.

    I would agree that there are herc venos who more useless then ax is to an archer. But at the same time there are herc-less who are just as useless. A herc veno can do anything a herc-less veno can. But a herc-less veno can't do everything a herc veno can... simple as that.

    I have never encouraged anyone to lie to get into a squad nor would aprove of such behaviour, let's be clear on that. Is any veno's call wether he/she wants to take a chance and ask for a spot on a squad even when not conforming to the requested profile, as long as this is done in an upfront and honest manner. For example pming "96 veno, no herc but experienced" (the asumption being the experience is real) may lead to an invite if an herc'ed veno cannot be found. Personally i would never apply to a squad which specifically requires an herc'ed veno however...

    And yes, a capable herc'ed veno can do anything an unherc'ed veno can do, and then more. The relevant question however would be wether more is needed, are you expecting the run to fail so disastrously that you want a plan B? Other than tanking bosses or singlehandedly holding 4 or more elites at a time, there's nothing an herc'ed veno can do an unherc'ed veno can't. Let's look at this two points closely; If an herc cannot tank the boss it makes no difference wether the veno has an herc or no, a regular pet skilled with Tough and Threaten may hold out for longer than an herc on this scenario, so i would say they're about even. This is where skill comes into play, for instance to use survival skills such as Bramble Hood and try to lead the boss away while the squad gets back on their feet. And this has nothing to do with wether you have an herc or not. If you want the herc to tank then my argument about efficiency does apply. If you want it as back up then this is an unreasonable demand. Some tanks can handle bosses without a Cleric but this would be a rather unreasonable bar to set on all Barbs and BMs. But let's say you do because you can get away with it, then a) a veno will be forced to act inefficiently since he/she must use an herc, not the best pet for any given job and b) given hercs have no room for skills such as Roar, your party may very well be wiped out before he/she can grab aggro. A more humble pet with an appropiate skill set could certainly be of better use on this scenario, although once again i would point out this would depend on the skill of the veno, regardless of the pet being used.

    As for multiple mobs, either you foresee this use for the pet or you don't. Outside of relatively few cases a veno shouldn't be in this position in the first place (especially as a luring class) and while an herc will allow for greater chances of success it comes down to skill in the end. Sometimes the regular pet will succeed where the herc fails. I haven't done RB so i cannot comment on it, but it would seem strange to me that an herc's reflect is able to hold multiple mobs through other classes AoEing...

    My point is your argument is on the same vein as a squad rejecting someone perfectly capable of doing the job on the chance someone 10 levels higher will decide to join them later on... You can rationalize it all you want, but outside a small handful of scenarios you probably can't provide a solid and uncontroverted reason to require an herc. It's just that you've become so used to it you probably expect someone to come up with an answer that you obviously can't. You're too set in your ways to even consider that yours may not be the safest or most efficient way of doing a run. And your arguments are simplistic, having no bearing on real game mechanics or scenarios. You ask for herc'ed venos simply because you were told to, you don't even know the real reason for it...
  • Allisandre - Sanctuary
    Allisandre - Sanctuary Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Now everyone's talking about end-game and 90+. Sure by that time I'll have scraped enough on the side to probably have a herc. But at 82 when someone advertises a FCC run, (not stating herc'ed veno) and then boots me because I don't have one yet, THAT is fail. You guys seem to miss this point. And yes, even at 75, I've been booted from TT squads for not having a ****ing herc. Never mind that I'm probably better with my walker than 50% of the veno's my level with hercs. And if I use 30 mil to drop Protect and Bramble on my Walker, you're going to have a hard time telling I don't have a herc if you actually let me play.
    Take the time to look for your answer before you post like an idiot.

    There are two kinds of people in this world...
    There are those who panic,
    And then there is us.
    ~ Sarah Jane Smith
  • vristion
    vristion Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    If they dont have a tank I could see why... Its a gamble.
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Herc used to be uber gear. It's now commonplace. If a veno doesn't have one by 9x, they aren't necessarily a bad veno, but they are considered undergeared.

    There's your logical explanation.
    Exactly.


    If you're doing a random TT3-2/3-3 squad or a nirvana squad would you take an archer with a level 99 gold bow refined to +2? Would you take a BM with +2 lvl 99 mold fists and no -int gears?
    Now everyone's talking about end-game and 90+. Sure by that time I'll have scraped enough on the side to probably have a herc. But at 82 when someone advertises a FCC run, (not stating herc'ed veno) and then boots me because I don't have one yet, THAT is fail. You guys seem to miss this point. And yes, even at 75, I've been booted from TT squads for not having a ****ing herc. Never mind that I'm probably better with my walker than 50% of the veno's my level with hercs. And if I use 30 mil to drop Protect and Bramble on my Walker, you're going to have a hard time telling I don't have a herc if you actually let me play.

    Well they should have just asked if you had one first.


    But the thing is, I wouldn't EXPECT a veno to have a herc at your level but, there ARE some venos that do, and if I was 7x I'd rather run an instance with the herc veno rather than the veno with a golem.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    This should be renamed... "another veno with/without herc thread"

    /deadhorse
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    This should be renamed... "another veno with/without herc thread"

    /deadhorse

    +1 cause it sure turned into that.

    Basic facts of the whole Herc/non-Herc matter:

    1) Herc by 90 or you're considered undergeared.

    2) It's not impossible to have a Herc at earlier levels. My veno had one since level 65, no cash shop involved on my part.

    3) Venos without Hercs can be just as skilled. However, it's normally a safer bet to go with the Herc veno.

    4) Not everybody who asks for a Herc veno is a noob nor an ****, they're just staying on what they know is the safer side of things, because they don't enjoy playing the game outside of the standard.

    End of. There's not even a debate at this point.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Azura - Lost City
    Azura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Everything you OP posted is true. However there is a reason people will prefer Hercules venos specially at low levels for frost. The reason for this is because the hercules can tank most bosses, and at low levels it deals more damage than anyone (unless you have a crazy low level cashopper). I played as a barb in low level frost (from 79 to 90) and at those levels is very tiring to tank for almost 3 hours. When I took another venomancer with hercules I noticed runs went faster and it gave me a big break. I still took venos w/o hercules, because their pets are good dd anyway, but only if they had their parasitic nova maxed.
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=929114001&dateline=1398892224[/SIGPIC]
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    As with any other human comunity a large part of the more established and higher leveled playerbase seems to have become mentally arthritic and dogmatic... Yeah, an herc seems to have become the established norm at a certain level range, much in the same way as second clerics in runs where they are not needed. Many posters don't even seem to care to justify their position from the point of view of gameplay, and merely point to the consensus of their peers as evidence enough that their views are correct and all others must be wrong. In an enviroment in which efficiency has been used to justify instances only be run by people whose skills/gears/level is absolute overkill and the ubergeared elite threads on PvE as if access was something to be earned, is little wonder that such a spirit prevails. People that don't actually PvP now set their sights on the game's most difficult to obtain gear just so they can do the same old runs even more mechanically, and uncertainty seems to have become anathema on a game that is suposed to simulate adventure...

    I have never looked at another player's gear for any other purpose than to learn about the game or to satisfy my curiosity, and the idea that i would require someone to conform to whatever standard seems sickening to me. All i care about is that they're willing to give a run a try. This is the reason that even when i've been involved in guilds i have always made my runs with PUGs. Yes, there's a good chance you'll have one or two fail players in squad, but odds are also good one or two will know what they're doing. The fun part is finding out which group will prevail. Other than perhaps a couple of lazy afternoons i would probably dislike the idea of doing all runs with the same tried and dependable crew, instances being nothing but mechanical affairs... Then again, i play to have fun.

    Yes, i'm well aware not having an herc will mean dealing with a bias. It's also a challenge. This burgueois trend to see the game as accumulation of wealth seems to obviate the fact tools are merely means to an end. I try to acquire gear so i can run instances, not the other way around. I may never get to the point where i'll be able to actually enjoy PvP on a good footing but then again, i'll stop playing the second it is no longer fun. And since i really dislike the role of pet cleric an herc is not a choice for me, especially when it would require months of grinding. So you all can keep playing according to what everyone expects, i'll try to have fun in the meantime.
  • Oneji - Heavens Tear
    Oneji - Heavens Tear Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    This should be renamed... "another veno with/without herc thread"

    /deadhorse

    By the power invested in me, I hereby give you another +1b:thanks.
    MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    As with any other human comunity a large part of the more established and higher leveled playerbase seems to have become mentally arthritic and dogmatic... Yeah, an herc seems to have become the established norm at a certain level range, much in the same way as second clerics in runs where they are not needed. Many posters don't even seem to care to justify their position from the point of view of gameplay, and merely point to the consensus of their peers as evidence enough that their views are correct and all others must be wrong. In an enviroment in which efficiency has been used to justify instances only be run by people whose skills/gears/level is absolute overkill and the ubergeared elite threads on PvE as if access was something to be earned, is little wonder that such a spirit prevails. People that don't actually PvP now set their sights on the game's most difficult to obtain gear just so they can do the same old runs even more mechanically, and uncertainty seems to have become anathema on a game that is suposed to simulate adventure...

    I have never looked at another player's gear for any other purpose than to learn about the game or to satisfy my curiosity, and the idea that i would require someone to conform to whatever standard seems sickening to me. All i care about is that they're willing to give a run a try. This is the reason that even when i've been involved in guilds i have always made my runs with PUGs. Yes, there's a good chance you'll have one or two fail players in squad, but odds are also good one or two will know what they're doing. The fun part is finding out which group will prevail. Other than perhaps a couple of lazy afternoons i would probably dislike the idea of doing all runs with the same tried and dependable crew, instances being nothing but mechanical affairs... Then again, i play to have fun.

    Yes, i'm well aware not having an herc will mean dealing with a bias. It's also a challenge. This burgueois trend to see the game as accumulation of wealth seems to obviate the fact tools are merely means to an end. I try to acquire gear so i can run instances, not the other way around. I may never get to the point where i'll be able to actually enjoy PvP on a good footing but then again, i'll stop playing the second it is no longer fun. And since i really dislike the role of pet cleric an herc is not a choice for me, especially when it would require months of grinding. So you all can keep playing according to what everyone expects, i'll try to have fun in the meantime.

    And I agree with this as well(If I am reading correctly). Alot of the player player base has fallen into to the mental brainwashing of higher levels players. Simple things like only being able to get Niravana squads unless your 5aps or minimum 3aps(correct me if I am wrong please). And only being a pro veno unless you have herc. Personally I play to have fun, not to live up to some expectations a group of gamers came up with in there basement.
  • Yishuin - Sanctuary
    Yishuin - Sanctuary Posts: 153 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Its fun to still see some people saying so much nonsense about veno with or without herc.

    A veno without herc is, for almost all of you, an undergeared veno! thats your opinion right?

    For all of you, what is the herc for? best DDing pet? best tank pet? both?

    Ill be honest : for me the herc is the best tank pet but thats all. Its not the best DDing pet. Almost all pet are pretty good for DDing (maybe im wrong here but i dont think Herc over DD all the other pet).

    You all see venomancers as something it wasnt ment to be. Venomancer are a DDing class wich has some powerful debuffs. And? and thats all. Of course Herc can tank but this way the veno has to heal his pet almost all the fight and cannot help the squad as it should with its debuff and spells.

    My opinion : Barb are getting lazy everywhere. They all want to let the herc tank cause they are afraid they cant tank properly. I think those kind of barbs should start to learn to play and let the veno do the job they are made for. Ive seen a lot of barbs very bad at tanking (i mean keeping aggro) in 80-90+ squad (not lvl 100+ with crazy bm/sin with -int gear) but the good barbs exist. Some know when they have to ask a spark from the veno in the squad, they know how to use their skills, they simply know how to play.


    To say it fast : barbs are now lazy to tank and cause of that they are getting badder and badder at keeping aggro so they let their veno friend with so powerfull herc doing the job while they afk auto attack on bosses. Itsd sad but thats what i see most of the time.

    Now unless i find a barb prooving me im wrong in game (im not interested in reading things like "im very good, i dont have problem, etc...") I will think that about almost all high lvl barbs who enjoy the laziness of letting a herc tanking.

Categories