Common Misconceptions

Desdi - Sanctuary

I'm tired of the constant argument about "Herc'd Venos" and "Non-herc'd Venos". Please got find the related thread in the Venomancer sub-forum. I'm not going to write that all the facts that have been stated there.

I don't care what pet the Venomancers are using as long as they fulfill their job.
I don't care who is tanking in the instance as long as we can have a fun run with lots of action. Even a death or two or a mistake is fine with me when it turns out to be funny. I don't care if it's a high level Barbarian or three Venomancers on an Armoured Bear.

Hercules or not, a Venomancer's job in a squad is to lure, debuff, pass chi(when needed), deal damage, take on guard(s)/walker(s)/add(s) (because they are usually the most suitable for the job). If they manage to do all that, which is their natural role, I will be happy regardless of the class I'm playing that moment. If they are able to tank the bosses because we lack a Barbarian or the tank calss is a low level, I will be happy regardless of the pet the Venomancer is using. If I can save the Barbarian some/all repair costs I will be happy, especially if it's one of my friends.

What I hate is Barbarians who QQ about their repair costs. I have a Barbarian myself. I do BHs with him. If I was afraid of the repair bill I wouldn't have made a Barbarian to begin with.
People who QQ because they can't find tank to do their BH. If you can't do the BH today, you can do it tomorrow. If you can't level up today, you can do it tomorrow. You character won't disappear you know.
People who expect you to do your best in squad in order to make their life easier when they don't give a damn about doing the same. You know we can all pay the Barbarian's repair cost just like we share the wine price, then have a fast run instead of wait and run slow behind a Hercules.

^ These are probably the main reasons Hercules is so demanded nowadays.
Back when it was first released it was just a luxury and in some PW versions it still is. I've heard there's even one which doesn't have the legendary pets implemented.

I have both Hercules and Phoenix on another PW. I love them. They are great. I absolutely enjoyed soloing TT and many other things. I didn't buy them here. I went through the game without them. I still enjoyed the game to its fullest. I did tons of FB, TT runs whith friends and random squads. I've even had FCC and almost did a World Boss (but then we discovered he had been killed but another faction before us). I kept being invited in those and having fun. I helped in a lot of FBs/BHs and Bosses (as tank or as DD). I've been praised for doing my job well even without a Hercules.
Conclusion? Hercules is not a must have in order to play.

Yes I do agree that a good Venomancer will want/buy a Hercules to go even further with their abilities but this doesn't make every Herc'd Venomancer good.
I'm sorry but in two moths of extensive BH and TT runs I've done this summer I've squaded with about 30 Venomancers who owned a Hercules. 25 Of them didn't know how to play and handle their pets properly. We even were lead close to squad wipes (I will not go in detail) or simply the Venomancer just spammed Venomous Scarab. Five out of the 30 were aware of their skills, occassionaly did some Amp'ing or passed chi. Two out of the 30 knew how to play their class and take advantage of every skill properly.
So, I'm sorry but whenever I see a herc'd Venomancer the first thing that will cross my mind is "S/he's probably a bad Veno, let's hope I'm wrong".

I'm not against Hercules, I'm not against people asking for it. I'm not against Hercules's existence (though the looks bother me). I'm against people judging a Venomancer's ability and skills by the pet they use and most of all I hate people who are rude to Venomancers just because they didn't or chose not to buy a Hercules. You don't know what's going on in that person's life. You can't go on and say "go charge zen and buy one" or "go farm and buy one".

And I'm not hurt about this whole thing because I'm one of them. Venomancer is the class I hate the most just because of how many bad players exist out there. A Venomancer is one of those classes that will ruin the squad if they are bad players. At least a bad Cleric can still throw a heal or two on you and save you.


to the OP -> Your statements are generally correct but you missed some things. I've read everyone's post though and all that needed to be said, has been said.

Yishuin - Sanctuary

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

5. A herc is a sign of a good veno, at higher levels if a veno still doesn't have a herc it's probably because the veno is bad.

laughed a lot at that. My veno is lvl 75 without herc! why? cause it costs a ****** 60m or around that to buy all the SoF. So that means im bad at playing veno = LOL

Youre lvl 100 but you are stupid

Allisandre - Sanctuary

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

What I hate is Barbarians who QQ about their repair costs. I have a Barbarian myself. I do BHs with him. If I was afraid of the repair bill I wouldn't have made a Barbarian to begin with.

One of my other characters is an 82 barb. It's got decent gear and tanking a full 69 instance only costs about 7k in repairs. Maybe 12k if the squad really sucks. When I think about how many pots the cleric went through, this is an extremely small number.

As for the rest of your post, I agree entirely. I will work to get a herc, but it's not going to take priority over having fun playing the way I am now. And I can still do the things that I need to do during the instances just fine without a herc. On my barb and cleric I have been on several FCC runs without herc'ed venos and they were quite pleasant and we did not struggle with anything.

In response to Kiyoshi, on number 8, You do realise that What I'm saying is that the others don't actually increase flying speed right? Why the hell would I mention a skill in that tlist that actually does? If a barb, with speed gear in tiger form has a base speed of 8. His aeorgear is NOT going to add +3 to and and give him a flying speed of 11m/sec. Rather it is going to add the +3 to the base value of 5 to make it 8m/sec. Of course based on the arrogance you have already shown, I have little hope that this clarification will make any sense to you, and you will just spout more nonsense.

Carnica - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Will your skills and experience help a scorpion or magmite or glacial walker hold aggro against DD classes? Highly doubtful. Not even hercs can hold aggro at some point when archers/sins/BM's do so much dps, but people wanting herc veno's are certainly not in the wrong. If you can afford a nix you can definitely afford a herc, though it seems your ego has trouble not taking personally people prefering a herc veno over you with your likely crappy ground/instance pet. *shrugs*

Think Shadou with some Herc skills, not magmite. And where do you get off talking about my ego? I don't take it personal, I just get annoyed that so many people DEMAND a Herc, and will boot a veno from the squad if she doesn't have one.

On another note, yes I've seen crappy venos with Hercs. They toss Venomous Scarab and heal their pet - and that is all they do. I've also seen venos do a party-wipe by luring with their Herc with Reflect on. Hercs are nice pets, they have good skills - but they cannot replace a Veno knowing what to do and how to use their skills.

Allisandre - Sanctuary

Almost forgot to reply to this one the other day. I remembered while I was updating stuff.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

3. BH does give you spirit, I don't get where you get the idea that BH gives you XP without giving you spirit.
BH gives you spirit yes, but the quests with BH on the side gives you a LOT more. My Psychic was able to MASTER all of his skills as he was able to earn them by putting BH second. I leveled another Psychic using BH and was only able to learn maybe half that.

4. Go get rank 9 without cash shopping.
Who says I need rank 9 to be a good player and enjoy the game? Also, I have seen several people that are very good at merchanting and have everything without spending any RL money in the game. I wouldn't be surprised to see one of them get Rank 9 before you do.

5. A herc is a sign of a good veno, at higher levels if a veno still doesn't have a herc it's probably because the veno is bad.
This statement is just bad all over.

7. It helps hold aggro though
I don't deny that do I?

8. No one over level 60 thinks that's true.
I am speaking mainly to the individuals that do it solely to level fast in the lower levels and do not do normal quests or solo in order to learn how to actually play the game.

xixiri

2. Exactly, let me pull. xD I hate it when people with Zeal steal my job. :c Sure it's faster... But still... T_T I hate Zeal, lol.

3. This depends on the player. Idiots who don't even TRY to learn their class won't be good at it, no matter how they lvl. I lvled fast with dailies and I do know my job. :P When I BH with other Venos, I'm usually the only one that gives spark, brambles the tank and amps bosses. xD Most of them never heard about Amplify damage.

4. I agree with this. Only showoff freaks and elite PVPers spend thousands of dollars on this game. I only spent about 20 dollars as a newbie because I wanted fashion and mount -_-; I saved up for my Herc ingame and I'm happy with my TT gear. I never die, unless I have bad lag. x)

5. Agree or not, people want Herc'd Venos in high lvl squads. :S Sad, but true.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

1. Barbs tanking in 59. All of the bosses have magical attacks and barbs just don't have any decent magical defense.

And I have Alacrity, which means the bosses don't get to use their magic attack. Or am I missing something? b:question

Seriously though, the first time I did my FB59 I tanked the bosses easily and never thought much of it. It wasn't until about 10 levels later I was doing another FB59 with a group of high-levels and they had brought special armours for each of the various bosses that I was first introduced to the belief that Magic Mobs = Barb Death.

Allisandre - Sanctuary

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

And I have Alacrity, which means the bosses don't get to use their magic attack. Or am I missing something? b:question

Seriously though, the first time I did my FB59 I tanked the bosses easily and never thought much of it. It wasn't until about 10 levels later I was doing another FB59 with a group of high-levels and they had brought special armours for each of the various bosses that I was first introduced to the belief that Magic Mobs = Barb Death.

I won't pretend to know what the attack rate of bosses is, PWDatabase didn't have the info when I looked.

I do know, however, that Alacrity at level 10 can only be cast every 9 seconds. Even with the Demon version it's 7 seconds. I am quite positive of two things...
1. the boss will hit you more often than that.
2. I am quite certain that even if you were able to match the timing of casting alacrity with the bosses attacks, (i.e. Alacrity without cooldown time), the boss would be nearly dead by the time you did.

The point is, that you don't HAVE to have a barb to tank these bosses, other classes can perform the job just as well. Keep in mind, a Barb has about 3k mag Def at this level range where a Wizard will have 9k AND skills to boost it even more in some cases.

Don't spend 20 minutes looking for a barb for BH59 when you've got a good wizard and a cleric or two already is my point.

SugarPrinces - Sanctuary

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

2. The veno pulls. With the addition of genies, it is possible for other classes to pull. HOWEVER, if you have a veno in the squad, let them pull. If you decide that you wish to pull with your genie instead, then discuss it beforehand. Many a party is wiped because the veno goes to pull and some other player decides that he/she will instead.

Oh god i cannot count the number of times i've had this happen.. i'll go to lure a mob with my pet, and some idiot with a zeal wont be payin attention to my pet walkin past him and go lure, sometimes a completely different mob and the party leaves the one i lured all for me and my pet to deal with as they attack the other one...

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

3. Do BH's to level up. While BH is a great tool to level, and is awesome for filling that gap in the higher levels, leveling exclusively with BH is just going to make life harder for you. Sure you can get from 0 to 60 in 5 days, but what have you learned? Now you've got a huge pile of skills to learn and no money or spirit needed to learn them. For venomancers it is especially hard keeping the pets caught up with your level. Do your quests first, and fill in the space after quests with BH. You'll play better when you know how to play your character and have the skills you need to not fail. (NOTE: Despite the arguments, you learn more about your characters skills soloing in the lower levels than you do in BH squads. Once you have achieved the higher levels, BH is a necessary part of leveling because it basically replaces the tedium of grinding. By this point you should know how to play your character for the most part. You'd be surprised at how many don't. (oh wait, you do know, look at all the QQ threads on failed BH runs.))

Yup, i still have about 5 skills that need about 2 levels of upgrading cuz i made that mistake in the 60's range and didnt farm enough coin to pay for the skillups.. and my pet was stuck about 8 levels behind me for quite a while too till i hit up room 4 for a few days.

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

5. A venomancer is worthless if she doesn't have a herc. Yes the herc is good, but it's not that exclusive anymore. The abilities of the herc were nerfed many months ago and it is much more difficult for a herc to hold aggro. The only difference between a walker and a herc at level 90 is about 1200hp and the skills. My walker will actually take aggro from an equally leveled herc if I'm not careful. So knock it off and let non-herced venos do FCC ect.

Thank YOU!! god its annoying when you see a WC for a tt run and you whisp the person and first thing they ask when you say veno is "U have herc?".. and when my answer is no i either get some polite bullsh** about suddenly being full, or a nice honest person who'll say basically "Sorry we only want herc'd venos".. regardless of the fact that my main tank pet (valorian from bh59 leveled to 70+) has regularily pulled aggro off barbs my own level in tt & bh runs if im not careful.

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

6. The squad got wiped at 'X' boss because the cleric wan't healing everyone. Clerics seems to get blamed a lot for people dying, especially at bosses. Never mind that the archer/assasin/blademaster was going all out in an effort to prove how OP they were and take aggro from the barb. What usually happens is that the cleric is focused on healing the barb, someone without enough HP to tank gets aggro, and pandemonium ensues. When you take aggro, it resets the values. Also, there's is some delay in seeing that a person is taking aggro and noticing their hp drop, selecting said individual, and then beginning the healing process. Typically, they die, and the aggro goes to the next individual dealing a lot of damage. Give the clerics a break and pay attention to how you are fighting and what you are aggroing. (Also keep in mine that hyper-leveled clerics often have sucky heal skills because they can't afford to level them)

Well seeing as i have a cleric alt ive dealt with this a few times first hand.. some putz thinks hes immortal and runs in and aggros a whole room of like 10 mobs thinkin i'll just keep him alive, not realizing that in most cases cleric heals arent instant full heals and if hes takin damage faster then i can heal, hes gonna die, regardless of how many IH's i get stacked on him etc. Some of the best of the worst dont even properly get aggro from all the mobs they get the attention of, and as soon as i hit a heal i get a handful of mobs come straight at me and kill me in seconds with the rest of the party soon to follow, yet somehow its still the clerics fault they wiped..

KategoryC - Lost City

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

5. A herc is a sign of a good veno, at higher levels if a veno still doesn't have a herc it's probably because the veno is bad.

Being HA meelee, I can tank all bosses and take aggro from any herc and venos with comparable refines. What for would I need a herc?

I have no trouble getting fcc squads, since people know I can do all pulls and usually a sin/archer/BM tanks anyway. A few months ago I would have said you are just a lazy barb, but now you arent tanking anymore anyway, unless you have claws. So whats your point?

Actually I wonder why all the herc venos remain relatively calm after the recent patches. I think they have been screwed over quite badly, and their pets are rather pointless now.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i learn from a very different time (in game) then you. i started the game on the first weekend it was out... and was more or less in the top 10% (level wise) of the game. most of my learning came from fbs... just cause there is so many of them and so little people to actually do them. i probably never really grinded until those death knights next to 1k.

Nice. But I see not how that disproves my point. You still had to learn how things worked at some point (even if you played on an earlier PW version).

And if this was your first PWI version, then we aren't that far apart. I joined at Client Version 24... which was by no means the start of the PWI servers, but compared to the current patch, yeah, I've been around awhile. XD

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

there is actually nothing wrong with oracles... provided you actually learn all the skills afterwards. my sin was babied from 0-90 by an 100+ arch/veno/cleric and bh100 exp cubes... his weapon progression went from lvl 10 supply dagger to 43 mold dagger to 80 mold to tt99 gold. i learned everything on my sin in fb79/89/frost... with no quests. and now whenever anyone wanted me for anything... they don't just ask if you wanna come.... they ask you wanna come on your sin.

Of course you can learn things without questing, at least if you've been around for awhile and know the basic game mechanics. You also need common sense for that, of course, which you clearly seem to have. Some people couldn't pull off what you did. And you have to admit that a lot of Oracle abusers are probably of the "I-got-through-the-game-on-daddy's-credit-card" variety.

But that kinda brings me to my other point: When, exactly, did this game stop being about the play experience? The ambiance of questing in various changing locales? What I'm trying to say is, why do some people feel this need to skip the ride instead of enjoying it?

Honestly, do you think I'd still be only 91 after almost 2 years if I wasn't taking my time and enjoying it? Why is endgame so important anyway? Seems to me the only perks of endgame are to do massively irritating and time-consuming instances for super-gear in order to... do more massively irritating and time-consuming instances? See, I don't get it. Maybe it's all leading up to PVP? Personally, I stopped caring about PVP around the time I realized that I'd never beat the Daddy's-Credit-Card crowd.

I'm sorry... you have every right to use the mechanics the game provides for you (in your sin's case, Oracles), but I have every right to shake my head and sigh at the concept. It is my opinion that if you're too impatient to actually play and enjoy the early stages of this game, then it's time to find a new MMO.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

a herc/nix to a veno is like a cv to an archer. the weapon doesn't make the archer... but you can bet that any named archer will have an cv (or better).... same logic. yea... herc/nix is expensive... but any named veno will have them. while its not good to judge a veno by the pet... the pet is a good indicator of the effort put in to the veno.

Let me counter with an argument that, according to some, I seem to have gained a mild rep for (through no wish of my own).

Y'know how I said up there that I like to enjoy the ride and take it slow? Well I do, but I acknowledge that eventually everyone hits endgame and that they should find something to entertain themselves. For me, that "something" is overlooked gear, stats, or strategies... including pets.

My veno is probably my most experimental character. She sports a LA build (back when that was still "cool," before people discovered HA venos), though I plan to integrate an arcane set into her inventory at some point. The most "tanklike" build among her pets probably belongs to her Overclocked Mechcrab or Rhinodrake Megalith (excluding her turtle). Her only two pets which aren't common mobs are her tabby and her pup (both self-caught). Why would I want to summon a big, ugly yellow blob to tank for me? Oh, it's a herc. Big deal. I only see them every freakin day.

I just wish style weren't dead, is all. I have no interest in being Pure-Dex-building, Heaven-Shatterer-weilding, Black-Fash-wearing PVP Archer #90647901694735790791432. Is that a crime? Maybe not, but some people seem to think I should just get out of their sight if I can't tow the line of statistical perfection. And Hercs are pretty much the apex of statistical perfection that everyone "needs" in this game.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Yishuin - Sanctuary wrote: »

laughed a lot at that. My veno is lvl 75 without herc! why? cause it costs a ****** 60m or around that to buy all the SoF. So that means im bad at playing veno = LOL

Youre lvl 100 but you are stupid

herc is considered a gear to a veno... so yes... you have second rate gear. you could have first class skills for all that matter... but a veno with first rate gear and skills will always be perfered over you.

KategoryC - Lost City wrote: »

Being HA meelee, I can tank all bosses and take aggro from any herc and venos with comparable refines. What for would I need a herc?

I have no trouble getting fcc squads, since people know I can do all pulls and usually a sin/archer/BM tanks anyway. A few months ago I would have said you are just a lazy barb, but now you arent tanking anymore anyway, unless you have claws. So whats your point?

Actually I wonder why all the herc venos remain relatively calm after the recent patches. I think they have been screwed over quite badly, and their pets are rather pointless now.

i am going to come out and say it... you can't tank all bosses... not even before the patch. and any half assed archer can take aggro off a herc (not to mention all the 2-3 aps or above users)... nothing special.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Let me counter with an argument that, according to some, I seem to have gained a mild rep for (through no wish of my own).

Not to put you down or anything... but how much is your physical attack right now? around 8-10k... maybe 11k toward the high end. 10-11k is toward my low end... while my high end breaks 14k. and guess what... 14k is below the low end of over a dozen archers on the server. these archers wielding +12cvs or rank 8 possibily doubles your damage... so its safe to say there is no way you can stand up against them in a even match. go take a look at the archers' ranking page and you'll notice everyone on the rankings either have a cv or rank 8... exception taken for those who quit before packs came out. the most feared archers in pvp/tw will have a cv/rank8 (maybe an orange weapon - rarely).

herc is a gear for the veno... and any top ranking veno will have the best of gears... herc/nix included. thats not to say you will need a herc to survive the game... if you are satisfy being an average run of the mill veno... they by all means... don't get a herc. but if you are striving for that most feared veno spot... your gonna need a herc/nix... among other things thats gonna cost a herc/nix 10 times over.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

3. bh is actually a great way to learn your class. whats solo grind going to teach you about skills?

Yeah, I work hard for my money. I inherited about $200,000 a day... all I needed to was pick up my quest (the envelope delivered to me), go to the instance (drive to my lawyers office), go inside the instance and kill a few mobs (walk in the door and talk to the receptionist) and then kill a boss (get that stupid lawyer to shut up so I can sign the papers and leave with the check), then turn in my quest to collect the reward (go to the bank and cash my check).

I don't need to work 40 hours a week to know what hard work really is or to appreciate the value of a dollar. I don't need to take my time to learn how to do something. All I need to do is read a few books and I could be a doctor or lawyer. I also know what it's like to earn something with hard work. I do it every day. b:chuckle

SugarPrinces - Sanctuary

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

while herc does not make a veno good... a good veno will have a herc... its just how the games work. decent/good players will always get the best of everything... and herc is at the top of its class.

Umm yeah sure ok, so by that logic people that cannot afford to spend $100 a month on a free to play game are "worse" players then ones that can?? go check the veno forum or even catshops for about how much it costs for a herc.. cheapest ive seen SoF around is 10k, and you need 9999 of them to make a herc, so 10,000 x 9,999 = 99,990,000, and thats assuming you can find enough catshops selling.. personally i can think of ALOT better things to spend almost 100mil on in this game.. not to mention the fact that unless you charge zen and sell gold getting 100mil coin is going to take a VERY long time no matter how good u are at farming/catshopping/whatever. so lets assume you buy the battle pet pack from the botique, and assume its NOT going to be a gamble at what you get from the pack and it gives you the max of 50 SoF, and not Nix feathers.. at 50 silver per pack thats 1 silver per SoF (tho you're unlikely to get a full 50), 9,999 silver, or 100 gold, to make a herc, aka $100.. i am NOT paying $100-$400 (most packs ar not gonna give you 50, more like 20, 10 on a bad day) for digital pixels when i can get a pet that does just as well for free (Walker, magmite, etc).. Lets try those calculations for buying zen and converting to coin and buying sof at 10k each. gold prices seem to have stalled at about 400k/gold, 99,990,000 coin / 400,000 = 249.97 gold.. I unno can any of you people think of something better then digital pixels to spend $250 on? like maybe your rent? or car insurance? or groceries? i sure can..

Next time you people think a veno without a herc is useless and decide to kick them from squad for not havin a herc, think of how much it costs to get one and realize ALOT of people arent exactly eager to dump a paycheck or two into a video game.. oh and feel free to "donate" $100-$250 worth of your gold to your favorite veno if they still "need" to get a herc.. no? not ready to throw your money away like that either? finally you understand..

Sorry for the rant but i'm gettin tired of being passed over or kicked from squads simply cuz i dont have a herc.. ive seen herc'd venos who still havent learned how to lure and send baby herc out at the mob in a group of mobs then click follow and not stow to have the herc come back.. dragging the whole group along with em.. But noo they're better players then me cuz they have a herc and i dont.

MeIony - Dreamweaver

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

First of all, why would I be upset if someone told me to use my Heaven Shatterer instead of my Crimson Soulsmasher? They would be right, because HS is just a better bow and it serves not only myself but my party better. I guarantee you if I am level 100+ with a +12 bow that I found outside an fb19 cave, I certainly would not be welcome in BH100s as often as I'd like.

Secondly, you must have missed the tons of worldchats that specifically "tell" dps classes to use their claws.

+1. I actually quit my archer because I knew I wasn't gonna be able to afford a HS, and therefore would be basically useless in just about everything from PVE (Instances) and PVP. It's harsh that people don't want venos without herc, but it's the truth. If we can get a herc veno, we'll probably take them over the non-herc any day. (Although I have taken a non-herc veno to FC, and there was no major issues.)

Neshilia - Dreamweaver

Looking at all that discussion about when a venomancer can be called "good" or "bad", I am asking myself why they chose the name "Venomancer" for this class and did not call it "Animal Tamer".

Any suggestions about that? b:mischievous

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Neshilia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Looking at all that discussion about when a venomancer can be called "good" or "bad", I am asking myself why they chose the name "Venomancer" for this class and did not call it "Animal Tamer".

Any suggestions about that? b:mischievous

Because "Animal Tamer" sounds too lame. Also because, pet aside, the Veno is the debuff class (read: poison) "Venom-mancer"

Neshilia - Dreamweaver

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also because, pet aside, the Veno is the debuff class (read: poison) "Venom-mancer"

At least one person got it b:pleased
Cookies for Typhyse. Who else wants some?

SugarPrinces - Sanctuary

Neshilia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Looking at all that discussion about when a venomancer can be called "good" or "bad", I am asking myself why they chose the name "Venomancer" for this class and did not call it "Animal Tamer".

Any suggestions about that? b:mischievous

Europe version we're "Beastkind Werefox"'s

Neshilia - Dreamweaver

SugarPrinces - Sanctuary wrote: »

Europe version we're "Beastkind Werefox"'s

Sshhht. Do not give away too much. b:mischievous

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...
But that kinda brings me to my other point: When, exactly, did this game stop being about the play experience? The ambiance of questing in various changing locales? What I'm trying to say is, why do some people feel this need to skip the ride instead of enjoying it?
...

EXACTLY!b:victory

When did the game become all about end-game and who the hell cares about the rest?

I've been playing since just a couple of weeks after the servers went live publicly. (Actually had closed beta keys for when they were limited to 500 people per server but because of school responsibilities, I didn't get around to making the account until later.) I have 5 clerics, ranging from 34 to 93, 3 venomancers ranging from 52 to 74, 3 barbs I currently play highest is 84 (there's a few test builds I made I'm not counting), 4 Psychics ranging from 35 to 72, 5 wizards of which all but one are at least in the 60's, and a scattered few Archers, BladeMasters, and Assasins that I haven't really gotten above 30 yet. I'm not even bothering to mention the toons that I made to work on the many guides I have enjoyed doing.

Most people that play for fun don't spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on the game, and I would venture to bet that most have more fun than those that do, scrambling to get the best gear and be the most elite on the server. I know I rarely spend money on anything other than the occasional charms (usually when a sale is going on) or when something like a n aerogear that I've been waiting to show up finally is released. I have a blast. I also do training runs for FCC with veno's that don't have hercs and I never discriminate when starting one. As it has been said, there are many more important reasons to have a veno on a run, and for me, the herc may only be an added bonus. (On several occasions it has been the point of failure because the person driving didn't know what they were doing.)

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

SugarPrinces - Sanctuary wrote: »

Umm yeah sure ok, so by that logic people that cannot afford to spend $100 a month on a free to play game are "worse" players then ones that can?? go check the veno forum or even catshops for about how much it costs for a herc.. cheapest ive seen SoF around is 10k, and you need 9999 of them to make a herc, so 10,000 x 9,999 = 99,990,000, and thats assuming you can find enough catshops selling.. personally i can think of ALOT better things to spend almost 100mil on in this game.. not to mention the fact that unless you charge zen and sell gold getting 100mil coin is going to take a VERY long time no matter how good u are at farming/catshopping/whatever. so lets assume you buy the battle pet pack from the botique, and assume its NOT going to be a gamble at what you get from the pack and it gives you the max of 50 SoF, and not Nix feathers.. at 50 silver per pack thats 1 silver per SoF (tho you're unlikely to get a full 50), 9,999 silver, or 100 gold, to make a herc, aka $100.. i am NOT paying $100-$400 (most packs ar not gonna give you 50, more like 20, 10 on a bad day) for digital pixels when i can get a pet that does just as well for free (Walker, magmite, etc).. Lets try those calculations for buying zen and converting to coin and buying sof at 10k each. gold prices seem to have stalled at about 400k/gold, 99,990,000 coin / 400,000 = 249.97 gold.. I unno can any of you people think of something better then digital pixels to spend $250 on? like maybe your rent? or car insurance? or groceries? i sure can..

Next time you people think a veno without a herc is useless and decide to kick them from squad for not havin a herc, think of how much it costs to get one and realize ALOT of people arent exactly eager to dump a paycheck or two into a video game.. oh and feel free to "donate" $100-$250 worth of your gold to your favorite veno if they still "need" to get a herc.. no? not ready to throw your money away like that either? finally you understand..

Sorry for the rant but i'm gettin tired of being passed over or kicked from squads simply cuz i dont have a herc.. ive seen herc'd venos who still havent learned how to lure and send baby herc out at the mob in a group of mobs then click follow and not stow to have the herc come back.. dragging the whole group along with em.. But noo they're better players then me cuz they have a herc and i dont.

lets see... if i remember correctly it took me a bit more then 2 weeks during my late 8x stage to make enough to buy my gf her nix.... no cash spent. although i did sell my secondary bow and armor along with some other things just to afford it. a nix and herc cost the same... if i can make enough for a nix... i can make enough for a herc. and this is back when barb/clerics demand first pick... and i am a dd so running tt is out of the question.

i never kicked a veno from my squad just because she didn't have a herc/nix... simply cause i don't give a ****. but a veno given similar skills... the one with a herc/nix will always be more versatile in any sitution.

i am start to get the feeling that what some people are expecting to be a bad *** veno without a herc/nix. there is just no way for that to happen... if you don't have both of the pet... just settle for the position of an average veno. i am only an average archer in a competitive arena at best... and yet the coins to get my bow to where it is can buy a herc and a nix. what i am trying to say... is if you don't have the coins to get top of the line gears for your character... then know your place... and stay there until you do have the coins (merchant or zen).

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not to put you down or anything... but how much is your physical attack right now? around 8-10k... maybe 11k toward the high end.

Pah... slightly less than that, I think. XD I'm at work so I can't get on right now to check, though. :P

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

10-11k is toward my low end... while my high end breaks 14k. and guess what... 14k is below the low end of over a dozen archers on the server. these archers wielding +12cvs or rank 8 possibily doubles your damage... so its safe to say there is no way you can stand up against them in a even match. go take a look at the archers' ranking page and you'll notice everyone on the rankings either have a cv or rank 8... exception taken for those who quit before packs came out. the most feared archers in pvp/tw will have a cv/rank8 (maybe an orange weapon - rarely).

I'm sorry. I'm legitimately sorry... but am I supposed to be impressed here? Really it all speaks to me of a giant e-peen-waving contest.

We've already established that I don't do serious PVP because, no, I'm not going to stack up to those archers. I don't want to. I don't care. It would bore me to tears to strive for that kind of statistical perfection. And asking me anything about who tops the rankings would be akin to asking me anything about (American) football - I know nothing about the subject, because the subject is irrelevant to me.

As far as squads go... I don't go on Nirvana runs, I don't go on TT3-for-profit runs (or rather, I didn't when TT3 was feasibly possible). I don't go on Lunar runs. It's safe to say that I don't "compete" for squad space very often, if at all. But even if I was... if the squad leader would give me a statistical inquisition or kick me from squad if they found a "better" DD... I don't want to play with that person to begin with. Except in a scenario where the entire squad would wipe if I were present versus a "proper" archer (and good luck finding such a scenario), I fail to see where people are justified in this kind of prejudice.

The members of your squad are not a collection of stats you can just harness to a particular purpose. They're people. I won't squad with anyone who ignroes that fact.

At the very least, I'm sure you agree with me that common sense is far more important than gear and stats. At least I know how to play my class properly, which is more than a good portion of Oracle Noobs can say (particularly tideborns, but you get my point I think).

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

herc is a gear for the veno... and any top ranking veno will have the best of gears... herc/nix included. thats not to say you will need a herc to survive the game... if you are satisfy being an average run of the mill veno... they by all means... don't get a herc. but if you are striving for that most feared veno spot... your gonna need a herc/nix... among other things thats gonna cost a herc/nix 10 times over.

Basically apply my comments from above to the equivalent for venos and you have my opinion on this. XD

KategoryC - Lost City

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i am going to come out and say it... you can't tank all bosses... not even before the patch. and any half assed archer can take aggro off a herc (not to mention all the 2-3 aps or above users)... nothing special.

Well, hercs cant tank all bosses neither. On the other hand I can tank bosses which a herc cannot tank. Also Im well aware that an archer might steal aggro from me. My point was, that even I, a meelee veno, can grab aggro from a herc. And I can tank better.

We could continue the thought and make me demon and throw -int and claws at me. Wheres your herc now?

So In my opinion I would rather invest the money for a herc in refines/shards, since it would net me more damage (meelee, that is) than the pet itself.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

KategoryC - Lost City wrote: »

Well, hercs cant tank all bosses neither. On the other hand I can tank bosses which a herc cannot tank. Also Im well aware that an archer might steal aggro from me. My point was, that even I, a meelee veno, can grab aggro from a herc. And I can tank better.

We could continue the thought and make me demon and throw -int and claws at me. Wheres your herc now?

So In my opinion I would rather invest the money for a herc in refines/shards, since it would net me more damage (meelee, that is) than the pet itself.

The difference is that you... a melee veno need a cleric (in addition to yourself)... while a herc only need the veno. Thats two spots taken instead of 1 in a squad of 6 if the boss is herc-tankable.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

I do know, however, that Alacrity at level 10 can only be cast every 9 seconds. Even with the Demon version it's 7 seconds. I am quite positive of two things...
1. the boss will hit you more often than that.
2. I am quite certain that even if you were able to match the timing of casting alacrity with the bosses attacks, (i.e. Alacrity without cooldown time), the boss would be nearly dead by the time you did.

The bosses do hit more often, but that's with physical attacks, so they're not a problem. The magic attacks, however, come in regular 10 second intervals. It's usually fairly straight-forward to block them all with Alacrity level 8 or higher.

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

The point is, that you don't HAVE to have a barb to tank these bosses, other classes can perform the job just as well. Keep in mind, a Barb has about 3k mag Def at this level range where a Wizard will have 9k AND skills to boost it even more in some cases.

Don't spend 20 minutes looking for a barb for BH59 when you've got a good wizard and a cleric or two already is my point.

I agree with you, but I'd add that this is true for a lot of common, "We can't do this without (whatever)," beliefs. For example, I'm tired of hearing about how we're going to need 2 Clerics to beat (whatever), or how we absolutely need a 1xx, or that we need a full-squad, or that we have to wine it, etc... etc...

The problem seems to be there's a ton of players who aren't very good at rational analysis and problem solving, so they play the game according to tried-and-true scripts. That way when a party-wipe happens they have something they can look to for an explanation as to what went wrong.

It can be annoying when you're a player who doesn't play according to scripts, but at the same time it's understandable because tons of people get through life just fine by unquestioningly following the rules and instructions dictated to them by others.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

The problem seems to be there's a ton of players who aren't very good at rational analysis and problem solving, so they play the game according to tried-and-true scripts. That way when a party-wipe happens they have something they can look to for an explanation as to what went wrong.

It can be annoying when you're a player who doesn't play according to scripts, but at the same time it's understandable because tons of people get through life just fine by unquestioningly following the rules and instructions dictated to them by others.

+1, I couldn't agree more.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm sorry. I'm legitimately sorry... but am I supposed to be impressed here? Really it all speaks to me of a giant e-peen-waving contest.

We've already established that I don't do serious PVP because, no, I'm not going to stack up to those archers. I don't want to. I don't care. It would bore me to tears to strive for that kind of statistical perfection. And asking me anything about who tops the rankings would be akin to asking me anything about (American) football - I know nothing about the subject, because the subject is irrelevant to me.

As far as squads go... I don't go on Nirvana runs, I don't go on TT3-for-profit runs (or rather, I didn't when TT3 was feasibly possible). I don't go on Lunar runs. It's safe to say that I don't "compete" for squad space very often, if at all. But even if I was... if the squad leader would give me a statistical inquisition or kick me from squad if they found a "better" DD... I don't want to play with that person to begin with. Except in a scenario where the entire squad would wipe if I were present versus a "proper" archer (and good luck finding such a scenario), I fail to see where people are justified in this kind of prejudice.

Its not a matter of epeen... its a matter of competition. I have yet seem a non-random squad drop people due to lack of gear/herc... so from my perspective only random squads will drop people based on gear. Face it... random squads don't know anything about you or your skill. The only thing they can go off is the gear... and from this aspect good gear speaks wonders. Just because you got passed up for a position (for squad or guild or whatever) you can call the decision maker prejudice? What are they suppose to do? Give the position to the least qualified guy?

You are fine since you don't really care if you get passed up for stuff for your lack of gear... but aleast you aren't crying about it. I have said this before... for the run of the mill veno NO herc/nix is needed. But if the veno want to stay competitive they need to have a herc/nix. Some squads will pass up a herc-less veno cause some boss can be herc tanked... which frees up the barb/cleric to dd... which results in faster run. The arguement that other pets can tank bosses isn't valid... since we already established with herc's def and hp... its the BEST ideal tanking pet. Most people would want an ideal squad (ex. 5aps for nirv)... and if you don't fit the ideal mold prepare to get overlooked.

EDIT: Say that you are a squad leader for whatever and you wc for a dd. I showed up with my +10cv.. and some ****ing archer show up with a +12 nirv recast lunar claw who can tank all the bosses. You don't know jack **** about any one of us.... which 1 would you pick to fill that last spot?

Desdi - Sanctuary

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

The problem seems to be there's a ton of players who aren't very good at rational analysis and problem solving, so they play the game according to tried-and-true scripts. That way when a party-wipe happens they have something they can look to for an explanation as to what went wrong.

It can be annoying when you're a player who doesn't play according to scripts, but at the same time it's understandable because tons of people get through life just fine by unquestioningly following the rules and instructions dictated to them by others.

+1 as well. I agree entirely.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You are fine since you don't really care if you get passed up for stuff for your lack of gear... but aleast you aren't crying about it. I have said this before... for the run of the mill veno NO herc/nix is needed. But if the veno want to stay competitive they need to have a herc/nix. Some squads will pass up a herc-less veno cause some boss can be herc tanked... which frees up the barb/cleric to dd... which results in faster run. The arguement that other pets can tank bosses isn't valid... since we already established with herc's def and hp... its the BEST ideal tanking pet. Most people would want an ideal squad (ex. 5aps for nirv)... and if you don't fit the ideal mold prepare to get overlooked.

You seem to have missed my post. A squad requiring an herc'ed veno to tank is wasting time and being inefficient. An herc tanking requires the rest of the squad to significantly gimp their damage output... You're wasting time (your most valuable resource) to save the Barb what? 50k in repairs?