double aggression on Flesh Ream /barb skills

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I still think that a barb with lvl 11 aggro skills should be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game though. They should indeed have a skill that can always hold aggro... that's kind of the point of a tanking class, and at end-game, that should be an almost guaranteed trait.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Where did I say that? You're putting it in double quotation marks like I direcly said it. I never said that, nor do you even know how to use single or double quotation marks properly.
Click on the red dot.

That's beyond misrepresentation. That's just a lie.

You also have major issues with reading comprehension. It seems English is your primary language, so I can't fault you on that. You just fail to understand how specifically I use words because you throw them around to fill your points because you think producing more text equates to a more valid point, instead it reads as contrived BS.




Oh my god. If your roof is leaking you don't fix the pluming under the floor. Apparently this concept is too adult a puzzle for you to grasp.

roof and this issue are very different, you cannot equate the 2.
In a game, you have more freedom to change things, compared to real life. You cannot change the weather or what flows in your pipe in a short time, but in a game, you can. And if you can change it, you should not exclude it as a potential solution.


/facepalm

Contradict yourself much?
All I am saying is barbs can't hold aggro vs mages and classic archers , and 5 aps DDs are partly at fault for making this issue an issue. You are trying to say that 5aps DDs aren't the problem at all which is not my opinion.




Just... wow. The whole +10 orb sales and lunar weapons all came about around the same time. Highly refined lunar bows were responsible for most of the aggro theft before the -int craze. Apparently your experience is lacking. Either that or you're just plain stupid. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt...
Most barbs would rather refine their gears for hp(as their main asset) rather than weapon to hold aggro, that might be what happened and caused barbs not to keep up. Is the damage of a barb that insignificant that a +12 nirvana axe is almost equivalent to a +0 cala axe? Think about it.You said that highly refine this and highly refine that, but if the barb's weapon is not highly refined, what makes you think that they can hold aggro too? And don't tell me that a barb's damage is too low until the damage is insignificant. It is not that low at all or RoidAbuse wont refine his nirvana weapon to +12. Let a barb clarify about this, since only a barb would know.



How can you even pretend to suggest an actual fix to the mechanics when you have no clue how the threat generating system actually works. You're pulling rabbits out of your **** at this point. b:bye

Tell me how the threat generating system actually works. Even you can't be 100% sure unless you have read the game files.


If you can't state an off-topic ideal clearly, expect to be misunderstood. How anything that has to do with a cleric's skill is relevant in this thread is beyond me though.

Its airyll trying to bring up an analogy, got shot down and resorted to attacking my "arguments" without even understanding them lol

@Kupuntu I can say that the almost part is for other barb's with similar "infinite aggro" skills.(ie other barbs can steal aggro from barbs) And the concept can still fit in what he said. If he does not have that in mind, he has to be very specific. The fact that he clarified, means his wording is bad until someone else can misinterpret it.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

If you're too lazy to quote properly, I'm too lazy to respond. b:bye



My mistake, I did say that, but you're taking what I said out of context. Not very honest of you. what is this then? a response? hypocrite much?



Really?

b:chuckle b:bye

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Learn to quote?

And it was me admitting to a mistake? Something you're not capable of? b:bye

And being a hypocrite at the same time. And I can admit my mistakes, show me where I am wrong first though. b:pleasedb:pleasedb:pleased

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Quite a few times, I, as well as a number of others have pointed it out to you. Dig back through the thread if you wish... you're quite oblivious though. b:bye

No., show me where it is. Which page or even quote it if you want to. Or do you mean the time when most of you don't even read my points properly and assumed its something its not? You are quite oblivious too, it took 3-4 times quoting the same wrong thing that you said before admitting to your mistakes. b:bye

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Actually Lylfo, I brought that analogy up not to attack you, but to try and show you how every single one of your posts came across.

What's funny is that you sit here and claim I was attacking you and your argument, when all I was doing was trying to show you why nobody gave a damn what you posted because you contradicted yourself so much. You even had people come and agree with my analogy about your argument and they too said that this is what your posts seemed to be saying (Yeah, that's right. Agreed. Very few people actually turned around and blatantly said "No analogy sucks **** you." l2r)

GG. You've just proven, in one post, that you don't read, and the instant somebody disagrees with you or tries to show you how your argument is wrong, you simply accuse them of "attacking" you. Thanks. You've made my job, Michael's job (and in fact everybody else's job) a lot easier when we try and say

1) Your argument contradicts itself and is therefore flawed
2) You don't read when people try and explain this to you
3) You then resort to accusing people of attacking you and your contradictory argument

Thanks for proving that to the forums yourself rather then everybody having to explain it to you. b:cute

Sorry you wana go back to your analogy? Its here. http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=789152&page=39

Point is, even if clerics get their healing skills buffed, there is still no reason to bring a cleric into the squad simply because there is an alternative. If I(assume DD class) can solo a TT with blood paint relatively fast, what is the point of having a cleric in the squad? A cleric in squad will cut down what I'll get from the run by 50%, but the cleric might not even contribute 10% damage in the whole run.

Sorry, no one gives a damn? You replying for one, will add one to the count. not including people like Bartrack or Telarith or even Micheal_dark, sorry your argument does not hold water here b:bye

You even had people come and agree with my analogy about your argument and they too said that this is what your posts seemed to be saying (Yeah, that's right. Agreed. Very few people actually turned around and blatantly said "No analogy sucks **** you." l2r)

A person(Veins) is not people, besides read what Bartrack has to say. Thats what I am arguing for, not the analogy that you brought up.

Umm, yea. Airyll, time to give it up. Your posts aren't making any sense anymore.
You jumped from this to this
Kinda sad really, when you cannot argue for one thing, you jumped to another.

If anything, you are the one who cannot make up your mind about how you stand in this topic.

A permasparked 5aps DD should be able to generate more threat then anything else in this entire game in the shortest amount of time, meaning that even a barbarian should not be able to take aggro from them, nor keep it from them.

Why buff the barbs then? What is going to be different from before the buff? They still won't be able to hold aggro vs perma sparked DDs. Admittedly, they can start to hold aggro vs ranged DDs if you fix this issue. But where do you stand in this? You want to increase aggro just for the ranged DDs? What about people like RoidAbuse who comes in and say that he wants to increase the aggro so that he can hold aggro vs 5aps DD?
I don't see you posting anywhere against his idea of increasing aggro then. You are the one who needs to sort things out, not me.

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lol. I can't argue. Lol. Telling somebody who was famous on their debating team for being the best debater there that they can't argue. Good joke, Lylfo. Really. Especially compared to your own ****ty arguing skills. =P

Lylfo, you're so glaringly oblivious to what everybody has to tell you, it's funny. Like really.

Arguing takes the ability to know when you're wrong (which you clearly don't because you're still here arguing all your crapped up points that everybody has since crushed, belittled and called out on their stupidity) Cause you know, you look like a tard when you carry on arguing the most **** point in all of history. =P

Better yet, arguing takes the ability to know when to GeeTeeEffOh because you're wrong and making yourself look like an ****.

I reply here because I can, not because I care. There is a huge difference and you're generally quite stupid if you think that there isn't. XD However, I think I'm done with this thread. You've since derailed it beyond oblivion and it's no longer a thread about the actual topic, it's now a thread about

Lylfo: "OMG you're personally attacking me because you don't agree!!! Barbs shouldn't get their aggro fixed cause nobody's gonna squad anyway!!! This is not an issue!!!"
Everybody else: "Tard, get out of this thread."

Maybe this thread can be remade somewhere and the intelligent people can come and discuss it. That doesn't include you, Lylfo.

(And if I had been personally attacking you before, it would have looked a little more like this. Toodles~ )

lol yea, "intelligent people" like you.
ps if i derail the thread so much, what are vilkass and asperitas talking about?

b:bye wont miss you.

I just don't get why barbs should be able to hold aggro over perma-sparked DDs. If sins/fist BMs perma-spark, even at lower levels, barbs can't always keep aggro. Why change it that much?

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Kupuntu there is no line being drawn by OP, and surprisingly this did not came up earlier.
As I have said, there are 2 extreme of barbs here, and even though both said yes to this poll, they might have a very different idea on what should be done. Which is another reason why i said no to this poll. Its too general, you want to increase aggro? how much, and what do you expect out of changing this. would someone dig thru all the game files, recode everything just for a little change? I would want barbs to hold aggro vs 5 aps, that is their job/role after all. But someone liek you would come up and said no, because of x, y and z. Neither of us are right or wrong, we are jsut merely putting out our opinions. hats what ive been trying to say in this thread for so long.

Yeah, but infinite aggro isn't the thing we are looking for, which means that level 11 aggro skills shouldn't be able to hold aggro over perma-sparked, 3/2 build, +12 weapon BM with atk level shards without him capping his damage. If he could go all out except not demon spark all the time, holding aggro over any lesser DD would be too easy.

I know that I'm saying this in my every post but it still applies. Barbs should be tanks that have superior tanking buffs, aggro skills to control aggro over almost every DD and are able to take the damage boss does. Barb would be the best tank in any other sense than damage. That's something that must be left untouched even in the discussions, since that's the least probable thing to change.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Asperitas, did not mean anything to you when i said that. you were on topic, airyll is only saying what she wants to say

@Kupuntu there is no line being drawn by OP, and surprisingly this did not came up earlier.
As I have said, there are 2 extreme of barbs here, and even though both said yes to this poll, they might have a very different idea on what should be done. Which is another reason why i said no to this poll. Its too general, you want to increase aggro? how much, and what do you expect out of changing this. would someone dig thru all the game files, recode everything just for a little change? I would want barbs to hold aggro vs 5 aps, that is their job/role after all. But someone liek you would come up and said no, because of x, y and z. Neither of us are right or wrong, we are jsut merely putting out our opinions. hats what ive been trying to say in this thread for so long.

Wouldn't it be a simple case of increasing the values denoting the amount of aggro generated by barb skills?b:surrenderDo you really have to recode everything?b:question

DrDrakkentre - Lost City wrote: »

True, being a vit build tank barb it would really suck to have to change to 5 aps fist build or not have a chance in endgame squads. Some people just don't think about how hard it would be on non-hardcore cs barbs/ingenious merchants. @Lylfo, if you think skills are there to get them to endgame, then go -int claw/fist, then why exactly do you think there are demon and sage versions of skills available upto high 9x? for teh lulz?b:question

Btw im not vit build b:pleased I can hold agro well against most DDs, the rest being demon spark spamming fist bms with -int gear...

I hate telling DDs to control their damage, they shouldnt need to.

DrDrakkentre - Lost City wrote: »

Wouldn't it be a simple case of increasing the values denoting the amount of aggro generated by barb skills?b:surrenderDo you really have to recode everything?b:question

Umm I'll tell you whats the hard part.

You can increase the value, just like that. The main question is how much? You see, there are 2 extremes of barbs in this thread. Lvl 90+ barb losing aggro to 3 aps-ish BM and 100+ barb with +12 nirvana axe cant hold aggro vs 5aps DDs. Lets say I increased it, but if its too litle to matter in the 2nd case, it would be as though there is no buff to the 2nd barb. If you buff the threat generation too much, you ended up letting a +0 cala axe barb holding aggro vs 5aps perma sparked DDs. The important question here is, where do you draw the line?

My conclusion is, there is no amount of aggro added that will satisfy every barb who is saying yes in this thread. Rather, letting the aggro skill scale with something would be a much better solution. Next question will be, scale with what? And also the limit of this scale. Would barb with the most aggro be able to hold aggro vs DD with most damage? Or do you want to draw the line somewhere.

So thats the gist of what I've been trying to say in this thread. I personally thinks that barb's aggro skills should be buffed by making it depend on something scalable(example refines).

And that is the reason why I am saying no to this poll. It is too general. I can say " I want barb's aggro to be increased." and that will not help with anything.

Then the next part, why do you want to increase the barb's aggro? Is it because you want them to be the popular tank again? Or is it so that they can be more useful in a faction/friendly run? This question got some mixed response. I personally think that barb should be the popular tank again(irregardless of how impossible this is), some don't think we should ask this here.

About the fist/claw barb. I personally think of this as another solution, because they can generate tons of threat with their damage(not the kind of tanking done by a vit barb), and even if they cannot tank, they can still contribute a nice DD output to the squad. I am only mentioning this in this thread because it is still an alternative for barbs to take(irregardless of how many barbs hate this idea). And it is something that they can do now, instead of waiting for that "fix".

@Kupuntu
Btw I am personally against the idea of infinite aggro(clearing this up now), it is just something to consider(one extreme case of increasing aggro).

I would say, if you want to hold aggro over perma sparked 5 aps DD, the barb should spend as much as the DD. And scalable aggro skills fits here perfectly, (if it scales with weapons refines) if a barb wants to hold aggro over someone with +12 weapon, he should get his weapon to at least +10. I respect your opinion of not letting barbs hold aggro vs perma spark-ed DDs, but I think they should since it is their role/class.

@DrDrakkentre

@Lylfo, if you think skills are there to get them to endgame, then go -int claw/fist, then why exactly do you think there are demon and sage versions of skills available upto high 9x? for teh lulz?

1. That is just an alternative, a barb can stay as a vit barb(despite the fact that they won't be able to contribute that much) - I am not saying everyone should go for fist barb build, just merely pointing out that there is an alternative to the classic flesh ream tanking.
2. Barbs are originally meant to use axe ( I get this response soooo many times, so yes, I understand this point) so it makes sense to have lvl 11 skills for them(vit axe barbs) too.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

When you can hold aggro over everything, you might just as well just have infinite aggro. That's what I was saying but I meant it as without scaling. With scaling, barbs should be able to hold aggro over anything, if their attack power & refines were similar.

Oh yea, you got a point. I don't think that kind of infinite aggro(scalable aggro) will break the game. It makes sense for the best barb to be able to hold aggro vs best DD.To me, at least.

dont feel like reading all the pages so ill just say why not scale the aggro to how much the barbs wep is refined i think a barb with atleast a TT99 wep with it +12ed should be able to hold aggro against a 5 aps just regular atking with out sparking but i dont think they should be able to hold aggro over a 5 aps perma sparked hope you can all read this lol *yawns* time for bed for me b:bye

anwynd wrote: »

dont feel like reading all the pages so ill just say why not scale the aggro to how much the barbs wep is refined i think a barb with atleast a TT99 wep with it +12ed should be able to hold aggro against a 5 aps just regular atking with out sparking but i dont think they should be able to hold aggro over a 5 aps perma sparked hope you can all read this lol *yawns* time for bed for me b:bye

But yet I can hold aggro over +12 weaponed wizzards? Makes perfect sense! Wizzies never steal aggro from me sparked or not, so 5.0s should?

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But yet I can hold aggro over +12 weaponed wizzards? Makes perfect sense! Wizzies never steal aggro from me sparked or not, so 5.0s should?

That's because wizards aren't made to DPS. You're comparing a sprinter to a marathon runner.