double aggression on Flesh Ream /barb skills

Veins - Dreamweaver

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Let's say that level 11 cleric healing skills just didn't heal any more because everybody with +10 gear with 4 vit stones in it could heal themselves better than a cleric. (Yes I know they technically can't, but the point is I'm trying to get you to realise why you're argument is so wrong.) According to your own arguments, this means cleric healing skills shouldn't be fixed. No, it just means clerics should have better gear themselves or that the people should wear crappier gear.
See? The argument doesn't hold water. You would rage if clerics were no longer needed to heal because your skills had not kept up with the game.

Stop treating barbs like they're being unreasonable to want to fix their broken skills so they have a chance at keeping up with the game, please, because you would do exactly the same thing if it was you.

Yeah, say, for example, if bloodpaint worked for every class and restored 50% of the damage you hit for instead of 10%. Who would want to bring a cleric in a squad? It relegates them to a party buffer and a really crappy DD (sound familiar?).

Bartack - Heavens Tear

Veins - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yeah, say, for example, if bloodpaint worked for every class and restored 50% of the damage you hit for instead of 10%. Who would want to bring a cleric in a squad? It relegates them to a party buffer and a really crappy DD (sound familiar?).

Bingo.

But, to stand up for Lyfo a bit, it would also be nearly pointless to attempt to rectify above situation by simply increasing clerics healing power. A true solution would have to address several factors, such as:

-What role do clerics play in squads now? Make them better dd? Even better buffs/debuffs for support?

-Do we instead decrease the cleric-breaking factor. (in this scenario bloodpaint)

-Or do we increase the challenge in game to require cleric healing for certain instances/bosses? Do clerics then get a 'big headed ego boost?' and start demanding stuff?

These are essentially the same challenges facing barbs that an adjustment in aggro wont fix either.

I think everyone's problem with Lyfo's posts is that she/he mostly only offers criticism to proposed changes (mostly constructive, to be fair), and cites current compromised solutions being utilized now in the community verses offering any creative new solutions his/her-self. C'mon Lyfo, crank up that right-hemisphere and get creative with us!

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lylfo, just please, give it up. It's getting painful to read.

Firstly, Michael never said he wanted barbs to have infinite threat generationright, but his words can mean that too.i quoted him somewhere before, nor did he say he wanted them to be able to hold aggro against a permasparked 5aps DD. In fact, the opposite. A permasparked 5aps DD should be able to generate more threat then anything else in this entire game in the shortest amount of time, meaning that even a barbarian should not be able to take aggro from them, nor keep it from them.I don't know what is your stand after reading this. Do you want to increase their aggro generation but you don't want them to be able to hold aggro vs perma-sparked people? So you think that they should not be able to hold aggro vs any 5 aps DD(all of which are perma sparkers). So what is the point of increasing their aggro then?

Secondly. Threat =/= aggro. Threat and hate is what generate aggro.is threat= hate?
Aggression = the person the monster is attackingso what does the tile of this thread means? . Aggro changes when somebody else builds up more threat/hate than the current person who has aggroI can agree with this, this is how I see it. At this point, the monster turns around and attacks the person who has now generated the most amount of threat, thus meaning the new person now has aggroor you can combine the 2 concept together and say that the person being attacked is the person with the highest aggro/threat(this is my definition in my previous posts). See the difference?I can use your definitions if you want me to, there is small difference from the word choice that I would use
Threat = what causes a monster to attack somebody
Aggro = the person who has generated the most threat out of the entire squad

People regularly confuse these two terms, but they are not the same.

Thirdly, people want this issue fixed because it's an issue and because it needs to be fixed.Why is this an issue? Why do you want it to be fixed? What do you expect to happen after it is fixed? Clearly my analogy earlier in the thread went ignored by you, when I pointed out how very flawed your thinking on this issue is. So, let's try again.sorry too many posts, i am only 1 person

Let's say that level 11 cleric healing skills just didn't heal any more because everybody with +10 gear with 4 vit stones in it could heal themselves better than a cleric. (Yes I know they technically can't, but the point is I'm trying to get you to realise why you're argument is so wrong.) According to your own arguments, this means cleric healing skills shouldn't be fixed. No, it just means clerics should have better gear themselves or that the people should wear crappier gear.Ok, I did not say that. Quote it and show me where I've said it. Maybe its your wrong interpretation. In this analogy, I would bring up, why do you want to fix the healing(aggro) skill? Other people can do without your heals(barb tank).

My point here is, even though you can heal(hold aggro) after fixing the lack of heal(aggro), what will make others want you in their parties? They can think this way " I can do it without a cleric(barb) before, why should I accept them in now and let them have a piece of the profit without any significant contribution? I can tank when there is no cleric(barb), I don't see why I need a cleric(barb) now"

This is the issue I am trying to bring up, and not force it down on other people. fixing aggro does not address this issue that well. I am sure that there are faction barbs or barbs with friends who would be more useful after the buff to the threat level. But lets say everyone wants the most efficiency when they are farming(which is something logical to assume), why bring in a barb when they can have another DD and the run would go much faster?
See? The argument doesn't hold water. You would rage if clerics were no longer needed to heal because your skills had not kept up with the game.I wouldnt lol,. I would reroll to something other than a cleric , and not come to the forums to QQ. Stop accusing me of things I won't do.

Stop treating barbs like they're being unreasonable to want to fix their broken skills so they have a chance at keeping up with the game, please, because you would do exactly the same thing if it was you.

I want PWI to fix their aggro, stop accusing me of things which I am not

and how do they keep up with the game if they cant hold aggro vs 5aps perma sparkers?

1st, please reread what I've written in previous posts.
Summary of what I want: Barbs should be able to hold aggro (sorry, but your definition is kinda off, I suggest you look at the thread title for a better definition, or tell the OP that he's using the words wrong with respect to your definition and redefine everything.) vs other DDs with similar refinements, and I am supporting a scaling increasing threat level of barb's skills, instead of a static amount. I said no to this thread's poll because it would seem that the OP meant static amount, which I have problems with.

comments are in red.

@ Veins

Yeah, say, for example, if bloodpaint worked for every class and restored 50% of the damage you hit for instead of 10%. Who would want to bring a cleric in a squad? It relegates them to a party buffer and a really crappy DD (sound familiar?).

But if you buff my healing skills, there is still no reason for them to let clerics in the squad.You want to buff my healing skills just for the sake of buffing my healing skills?

If you want to use the role argument, why are archers, BM, and even sins tanking as primary tank now? It is not their role to tank, they should maximise their DDs according to how much aggro a barb can hold.
--see how flawed this kind of thinking is? There are a lot of freedom in this game to be what you want, I support Vit Barbs and I am trying to think of something to make them useful at end game again.

Your argument, in its entirety, is "who cares?" And if you look at the poll, over 90% of the people who voted care. That's a pretty overwhelming majority.

read again, my argument is ...what ive said to Airyll above.

@Kupuntu I agree, buffing the threat level generated by barb's aggro skills would be nice in an instance run with friends. But is this the reason why everyone voted yes in this poll? Or are they thinking of another reason to buff the threat generated by barb's aggro skills.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

-Or do we increase the challenge in game to require cleric healing for certain instances/bosses? Do clerics then get a 'big headed ego boost?' and start demanding stuff?

Clerics should get better healing skills in that case. But anyway, if clerics weren't needed, there wouldn't be ragequits if the bosses were made a bit harder so bloodpaint wouldn't heal enough. All other classes would still perform their roles as they were when there were no need for clerics.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Kupuntu I agree, buffing the threat level generated by barb's aggro skills would be nice in an instance run with friends. But is this the reason why everyone voted yes in this poll? Or are they thinking of another reason to buff the threat generated by barb's aggro skills.

Is there any other reason? I honestly think there isn't. Anyone knows that 5 DDs and a cleric is better than one tank, 4 DDs and a cleric if there is no aggro-holding issues.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Lylfo I'm gonna be blunt because you don't get the picture. You're "argument" contradicts itself and you need to sort it out because it really does make you look more stupid that not and it nullifies any good points that you try and make.

Your argument AS EVERYBODY IS SEEING IT:

"So what if they fix it? Nobody is going to want to squad with you any way. So why bother? Nobody cares."

Seriously. That is what your whole argument is screaming to me and every other damned poster and this is why nobody is listening to you because you can't even make up your own mind. You say "So what if they fix it? Nobody is going to want to squad with you any way. So why bother? Nobody cares." but then you say "NO I WANT THEM TO FIX AGGRO TOOOOOOO" and it doesn't work.

When you can sort your own argument out, then maybe people will actually consider what you have to say. I didn't even read your whole post when you contradicted yourself in the way I just stated, because you have nothing worthwhile to say if you can't even sort yourself out.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bingo.

But, to stand up for Lyfo a bit, it would also be nearly pointless to attempt to rectify above situation by simply increasing clerics healing power. A true solution would have to address several factors, such as:

-What role do clerics play in squads now? Make them better dd? Even better buffs/debuffs for support?

-Do we instead decrease the cleric-breaking factor. (in this scenario bloodpaint)

-Or do we increase the challenge in game to require cleric healing for certain instances/bosses? Do clerics then get a 'big headed ego boost?' and start demanding stuff?

These are essentially the same challenges facing barbs that an adjustment in aggro wont fix either.

I think everyone's problem with Lyfo's posts is that she/he mostly only offers criticism to proposed changes (mostly constructive, to be fair), and cites current compromised solutions being utilized now in the community verses offering any creative new solutions his/her-self. C'mon Lyfo, crank up that right-hemisphere and get creative with us!

Actually what I am trying to do now is just clearing up what I am saying. Maybe it is my writing style that does not get the message to their heads but glad to see that you are looking at things from my perspective. And you are right, I would come up with the same questions to fix that "issue". Whether the fix that I come up with works or not, it should be debated.

Like someone said no to nerfing 5aps to 3.33 aps cap. I agree with him, if I cash shop /farm and even get the Nirvana pants for that last -int to get 5 aps, It would not be fair to change rules overnight.

Its like you buying a phone that claims to be able to make calls everywhere, what if you can only make calls to only America tomorrow?

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Actually what I am trying to do now is just clearing up what I am saying. Maybe it is my writing style that does not get the message to their heads but glad to see that you are looking at things from my perspective. And you are right, I would come up with the same questions to fix that "issue". Whether the fix that I come up with works or not, it should be debated.

Like someone said no to nerfing 5aps to 3.33 aps cap. I agree with him, if I cash shop /farm and even get the Nirvana pants for that last -int to get 5 aps, It would not be fair to change rules overnight.

Its like you buying a phone that claims to be able to make calls everywhere, what if you can only make calls to only America tomorrow?

You mean like when people bought hyper stones from the boutique and then the functionality of them changed over night?

Oh right..... Was that fair to people who bought them expecting them to work the way they expected? Nope

Anything can change overnight... ANYTHING.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

"So what if they fix it? Nobody is going to want to squad with you any way. So why bother? Nobody cares."

I am saying that even if you fix this issue, there are other problems still on going and any proposed solution should instead fix the "unpopular vit barb as tank"' issue.

I agree, go ahead and increase threat level. But the next question is, will it fix what causes it to be an issue in the first place?
Just because I bring it up, it does not mean I am advocating what you are saying, Airyll.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You mean like when people bought hyper stones from the boutique and then the functionality of them changed over night?

Oh right..... Was that fair to people who bought them expecting them to work the way they expected? Nope

Anything can change overnight... ANYTHING.

Hypers are different. People are so addicted to them that they don't care, and this way you use less hyper time since you don't lose the one minute every time you pause it.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You mean like when people bought hyper stones from the boutique and then the functionality of them changed over night?

Oh right..... Was that fair to people who bought them expecting them to work the way they expected? Nope

Anything can change overnight... ANYTHING.

That is true too, and I would not dismiss the "solution" but the best solution would be a win-win solution where DDs are happy and barbs are happy.

The reason you see nerf being done is if there is no other way to fix it. Like hyper stones, the use of it is not dependant on anything else. The only way to change how people would use it is to set limitations on it.

If you really think it is unfair, bring it up in the forums, and with enough people against the change, perhaps the GM would change it back or do something to it.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am saying that even if you fix this issue, there are other problems still on going and any proposed solution should instead fix the "unpopular vit barb as tank"' issue.

I agree, go ahead and increase threat level. But the next question is, will it fix what causes it to be an issue in the first place?
Just because I bring it up, it does not mean I am advocating what you are saying, Airyll.

The point is, and you've already been told this a dozen times as well:

It's not a case of whether people will take barbs more often because of a change in skill or not. The issue is that level eleven skills are broken to an extent because they cannot keep up with the changes in gear and the increase in damage. This is a problem that should be fixed because it's a problem.

It shouldn't just be left because you're a paranoid sod who says "why bother because I'm not going to squad with you anyway" (AKA you because that's seriously all I hear from you) and it shouldn't just be left because you don't see the point. Look at the forum poll. A lot of people see a point that this should be fixed because it's a problem.

Let's make it really really clear:
You can't say "don't care, won't squad with these barbs anyway, no point fixing cause people still won't squad with barbs, **** barbs" and then say "oh yeah by the way I support the idea of increasing barb's skills to get and keep aggro"
You are the biggest hypocrite to ever walk these forums if you think you can say that. And if you think you can say that, please leave this thread now.

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That is true too, and I would not dismiss the "solution" but the best solution would be a win-win solution where DDs are happy and barbs are happy.

The reason you see nerf being done is if there is no other way to fix it. Like hyper stones, the use of it is not dependant on anything else. The only way to change how people would use it is to set limitations on it.

If you really think it is unfair, bring it up in the forums, and with enough people against the change, perhaps the GM would change it back or do something to it.

I'm sorry, I'm not against the hyper stone change, I was just trying to show that it doesnt matter if you cash shop / farm / work for your items, anything can change overnight, for all we know there may not be such thing as -int gear tomorrow b:shocked

[QUOTE=Airyll - Dreamweaver;923096
It's not a case of whether people will take barbs more often because of a change in skill or not. The issue is that level eleven skills are broken to an extent because they cannot keep up with the changes in gear and the increase in damage. This is a problem that should be fixed because it's a problem.[/QUOTE]

Actually its common these days that to fix other problems instead of "making something better" they will "nerf something else". Simply because, if everyone is asking for barb aggro skills to become stronger and it happens then everyone will be asking and wanting to know why cleric or other class skills didnt get updated. So instead they end up nerfing ( in this case would be -int gear ) instead to fix the problem, because it is easier to nerf -int then it is to upgrade existing skills individually.

Bartack - Heavens Tear

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Actually what I am trying to do now is just clearing up what I am saying. Maybe it is my writing style that does not get the message to their heads but glad to see that you are looking at things from my perspective. And you are right, I would come up with the same questions to fix that "issue". Whether the fix that I come up with works or not, it should be debated.

Like someone said no to nerfing 5aps to 3.33 aps cap. I agree with him, if I cash shop /farm and even get the Nirvana pants for that last -int to get 5 aps, It would not be fair to change rules overnight.

Its like you buying a phone that claims to be able to make calls everywhere, what if you can only make calls to only America tomorrow?

I wouldn't put that past some phone companies I've worked for heh.

As to the limiting aps to some smaller number, I suggested it merely because it would be the quickest fix to a lack of fore-sight from the developers. It should be clear to almost everyone that the balances in this game were not intended to deal with perma-sparked 5aps dd.(and if they were, that's some poor designing)

Re-balancing the rest of the game around 5aps would require a much larger undertaking, with increased risk of unbalancing the rest of the game elsewhere.

Either way, barb threat/aggro/whatever skills need a boost of some sort if they intend barbs to be able to maintain any role in aggro retention. If not, give barbs some other purpose, don't just throw them out.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The point is, and you've already been told this a dozen times as well:

It's not a case of whether people will take barbs more often because of a change in skill or not. The issue is that level eleven skills are broken to an extent because they cannot keep up with the changes in gear and the increase in damage. This is a problem that should be fixed because it's a problem.

It shouldn't just be left because you're a paranoid sod who says "why bother because I'm not going to squad with you anyway" (AKA you because that's seriously all I hear from you) and it shouldn't just be left because you don't see the point. Look at the forum poll. A lot of people see a point that this should be fixed because it's a problem.

Let's make it really really clear:
You can't say "don't care, won't squad with these barbs anyway, no point fixing cause people still won't squad with barbs, **** barbs" and then say "oh yeah by the way I support the idea of increasing barb's skills to get and keep aggro"
You are the biggest hypocrite to ever walk these forums if you think you can say that. And if you think you can say that, please leave this thread now.

You are the one who cannot comprehend.

"don't care, won't squad with these barbs anyway, no point fixing cause people still won't squad with barbs, **** barbs"
-I did not say anything about **** barbs. This is the truth, there is still not enough incentive for squads to take barbs in if they can hold aggro. But instead of saying **** barbs, I am asking what other solutions will address this issue? Stop putting words in my mouth.

"oh yeah by the way I support the idea of increasing barb's skills to get and keep aggro"
-be careful with your wording here. I am for the idea of allowing a barb's aggro skills to scale with something(maybe refine), and not a static amount of increase to the aggro generated. And keep aggro vs similarly refined(if aggro scales with refines) people.
--which is the reason why I said no to the poll. I am supporting another way of doing this, and not how the OP suggested it.

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm sorry, I'm not against the hyper stone change, I was just trying to show that it doesnt matter if you cash shop / farm / work for your items, anything can change overnight, for all we know there may not be such thing as -int gear tomorrow b:shocked

Yes I understand that anything can change. But if aps is capped overnight, then I am sure there are going to be threads raging about this change. Just giving my opinion on why that "solution" will not be a good one. And if my opinion is a bad one, like people will cheer for the aps cap, then I am wrong then. This is why it is in the forums, so that other people can point out what you cannot see.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Actually its common these days that to fix other problems instead of "making something better" they will "nerf something else". Simply because, if everyone is asking for barb aggro skills to become stronger and it happens then everyone will be asking and wanting to know why cleric or other class skills didnt get updated. So instead they end up nerfing ( in this case would be -int gear ) instead to fix the problem, because it is easier to nerf -int then it is to upgrade existing skills individually.

I'd rather put it this way: "it is more common to nerf than buff if the nerfing wouldn't hurt their income". Like I have said in the past, why shoot your own leg? If you buff barb's aggro skills, income won't change too much (there aren't too many barbs changing to fists, at least not yet). However, there are plenty of archers and BMs getting int just because of that.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wouldn't put that past some phone companies I've worked for heh.

As to the limiting aps to some smaller number, I suggested it merely because it would be the quickest fix to a lack of fore-sight from the developers. It should be clear to almost everyone that the balances in this game were not intended to deal with perma-sparked 5aps dd.(and if they were, that's some poor designing)

Re-balancing the rest of the game around 5aps would require a much larger undertaking, with increased risk of unbalancing the rest of the game elsewhere.

Either way, barb threat/aggro/whatever skills need a boost of some sort if they intend barbs to be able to maintain any role in aggro retention. If not, give barbs some other purpose, don't just throw them out.

One thing I have been trying to avoid dealing with is the 5aps cap. I find that too many people are taking the easy way out of blaming the 5 aps, instead of looking for a better solution. It might be a feasible solution, but like what you say, theres a whole lot of rebalancing(for example, PvP) that they(game developers) need to do.

One example i can give is how some wizzies can steal aggro from a barb. They do not need 5 aps to do that, the problem of barb's limited threat level has existed all along (I think Airyll or Micheal said this too), just that 5 aps kinda makes it more obvious.

In which case, nerfing aps would not solve the barb's issue completely.

Other than that, I agree with what you said. It needs a boost now and barbs need a reason to be in squad.

@ Kupuntu That partly a reason for nerfs being the less popular than buffs. If people are worried about what they put in today, might not be what they expect to get tomorrow, why take the risk? I would rather bring all that money/effort and put it in another game where things are more stable.

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes I understand that anything can change. But if aps is capped overnight, then I am sure there are going to be threads raging about this change. Just giving my opinion on why that "solution" will not be a good one. And if my opinion is a bad one, like people will cheer for the aps cap, then I am wrong then. This is why it is in the forums, so that other people can point out what you cannot see.

I agree, everyone is always going to have their own personal opinion on something and essentially everyone is right and wrong.

I think its too late in the game now to nerf -int I dont see it happening in the near future anyway.

Personally, knockbacks should just work in PvP... b:chuckle

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I agree, everyone is always going to have their own personal opinion on something and essentially everyone is right and wrong.

I think its too late in the game now to nerf -int I dont see it happening in the near future anyway.

Personally, knockbacks should just work in PvP... b:chuckle

Don't forget about the grey area in between too. There is no such thing as an absolute right or wrong.

Yes, it is too late especially with everyone going for -int build, a nerf to the aps cap would be reliving the first anni packs all over again.

And bleed should not deal full damage in PvP b:surrender

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But who are you to say that those ideas are unrealistic? 1 opinion does not matter.

Those ideas do not directly address the issue of threat generation and their suggestion if implemented would affect game balance issues beyond the scope of this thread and issue. Easy enough to understand?

Aggro = hate/threat level for me. Define it if you wana talk about it. Ive said that aggro is the amount of damage a DD can deal before taking aggro. You can always walk out if you cannot talk to me lol.

Aggro = having the attention of the mob. Threat/Hate = a condition that builds as you attack and if you surpass the level of everyone else, you gain aggro. You do not need to have aggro to generate threat. b:bye.

Show me something ive taken out of context then.
And I said 5 aps DDs, and not BMs, stop taking my words out of context.
replies in red
b:pleased

/facepalm

OMG. Are you serious? I QUOTED WHERE YOU DID and I corrected you.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

One thing I have been trying to avoid dealing with is the 5aps cap.

This is one thing you say I can actually agree with you. It's not a matter of 5aps that makes this thread needed, it's also a matter of highly refined end-game archers and mages who can easily steal aggro from an end-game barb as well.

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver wrote: »

if everyone is asking for barb aggro skills to become stronger and it happens then everyone will be asking and wanting to know why cleric or other class skills didnt get updated.

/facepalm

WTF? Cleric skills scale to their weapon grade and refines, much like damage output of any other class. Even barb's damage scales fine to their weapon grade and refine, but their threat generation does not. That is the scope of this thread... what the hell does cleric skills have to do with this thread? Start another if you have an issue and see how well it is favored.

(by weapon grade here I'm talking about increasing base damage from higher grade weapons, because I know some idiot would question this notion if I didn't explain it).

Borsuc - Raging Tide

You do realize that if threat scales with weapon damage, like most skills, they would still not hold aggro from 5aps right?

They would hold aggro fine from people who spam skills -- like magic classes, though.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver

I still think that a barb with lvl 11 aggro skills should be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game though. They should indeed have a skill that can always hold aggro... that's kind of the point of a tanking class, and at end-game, that should be an almost guaranteed trait

/facepalm

OMG. Are you serious? I QUOTED WHERE YOU DID and I corrected you.

You mean this? Infinite threat fits perfectly here. "... be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game", "a skill that can always hold aggro", "an almost guaranteed trait".

Tell me now that if infinite threat does not fit what you are saying here. It does, and therefore you needed to clarify it. If it was so obvious that infinite aggro does not work here, I'm sure all I would have gotten are more "lolustupid" kind of reaction from you. Sorry, your way of wording this allows me to interpret it like that.

Those ideas do not directly address the issue of threat generation and their suggestion if implemented would affect game balance issues beyond the scope of this thread and issue. Easy enough to understand?

Yes, but directly addressing the issue of threat generation is one way of fixing it. You might think it is unrealistic, but others might think it is still feasible. You are trying to take the easy way out by trying not to go beyond the scope of this thread and issue. In any case, it would be up to the game developers to balance the game.

This is one thing you say I can actually agree with you. It's not a matter of 5aps that makes this thread needed, it's also a matter of highly refined end-game archers and mages who can easily steal aggro from an end-game barb as well.

Sorry but I don't quite agree with what you said. While it is true that mages and archers are the firsts to test/surpass the limit of the threat level generated by barbs, it is the 5 aps which makes the problem even more obvious. Also, I am not so sure about this point(try RoidAbuse) but refining the barb's weapon would have helped more in holding aggro vs classic archers and wizzies compared to holding aggro vs perma sparked 5 aps DDs. I am sure that if you create this thread before the -int gears craze, most people would have asked you to control your DD instead of going for the idea of increasing threat generated by barbs.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

You do realize that if threat scales with weapon damage, like most skills, they would still not hold aggro from 5aps right?

They would hold aggro fine from people who spam skills -- like magic classes, though.

It depends on how it scales then. Most skills scales like .5(damage):1(magical attack), so a barbs might scale like this 100(threat measured in damage dealt):1 (physical attack) or even non-linear functions like a psychic's soulforce.

ShadowOfLife - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

/facepalm

WTF? Cleric skills scale to their weapon grade and refines, much like damage output of any other class. Even barb's damage scales fine to their weapon grade and refine, but their threat generation does not. That is the scope of this thread... what the hell does cleric skills have to do with this thread? Start another if you have an issue and see how well it is favored.

(by weapon grade here I'm talking about increasing base damage from higher grade weapons, because I know some idiot would question this notion if I didn't explain it).

/facepalm

You misunderstood what I was getting at but it doesnt matter.

Asperitas - Lost City

I don't think anyone expects barbs to be holding aggro against a permasparked person.

Personally, I believe that the problem is this:

Other classes generate more threat as they increase their damage output, largely through the improvements in their gear as time goes on. Where as before, +3 was the norm, now it's common to see +10 weapons. So while DD classes have enjoyed a nice power boost, barbarians have still been left in the dust - any improvements to their gear provides minimal amount of increase to their hate generation.

What I think may work is possibly somehow scale aggro so it reflects changes in one's gear. I'm not sure how this may work, but perhaps a base of x + a percentage of your weapon damage? I don't know, but I think it needs to be changed so that it reflects gear progression and improvement.

While they may not be the primary choice of a tank, at least they are an option. At least they can do what they're supposed to, as opposed to unwanted and unable.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

I don't think anyone expects barbs to be holding aggro against a permasparked person.

Personally, I believe that the problem is this:

Other classes generate more threat as they increase their damage output, largely through the improvements in their gear as time goes on. Where as before, +3 was the norm, now it's common to see +10 weapons. So while DD classes have enjoyed a nice power boost, barbarians have still been left in the dust - any improvements to their gear provides minimal amount of increase to their hate generation.

What I think may work is possibly somehow scale aggro so it reflects changes in one's gear. I'm not sure how this may work, but perhaps a base of x + a percentage of your weapon damage? I don't know, but I think it needs to be changed so that it reflects gear progression and improvement.

Is it just me... but most barbs I still see running around with +3/5 as common, while it's the DDs that are close to +10 on weaps... In the meantime barbs go for higher armour hp refs.

Asperitas - Lost City

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

Is it just me... but most barbs I still see running around with +3/5 as common, while it's the DDs that are close to +10 on weaps... In the meantime barbs go for higher armour hp refs.

Most people I see on Lost City regardless of class have higher refines on their weapons. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong people, but like RoidAbuse said, even with his +12 nirvana axes, he can't maintain aggro from mediocre-geared DDs. That's a symptom of the problem right there.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Most people I see on Lost City regardless of class have higher refines on their weapons. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong people, but like RoidAbuse said, even with his +12 nirvana axes, he can't maintain aggro from mediocre-geared DDs. That's a symptom of the problem right there.

I'm pretty sure Roid was talking about claw/fist users. Doubt he'd have problems holding from me ranged.

Lost is pvp, since tanking is a pve thing it would just seem funny to me... for instance had a barb in BH 100 some time ago with low ref Calamities; The other archer was I think lunar bow high ref... he wasn't really going out... But you can imagine it didn't go too well... I don't understand how would it make sense to give that barb the the ability to tank against that archer...

Smb mentioned unlimited agro, but then later that idea was declined as nonsense & that's not what is being asked for... But at the same time you want a barb to be able to hold against those x10 stronger than him fist users? Like when Michael claimed he doesn't wanna tank, but does...

That just doesn't make sense to me... Put a damn beeper on a barb that whenever he's near a mob it's just glued to him...? So even high ref 5 dps-s going all out the mob is still on barb? b:embarrass


If you increase barb agro bx2/3/etc it's still not gona hold against the 5dps-ers...

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You mean this? Infinite threat fits perfectly here. "... be able to steal and hold aggro from just about anyone in-game", "a skill that can always hold aggro", "an almost guaranteed trait".

Tell me now that if infinite threat does not fit what you are saying here. It does, and therefore you needed to clarify it. If it was so obvious that infinite aggro does not work here, I'm sure all I would have gotten are more "lolustupid" kind of reaction from you. Sorry, your way of wording this allows me to interpret it like that.

Almost.

You almost understood his post. He said that it should be an almost guaranteed trait. In my opinion, that doesn't mean 100% chance. All other sentences except one (a skill that can always hold aggro) should be taken as "should be able to hold aggro over DDs unless they try to steal aggro". Just like in lower levels.

Asperitas - Lost City

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Roid was talking about claw/fist users. Doubt he'd have problems holding from me ranged.

Lost is pvp, since tanking is a pve thing it would just seem funny to me... for instance had a barb in BH 100 some time ago with low ref Calamities; The other archer was I think lunar bow high ref... he wasn't really going out... But you can imagine it didn't go too well... I don't understand how would it make sense to give that barb the the ability to tank against that archer...

Smb mentioned unlimited agro, but then later that idea was declined as nonsense & that's not what is being asked for... But at the same time you want a barb to be able to hold against those x10 stronger than him fist users? Like when Michael claimed he doesn't wanna tank, but does...

That just doesn't make sense to me... Put a damn beeper on a barb that whenever he's near a mob it's just glued to him...? So even high ref 5 dps-s going all out the mob is still on barb? b:embarrass

That's why I'm saying, scale threat generation with weapon refine/grade. This way, your calamity barb vs +10 lunar bow situation would still remain the same. Nor does it necessarily mean a barb can hold aggro over a permasparked bm. However, it does perhaps imply that a barb with +12 nirvana axes can hold aggro decently against a wide variety of people.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

This way, your calamity barb vs +10 lunar bow situation would still remain the same. Nor does it necessarily mean a barb can hold aggro over a permasparked bm. However, it does perhaps imply that a barb with +12 nirvana axes can hold aggro decently against a wide

But if you're permasparked you're not doing your normal dmg... You're always at 500% (atleast for me) weap dmg.

Asperitas - Lost City

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

But if you're permasparked you're not doing your normal dmg... You're always at 500% (atleast for me) weap dmg.

Maybe it shouldnt hold aggro against permaspark then. This is just a prelimenary suggestion, and by no means is it perfect.