Is this game better before or after the implement of tideborns?

@asheera

"Ah I know what you mean but also why take genie skills into consideration and blame the sin when nobody talks about anti-sin like stun prevention skills for the victim? Kinda unfair imo."

wait, i get it. i should remain antistunned at all times, since a sin up to 30 lvls under mine is completely invisible to me.

also, by psychic stuns do you mean the 1 second from soul of retaliation, or the 6 seconds from earth vector, wich have a chance to fail?

for an easy example of why sins shouldnt even be able to stun/silence as much as they can; archer dps and sin dps (no skills) are just about the same. archers get only a 3 seconds stun, wich can fail, because if we had anything longer, it would be a disaster. dex melee classes have TOO MUCH DMG to be allowed to chain stun, and that is why archer cant. if you cant kill an archer/arcane your lvl in 8 seconds, you're failing. I've 1shot arcanes with Take Aim, and on one memorable occasion, i 1shot a psy with stunning arrow. if you cant take out an arcane with a demon sparked headhunt, you're worthless. L2P and restat mag to dex.

@longknife:

sins have 2 channeling interrupt skills.

Daose - Harshlands wrote: »

With decent gear and a low leveled magic marrow, you can actually achieve a healthy balance of both magical and physical defense.

perhaps, if the fight is short enough, you could alternate phys and mag marrow with stuns to beat a cleric

RSD is supposed to give chi since it has no additional bonus like any other skill. That's what it's made for so I dunno what you're talking about.

Also you're obsessed with Shadow Escape and overestimate it badly. Unless you QQ that a sin can run away from a lost battle, you're talking as if Shadow Escape stuns you forever. Guess what? While sin uses it to escape the battle you can freaking run around and eat pots or whatever and regenerate (or heal yourself if you're cleric). So no it did not really help the actual previous battle at all, it's mostly used in emergencies where sin will get owned shortly. You QQ about this or I misunderstand? That the sin can evade ownages shortly?

About counters... be a high defense char, like BM or Barb, or a squishy with good refines on armor not just weapon. Survive sin's combos and when you get a chance between gaps or when lock ends, kill sin with your own stun locks or whatever tricks you got. A fist BM would both probably survive AND own the sin with 5 atk/sec. Barb could easily survive, and after that invoke and own sin with arma.


Also I wouldn't mind removing the spark given from Shadow Escape tbh I also find it a bit stupid, but it's not game breaking either.


But alas there will always be QQers against sins and you know why? Because as I said once our stun lock ends we're kinda dead, unless the target has around 25% hp (if charmed, charm has to be on cooldown also) we're dead unless we shadow escape. So by your logic if sins wouldn't kill people with the stun lock, or not bring them to low HP either, then we wouldn't be able to win any fights. You find that balanced?

It's something I call "own fast, or get owned yourself". It will always appear to be an extreme result (one person "owning" the other) because you can't get it closer.


@Sint: Well I don't even have triple spark yet. But also, for the love of God, I thought we're talking about the new balanced sins which can't triple spark while stealthed -.- In other words forget triple spark + stuns since enemies will be able to see your spark and react fast.

So to Longknife again, and others who get owned by sins from stealth too fast when they triple spark... can you guys not blame it on sin's skills and damage but on spark while stealth instead?

Hypnos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Which is exactly what he was talking about. you can't kill a sin if he shadow escape.


You talk like sin can't reach 5 atk/s o.oa <insert A_Noob character info>
ye....5aspd and wat...50 attack lvl ijs

What? b:puzzled

you was saying?

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

bubble of life is an AOE heal, something comparable would be chromatic healing beam, which costs 475 mana from lvl 1. lvl 10 party heal would be 970 mana

you don't see clerics using THAT much mp? or you never played a cleric? do you know that the 4 party buffs together cost 3300 mana? or that lvl 10 revive is 950 mana?

lvl 10 ironheart is 229. this is what may cost a cleric at 6x when their party buffs are available and ress, IH are maxed, you think their mana pool is much bigger than yours is at lvl 64? i mean it's one thing to take all this for granted, it's another to just claim things that are completely wrong and use that to argue with.

if you take the time to explore other classes, ALL of psychics nukes have similar manacosts to wizard/clerics nukes of similar caliber.

Well theres an invention called "MANAPOTS"and their cousins the "SPIRITCHARMS" ever heard of em?

sry for double post..

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

About counters... be a high defense char, like BM or Barb, or a squishy with good refines on armor not just weapon. Survive sin's combos and when you get a chance between gaps or when lock ends, kill sin with your own stun locks or whatever tricks you got. A fist BM would both probably survive AND own the sin with 5 atk/sec. Barb could easily survive, and after that invoke and own sin with arma.

I'm a squishy, and I focus alot on being able to survive. And I can often survive (not necissarily kill, but at least survive) the regular class's that kill me (i.e. bm's, archers, nix venos) if they are similarly geared, even if they get the surprise attack on me. I'm not all crazy cash shopped out, but I have above average non-cashshopper gear imo. Now when fighting sins, If I know they're going to attack (something you should never know about a sin) and get all prepared and have a full IH stack going on myself. They can often still kill me within the stun period with lower grade/refined gear to mine. The only one that couldn't kill me while I had ih stack was a sin with a pair of tt80 daggers (and he still got dam near close). That is why I think sins are op'd. Every other class at least needs to have pretty decent gear to kill me. sins don't seam to have that requirement.

And on your comparison of bm and barb to the sin, remember equally geared. if bm has 5 atk/s to kill sin, sin should also have the 5 atk/s in which case bm very likely may not survive... And on the barb, invoke and arma both cost 2 sparks. not to mention invoke is a tiger form skill while arma is human, which not only takes half health but can miss... which against you, I'd guess isn't too unheared of.

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

RSD is supposed to give chi since it has no additional bonus like any other skill. That's what it's made for so I dunno what you're talking about.

I just addressed this.

Did you know that for other classes, it's very NORMAL to have skills without ailments on them? Like, if the devs decide to give a class an attack without an ailment, it doesn't mean they owe that class chi at all? Amazing, isn't it?

Also you're obsessed with Shadow Escape and overestimate it badly. Unless you QQ that a sin can run away from a lost battle, you're talking as if Shadow Escape stuns you forever. Guess what? While sin uses it to escape the battle you can freaking run around and eat pots or whatever and regenerate (or heal yourself if you're cleric). So no it did not really help the actual previous battle at all, it's mostly used in emergencies where sin will get owned shortly. You QQ about this or I misunderstand? That the sin can evade ownages shortly?

I cannot for the life of me name a time that an HP pot saved my life. Most that does is buy time. Also, have you checked the cast time on cleric heals? Again, that two second window is like one spell. Hell, against a cleric you wouldn't even have to shadow escape; you could use your interrupt channeling spell in that two second window and viola: you've stopped whatever the cleric planned on doing.

About counters... be a high defense char, like BM or Barb, or a squishy with good refines on armor not just weapon. Survive sin's combos and when you get a chance between gaps or when lock ends, kill sin with your own stun locks or whatever tricks you got. A fist BM would both probably survive AND own the sin with 5 atk/sec. Barb could easily survive, and after that invoke and own sin with arma.

The bolded is bull****. You have to look at the situation as if both classes have equal refinement levels. You can't say "the key to beating a sin is level 12 refines," cause wtf that stops working when the sin has level 12 refines.
And if I were a Barb I would NEVER cast arma on a sin. You're implying that the physical attacker class with the lowest accuracy of them all should use one of his most expensive, all-in skills against the class with the highest evasion....Wtf is wrong with you?

Also I wouldn't mind removing the spark given from Shadow Escape tbh I also find it a bit stupid, but it's not game breaking either.

There's a start, but honestly Sins should lose 90% of their chi bonuses, imo. Like I said, buffing in stealth and all the chi bonuses: do away with those and you're on your way to a balanced class.

But alas there will always be QQers against sins and you know why? Because as I said once our stun lock ends we're kinda dead, unless the target has around 25% hp (if charmed, charm has to be on cooldown also) we're dead unless we shadow escape. So by your logic if sins wouldn't kill people with the stun lock, or not bring them to low HP either, then we wouldn't be able to win any fights. You find that balanced?

Since when? I see fights between BMs/Barbs and Sins all the time where the sin just melees the **** out of them. Very often the Sin wins. You guys have such high evasion that you're still very capable of surviving a couple hits; your HP isn't bad either. You guys have average HP.


And as I've said, your debate skills suck balls. You barely ever make good points. All you do is:

A) Point the finger at someone else.

Try to label your debate partner a noob, saying that the only reason they're complaining is because they got owned by a sin. Since no one wants to be a noob, surely we'll withdraw from the argument to save our own honor, right?

@Sint: Well I don't even have triple spark yet. But also, for the love of God, I thought we're talking about the new balanced sins which can't triple spark while stealthed -.- In other words forget triple spark + stuns since enemies will be able to see your spark and react fast.

So to Longknife again, and others who get owned by sins from stealth too fast when they triple spark... can you guys not blame it on sin's skills and damage but on spark while stealth instead?

Sint factored in the spark. I did not. That doesn't change my strategy whatsoever. You know what does? Taking away all your chi bonuses AND the ability to buff in stealth. Chi is supposed to restrict the classes, so why does Chi not apply to Sins?

And so far, what having you offered as ways to beat the strategy I named?

-Healing pots. (Lol. And btw, that means that your sin can use them and survive a couple hits too. Then the one with the highest DPS will probably win, and 9/10 times your sin will have higher DPS)

-Armageddon (It's very apparent why you didn't make a barb)

-Cleric heal (your exact same complaint about 2 seconds only being enough for one attack works here. The cleric would only get one heal in. Now again, go compare what maxed ironheart heals compared to the damage of one of your skills. 30% weapon damage and 714 additional HP =/= 6717 + 100% weapon damage. And again, just interrupt the cleric's channeling.

-Refines (ya cause sins are incapable of refining)






And is it just me, or are you the one that's QQing? I'm just offering my objective opinion; I saw an argument, read up on the class and named my opinion. You're the one that has been defending sins to no end and seems offended when people bring up good points. I've beaten sins and have nothing to lose here; hell, I offered my opinion on what Psys, MY OWN CLASS, need nerfed a couple pages back.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just want to say class with highest evasion gain is BM (10) second is Barb. (8)
Sin, Archer, and Veno (6) is in the third place. b:chuckle
While the rest is at 4th place. (2)

The number in "()" mean evasion they get for each dex, barb with 100 dex will gain 800 evasion while sin get 600 evasion.

Yeah yeah ok, Ms. Technical. xD

I actually knew about a barbs evasion, but the reality is that no barb is gonna focus on dex.
It's also not a barb's evasion that's being discussed here, but rather his accuracy against the Sin.

I only like the chain TB quest and that assassins can tank some bosses just like bm..

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just want to say class with highest evasion gain is BM (10) second is Barb. (8)
Sin, Archer, and Veno (6) is in the third place. b:chuckle
While the rest is at 4th place. (2)

The number in "()" mean evasion they get for each dex, barb with 100 dex will gain 800 evasion while sin get 600 evasion.

you're not factoring in assassin's innate evasion skill, the one that makes anything have a chance to do 1 damage. while some classes can have more evasion per dex, it's offset by accuracy, high accuracy items, and skills that give high accuracy or are 100% hit.

Your skill damage is not WAAAAAY less than what those skills do, you're just theory crafting from ecatomb and didn't even think there's PvP reduction + physical resistance? >.>

wait...what? aren't you the one who wanted to claim this?

Barb could easily survive, and after that invoke and own sin with arma.

...arma against a fully buffed...even archer endgame prolly does like 5k-6k max for a really well-geared barb. endgame light armor users with 3 vit can have 8k+ hp buffed with average refines. plus assassins have innate evasion and a skill to recover from being 1 shot. it's a lot harder than "invoke then own w/ arma"...and besides, that's not how you would go about setting up arma...

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

wait...what? aren't you the one who wanted to claim this?

Claim what? I'm confused

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

...arma against a fully buffed...even archer endgame prolly does like 5k-6k max for a really well-geared barb. endgame light armor users with 3 vit can have 8k+ hp buffed with average refines. plus assassins have innate evasion and a skill to recover from being 1 shot. it's a lot harder than "invoke then own w/ arma"...and besides, that's not how you would go about setting up arma...

Depends on HP of barb obviously.

I saw a 20k HP barb in tiger form (not sure of human) one shot a sin without deaden nerves, dealt like 9k damage.

Another barb dealt 272k damage in delta, I'm not sure with what but am guessing arma with HF... if you take 1/4 of it and 1/2 again for possible HF you still get enough to one shot anything in PvP.


EDIT: btw about group fights, explain how a sin can kill a brambled barb. Does the fact that it's impossible mean bramble is OP? Or barb is OP? Or sin is weak? No because you have counters for that, obviously not the sin though.

Or you'll start saying bramble is balanced only used on a veno? Are you that closed minded? Then the lending spark skill of veno was made for nothing? I mean, it's all about 1v1 and using buffs only on yourself right? That's what skills are balanced/based on.

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

Archer is ranged, Sin is melee, ranged has advantage over melee's for obvious reasons (except 1v1)

So for the last time guys stop thinking of 1v1 because this game, nor any other, is not balanced for that. There's ALWAYS classes that can own others in 1v1, but in a group every enemy move can be countered with a combination of different class skills. I wouldn't be surprised if devs say that stealth is balanced because a sin can detect, which implies devs balanced it for groups, groups with other classes and including a sin there.

In 1v1 AoEs are useless as AoEs, does that mean they shouldn't be considered AoEs when talking about a class's power? Or BoA, is it a useless skill because of 1v1 situations? Don't make me laugh.

So your argument is basically that I should get a friend to help me kill a sin, and/or Sins have every right to be the uncontested kings of duels and PK?

Oh man, you told me....

All BM skills except AoEs/ranged and the first one, have an extra effect.

Same for barb

Same for sin


Stop talking bull**** pls. We're talking about melee classes of course, casters are way different anyway since they don't even use normal attacks.

LOL I love how you just coincidentally leave out the fact that over half of a BM's skills are AOE/ranged. So what you're basically saying is, yes, BM's and Barbs have plenty of attack skills that have no ailments, and yet they don't get the chi bonuses a sin does. Thank you for agreeing with me.

I cannot for the life of me figure what you don't understand. Is that how you or most others you saw play, staying static in PvP? How about, you know, when sin shadow escapes... start running and jumping around AND using pots to recover (or event food btw pots kinda suck). I don't know if this is too brilliant for you but you know, jumping around like mad away from sin prevents him from doing any harm to you except a very weak Knife Throw.

Shadow Jump wouldn't help because of lag, you can't use a skill instantly after you 'port', if the enemy jumps non stop, it won't help.

The only skill that can be used in this case is Shadow Teleport, but it has 180 second CD and the sin wasted before for the stun lock, as we discussed.

You do realize that the only class that could effectively run from a Sin is an Archer? And before you say "fly away," Wind Push works for flight, from what I hear. Sins also swim the fastest. They're the fastest overall class.

And no actually, Tackling Slash has range on it. It also immbolizes the target AND.....

OMG GUESS WHAT ELSE IT DOES!! 8D

IT REWARDS CHI!!!


Yes!! That's exactly what every class needs! An attack skill with a 9 second immobilize and a 50 chi reward!.....Cept sins are the only class that have a skill that lets them immobilize for so long, gain chi and do damage all at the same time. Hell, I want chi on Glacial shards; that'd be badass. I could freeze the target, and immediately afterwards, I could stun them. Y'know, like you guys.

Yeah I didn't name nerf for sins, like the no-buff-in-stealth or no spark-from-shadow-escape /sarcasm

And you're not really saying your opinion when you start naming what this game is about and what devs planned, as if you're 100% right and that's a fact. Like when you say that chi is supposed to be gotten hard just because of other classes.

Mana isn't supposed to be this easy obtainable like the venomancer who uses 0 pots because of transfusion! QQ

Health shouldn't be this easy obtainable like the cleric healing himself! QQ

That's NOT an opinion. I'm naming a fact that Sins get far more free chi than any other class. The closest anyone comes to such a free ride is Veno, and their free MP/HP skills have huge cooldowns.

Can you not see that a Cleric who spams heal on himself is both paying with mana and preventing himself from attacking?

Can you not see that a veno that uses transfusion is paying 100 chi and their HP?


This is the problem:


Normal class:

Chi + Mana = Cast attack skill

Assassin:

Mana = Cast attack skill + Chi

That's how the sin class is supposed to be, which is why they added those chi skills in the first place. Saying that it's a FACT they should be removed only makes you look ridiculous. Your opinion is that they are OP, which is ok, but you also mention as a FACT that CHI IS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD TO GET, therefore you call the devs stupid that they gave this class chi skills to make it easy to obtain? Get real.

Again, I'd love to see where I said it's a FACT they should be removed. I said it was a fact they get a buttload of chi, whereas other classes work their butts off to get chi as fast as possible. I'd also love to know where I named the devs stupid. Now, if you wanna talk opinionated....

That's how the sin class is supposed to be, which is why they added those chi skills in the first place.

I'd love to hear your source on this.

I saw smart barbs using Invoke and turning to human for damage.

Again be smart and develop strategies instead of QQing, they are there. I'm sure most people who can't be arsed to think a bit, would use Invoke and then tiger form only, because hey you can't mix and match the skills.

And of course I think it's obvious that a barb in open PvP area should start as tiger form because of extra defense if you get attacked from surprise.

Now to be perfectly honest, I've sat here and listened to your childish attacks on anyone and everyone who has contested the idea that Sins are balanced. The reality of it is, you haven't noticed MANY possibilities for a class (both sin and the others) that I have named throughout the course of this debate. Therefore, I find it pretty ridiculous that you would have the balls to say I suck at PVP, when I have to tell YOU how YOUR OWN CLASS can avoid stun or damage. Hell, you've miscalculated your own class' total chi bonus earlier in this thread. (Way earlier, but you still miscalculated.)


You on the other hand? What have your brilliant ideas been?

-Use pots (**** man, what rocket scientist did you hire to come up with that one for you?)

-Jump. No seriously, just jump. (Ya cause it worked for Mario, right?)

-Use Invoke the Spirit and then Armageddon. NEVERMIND that using such an expensive and likely-to-miss skill such as Armageddon against a high-evasion target is probably ****! Nevermind that this will most likely require the barb to have chi pots (since btw, the barb doesn't **** chi like you sins do) to perform these right after one another! Never mind that this combo will take well over 5 seconds to perform! IT'S FOOLPROOF!!





So please, unless you literally are a child, stop with the "ya well you suck at PVP arguments." Those aren't objective. Those aren't productive. Those aren't good arguments. They're just you acting like a child because you can't counter some of the arguments posted here.

your sin got hit w/ a zerk or crit. you think it happens all the time? less chance to do that than for a sin to evade with focused mind

of course it depends on hp of barb

if you can reach 20k hp with ToP it's pretty ****ing good already, it would hit for about 5k if you have at least 60% pdef reduction