Is this game better before or after the implement of tideborns?

Alliptica - Raging Tide

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

Back when I was young, we walked up hill in driving snow both ways to school, and we loved it! Oh, how I miss the golden years...

ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! xDDDDDDDDDDD LOLOLOLOLOL
LOOOOOL b:laughb:chuckleb:laughb:laugh

Nakhimov - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

explain how a barb goes about killing an endgame sin "easily" 1v1.

GEM FOR ACCURACY b:cute

Quilue - Sanctuary

the problem is that tideborn was balanced with genies in mind, while the other classes existed before genies. therefore, while other classes can seem fine and counter-able by themselves, tideborn is only tolerable if you have genie skills.

on one hand, you can counter sins with some genie skills and call them counter-able, but we need to realize that it's not the assassin class that is balanced 1v1 - their advantages are obvious, it's genie skills that are so overpowered that it transcends all class balance. no cast time, no channel time, castable when stunned, sealed, whatever, and they have powerful effects.

if any other class can get like 2 sparks from cloud eruption, what difference does it make if sins get a spark if they so much as ****? if all classes can now seal or stun w/ no cast/channel, what difference does it make if sins can go invis or triple spark from stealth? genies ****ed the game up. if tideborn was released before genies, i bet they'd be balanced very differently

Gasoline - Lost City

Game really needed new classes + content after 1 year of nothing (but genies) so its better over all.

However i think both Assassins and psys to will need a little bit of adjusting endgame lol.

Kinda amuses me how a 95+ sin in rather average gear can sneak up and kill most LA/Arcane massive rank8/Nirvana 20k USD spent cash shopper in about 10 sec.

Or how psychics endgame get more powerful skills from refining gear, mind you we haven't seen many endgame psys here yet but from what ive heard from CN-server you pretty much can get 1-2 shoot by soulburn reflect from a +10+12 full set psychic.

So not sure how PWI are gonna deal with it. Pretty sure the complaints have only started. Soon fishies get lvl 11 skills and fish owners will also catch up in gear with the other high lvl players. You think 5 aps BMs are nasty, just meet the sin version they hit far harder and just as fast lol. Pretty sure you're charm wont have time to tick unless you're a barb.

My guess how PWI will sort it, new packs with even better gear with more defenses that you need to get to survive the fishes, new instances with grade 15/16 gear. Than we have to spend money to upgrade gear completely and chinekun stones to transfer refines or more dragon orbs b:cry.

Or they will bring out a new race thats even stronger, and they want us all to ditch out old chars to play fish or new race. More hyper stones in Frost is nice profit.

Born_Free - Harshlands

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

tideborn buff/debuffs which can't be purified.
b:shutup
*cough souls "buffs" cough*
they didn't really do anything for what be already here.
xD
*ninjas redsrose*

You wanna know what balances that? It's called "Cooldown Time." Psychics have from 90 sec to 10 minutes on a cooldown. Yes we have faster casts. Yes our barriers are a pain in the **** for other classes. But we sure as hell pay for it. Costs a lot of mana, too. (Example: Bubble of Life at level 6 costs 400 MP out of my pool. Soulburn costs me one spark and about 100 Mana. Aqua Impact, at level 10, costs me 200 MP. For someone with only about 4k's worth of mana, after a while of casting you start to run a little low, pots or no.) I don't see Clerics using THAT much MP. I don't see Veno's using THAT much MP. The Wizards might...I haven't played mine in a while.

Assassins are OP, let's face it. An Assassin can just turn invisible and **** a class, no matter what kind of race they are. Only Barbs and BM's have a tiny chance of surviving a hit.

I don't hate the TB. I hate Assassins. I liked this game before the ASSASSINS came. I liked this game before the CASH CRUTCHERS came. (A long time before the TB came out.)

Will this thread change anything? No. Even if you did by some miracle of god change the minds of the devs, what would happen to those people who worked hard (and by worked hard I mean DIDN'T oracle/hyper their way to 70+) to get their TB's to a high level?

Do you know what would happen? They'd probably rid of the characters. (Not that the devs would listen to the QQ of the thread. I'm just suggesting that's what would happen IF they just happened to be sick and tired of your whining.) All those people who worked to get those TB character to those levels would seriously be screwed over.

They'll either nerf our damage or come out with a stronger race, or give the old races new armor/abilities to counter. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Quilue - Sanctuary

bubble of life is an AOE heal, something comparable would be chromatic healing beam, which costs 475 mana from lvl 1. lvl 10 party heal would be 970 mana

you don't see clerics using THAT much mp? or you never played a cleric? do you know that the 4 party buffs together cost 3300 mana? or that lvl 10 revive is 950 mana?

lvl 10 ironheart is 229. this is what may cost a cleric at 6x when their party buffs are available and ress, IH are maxed, you think their mana pool is much bigger than yours is at lvl 64? i mean it's one thing to take all this for granted, it's another to just claim things that are completely wrong and use that to argue with.

if you take the time to explore other classes, ALL of psychics nukes have similar manacosts to wizard/clerics nukes of similar caliber.

Born_Free - Harshlands

I have a cleric. Haven't played her in ages (since HT is no longer entertaining to me, but WE.) You misunderstood me though, I'm comparing with Clerics of my own level. Either they're carrying more pots and I'm not seeing them use them, or they haven't leveled their skills that much. I'm usually having to ask THEM for pots. (Embarassing.)

For some reason, it seems like the other robed classes consume less MP. This could be because we're DD's, and we attack more often than the Clerics...that's the only explanation I could think of.

I find Chromatic works better than Bubble, but that's just me, unless you stack the bubble w/Empowered Vigor...but even then it's a 90 sec thing and you have to wait on it, too.

I'm just pointing out though, Psychics actually PAY for our "op" with cooldowns. You wanna talk OP? Blame the Assassins.

Knownase - Heavens Tear

I am just hoping for better features and content this year. I still believe in new stuff! lol

Nareeah - Lost City

before
most definetly before
1st of all fishes get everything 4 granted even a chance to get molded weaps for free <.<
a chance we never had and then some1 comes and QQ i got 10 mirages.... we didn't even got 10 mirages <.<
sins will have to be nerfed it's a fact
psys pay some with their cooldown but mana drain is not their problem (yes i played a psy) they are still OP
packs ruined the game totaly + hypers
3 BH a day is too much
by the time i do dailies my day is over

Quilue - Sanctuary

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

I have a cleric. Haven't played her in ages (since HT is no longer entertaining to me, but WE.) You misunderstood me though, I'm comparing with Clerics of my own level. Either they're carrying more pots and I'm not seeing them use them, or they haven't leveled their skills that much. I'm usually having to ask THEM for pots. (Embarassing.)

For some reason, it seems like the other robed classes consume less MP. This could be because we're DD's, and we attack more often than the Clerics...that's the only explanation I could think of.

I find Chromatic works better than Bubble, but that's just me, unless you stack the bubble w/Empowered Vigor...but even then it's a 90 sec thing and you have to wait on it, too.

I'm just pointing out though, Psychics actually PAY for our "op" with cooldowns. You wanna talk OP? Blame the Assassins.

spirit blast/aqua impact at lvl 10 really don't cost more mana than plumeshot/cyclone or pyro/gush of the same level.

i suspect that because higher level psychic skills have low channel times, you're using those more often in a fight which costs more mana while any other wiz/cleric use 1 higher level nuke then just spam their basic nukes. both get mana regen buffs as well.

as for venos, their nukes cost the lowest out of anyone, and they use a pet so they may not always be nuking, no arguments there.

ManeK - Harshlands

before...says it all

Lady_Seolfor - Dreamweaver

After.
For me the fun lies in exploring, trying out new things, and also reaching a goal, or many sub-goals. In my view, the game got better with the tideborn, as it introduced a new race, some new quests and so on.
I came back to take a look at those merfolk, and .. i guess i am stuck playing one. Addicted or whatever they call it , when you play a game , and not really enjoying it anymore.

Dralighte - Harshlands

REALLY before.

Asheera - Raging Tide

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm just pointing out though, Psychics actually PAY for our "op" with cooldowns. You wanna talk OP? Blame the Assassins.

Yeah well what is funny is that 99% of balance discussions are just based on your experience, common sense, and how you perceive some things. Most of the time there is no mathematical proof something is balanced or more OP, just because you find your cooldowns high it may not sound as balanced for others... they could say "I'd trade my weak skills for a longer cooldown anyday"

Most people also blame the assassins for being "unfair"... define "fair". It is unfair to stealth and hide from sight? That's our specialty. Why would it be fair for a cleric to heal and buff himself or others? We assassins can't >.>

See my point? Aside from that, our stuns kinda suck too, other classes like BM and psy have 6 second AoE stun, while we get a 5 second single target stun.


However, here's something funny...

Will of the Bodhisatva (BM) vs (maxed) Maze Steps (sin)

Spirit & Coin: 60.900 / 84.000 Didn't made calculations but a crapload of both because of upgrading needed
Mana: 100 100
Chi: 100 100
Speed buff: 100% 100%
Bonus: Immunity to stun & freeze & +100% evasion Immunity to stun & freeze
Duration: 15 seconds 10 seconds
Cooldown: 60 seconds 90 seconds


Yeah, we sins have the OP skills /facepalm

Alliptica - Raging Tide

assassins are not OP geez, take it from someone who plays one. the only thing that makes you OP is better gear with refines and all that. aka, cash shopping. and any class can do that. thought after 5 months ppl would have adusted to the tideborn...

Quilue - Sanctuary

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yeah well what is funny is that 99% of balance discussions are just based on your experience, common sense, and how you perceive some things. Most of the time there is no mathematical proof something is balanced or more OP, just because you find your cooldowns high it may not sound as balanced for others... they could say "I'd trade my weak skills for a longer cooldown anyday"

Most people also blame the assassins for being "unfair"... define "fair". It is unfair to stealth and hide from sight? That's our specialty. Why would it be fair for a cleric to heal and buff himself or others? We assassins can't >.>

See my point? Aside from that, our stuns kinda suck too, other classes like BM and psy have 6 second AoE stun, while we get a 5 second single target stun.


However, here's something funny...

Will of the Bodhisatva (BM) vs (maxed) Maze Steps (sin)

Spirit & Coin: 60.900 / 84.000 Didn't made calculations but a crapload of both because of upgrading needed
Mana: 100 100
Chi: 100 100
Speed buff: 100% 100%
Bonus: Immunity to stun & freeze & +100% evasion Immunity to stun & freeze
Duration: 15 seconds 10 seconds
Cooldown: 60 seconds 90 seconds


Yeah, we sins have the OP skills /facepalm

i lol'd. BM chi gain skills vs Assassin chi gain skills GG

also

Assassin: lvl 86 Spirit: 773.000 Coin: 1.050.000


Inner Harmony Level 10
Mana 168.0
Channel Instant
Cooldown 60.0 seconds

Instantly gain 200 Chi.


Assassin: lvl 85 Spirit: 705.000 Coin: 950.000


Rising Dragon Strike Level 10
Mana 142.6
Channel 0.2 seconds
Cast 1.8 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds

Deals a damage equals to your basic physical attack plus
100% gear attack and another
3442,4 physical damage.
Increases own Chi by 150.

100 percent accuracy.


Assassin: lvl 74 Spirit: 239.000 Coin: 320.000

Shadow Escape Level 10
Channel 0.7 seconds
Cast 2.8 seconds
Cooldown 90.0 seconds


Force yourself into stealth. Dispel all negative status.
Enemies with an Awareness Level lower than your Stealth Level can not see you.
Costs 15 Mana per second.

A successful cast will increase one Spark.

compare with

Archer: lvl 100 Spirit: 4.000.000 Coin: 3.000.00 (not including Chrono Pages)

Awaken
Mana 1000
Cast Instant
Cooldown 15 minutes

recharge all Spark instantly. (so like 399 max)

Alliptica - Raging Tide

omg ROFL its a skill information fight!

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yeah well what is funny is that 99% of balance discussions are just based on your experience, common sense, and how you perceive some things. Most of the time there is no mathematical proof something is balanced or more OP, just because you find your cooldowns high it may not sound as balanced for others... they could say "I'd trade my weak skills for a longer cooldown anyday"

Most people also blame the assassins for being "unfair"... define "fair". It is unfair to stealth and hide from sight? That's our specialty. Why would it be fair for a cleric to heal and buff himself or others? We assassins can't >.>

See my point? Aside from that, our stuns kinda suck too, other classes like BM and psy have 6 second AoE stun, while we get a 5 second single target stun.


However, here's something funny...

Will of the Bodhisatva (BM) vs (maxed) Maze Steps (sin)

Spirit & Coin: 60.900 / 84.000 Didn't made calculations but a crapload of both because of upgrading needed
Mana: 100 100
Chi: 100 100
Speed buff: 100% 100%
Bonus: Immunity to stun & freeze & +100% evasion Immunity to stun & freeze
Duration: 15 seconds 10 seconds
Cooldown: 60 seconds 90 seconds


Yeah, we sins have the OP skills /facepalm

Whenever you open your mouth some kind of nonsense always pop's out . K honey , lemme help ya find out why your OP .

-Your skills have more than double all round dmg than bm skills .

-Your channeling is faster which means you'll always get 1st stuns off .

-Your seal/stun/paralize skills equals to stunlocks ( OH WOW u don't have an aoe stun , you want that too eh ? )

-Those skills that cost ya chi are np for you since you have limitless chi for both those + triple spark . One of the main bm stuns " drake bash " need's 1 spark so If you wanna stunlock for like 1min or so , you won't see any triple spark or HF from us unless we pop chi pots or get sparks from venos . And even if we get that , we can only do it every once in a while , after that getting that amount of chi again is gonna be a real pain in the **** .

-WoB also cost's 1 spark , and guess what ? Bms don't have limitless chi , nor do other classes so they actually have to worry about chi control , when & how to use their big chi moves , something that sins don't need to worry about .

-Ofc stealth is normal for an assassin class but being able to spark errupt while in it is not . Imagine what would be like if any other class triple sparked and started channeling an attack next to ya while your unaware , you could pretty much die in 1 hit and not know what happened .

-Unlike the other LA class , which is mainly archers ( optional for casters ) you ain't squis hi . Your evasion buffs cannot be countered with high accuracy from either misties , high dex or a 8k + acc pot . But wait it doesn't stop here , you can even evade magic attacks .

-Oh did I mention that it's common sense for ppl to focus on some1 that does a triple spark or even advanced for that matter in a mass pvp battle ? But then there's sins , which spark erruption doesn't show in air . Sure you can look at the avatar to notice the buff icons but in mass fights like a TW , you don't really have time to look and go " hmmmm ,,, did he spark...or is he using genie skills " .

-Let's not forget that make a wiz's bread & butter kitting skill "distance shrink" look obsolete with your 2 teleports . 1 may have a 3 min cd but it's a tele stun .


Now , was that enough for ya ?


EDIT :

So my point was this :

- Remove the non-stop chi gain ,and maybe ...you know , get chi like every1 other class , the normal way?
- Make spark erruptions show in air .
- Reveal yourself when you spark in stealth .
- (Optional) Some might say something like " don't allow to go in stealth while in combat mode" but I'll just leave it at the other 3 options .


Take out all these and you won't be underpowered , you'll be normal like every other class . Now before you say " U NAB PIMP BOY , WE WONTZ HAZ ANEITHING LEFTZ THEN ! " .

Which is wrong since you'll still have higher survivability than archers thx to your evasion buffs & anti-kiting skills to compensate for being melee ,highest physical dmg on skills and target control due to your disabling skills .

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

Alliptica - Raging Tide wrote: »

assassins are not OP geez, take it from someone who plays one. the only thing that makes you OP is better gear with refines and all that. aka, cash shopping. and any class can do that. thought after 5 months ppl would have adusted to the tideborn...

kk here u got one. played to 92. was average gear. everyone easy to down with close to no strategy. Quitted it tho, cos doesnt work too well for tw. but outside TW sin is op. if you cant see it, then its either:

1) you like to be op and would quit if not, so ur trying make it seem worse.

2) ur too stupid to see it.

Favu - Heavens Tear

Definitely before. ^^;

Asheera - Raging Tide

LMFAO Pimpy just LMFAO Let me requote what I said before cuz you did exactly that.

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yeah well what is funny is that 99% of balance discussions are just based on your experience, common sense, and how you perceive some things. Most of the time there is no mathematical proof something is balanced or more OP, just because you find your cooldowns high it may not sound as balanced for others... they could say "I'd trade my weak skills for a longer cooldown anyday"

Most people also blame the assassins for being "unfair"... define "fair". It is unfair to stealth and hide from sight? That's our specialty. Why would it be fair for a cleric to heal and buff himself or others? We assassins can't >.>

If I need to re explain it again, I just have to say your post was full of own opinions and no proof of overpowered.

You think we're OP because we got 2 skills that give us chi? Yes, we got two SKILLS for that, one only does that, the other mediocre damage but extra bonus is chi, compared to let's say Rib Strike giving attack speed reduction. So you think we're OP because of that? What's your proof? Other than your opinion?

Those skills give chi as bonus, like Rib Strike gives extra speed reduction. If you think they're OP, again, it's your opinion, not any proof or some sort of it. Devs may have had a different opinion when they made it. What makes yours right?

I gave a proof one of our skills is weaker than one of BM's. Longer duration, less cooldown, extra effect. Period. Prove me wrong if you can.

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

LMFAO Pimpy just LMFAO Let me requote what I said before cuz you did exactly that.If I need to re explain it again, I just have to say your post was full of own opinions and no proof of overpowered.

You think we're OP because we got 2 skills that give us chi? Yes, we got two SKILLS for that, one only does that, the other mediocre damage but extra bonus is chi, compared to let's say Rib Strike giving attack speed reduction. So you think we're OP because of that? What's your proof? Other than your opinion?

Those skills give chi as bonus, like Rib Strike gives extra speed reduction. If you think they're OP, again, it's your opinion, not any proof or some sort of it. Devs may have had a different opinion when they made it. What makes yours right?

I gave a proof one of our skills is weaker than one of BM's. Longer duration, less cooldown, extra effect. Period. Prove me wrong if you can.

You missed the point .

Even if a skill such as maze steps is weaker than our WoB , or even your headhunt is much weaker than our HF you can spam them since you have ways to get chi back if they fail . I'd settle for an only +50% dmg amp of HF if I could spam it whenever I wanted to + have chi for stunlocks .

PsychicHarpy - Heavens Tear

Whole Thread lead to failure...b:chuckle b:bye

_Bloody_Fox_ - Sanctuary

Alliptica - Raging Tide wrote: »

assassins are not OP geez, take it from someone who plays one.

Invalid.

It's really rare that a person would say their own class is OP.

Asheera - Raging Tide

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide wrote: »

You missed the point .

Even if a skill such as maze steps is weaker than our WoB , or even your headhunt is much weaker than our HF you can spam them since you have ways to get chi back if they fail . I'd settle for an only +50% dmg amp of HF if I could spam it whenever I wanted to + have chi for stunlocks .

Nah I still think you don't get it.

What you all say is subjective, not objective like the hard facts I outlined with those 2 skills. You'd trade that for that any day, your opinion, no hard facts there that the 2nd way you like is better.

What makes you think the devs don't have the opposite view? And thus why they find it balanced?


Now, as a matter of fact, and in hope you'll understand finally... I agree we're OP on a few things you mentioned. But this is still subjective (my opinion)

I agree spark in stealth is stupid, and the chi gaining skills could do with some nerf as long as our skills also are buffed up to match BM's, like HF and our (weak) Maze Steps adjusted etc.


My point was just trying to give you a perspective of why everything you guys argue about balance is not too valid, because it's all subjective. Devs may have different opinions. What makes yours more valid than theirs?

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Can you really objectively prove any class to be OP?

Subjective is the only way to decide if something is OP (by the mass majority of course).

You can throw skill descriptions around all day and say "Such is better than such-and-such" but you'll never prove anything.

You have to analyze the actions and results of said skills used by multiple players in multiple situations and scenarios.

Devs don't put skills together and say "oh it's balanced", they create skills and test them in a beta, in which they take the opinions of the players and the data of the different player vs player scenarios to then balance the classes.

In the end, your objective facts are based on the subjective view of the devs, which in turn (at some point) was based on the subjective view of the beta players.

Asheera - Raging Tide

Yes most of time it's subjective, but when a skill does same thing but better effect (more chance/higher or lower number depends on effect), and/or less cooldown and/or more duration... kinda obvious which one is OP and the other UP. And objectively.

Rillien - Heavens Tear

No.

The correct terms is, one skill is better and one is worse. Because no one said that skill was overpowered. For BMs or Sins.

The fact is, assassins have a combination of skills that make them "OP". Whoever posted the 3 chi-gain skills pointed this out--you have the ability to quickly recharge chi using those skills, not to mention the increased chi from regular attacks.

Others also pointed out the problem with this: nobody can see your spark when you are in stealth. THIS is the issue, not just one silly comparison of one skill.

Look at the big picture. And people are trying to be as objective as you are, but your proof is hardly all-encompassing and doesn't really say anything other than better/worse.

Alyyy - Sanctuary

c) the game was better be4 the high gold prices xD


b:surrenderits true

Plicid - Heavens Tear

Alyyy - Sanctuary wrote: »

c) the game was better be4 the high gold prices xD


b:surrenderits true

not if you sell gold. Gold is just market value. With all the sales it cheaper $ value to buy stuff so the coin Value of gold goes up.