reasons why you want or dont want sins in ur squad

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  • XChrono - Sanctuary
    XChrono - Sanctuary Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ^ We might kill you when we do... lol
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  • Motoko - Raging Tide
    Motoko - Raging Tide Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The reason people don't want a sin for FC/RB is simple. There are better classes for it, and they aren't in short supply.

    FC:
    Cleric
    Barb
    BM
    Veno
    2DDs

    Ok the cleric spot is obvious.

    Barb: dont 100% need one, but sure as hell helps for gathering mobs + tanking bosses + great aoe dmg (arma if uncharmed).

    BM: not 100% needed either but definitely optimal. heaven's flame + spammable AOE skills + AOE stun + Pdef buff = profit

    Veno: Full damage on ?lvl bosses + Amp + can tank all but 1 boss if they have a herc (Barb/BM can tank the debuff boss). Decent aoe skills with epic debuffs if they have 79 skills.

    Ok that it for the 4 classes you really really want in FC. That leaves 2 more for DD.

    Wiz: Decent boss DD, Epic spike aoe DMG (using DB in FC is for noobs). decent boss DD.

    Archer: Sharptooth = 100% win on bosses. Great single target boss DD with demon spark + auto attack. Kinda crappy burst AOE so... meh, make due with barrage.

    Psy: Like a ranged magical squishy BM O.o Lots of spammable AOEs with decent damage and nice debuffs, I like them for FC.

    Sin: 2 AOEs -_- One has a 30 second cooldown. Subsea = HF Jr. 30% amp is pretty bad, so no one would replace a BM with a Sin. They don't have the boss DD of an Archer or Veno, and are arguably the worst class when it comes to AOEs(8m range... bad cooldowns). Though as a BM I love bloodpaint.

    Ok so if you can pick 2 DDs, what will they be? another BM and an Archer maybe (mobs stay permastunned bosses get sharptoothed, run = faster) Maybe wiz + archer? How about Psy + Archer? Or maybe your veno has sage soul degen. then you can decide not to take an Archer. Sins have the worst AOE, and their lack of demon spark makes them a mediocre boss DD at best. That is why no one brings them to FC, unless the sin is a friend/factionmate that needs it.

    For RB basically apply all the things I just said, and them make them even worse because Sin AOEs have 8m range, and mobs tend to be more spread out in RB than in FC.
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  • Evict - Heavens Tear
    Evict - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,301 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Motoko - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Sin: 2 AOEs -_- One has a 30 second cooldown. Subsea = HF Jr. 30% amp is pretty bad, so no one would replace a BM with a Sin. They don't have the boss DD of an Archer or Veno, and are arguably the worst class when it comes to AOEs(8m range... bad cooldowns). Though as a BM I love bloodpaint.

    Ok so if you can pick 2 DDs, what will they be? another BM and an Archer maybe (mobs stay permastunned bosses get sharptoothed, run = faster) Maybe wiz + archer? How about Psy + Archer? Or maybe your veno has sage soul degen. then you can decide not to take an Archer. Sins have the worst AOE, and their lack of demon spark makes them a mediocre boss DD at best. That is why no one brings them to FC, unless the sin is a friend/factionmate that needs it.

    Last time I checked, I dealt alot more dmg than a BM at roughly my lvl. We may not be good at aoes, but with the right genie skills and moderately pro gears, our DDing capabilities 1 on 1 are probably the best.
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  • UltraStatic - Raging Tide
    UltraStatic - Raging Tide Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Last time I checked, I dealt alot more dmg than a BM at roughly my lvl. We may not be good at aoes, but with the right genie skills and moderately pro gears, our DDing capabilities 1 on 1 are probably the best.


    i agree with this
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  • hitoatarii
    hitoatarii Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc7jLMTXfHk&NR=1

    That should answer questions about AOE's for Sins

    Few points I would like to add.

    1: Any decent Assassin knows how to control hate i.e. If we pull hate we use Shadow Escape, and back off.

    2: A pure speed Dex Sin for the most part can keep up or pass most BM's

    3: If the Sin is well versed he knows how to traverse most dungeons and can perform a pull very clean or even clear out an area that would other lead to a prolonged fight.

    Just give it sometime we don't even know how Demon or Sage will effect Assassins party style. For all we know... it might knock out the want of another class in a party. The class is still new and i am looking forward to what is in store for it in the future
  • Motoko - Raging Tide
    Motoko - Raging Tide Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Last time I checked, I dealt alot more dmg than a BM at roughly my lvl. We may not be good at aoes, but with the right genie skills and moderately pro gears, our DDing capabilities 1 on 1 are probably the best.

    Untill demon spark... where Archers and BMs both jump ahead by a fair amount. And no... unless an Archer/BM/Sin has a decen't amount of -Interval gear and their demon spark, they are not going to out DD a veno on ? bosses.

    I just don't see why you would take a sin as opposed to any other class to an instance where classes actually matter. (Gamma/2-3 Acient Evil/FC/Delta).

    Sure a sin has no problem getting into BH/FBs but that isn't what the OP was talking about.
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  • Magical_Orgy - Lost City
    Magical_Orgy - Lost City Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    First:
    I like their attack rate slowed skill. Helps barb tank
    Second:
    Their Blood Paint Buff
    Third:
    Can scout doors ahead of time in bh 79 to save time
  • Dismayven - Harshlands
    Dismayven - Harshlands Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    /NiKi - Lost City wrote: »
    because spot is reserved already for other classes?lol
    just kidding.
    i usually solo bh's and hh's with my hubby so b:surrender
    but if i play cleric,and sin is in bh squad that would be problem at some bosses.
    like in 69,melee classes u always have to heal separated,besides spamming iron on tank and party heal for others when boss aoe,u need to worry about LA melee b:shutup

    lol i got 4k hp at lvl 73 and im pure dex.....i can fight polearm boss in fb69 just fine and dont need EP heals...any sin that cant melee obviously fails horribly...i can also do bh59 with just me and 1 cleric
  • Trawne - Lost City
    Trawne - Lost City Posts: 966 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Motoko - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Untill demon spark... where Archers and BMs both jump ahead by a fair amount. And no... unless an Archer/BM/Sin has a decen't amount of -Interval gear and their demon spark, they are not going to out DD a veno on ? bosses.

    I just don't see why you would take a sin as opposed to any other class to an instance where classes actually matter. (Gamma/2-3 Acient Evil/FC/Delta).

    Sure a sin has no problem getting into BH/FBs but that isn't what the OP was talking about.

    Demon sparked BM's/Archers will only out DD a perma 2 spark sin if they have more interval gear and BM uses fists.

    discounting amplify damage, any 90+ archer/BM/sin that cant out DD a veno, even on ? bosses, is pretty fail. The added damage a veno gives to the whole squad with amp damage though makes 1 still good in the squad
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  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Last time I checked, I dealt alot more dmg than a BM at roughly my lvl. We may not be good at aoes, but with the right genie skills and moderately pro gears, our DDing capabilities 1 on 1 are probably the best.

    you sir...do not have a -int fisters DPS

    and will never come close unless you hit 100 get nirvana get R8 and gimp your maq def

    b:cute
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  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    you sir...do not have a -int fisters DPS

    and will never come close unless you hit 100 get nirvana get R8 and gimp your maq def

    b:cute

    Well, actually, I'm pretty sure that my Sin with -0.1 int will out DPS any fists BM with -0.1 int of my level. Crit and higher damage to make up for the slower rate aside, if we are talking about both class pre end game, when you are not fast enough to constantly triple spark, Sins have a huge advantage chi wise on fists BM. My Sin's been able to constantly double spark on bosses since 59.
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  • Xirella - Harshlands
    Xirella - Harshlands Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    So you like high damage melee characters that can make the numbers fly. If thats the case then the BM is the class for you. Question is, does it make the highest dps? Answer not nescessarily. All boils down to how many times a sin is going to crit and how many of those crits activate while wolf emblem is active. Minus the time it takes to cast wolf emblem and then look at how long the damage is being dealt out for.

    Another point to note is that I can continuously single spark and if timed right I can hit up to about 4 double sparks in a row.

    In essence the sin has the potential to produce dps number that would make a bm cry. Problem is that its all too dependent on 'ifs'.

    So lets take 'if' out of the equation and just just lets look at the facts:
    1) fist BM has higher attack speed.
    2) Fist BM has much more consistent damage
    3) fist BM has better survivability

    So why is this important? So that all those fist BMs can run around thumping their chest shouting best dps! As for me, once again I shadow walk or shadow escape and watches the fist bm die after he takes agro and healer cant keep him alive.

    DPS is for egos.
  • Astoru - Heavens Tear
    Astoru - Heavens Tear Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Well, playing devils advocate, having sins during FF was pretty nice. They do have some pretty powerful AoE's.

    Aside from that, I'd prefer a high -int class to have a bit more survivability. No point in dealing massive amounts of damage if you can't take the consequences of it.
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  • Xirella - Harshlands
    Xirella - Harshlands Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Some? I count earthen rift and subsea strike. Did I miss one? What I think you mean is that earthen rift has a 8 second cooldown so we can basically spam it. Assassin definitely was not made for all aspects of this game.
  • Drizst - Heavens Tear
    Drizst - Heavens Tear Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I don't know what some of you guys are griping about I have -.2 int. and i'm swinging pretty fast at level 81.
  • Firefeng - Dreamweaver
    Firefeng - Dreamweaver Posts: 421 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Xirella - Harshlands wrote: »
    So lets take 'if' out of the equation and just just lets look at the facts:
    1) fist BM has higher attack speed.
    2) Fist BM has much more consistent damage
    3) fist BM has better survivability

    So why is this important? So that all those fist BMs can run around thumping their chest shouting best dps! As for me, once again I shadow walk or shadow escape and watches the fist bm die after he takes agro and healer cant keep him alive.

    DPS is for egos.

    #1 is unquestionably true, until the point in time that both classes are capped at 5 attacks per second, at which point inter-class attack speed is irrelevant.

    #2 is incorrect. An Assassin will consistently outdamage a fist BM, assuming equivalent levels of minus interval. Considering that Assassins don't have access to demon spark, and that it's safe to assume that they will eventually, comparing an incomplete class to a complete class is pointless.

    #3 A fist BM has more HP, not necessarily survivability. No Fist BM that I know of has soloed an unwined BH79. Moreover, I've survived a throng of DDs in TW that would have eaten my BM alive, by virtue of some of the damage being utterly negated to one damage a strike, and lived long enough to stealth, which made me completely undetectable by the opposing faction. A 9x BM can take consistently less damage than an Assassin; this does not necessarily translate into better survivability. An Assassin has the choice to make themselves vulnerable to attack, a BM does not.

    A multi-weapon BM with -interval and bloodpaint buff on them, however, is a force to be reckoned with so far as PVE survivability goes.
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  • GalenNn - Lost City
    GalenNn - Lost City Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Really i have no problem with assassins in my squad even if we need a tank some of them can tank b:pleased but i like them cause of thier stun skill and thy can do pretty high dmg
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  • Slashreaver - Heavens Tear
    Slashreaver - Heavens Tear Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    who said clerics can only heal 1 at a time. they got 2 mass heal spells. but the cast time on them take a bit and sometimes its just to late to save you. but all thsse post abought sins and partys are old. sins have there place in a party and are asked for all the time.
  • Yippee - Lost City
    Yippee - Lost City Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Like what most people are saying, I've found that everyone who has a sin as a main is very arrogant. I've met sins who get angry that the squad isn't letting them tank, and when they do, they die and the whole squad dies in the end. Then there are other sins who run ahead of the squad and aggros 6-7 mobs that kill them and sometimes the whole squad.

    Also, sins as tanks need to be healed more often which is a pain on a cleric's mana. I know they are really good DDs, but sometimes their high damage makes them a little too confident which puts the entire squad in danger.

    Maybe not all sins are like this, but all the ones I've met have failed to show me otherwise b:surrender
  • Soulflames - Heavens Tear
    Soulflames - Heavens Tear Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    lol ppl this is just a game so play as u like its all about fun not omg this class is better or i hate those ppl cause they do more damage. Just play and have fun lol and i bet one day u will be happy lol. Thats all i have to say b:laughb:victoryb:chuckleb:pleased
  • Laurrella - Dreamweaver
    Laurrella - Dreamweaver Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I think Assassins in a group add great DD even at lower levels. I find that doing bosses, fb's and bh's in the 20's-30's go pretty well even with our skills being somewhat limited at those levels. As long as the sin knows their place in the group and manages their aggro they should be a welcome addition to any group.

    As to the discussion if they are better or worse than BM's I would say it really comes down to the skill of the players involved. I have seen good ones and bad ones. In PVP that player skill and gear usually tell who will win. In PVE does it really matter who kills a couple seconds quicker? b:laugh
    Laurrixa - 64 Sin
  • Blonkita - Raging Tide
    Blonkita - Raging Tide Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    wow.....21 pages of dribble.
    did you ever stop to think that there is just to many of them being rolled?
    looks to me like you rolled a FOTM char.
    that and all the arrogant liitle noob kids running around on one is gonna make it rough to find teams for the very few good ones... which ive yet to meet.

    p.s. i cant believe this thread went 21 pages with all this cry baby dribble... do these forums even have mods?
  • Evict - Heavens Tear
    Evict - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,301 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Laurrella - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I think Assassins in a group add great DD even at lower levels. I find that doing bosses, fb's and bh's in the 20's-30's go pretty well even with our skills being somewhat limited at those levels. As long as the sin knows their place in the group and manages their aggro they should be a welcome addition to any group.

    As to the discussion if they are better or worse than BM's I would say it really comes down to the skill of the players involved. I have seen good ones and bad ones. In PVP that player skill and gear usually tell who will win. In PVE does it really matter who kills a couple seconds quicker? b:laugh

    This.
    Blonkita - Raging Tide wrote: »
    wow.....21 pages of dribble.
    did you ever stop to think that there is just to many of them being rolled?
    looks to me like you rolled a FOTM char.
    that and all the arrogant liitle noob kids running around on one is gonna make it rough to find teams for the very few good ones... which ive yet to meet.

    p.s. i cant believe this thread went 21 pages with all this cry baby dribble... do these forums even have mods?

    who u??? b:question
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  • MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear
    MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,377 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I want to make these thread more hot. b:angry
    Sometime you will meet sins that insist with evasion they can tank. b:laugh
    And for them evasion was better from hp and def. b:pleased
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  • Evict - Heavens Tear
    Evict - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,301 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I want to make these thread more hot. b:angry
    Sometime you will meet sins that insist with evasion they can tank. b:laugh
    And for them evasion was better from hp and def. b:pleased

    Those sins fail.
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    Dysk is my tasty chimichanga. <3
  • Anjin_fujiko - Sanctuary
    Anjin_fujiko - Sanctuary Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Lets start out with I play a lvl 84 herc veno, 85 axe/pole/blades BM, 79 cleric and 70 barb.

    I have no problem squad up with any class as long as they follow my protocol on squad run

    1. as a Barb I tank and take back aggro if cleric happen to get aggro. Any other class that steal aggro from me you on your own until whatever I tank die. (I also PM cleric to heal me only until all mobs dead before healing the rest.

    2. Any idiot that want to show up skill and their ability run ahead of squad get aggro will be on their own bottom.

    3. I always ask for lead of the squad once if form up. Anyone that mess up in my squad will get 1 warning and the second time it happen that person get kick out of squad.

    As a cleric I also let the squad know that my jobs is to keep the tank alive and not the squad. So anyone that **** around use their own pot to heal and stay alive until my tank is safe. I wont BB unless that require to keep the barb and me alive. Everyone have their pot and genie use it, my charm is not free. Anyone one bit,ch at me for not healing them while barb tanking wont get rez if they die. So my cleric rule is do your job and dont die, or steal aggro from my tank.

    Those same rule apply to my BM and veno too when I am in someone else squad. I heal my self and control my DD. I dont expect Barb to take care of my mess up or play aggro ping pong just because I am capable of taking aggro.
  • Ephemerai - Sanctuary
    Ephemerai - Sanctuary Posts: 335 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You're a pretty strict/harsh player b:surrender

    IMO a good cleric doesn't focus on solely the tank but is able to keep the rest of the squad alive as well (and I do know clerics who are capable of doing this). A good tank keeps aggro whether or not others in the squad are able to steal aggro. Of course, if someone's intentionally stealing aggro by going all out no matter what happens and EXPECTS the cleric to keep him alive through all of that, it's a different story. But... being that strict about everything ... D=
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  • Laurrella - Dreamweaver
    Laurrella - Dreamweaver Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Those sins fail.

    Exactly. Unless you are a high level sin for the mob or in some kind of super heal squad you won't be able to tank for long normally. My two main focuses in most groups are to provide DD without drawing aggro away from main tank and secondly to help pull aggro off cleric or other squishies when things dont go as planned.
    Laurrixa - 64 Sin
  • Evict - Heavens Tear
    Evict - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,301 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Anjin_fujiko - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Lets start out with I play a lvl 84 herc veno, 85 axe/pole/blades BM, 79 cleric and 70 barb.

    I have no problem squad up with any class as long as they follow my protocol on squad run

    1. as a Barb I tank and take back aggro if cleric happen to get aggro. Any other class that steal aggro from me you on your own until whatever I tank die. (I also PM cleric to heal me only until all mobs dead before healing the rest.

    2. Any idiot that want to show up skill and their ability run ahead of squad get aggro will be on their own bottom.

    3. I always ask for lead of the squad once if form up. Anyone that mess up in my squad will get 1 warning and the second time it happen that person get kick out of squad.

    As a cleric I also let the squad know that my jobs is to keep the tank alive and not the squad. So anyone that **** around use their own pot to heal and stay alive until my tank is safe. I wont BB unless that require to keep the barb and me alive. Everyone have their pot and genie use it, my charm is not free. Anyone one bit,ch at me for not healing them while barb tanking wont get rez if they die. So my cleric rule is do your job and dont die, or steal aggro from my tank.

    Those same rule apply to my BM and veno too when I am in someone else squad. I heal my self and control my DD. I dont expect Barb to take care of my mess up or play aggro ping pong just because I am capable of taking aggro.

    Kinda glad you don't play on HT.. lol. As Empherai said, a good cleric should be able to keep the entire squad alive as long as people aren't being d**kheads, and by lvl 70, they should know not to. And as for not BBing unless the Barb is in danger? Isn't that kinda ridiculous?
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  • Drizst - Heavens Tear
    Drizst - Heavens Tear Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Anjin_fujiko - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Lets start out with I play a lvl 84 herc veno, 85 axe/pole/blades BM, 79 cleric and 70 barb.

    I have no problem squad up with any class as long as they follow my protocol on squad run

    1. as a Barb I tank and take back aggro if cleric happen to get aggro. Any other class that steal aggro from me you on your own until whatever I tank die. (I also PM cleric to heal me only until all mobs dead before healing the rest.

    2. Any idiot that want to show up skill and their ability run ahead of squad get aggro will be on their own bottom.

    3. I always ask for lead of the squad once if form up. Anyone that mess up in my squad will get 1 warning and the second time it happen that person get kick out of squad.

    As a cleric I also let the squad know that my jobs is to keep the tank alive and not the squad. So anyone that **** around use their own pot to heal and stay alive until my tank is safe. I wont BB unless that require to keep the barb and me alive. Everyone have their pot and genie use it, my charm is not free. Anyone one bit,ch at me for not healing them while barb tanking wont get rez if they die. So my cleric rule is do your job and dont die, or steal aggro from my tank.

    Those same rule apply to my BM and veno too when I am in someone else squad. I heal my self and control my DD. I dont expect Barb to take care of my mess up or play aggro ping pong just because I am capable of taking aggro.

    You have to be the worse Cleric I know.... Only the tank? Are you that much of a narcissistic? lol Get a clue because a Cleric is there to heal the party... not just the tank.. reread the job class description.

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