Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?

Literature - Harshlands wrote: »

lol pve players seem to have this idea that their "skills" will carry them. But it's not really about skill alone. It's about skill + gear.

If you are skilled and a another skilled player outgears you...then you fail. That's how it is on pvp servers. Playing pve and being able to toggle pvp on/off has warped your brain if you think you can do without something like a nix. b:bye

Literature - Harshlands wrote: »

lol pve players seem to have this idea that their "skills" will carry them. But it's not really about skill alone. It's about skill + gear.

If you are skilled and a another skilled player outgears you...then you fail. That's how it is on pvp servers. Playing pve and being able to toggle pvp on/off has warped your brain if you think you can do without something like a nix. b:bye

Literature - Harshlands wrote: »

Amp + nix = death. Atleast to any LA/robe veno, archer, cleric, wiz.

Barbs and BM's are kinda iffy because I can't always outlast them as pure robe. b:quiet

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »

yes it rather aggrivates me when people think that 'everyone has a right to say whatever they want' on this forum because 'its their right to be entitled to their opinion.' that doesnt mean we all care to see or hear it.

it seems as if people just give more a damn about their 'rights' than they do their civic duties. its sad when immigrants know more about your own country than you do :O.

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, I saw a World Chat shout the other day, screaming for anyone who could help do a boss to come and assist with it. I, also needing the boss, volunteered my services, and was asked if I had a Herc, when I informed him that no, I did not, I was promptly ignored. This is not the only time I have a seen Venos without Hercs being treated like ****. Everywhere I look, I see people shouting for "Veno with Herc!" What gives? I know, it's the best tank in the entire game, I know that it's capable of doing pretty much 99% of the bosses, but still, why the hell would you ignore anyone trying to help, regardless of if they have Herc or not?

Would you do the same for the other classes? "Oh, look, a Wizard without full TT, YUCK! Let's leave him alone", or "Ew... a Non Tiger-Form barb, let's ignore the crappy tanker.", or "A cleric without Charm, Do not WANT."

The sad part is, I know a few people already are guilty of doing these things. What the bloody Hell, people? Just because we don't play the game the way you think we should play it suddenly means that we aren't worth your time? If you're so God damned good at this game, why the Hell did you ask for help in the first place? If someone volunteers to help you after you've asked for help, don't pick apart what they have, or don't have. You don't know a damn thing about how they play. Obviously, if they offered to help you, they're probably a decent person, and since they're not QQing and whining for help, they're probably a decent player. Hell, I've seen things done better by players that defied the standards than the ones that are exactly the same as everyone else.

It just disgusts me how some you are so wrapped up in the "Standards of PW" that you ignore those who don't fit the molds. Veno doesn't mean Herc. Clerics are not just your healing slaves. Barbs aren't just there to have the **** beat out of them and do very little damage.

And just FYI? I party with Charmless Clerics all the time. The ones who don't carry charms are usually good enough to carry the powders to make up for it.

But it seems like some people wouldn't even give them the chance. And, yeah. I am not happy about that. I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but at this point, if I can get even one person to stop and think about how they play, it'll all be worth it.

LloydAsplund - Sanctuary wrote: »

Venos without hercs are not useless, they're just LESS useful. Considering your situation, you needed some boss. What if the squad already had 5 people that needed the boss and no one was able to tank the boss. Adding another person that did not have the ability to tank (with the help of other squad members) will get no where. 6 people in a squad and no one able to take the boss, pretty useless imo.

Also, for rebirth, can you imagine having a charmless archer for DD? It totally depends on the situation, and the activity.

prof wrote: »

@op(i'm obviously not going to read 30 pages):

herc doesn't make wf useful, the pets skills do

i farmed dragon temple every week until i got my solid shell and excorcism scrolls, then i spent most of my gold making them level 5. the only thing i needed was reflect scroll and i couldn't see to get lucky enough for it. other than that, my bear had same defense as herc with more offense

its other 2 skills made a difference though: bashing and frighten

bash holds hate a lot better than ripping and biting ever could, and frighten makes the [whatever i'm fighting] do a considerably less amount of damage. good time to let off an amp/nuke, or both, w/e

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hybrid here. I feel your pain. But then again, we do things so nicely in certain situations. Fox Form in LA almost gives us as much defense as a Normal Form Barb. b:chuckle Not to mention that we aren't actually taking every single hit, due to our lovely Accuracy debuffing attack, right? Now, if you're HA, you probably blow me out of the water in sheer tankability.

Also, to all posters. I understand why it's prefered, and thank you for pointing out the major differences, and why it would be considered pointless to invite a Veno sans Herc to tank. I still don't quite think it's fair, but obviously, there are huge reasons as to why it is the way it is.

Also, I've dealt with similar stories to Warrenwolf's, about people wanting to overdo the Clerics. Long before I could take Gouf with Pet heals, I discovered that as long as I was careful about how I let my charm tick, I could, in fact, take him down, with a lovely combination of Bramble Hood and Fox. Of course, nobody is going to listen to a Veno say they can tank a boss like Gouf without a pet, right? So, the Big Bad BM struts his stuff and goes in after the boss. We had no cleric, and only me and the low veno that needed the quest. Well, of course, the BM proceeds to get pwned, and starts yelling about how we need a cleric, and how he's trying to get one, and we should wait for him to get back with a cleric, on and on and on about we need this, this, this and that. Meanwhile, I've been slugging away with the other Veno, and end up taking Gouf down right as the BM gets back. I laughed. Hard.

Then, there was the Slitt incident. I figured out how Slitt works, how to destroy him without dying, to the point where I could even solo him. I head to him to do my thing, and this Veno stops me, and asks if I can help her heal her pet, a Torgrin Brave. I know immediately, it's not going to work, and I try to tell her so, well... Long story short. I'm right. Pet drops instantly, other veno scatters. I inform her "Run. I got this." And proceed to beat the ever loving **** out of Slitt. Of course, by the time I was done, the skies above my head were filled with Wizards. Not clerics, but Wizards healing me to keep me alive. We all got a laugh out of that one. Of course, what made it even better is the squad I encountered when I went to help a Barb friend. They were armed to the teeth with Clerics etc. And they all made the mistake of staying in his AoE Manadrain. I, of course, having stepped back when they told me they only had room for my friend was beside myself with glee as I watched this huge party all complain about the manadrain.

I always found it funny, that a makeshift team of Wizards and Venos were more effective than the Clerics, Barb, BM, Wizard, Archer squad that came to destroy him.

It just kinda proves that you can have the "Optimum party" and still not be anywhere near as effective as a group of random people that comes togther. It's all about strategy in this game.