Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?
Comments
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MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »
What is the x-mas blessing you all talk about?
it was an item you could get during christmas and now via the lvl 80 supply stash goes in place of a mystical tome, it gives +1% crit and makes it so none of your pets/mounts loose loyalty over time, only if they die they still do0 -
which are also kind of archaic if youre on sanctuary due to the huge influx of tomes from rebirth gamma :P0
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I have no idea why venos without hercules would be useless. I quess most of the people just over-rate those pets total. I don't have an Hercules, got an bear and to be honest, there gives nothing what i can't do, what can do a veno with hercules. Uh ok, i must heal my pet few times more by some boss.....as someone with hercules - but that's also all. And if you fight mobs which dons't use magic attacks, even an Torgirn can do the same things as Hercules. Venos with Hercules are mostly just pissed of when they see, that someone can do the same things as they can do with 20m + '' wonder pet ''.0
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veno without herc....don't think they can solo squad mode TT70+....can they?
no offence, just wonder how far can normal pet go
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ViennaMcFly - Dreamweaver wrote: »I have no idea why venos without hercules would be useless. I quess most of the people just over-rate those pets total. I don't have an Hercules, got an bear and to be honest, there gives nothing what i can't do, what can do a veno with hercules. Uh ok, i must heal my pet few times more by some boss.....as someone with hercules - but that's also all. And if you fight mobs which dons't use magic attacks, even an Torgirn can do the same things as Hercules. Venos with Hercules are mostly just pissed of when they see, that someone can do the same things as they can do with 20m + '' wonder pet ''.
You can not tank any boss inside TT or in most FB's at anywhere close to the same level. Try you bear on a real boss and you'll see what I mean.0 -
Are you sure that i can't do TT runs for my lvl ?. If you have on Dreamweaver server a char, we can make TT solo runs all the day ( an no worries we wont die ). If you mean with an '' real boss '' hmm let's say ( im 65 ) to tank an FB 59 boss, my bear would die for sure. But i quess Hercules would die also, just 10-15 sec later. I'm not saying that my bear is better as some Cash Shop pet, for sure not !. No doubt Hercules & Phoenix are the best. Its just so, that Cash shop pets are verry expensive things. I would compare it to a Genie. You don't really need it, to go your way, with them it's just everything more easy and nothing else.0
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No. When people are talking about TT runs here, they almost always mean Squad mode. Any Veno can do a Solo TT run corresponding to their level with just about any levelled up pet. Only Hercs can tank Squad mode.
As for FB59, a level 65 herc wouldn't have any problems with the bosses in there.0 -
As someone who has had a Herc for a while I figured I would put in my 2 cents:
1. Herc is a worse tank than a Barb by almost every measurement. Barb will hold aggro better, barb can use apoth items, potions, charms etc. Barb will survive spikes better due to higher hp, and when you compare even 6 veno's healing vs. 2 clerics the Barb will beat them every time (BB + Ironheart), since veno's don't really stack over 2 healing anyway (if 2 can't keep him up, he's gonna get a bad spike and die). Herc can't be purified, can't position the mobs easily, can't pick up adds easily. Herc has 1 advantage, he's cheap to upkeep. Cheap on repair costs, and cheap on charms/potions for the clerics and barbs.
2. IMO, a veno's job does not consist of tanking, that can be a boosted side effect, but the main roles are luring, Debuffing and DD. And since none of those require a herc a veno does it's job just as well with or without a herc.
3. For normal grinding it doesn't make a difference if you have a Herc, a bear, a golem or a oddfoot pup. The difference with herc for a solo veno comes when you are taking on a boss that is at the edge of what you are capable of, in which case than yes, a herc is amazing. Oh, and to the poster above me, I was able to solo all of the FB59 bosses with a Herc at level 60.0 -
yea, when I talkin about TT, I mean Squad mode.
I see lots of veno with hercs askin guildm8 to open instance for them to do TT runs alone.
and IMO, Herc is good 1 thing: money making, it's a good tanker but unreliable ( cons as Shiga stated above).
Venoes make TT run become faster and easier, that needless to say, I like them whether they got a herc or not, but it's easier if you need some quick TT mats for your gear if you have a veno with herc around (a TT 1-3 normal squad need 2 hours, 3 venoes, 1 herc= 1hour o.o).0 -
Srry didn't know that venos with hercules can do squad mode tt runs alone and they fb's they can solo also. My pet can't do that. b:surrender
And if i stay honest, i don't care really if my little pet can't do such things, till now he had take care for my **** verry well and im sure he gonna do also in the future b:cute0 -
People can talk about it all they want, but until you get a herc/nix you won't fully understand the advantages of each. Even I was thinking a ****ing sawfly was comparable to a nix before I got the nix. I thought it wasn't going to be much of a difference. That was so incredibly wrong.0
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Literature - Harshlands wrote: »but until you get a herc/nix you won't fully understand the advantages of each.
This is the most intelligent statement made in this thread so far. If you don't have one, you have no right whatsoever to make any comments about it's strengths or weaknesses.0 -
Ok, a couple of clarifications:
This is flat out wrong. TT bosses, and World bosses, and probably bosses in Glade and Frost, too (I'm guessing there), are "skull" bosses, meaning they have 75% damage reduction against all player attacks. Nice thing about Venos is that their pets don't count as "player attacks", so pets do full damage, which is like giving them a 4X damage boost automatically, that stacks with everything! Venos with just about any pet are THE BEST DDers against such bosses. The ultimate TT squad is probably one Barb, two Clerics, and three Venos.Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »You cant do anything besides debuff in TT...
Another thing, any veno with just about any pet can solo TT Squad the same way a herc can, it just depends on what level the veno is. The herc allows the Veno to solo TT Squad a few levels earlier (maybe 5-10 lvls). It's an advantage, yes, but it doesn't actually let anyone do anything new, just earlier.
As for squads wanting the Veno with Herc, it makes sense if they want the Herc to tank, the Veno to heal, and everyone else to DD, which means faster runs, but it's also restricted to easier things. A barb with a cleric or two can tank MUCH more easily and safely than a Veno with Herc.0 -
Sylvini - Heavens Tear wrote: »Another thing, any veno with just about any pet can solo TT Squad the same way a herc can, it just depends on what level the veno is. The herc allows the Veno to solo TT Squad a few levels earlier (maybe 5-10 lvls). It's an advantage, yes, but it doesn't actually let anyone do anything new, just earlier.
uhm wat ?
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Sylvini - Heavens Tear wrote: »Another thing, any veno with just about any pet can solo TT Squad the same way a herc can, it just depends on what level the veno is. The herc allows the Veno to solo TT Squad a few levels earlier (maybe 5-10 lvls). It's an advantage, yes, but it doesn't actually let anyone do anything new, just earlier.
rofl
Epic fail. People need to stop making guesses at things they don't know about. =/0 -
Daerys - Sanctuary wrote: »This is the most intelligent statement made in this thread so far. If you don't have one, you have no right whatsoever to make any comments about it's strengths or weaknesses.
I somewhat agree with this. But I'm sure most of us at some time have partied with Hercs enough to realize just how much they are capable of. They are what they are. Powerful, and extremely so. But they just don't hold aggro, period. Except for TT Bosses, a Herc can pretty much always have aggro peeled off of it while tanking anything. They only have one skill to keep aggro, after all. I recently joined someone much higher than me in FB79, and my Magmite got aggro again, and again, and again. Which kinda sucked on some of those caster mobs... However, I will point this one beautiful fact out, for all of us Venos. What can't hit you, can't kill you. And with our skill, combined with a certain genie skill, we can cripple melee mobs enough to miss pretty much every single time. There are several ways to tank, after all. Nobody said you actually had to be hit to do it.0 -
NO DUH, think i dont know that? since when is a pet, 'the venomancer' it self, the only thing the veno can do is really debuff. whether TT, world, whatever.the pet is not -you.-so pets do full damage,Another thing, any veno with just about any pet can solo TT Squad the same way a herc can, it just depends on what level the veno is. The herc allows the Veno to solo TT Squad a few levels earlier (maybe 5-10 lvls). It's an advantage, yes, but it doesn't actually let anyone do anything new, just earlier.
As for squads wanting the Veno with Herc, it makes sense if they want the Herc to tank, the Veno to heal, and everyone else to DD, which means faster runs, but it's also restricted to easier things. A barb with a cleric or two can tank MUCH more easily and safely than a Veno with Herc.
you, are an idiot. no other pet can tank TT squad except maybe a high level golem doing 1-1, the bosses have way too much matk and patk, ive see 1-2 dimentora one shot 7x golems with his AOE. Herc at 75 or so has around 18k pdef, a golem has ~7. Herc will also have more than 3k hp. a golem will not.
as for barb tanking more safely than a golem, thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. a charmed cleric + barb are roughly equivalent to a herc + veno combo. the only thing it does is save on repair and charm fees. get some levels and learn TT before acting like you know everything.Originally Posted by Literature - Harshlands
but until you get a herc/phoenix you won't fully understand the advantages of each.
youve only had it a day and a half, and mr "my average play time is 3 hrs a day" isnt long enough to get it to a level where it can even compare. go get it to 80+ then you can tell us how much better it is.Even I was thinking a ****ing sawfly was comparable to a nix before I got the nix. I thought it wasn't going to be much of a difference. That was so incredibly wrong.0 -
That's very much a matter of perspective. The pet is much like a piece of equipment, or like a genie, in it's relation to the PC, in that they come as a package deal. You can't get the pet without the Veno. Even if the Veno sits there and does nothing, the pet is only there because the Veno is, which means, as far as characters and squad slots go, everything the pet does is credited to the Veno that brought it.Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »NO DUH, think i dont know that? since when is a pet, 'the venomancer' it self, the only thing the veno can do is really debuff. whether TT, world, whatever.the pet is not -you.-
That's funny, since my Mag took Dimentora's full assault for about 12 seconds at lvl 68 when our barb dced. Now, yes, it died, and yes, the party wiped, but a lvl 68 Mag, without even having any of it's buffs on (tough, threaten), took multiple hits from Dimentora. Maybe what you saw was a critical, as I could easily believe a critical would have 1-hitted my Mag.Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »you, are an idiot. no other pet can tank TT squad except maybe a high level golem doing 1-1, the bosses have way too much matk and patk, ive see 1-2 dimentora one shot 7x golems with his AOE. Herc at 75 or so has around 18k pdef, a golem has ~7. Herc will also have more than 3k hp. a golem will not.
Except that:Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »as for barb tanking more safely than a golem, thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. a charmed cleric + barb are roughly equivalent to a herc + veno combo. the only thing it does is save on repair and charm fees.
1.) Barbs have more HP
2.) Clerics have better heals/buffs
3.) Outside of Skull bosses, Barbs keep aggro better
In terms of raw function, they're the same. In terms of effectiveness, the Veno/Herc is like a mini-Cleric/Barb, they're less effective at everything.0 -
thats not tanking. 12 seconds lol..12 seconds.... yes, it died, and yes, the party wiped,
duh, barb skills have fixed aggro in their skills, a barb can steal from a herc any time. what the herc has that barb doesnt, is near 2x the pdef. its not 'less effective' in most cases its faster, because the barb can DD in human form and not even worry about taking it.Except that:
1.) Barbs have more HP
2.) Clerics have better heals/buffs
3.) Outside of Skull bosses, Barbs keep aggro better
now like i said, go lrn 2 TT before claiming to be super pro at it.
herc tanking bosses like dimentora, vipenalt, fataliqua, feng, all the 3-1 bosses, cosmo force... etc is way more quicker andd effective than a barb. until you gain that experience, dont come arguing with your 'opinions' you call fact.0 -
Yeah... you kinda missed the point there. The point is that, with enough heal, anything that doesn't 1-hit the pet can be tanked by that pet. If my Mag could take more than one hit and not die, then I just need better healing (achieved through leveling) to be able to tank it. Now sure, I'll bet a Veno with Herc could solo it at 68, but you said that the Herc can do things no other pet can do... such as tanking Demontora... which a Mag can do.Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »thats not tanking. 12 seconds lol..
Of course they can, because those are skull bosses, but could the same be said about the FB79 bosses?Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »now like i said, go lrn 2 TT before claiming to be super pro at it.
herc tanking bosses like dimentora, vipenalt, fataliqua, feng, all the 3-1 bosses, cosmo force... etc is way more quicker andd effective than a barb.
There is a distinct, quantifiable, technical difference between opinions and facts. What I presented were facts. I drew a conclusion from them that you may disagree with, but you have yet to dispute a single one of my facts.Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »until you gain that experience, dont come arguing with your 'opinions' you call fact.0 -
just the sheer fact you think any pet outside a herc can solo TT squad shows how inexperienced and ludicrous you are. just because you can 'take a hit and not die' does not automatically mean tanking is plausible. unless your golem magically gets herc skills from DT, dont go making whack claims.Originally Posted by Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
now like i said, go lrn 2 TT before claiming to be super pro at it.
herc tanking bosses like dimentora, vipenalt, fataliqua, feng, all the 3-1 bosses, cosmo force... etc is way more quicker andd effective than a barb.
how do these even coincide? im talking solely about TT, this entire argument has revolved around TT (and dont go talking about FB79 bosses and golems either lol, they hit harder than TT bosses, they also love to use magic). the only time the herc would be more effective in FBs is when theres no cleric.Of course they can, because those are skull bosses, but could the same be said about the FB79 bosses?
ive refuted you plenty. i think youre just in denialbut you have yet to dispute a single one of my facts.0 -
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2731711&postcount=195
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2731751&postcount=196
2 more people who obviously know you dont know ****.0 -
You guys both are somewhat right here about TT and tanking. While, no, a Golem isn't going to solo TT for several, several levels, there is an opportunity here. The golem survived for 12 seconds. That actually surpasses my usual benchmark test for determining tankability of a boss. I usually use something I call a "Three Hit" test. If using only my heals alone, a pet can survive 3 hits or more, then with at least 2 more Venos, a pet can usually tank said boss. As such, drag your Veno friends in with you, make it about 4 of you, and you could probably do it. Just make sure you have Clerics for the increased Magic Attack, and probably BB or RB to assist for the AoE's or DD.0
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you can heal out of range of the AOE its a short range physical radiating out from the target, the fact is, she said SOLO lol; in which she is flat out wrongOriginally Posted by Sylvini - Heavens Tear
Another thing, any veno with just about any pet can solo TT Squad the same way a herc can, it just depends on what level the veno is. The herc allows the Veno to solo TT Squad a few levels earlier (maybe 5-10 lvls). It's an advantage, yes, but it doesn't actually let anyone do anything new, just earlier.0 -
On the end is the name of the topic if venos are useless without Hercules. You must note that this pet cost a lot of money.150 (+ ) ?Euro for an video game pet it's ( for me ), ridiculous.And everyone which think, that an veno is useless without 150 ( + ) ?. Euro video game pet is crazy or some 12 + years old kid which dosn't even know what is real money. And even if is possible to buy this pet without real money, it's
ridiculous to expect from someone which choice an venomancer to play, that he should grid half year,....for an pet.0 -
ViennaMcFly - Dreamweaver wrote: »On the end is the name of the topic if venos are useless without Hercules. You must note that this pet cost a lot of money.150 (+ ) ?Euro for an video game pet it's ( for me ), ridiculous.And everyone which think, that an veno is useless without 150 ( + ) ?. Euro video game pet is crazy or some 12 + years old kid which dosn't even know what is real money. And even if is possible to buy this pet without real money, it's
ridiculous to expect from someone which choice an venomancer to play, that he should grid half year,....for an pet.
if it takes you half a year to grind ~200gold as a veno let alone any class, you should just quit now, in your 60s a 500k-million a day is in no way difficult to obtain by just grinding, let alone farming specific things to make more money0 -
The principle is simple. If my pet can survive one or two hits (depending on relative damage and healing speeds), then it comes down to the effectiveness of healer versus damager. If the mob can damage the pet faster than I can heal it, then the pet dies and I run or die. If I can heal the pet faster then the mob can damage it, the mob dies and I win. Here's the kicker, though: I can level and improve my heal, the mob can't. A Veno with a Herc can solo sooner than a Veno with a Mag, but to say that it's impossible with a Mag is ridiculous. Are you seriously trying to tell me that a 99 Mag with a 99 Veno (as an extreme example) with maxed heal couldn't manage 1-2 Squad Dimentora solo?Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »just the sheer fact you think any pet outside a herc can solo TT squad shows how inexperienced and ludicrous you are. just because you can 'take a hit and not die' does not automatically mean tanking is plausible. unless your golem magically gets herc skills from DT, dont go making whack claims.
The original topic was in general, and the specific example was for "a boss that the OP needed". That implies (though not necessarily proves) that this was NOT in TT. TT came up as just an example, a special situation in which Veno pet damage spikes. It's admitedly a good testing ground for comparing different pets, as you see all kinds of stuff in there, but it's hardly the standard rule when comparing Veno/Pet to Barb/Cleric.Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »how do these even coincide? im talking solely about TT, this entire argument has revolved around TT (and dont go talking about FB79 bosses and golems either lol, they hit harder than TT bosses, they also love to use magic). the only time the herc would be more effective in FBs is when theres no cleric.
No, you've said I was wrong. Aside from Herc having higher stats and better buffs, you have yet to cite a single fact that shows the Herc is qualitatively different from a Mag. Something to remember is that you saying it is so isn't the same as you proving it is so.Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »ive refuted you plenty. i think youre just in denial
Another thing to remember is that the Mag CAN learn the skills that really make Herc such a killer. It may take a month or so, and cost (Hmm, Strong, Protect, does Reflect actually reduce damage at all? If not, it just speeds the fight a bit, we can do without it for simplicity's sake) maybe 10M or a few lucky runs in DT, and still not have QUITE the same power as a Herc, but it's MUCH closer. Add in Blessing, (maybe another 5M?) and the Mag even has similar HP to the Herc (though I think I'd prefer Tough for less damage). That's about 1/2 cost for a similar pet. Sure, MDef is still noticably lower, but it's managable.
Again, I am NOT saying a Mag is just as good as a Herc, the Herc is VERY impressive and worth the money (provided it's in-game, I don't think anything in a game is worth $200), but it is just a suped-up verson of other pets (since it has good MDef AND PDef, the Mag may not be the best comparison), not a qualitatively different creature that allows whole new realms of functionality.
One thing I could see the Herc doing that a Mag simply couldn't, no matter what, is end-game material, where the Mag just doesn't have the potential to level any more. If you tell me no Mag could ever solo 3-3 (without raising the level cap at least), then I have no arguement.0 -
Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »if it takes you half a year to grind ~200gold as a veno let alone any class, you should just quit now, in your 60s a 500k-million a day is in no way difficult to obtain by just grinding, let alone farming specific things to make more money
When i read your post i can only write > you are probably exactly one of those 12 years old kids or some freak with only video game life <. Some people got also other things to do in life as to grid whole the day coins in a video game. I'm sure you can grid 500m @ day and you can probably even make 10 lvl's at day, but im happy that i can't do it, because i have more important things to do.0 -
the hugest flaw in your argument:
do you even know what the hell hercs skills do?No, you've said I was wrong. Aside from Herc having higher stats and better buffs, you have yet to cite a single fact that shows the Herc is qualitatively different from a Mag.
you cant compare the herc stats:
4135 2672 8952 7161 2297 1225 0.8 8.1
to a golems:
2934 3240 8792 5861 1354 1003 0.6 6.2
simply because, hercs skills.
#1 Protect, Increases Pdef + 150% thats (8952+13428) = 22380 pdef. no barb or Bm can get that, even fully buffed.
#2 (whatever the magic skill is called) increases magic def + 150%
(7161+10742) =17903 mdef
#3 reflect which reflects 70% of melee dmg as if herc didnt have the pdef buff on whereas he can easily reflect 4k+ dmg on hits over 1200
quite frankly i dont see how golems pdef even can handle dimentora, if he still hits for 700-900 dmg on herc who has 20k+.
Now Im not going to dig up Solandri/OMGLAZERZ math in a way old thread, but they proved that a herc out damages a golem in a long fight after about 10 minutes, assuming hits and bash always connected, the increased attack speed takes more precedence over the golems spike damage.
Now a higher level golem may be able to take on dimentora with 2 healers, A golem your level, and in the 70s cannot, and will not ever SOLO TT squad like you claim it can. Ive never seen a golem hold chin, let alone dimentora.
Sure your magmite can get herc skills, but hes still in all ways inferior. why cant you just admit youre wrong? youve already proved you lack any experience so i dont know why you keep taking everything i say out of context, and then making **** up like youre a professional on the matter. you dont know anything about herc, you dont know anything about TT, leave this to the big boys.0 -
also... i see you said something about a critical hit from a monster in your earlier post. since when do monsters get 'critical hits' in PW. they would say if they did, not get a random huge number out of nowhere. i need proof and hard evidence that they exist or thats null also :P
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2734632&postcount=210 <- for sylvini because she/he doesnt know what herc can do.0
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