Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?

Isala - Sanctuary

So, I saw a World Chat shout the other day, screaming for anyone who could help do a boss to come and assist with it. I, also needing the boss, volunteered my services, and was asked if I had a Herc, when I informed him that no, I did not, I was promptly ignored. This is not the only time I have a seen Venos without Hercs being treated like ****. Everywhere I look, I see people shouting for "Veno with Herc!" What gives? I know, it's the best tank in the entire game, I know that it's capable of doing pretty much 99% of the bosses, but still, why the hell would you ignore anyone trying to help, regardless of if they have Herc or not?

Would you do the same for the other classes? "Oh, look, a Wizard without full TT, YUCK! Let's leave him alone", or "Ew... a Non Tiger-Form barb, let's ignore the crappy tanker.", or "A cleric without Charm, Do not WANT."

The sad part is, I know a few people already are guilty of doing these things. What the bloody Hell, people? Just because we don't play the game the way you think we should play it suddenly means that we aren't worth your time? If you're so God damned good at this game, why the Hell did you ask for help in the first place? If someone volunteers to help you after you've asked for help, don't pick apart what they have, or don't have. You don't know a damn thing about how they play. Obviously, if they offered to help you, they're probably a decent person, and since they're not QQing and whining for help, they're probably a decent player. Hell, I've seen things done better by players that defied the standards than the ones that are exactly the same as everyone else.

It just disgusts me how some you are so wrapped up in the "Standards of PW" that you ignore those who don't fit the molds. Veno doesn't mean Herc. Clerics are not just your healing slaves. Barbs aren't just there to have the **** beat out of them and do very little damage.

And just FYI? I party with Charmless Clerics all the time. The ones who don't carry charms are usually good enough to carry the powders to make up for it.

But it seems like some people wouldn't even give them the chance. And, yeah. I am not happy about that. I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but at this point, if I can get even one person to stop and think about how they play, it'll all be worth it.

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

You cant do anything besides debuff in TT, you cant rebirth, and it makes the barb have to tank bosses in FBs, it increases repair costs, and makes things highly inefficient as with a second tank you can wipe out mobs way faster

pooritan

wrong
veno deflect buff is important in instaces and they can pull mobs
thats the main reason why i always want a veno in a squad
not because of hercs. if they can make my job a bit easier its fine for me. but not neccessarry

and venos without herc can do rebirth. herc doesn't really matter in there

a squad with a herc veno that is only used to do things alone and can't adapt to teamwork is more inefficient then a veno without that is just a good team player to use their capabilites to improve whole squad performance

epherine

Maybe venos should have been made so they have better usability in group PvE rather than giving them two cash shop pets that cause game imbalance through the use of money, and force other venos to either buy or be looked down upon endgame.

Then again, that wouldn't make any money. Best off is to join a faction of people who don't care about these things, or to join groups of people who at least know better than to be elitist.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary

Greed. =/

10char

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear

i totally agree with this!

when i began playing this, back in Nov, almost no one had a herc, and few had phoenixes. the gold standard was a well levled golem, because people preferred to catch and raise their own pets, to be proud of their skills as a veno. it takes no skill to buy something, just money. another reason no one had hercs then was that venos prided themselves on having 'the right tool for the job', by having many different pets trained to handle different mobs. now people shell out money, and have a big butterball do it all, with perhaps the addition of a pet to pull. to me, this is rather sad. one of the joys of being a veno for me is variety of pets, and the point of leveling is to be able to catch new ones, to enjoy playing with them. but those who buy a herc to use all the time, are missing the whole point of being a veno, i think. its like a tool you bought, not a pet that you saw in the wild, that you saw, hunted, caught and made friends with. and to have to use only the one all the time would be so boring...like wearing the same thing daily, fighting the same mob though the whole game. i love having all my different ones, and bring out ones to partner me in battles, even though they perhaps arent the best, just to have the change in company.

another reason its not fair to diss venos without hercs is that many of us have put the money into leveling our moves and those of our pets. as one goes into the higher levels, moves become insanely expensive, and do not permit any purchases other than basics most of the time...most certainly not the buying of massive amounts of Sofs or feathers. so though we would also like to have the 'yellow barb' in our bags, we cant afford it. its that simple.

so please, when looking for venos for squads, please dont discriminate. which would you rather have: a herc that is not leveled, that will just get every one killed,just so you have the flavour of the month pet in your squad or a golem who is high level, has the moves necessary to do the job at hand?

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, I saw a World Chat shout the other day, screaming for anyone who could help do a boss to come and assist with it. I, also needing the boss, volunteered my services, and was asked if I had a Herc, when I informed him that no, I did not, I was promptly ignored. This is not the only time I have a seen Venos without Hercs being treated like ****. Everywhere I look, I see people shouting for "Veno with Herc!" What gives? I know, it's the best tank in the entire game, I know that it's capable of doing pretty much 99% of the bosses, but still, why the hell would you ignore anyone trying to help, regardless of if they have Herc or not?

Would you do the same for the other classes? "Oh, look, a Wizard without full TT, YUCK! Let's leave him alone", or "Ew... a Non Tiger-Form barb, let's ignore the crappy tanker.", or "A cleric without Charm, Do not WANT."

The sad part is, I know a few people already are guilty of doing these things. What the bloody Hell, people? Just because we don't play the game the way you think we should play it suddenly means that we aren't worth your time? If you're so God damned good at this game, why the Hell did you ask for help in the first place? If someone volunteers to help you after you've asked for help, don't pick apart what they have, or don't have. You don't know a damn thing about how they play. Obviously, if they offered to help you, they're probably a decent person, and since they're not QQing and whining for help, they're probably a decent player. Hell, I've seen things done better by players that defied the standards than the ones that are exactly the same as everyone else.

It just disgusts me how some you are so wrapped up in the "Standards of PW" that you ignore those who don't fit the molds. Veno doesn't mean Herc. Clerics are not just your healing slaves. Barbs aren't just there to have the **** beat out of them and do very little damage.

And just FYI? I party with Charmless Clerics all the time. The ones who don't carry charms are usually good enough to carry the powders to make up for it.

But it seems like some people wouldn't even give them the chance. And, yeah. I am not happy about that. I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but at this point, if I can get even one person to stop and think about how they play, it'll all be worth it.

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

a squad with a herc veno that is only used to do things alone and can't adapt to teamwork is more inefficient then a veno without that is just a good team player to use their capabilites to improve whole squad performance

dont make things up they dont add to your argument. you -need- a herc to kill those mobs during bean collecting, ive seen them kill wizards in LA who have 2x the pdef of my old golem.

it saves time and money in TT by minimizing repair costs, and makes mob luring and killing faster whether its tanking, or pulling a mob for the barb while holding its own.

5$ says i can outplay any veno without a herc, and for the most part i have yet to be proven wrong :P

FYI: you dont need MONEY to buy one, i got my legendary pets for ~40m and ive been playing maybe 3 1/2 months max

Holystic - Sanctuary

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

A cleric without Charm, Do not WANT.

*Sigh* Welcome to the world of clerics. Most people wont even look at you if you under 75+ for healing. "NEED 75+ Cleric for Jewel". Its seems most people have some seriously ludicrous idea on what is needed to heal some of these bosses or instances.Trust me, I'm just as frustrated as you are. I love proving these type of people wrong so its great when we do some **** like Solo heal a boss where everyone thinks you need 2 healers (1 to heal tank , 1 for BB). **** em , play how you want to play b:laugh

LloydAsplund - Sanctuary

Venos without hercs are not useless, they're just LESS useful. Considering your situation, you needed some boss. What if the squad already had 5 people that needed the boss and no one was able to tank the boss. Adding another person that did not have the ability to tank (with the help of other squad members) will get no where. 6 people in a squad and no one able to take the boss, pretty useless imo.

Also, for rebirth, can you imagine having a charmless archer for DD? It totally depends on the situation, and the activity.

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

Holystic - Sanctuary wrote: »

*Sigh* Welcome to the world of clerics. Most people wont even look at you if you under 75+ for healing. "NEED 75+ Cleric for Jewel". Its seems most people have some seriously ludicrous idea on what is needed to heal some of these bosses or instances.Trust me, I'm just as frustrated as you are. I love proving these type of people wrong so its great when we do some **** like Solo heal a boss where everyone thinks you need 2 healers (1 to heal tank , 1 for BB). **** em , play how you want to play b:laugh

you cant do bosses like soul banisher like that, he'll eat you alive :O. yall neeeeeed BB + charm to live his ****.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

A properly leveled and skilled golem with a veno who knows what she is doing is very effective.

Period.

Mizorie - Lost City

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, I saw a World Chat shout the other day, screaming for anyone who could help do a boss to come and assist with it. I, also needing the boss, volunteered my services, and was asked if I had a Herc, when I informed him that no, I did not, I was promptly ignored. This is not the only time I have a seen Venos without Hercs being treated like ****. Everywhere I look, I see people shouting for "Veno with Herc!" What gives? I know, it's the best tank in the entire game, I know that it's capable of doing pretty much 99% of the bosses, but still, why the hell would you ignore anyone trying to help, regardless of if they have Herc or not?

Would you do the same for the other classes? "Oh, look, a Wizard without full TT, YUCK! Let's leave him alone", or "Ew... a Non Tiger-Form barb, let's ignore the crappy tanker.", or "A cleric without Charm, Do not WANT."

The sad part is, I know a few people already are guilty of doing these things. What the bloody Hell, people? Just because we don't play the game the way you think we should play it suddenly means that we aren't worth your time? If you're so God damned good at this game, why the Hell did you ask for help in the first place? If someone volunteers to help you after you've asked for help, don't pick apart what they have, or don't have. You don't know a damn thing about how they play. Obviously, if they offered to help you, they're probably a decent person, and since they're not QQing and whining for help, they're probably a decent player. Hell, I've seen things done better by players that defied the standards than the ones that are exactly the same as everyone else.

It just disgusts me how some you are so wrapped up in the "Standards of PW" that you ignore those who don't fit the molds. Veno doesn't mean Herc. Clerics are not just your healing slaves. Barbs aren't just there to have the **** beat out of them and do very little damage.

And just FYI? I party with Charmless Clerics all the time. The ones who don't carry charms are usually good enough to carry the powders to make up for it.

But it seems like some people wouldn't even give them the chance. And, yeah. I am not happy about that. I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but at this point, if I can get even one person to stop and think about how they play, it'll all be worth it.

Laughed when I saw that, seems like you were trying to come up with a reason but failed.

Isala - Sanctuary

Mizorie - Lost City wrote: »

Laughed when I saw that, seems like you were trying to come up with a reason but failed.

Pretty much, yeah. Better than my first thought, which was just plain "Eww, LA Wizard." Then I realized that people do like them for Rebirth.

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

people just go "eww a wizard," no reasons, people just hate wizards.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Hercs will always be preferred because they are the more expensive pet, and if they're going to be heck expensive, they better have some good points. However, Tearvalerin's arguments are basically along the lines of "My +8 bow DDs better than your +3 bow, so you might as well not shoot your +3 bow anyways."

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

"My +8 bow DDs better than your +3 bow, so you might as well not shoot your +3 bow anyways."

no they arent lol. im giving reasons why people need one for high end gaming, and reasons why theyre superior to a **** golem.

Uiztrollin - Harshlands

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »

people just go "eww a wizard," no reasons, people just hate wizards.

LOL'd

But I am guilty of that. I used to just invite "venos with herc" for fbs like 39 etc when a cleric couldn't appear, but then I just started inviting any veno that could get the job done.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary

Holystic - Sanctuary wrote: »

*Sigh* Welcome to the world of clerics. Most people wont even look at you if you under 75+ for healing. "NEED 75+ Cleric for Jewel"

Let the wimps die, that's what I say! b:victory

Seriously, I love having a Cleric there to help, but I wasted 30 mins. of my life once waiting for a second high-lvl. Cleric to come help with Jewel, because the party I was with insisted we'd need at least 2 Clerics, plus another higher level tank, because apparently a mere lvl. 60 Barb can't possibly tank Jewel even though I'm loaded down with virtually every self-healing item in the game. Of course we over-killed (and "over-healed") the whole thing by a ridiculous amount.

A couple of days later I tanked Jewel just fine, twice, with just my lvl. 66 charmless Cleric friend helping out. The two of us were more than enough to handle the task.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »

Everywhere I look, I see people shouting for "Veno with Herc!" What gives? I know, it's the best tank in the entire game, I know that it's capable of doing pretty much 99% of the bosses, but still, why the hell would you ignore anyone trying to help, regardless of if they have Herc or not?

It's just a phase for comformity and ****. But the funny thing is is that new pets are coming out.b:chuckle So in other words, Hercules might not be the best thing anymore. Godly Dragon FTW lol just kidding >.> You didn't hear me say anything. It's the way people are sadly.

Nayiro - Sanctuary

Some one said that they saw LA Wizzies with more def then a Magnamite. My lvl 57 Magnamite has like 4-5Kish phy def. Show me a lvl 57 LA Wizzie with that Phys def.

Also, Magnamites can tank just as well as Hercs, you just need to spam heal a lot more. I mean ssrly, what did people do before herc?

Daerys - Sanctuary

Nayiro - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also, Magnamites can tank just as well as Hercs, you just need to spam heal a lot more. I mean ssrly, what did people do before herc?

Nayiro, sorry but you're just wrong. There are a LOT of bosses a herc can tank at or even below the "normal" level to do so. A magmite can, at best, tank a few bosses at a few levels higher than "normal".

Before a herc barbs did the vast majority of the tanking.

@OP
A herc will always do the job better, simple as that. In a lot of cases anything other than a herc won't do it at all. With other pets the margin for error is far far greater.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

The thing about herc is that is has almost double the HP of the golem, and about the same pDef and a mDef that is equally very high.

All the other things a golem can do, pretty much as well, and you can even buy the skills that come with Herc, but you really have no way to get those extra hp in it, and that is the HUGE difference. You are less likely to get your herc one-hitted than to get your golem one-hitted, not to mention it gives you a little safety net for lag or messed up timing.

I can "almost" solo the first boss in Frost, and "almost" solo some of the bosses in TT, with the extra 2k hp the herc would give that "almost" able to tank would turn into "easly" solo.

I do not have a herc, just a golem with 3 attack skills and with threaten, and a few other pets.

Hasukurobi - Heavens Tear

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »

people just go "eww a wizard," no reasons, people just hate wizards.

QFT I have heard that many a time...But it can be hard to justify a Wizard...I mean they are a magic damage dealer...Yay...So Is a Cleric but they can heal, buff, and revive you. Poor wizzies lol. Personally, I am starting to leave archers off my list too because they usually pull aggro from the Tanker even if he is several levels higher and get us all killed.

Anyway, as for the OP's point it is rather dense of them to think that way but you know what? Forget about those losers LOL. If they do not want your help then too bad for them, you have better ways to spend your time. The Cleric example is a great one because we had a Cleric who did not think he could do FB 39 because of no charm and low level LOL. We gave him some apothecary items and he did just fine. I would even let a Cleric Meditate if they needed to, I am not an impatient kid who cannot work with my help if need be.

I also love how a lot of these Herc Venos have no idea how to work with another Veno at all. You squad with them and they are lost and do not even know you can heal eachother's pet *rolls eyes*. I can handle most bosses without Herc with just one other Veno close to my level who knows how to dual heal a pet.

But you think you have problems without Herc? LOL Try being a Fox Veno like me. We get overlooked all the time because we are different but whenever someone has ran with me in an FB or against a boss they are always like "Wow! You were awesome! Thanks for the help!" LOL. I have survived situations the Tiger Barb died in and no flimsy Mage Veno would have lived through that. People who stick to the norm and never try anything are just too afraid they might somehow lose out and it is a shame they may never realize that they do things the hard way but I say let them live in mediocrity.

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

Uh you guys seem to forget

and about the same pDef and a mDef that is equally very high.

hercs pdef move makes him have well over 24k pdef in his 90s. stacked with ~4k hp. a golem will never be as good as herc.

@ nayiro: LA wizards have stone barrier and can easily break a golems def with pdef gems. Ive seen a 9x LA wiz with 14k pdef :P

Nayiro - Sanctuary

forgot about that stone move.

But ew, wizzes...

Alphae - Lost City

Furthermore, golems are simply destroyed by mag attacks. They die. Fast.

Hercs can tank many mag attack bosses.

I have both a golem and a herc, and I must say that I like both. The golem's damage is higher, quite quite nice, herc is great for grinding in tight spaces. I'll always favor the herc a little because he requires less healing.

And man, is the golem easier on the eyes. XD

david12345

Magmite doesn't do more damage then herc. Sure, each hit will hit harder but 1) herc hits faster then golem and 2) don't forget the reflect on herc. On some bosses the reflect can go over 3-4k each time the boss hits.

Magmite is utterly inferior to herc in pretty much every way. A herc veno will do everything a magmite veno does faster, better, and with more chance of succes. People don't want to fail, die and waste time and money (charm waste sucks)... so when they actively need a veno, they will find a herc veno, especially since herc venos are so easy to find these days.

In any case, even a herc veno is sometimes considered added baggage, like in rb (litrally the only reason are for the auras, the veno debuffs are nice but not essential) and I hear rb delta groups gladly ignore venos completely.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

david12345 wrote: »

Magmite doesn't do more damage then herc. Sure, each hit will hit harder but 1) herc hits faster then golem and 2) don't forget the reflect on herc. On some bosses the reflect can go over 3-4k each time the boss hits.

Magmite is utterly inferior to herc in pretty much every way. A herc veno will do everything a magmite veno does faster, better, and with more chance of succes. People don't want to fail, die and waste time and money (charm waste sucks)... so when they actively need a veno, they will find a herc veno, especially since herc venos are so easy to find these days.

In any case, even a herc veno is sometimes considered added baggage, like in rb (litrally the only reason are for the auras, the veno debuffs are nice but not essential) and I hear rb delta groups gladly ignore venos completely.

Who cares? Doesn't negate that venos without a herc are not useless.

david12345

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Who cares? Doesn't negate that venos without a herc are not useless.

They are not useless, but since its so easy to find a herc veno, they might aswell be.

Isala - Sanctuary

Hasukurobi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But you think you have problems without Herc? LOL Try being a Fox Veno like me.

Hybrid here. I feel your pain. But then again, we do things so nicely in certain situations. Fox Form in LA almost gives us as much defense as a Normal Form Barb. b:chuckle Not to mention that we aren't actually taking every single hit, due to our lovely Accuracy debuffing attack, right? Now, if you're HA, you probably blow me out of the water in sheer tankability.

Also, to all posters. I understand why it's prefered, and thank you for pointing out the major differences, and why it would be considered pointless to invite a Veno sans Herc to tank. I still don't quite think it's fair, but obviously, there are huge reasons as to why it is the way it is.

Also, I've dealt with similar stories to Warrenwolf's, about people wanting to overdo the Clerics. Long before I could take Gouf with Pet heals, I discovered that as long as I was careful about how I let my charm tick, I could, in fact, take him down, with a lovely combination of Bramble Hood and Fox. Of course, nobody is going to listen to a Veno say they can tank a boss like Gouf without a pet, right? So, the Big Bad BM struts his stuff and goes in after the boss. We had no cleric, and only me and the low veno that needed the quest. Well, of course, the BM proceeds to get pwned, and starts yelling about how we need a cleric, and how he's trying to get one, and we should wait for him to get back with a cleric, on and on and on about we need this, this, this and that. Meanwhile, I've been slugging away with the other Veno, and end up taking Gouf down right as the BM gets back. I laughed. Hard.

Then, there was the Slitt incident. I figured out how Slitt works, how to destroy him without dying, to the point where I could even solo him. I head to him to do my thing, and this Veno stops me, and asks if I can help her heal her pet, a Torgrin Brave. I know immediately, it's not going to work, and I try to tell her so, well... Long story short. I'm right. Pet drops instantly, other veno scatters. I inform her "Run. I got this." And proceed to beat the ever loving **** out of Slitt. Of course, by the time I was done, the skies above my head were filled with Wizards. Not clerics, but Wizards healing me to keep me alive. We all got a laugh out of that one. Of course, what made it even better is the squad I encountered when I went to help a Barb friend. They were armed to the teeth with Clerics etc. And they all made the mistake of staying in his AoE Manadrain. I, of course, having stepped back when they told me they only had room for my friend was beside myself with glee as I watched this huge party all complain about the manadrain.

I always found it funny, that a makeshift team of Wizards and Venos were more effective than the Clerics, Barb, BM, Wizard, Archer squad that came to destroy him.

It just kinda proves that you can have the "Optimum party" and still not be anywhere near as effective as a group of random people that comes togther. It's all about strategy in this game.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

david12345 wrote: »

They are not useless, but since its so easy to find a herc veno, they might aswell be.

How does that make them useless?