Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?

tweakz

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Cub comes closest and can take 80% the magical damage of the herc before dead.

Shadou Cub Lv.90 HP: 3149 Mdef:7594
Armored Bear LV.90 HP:3149 Mdef: 7618

_River - Heavens Tear

Foxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So you have a normal pet because you don't want to heal all the time?
Riiight. *scratches head*
Hate to break it to you, but try any boss with a normal pet and you wont have time to do anything but heal.


More lol.
Good luck farming fb89 with a normal pet. I found it challenging enough in the 90's with a herc. But I suppose thats cos Im one of these evil herc owners who lack skill.
We all believe you.


Uhh, I dont recall saying that. Maybe that comment was directed to someone else?
Personally I find taking the **** out of clueless herc haters too much fun to pass up.

Nah its not that I don't want to heal all the time, cause I do a good combo of both

I farm fb89s with my armored bear btw. So I don't need a herc. I didn't say herc owners were evil or lacked skill. Please don't misunderstand. I just think that people who say we HAVE to have a herc should reconsider. Those of us without hercs are just as capable as those with hercs. That's all I'm saying. I don't like that we're discriminated against because we don't have hercs.

And that last comment was directed at someone else ^^ Sorry for the confusion.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

best pdef/mdef, highest hp, high regen, reflect....less heals needed, maor ablity to cast attack b:thanks

pet to lure boss? learn genies :]
you loose money farming 89s, wouldnt happen with a herc
baught a mystical tome recently? +1 for venos with herc know the game better

The only difference between a veno with a herc and one without a herc is one has a herc and the other doesn't. Getting a herc didn't make them any better or smarter than they were before.

_River - Heavens Tear

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The only difference between a veno with a herc and one without a herc is one has a herc and the other doesn't. Getting a herc didn't make them any better or smarter than they were before.

A-freaking-men.

Notgood - Heavens Tear

hey people, i agree with my fellow bunny who made this thread. If your don't like venos with hercs deal with it... Don't hate don't discimiate

BratFury - Heavens Tear

As so many people have been quick to point out, it takes much less talent to use a herc. Therefore, you can assume by that, that a person who tanks WITHOUT a herc has to work harder at being as good as a person with a herc. That seems to be what everyone OWNING a herc keeps trying to point out. But it doesn't sound so good coming from the other direction eh?

The main argument has been that a herc tanks better than anything else. So that would mean that anyone without one has utilized their skills better. Has had to work that much harder.

Foxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I see a lot of these sorts of posts.
Why do so many posters seem to think that Herc owners lack skills?

I bet the average herc owner plays better and knows a lot more abut the game than the average non herc owner.This is the most assinine comment I have EVER seen on here. My son who plays this knows more about the game than most adults who play. He pays attention and hasn't cared to level and has been more observant than most. You can not say that one person would know MORE about the game JUST BECAUSE they own a herc. Thats like saying a doctor who is no longer in practice doesn't know as much about medicine as a 1 year resident. GET A CLUE?
In fact at high level, you have to wonder why a veno hasnt got a herc. What did they do with their money.Well miss fancy pants not all of us have millions of coins at high levels, we get those things called weapons and gears with our in game. And we do not pour hundreds of real dolalrs into a game to get a pet. BTW.. I am totally unbiased on all of this b/c I do NOT play a veno at all in this game. But you are one arrogant person. Warning bells.

Cambriella - Sanctuary

BratFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As so many people have been quick to point out, it takes much less talent to use a herc. Therefore, you can assume by that, that a person who tanks WITHOUT a herc has to work harder at being as good as a person with a herc. That seems to be what everyone OWNING a herc keeps trying to point out. But it doesn't sound so good coming from the other direction eh?

The main argument has been that a herc tanks better than anything else. So that would mean that anyone without one has utilized their skills better. Has had to work that much harder.

That's funny. It's like saying barbs don't know how to play because they take more hits than a wizard. They are less talented, right? Do you even think before you type?

I've tried tanking with both a Herc and a Magmite and use both because if for some reason Herc dies, I have a backup for a small amount of time, because the Magmite WILL die faster. But the difference between the two is enormous. I spent sooo much money building up the levels of skills and picking the best tanking skills for my Magmite. He's still very much second to the Herc. By a lot.

Btw, I did not put one real dollar into the Herc, and saved up in game (a friend helped as well). Guess what? It's about LEARNING how to play the game, make money, save towards something that helps out tremendously and advancing. It's the same reason you do TT's to get mats for better gears. The same reason you kill ANY mob in game... to advance!

Is a veno w/o a Herc useless? No, not at all. But no matter how "talented" a player is... you can't out-talent stats. If a boss does a certain amount of damage her hit, you simply can't MAKE a Magmite perform the exact same!

There is a reason the Herc costs 20+ million. There's a reason groups prefer a Veno with a Herc. A good veno will have several pets at her disposal, for different situations. One of them, should be the Herc.

If there was a scroll for wizards to have a spell that made them hands down the best magic DPS or crowd control in the game, and it cost 20+ million, then the wizard should get it. If it was proven to make the parties go faster and more efficiently, then would we not call for a wiz with this spell? Duh.

If you can't save up for one, then you're not LEARNING how to play the game. You're simply learning to survive - barely. You can save up for anything you want, whether it be fastest mounts, best gear, best builds, or best PETs. Again... it's about advancing in the game.

L2P.

Mosz - Heavens Tear

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Besides, it has already been proven, even by Antigone, that hercs CANNOT tank EVERY boss. I have also witnessed it. A herc getting 3 shotted by a boss in TT. So they may be good for some, but why don't we just say it depends on the play styles, eh?

did we say every boss? no but a LOT of them, what other pet tanks a good number of WORLD BOSSES, the veno army /anti's friends lets see...have many perfect shards in thier armor they were able to farm on thier own, no herc cant tank everything but can tank 10x more then other pets how about that, you use anti as an example thats hilarious as he is the prime example of pushing to the limit of overuse of the hercs and pheonixs to make venos uber strong and destroy other classes, shall we get into an arguement of the sacrafice pheonixs or the bless hercs, they are unbelievably strong

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The only difference between a veno with a herc and one without a herc is one has a herc and the other doesn't. Getting a herc didn't make them any better or smarter than they were before.

no doesnt make them smarter but would you rather be in a squad with a barb with 10k hp or 20k hp? a cleric with no channeling or a cleric with 30%, an archer with lvl 1 sharptooth and a +1 bow or one with lvl 10 sharptooth and a +5-10 weapon... yah thats the difference, doesnt mean they are necessarily smarter but er..built better for the job granted they know how to play thier class which both herc and non herc users can be capable of, while OFTEN the fact they have a herc leads MANY to believe (correctly or incorrectly) to the idea that they learned to play thier class so well that they earned the coins so buy a herc, which in some/many cases is more correct then not

@Cambriella hittin nail on head

Alphae - Lost City

BratFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well miss fancy pants not all of us have millions of coins at high levels, we get those things called weapons and gears with our in game.

Herc IS gear. Best I can get in fact. And a weapon. Talk about multitasking.

b:bye

_River - Heavens Tear

Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

did we say every boss? no but a LOT of them, what other pet tanks a good number of WORLD BOSSES, the veno army /anti's friends lets see...have many perfect shards in thier armor they were able to farm on thier own, no herc cant tank everything but can tank 10x more then other pets how about that, you use anti as an example thats hilarious as he is the prime example of pushing to the limit of overuse of the hercs and pheonixs to make venos uber strong and destroy other classes, shall we get into an arguement of the sacrafice pheonixs or the bless hercs, they are unbelievably strong

Who cares about perfect shards in their armor? Are you gonna tell me that Suntear has a veno on the side with a herc and that's how he got his perfect shards? Are you gonna tell me that, since Antigone has been in almost all of the highest level guilds he hasn't received ANY tw pay and that it hasn't helped him GET those perfect shards?

Think harder ****.

My argument is that we, who DONT have hercs, shouldn't be discriminated against because of that. We work our asses off to get where we are. I don't care if I can't tank as many things as a herc veno. That's not why I play the game. I play the game to HAVE FUN, not RULE THE GAME. If I wanted to rule the game, I would do everything Antigone has done and then some. But no, I enjoy playing with my playstyle.

If I'm not rich, I don't care, I'm happy where I am. I've made it all the way to almost 88 without a herc. If I have gotten this far, why would I need a herc to get further? I don't want to be all powerful in this game, I just want to have fun with what I do. If I can't do something with a group because of no herc, that's messed up. I'm just as capable as a herc veno.

_River - Heavens Tear

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

Herc IS gear. Best I can get in fact. And a weapon. Talk about multitasking.

b:bye

Herc is a pet. NOT needed. WANTED. Gear is needed. Gear = weapons, armor, ornaments. kthxbai

Belial - Heavens Tear

Herc = best armour .

Actually, someone nailed this earlier; the only difference between a Veno and a Herc Veno is that one has a Hercules and the other doesn't...and the one who has a Hercules can do a bit more tanking than the one who doesn't.

Alphae - Lost City

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Herc is a pet. NOT needed. WANTED. Gear is needed. Gear = weapons, armor, ornaments. kthxbai

Lol.

One a veno's main gears is her pet. Until the widespread use of tomes it was pretty much a given that you were spending more overall on your pets than your gears in total, at least under 7x (but a veno in reality can get away with pretty crappy gears until 9x for PvE, minus weapon).... Not all venos use a pet to tank but the vast majority of them do, and those that don't use it as DPS, therefore it's a piece of gear...

An axe BM doesn't NEED GX. A cleric doesn't NEED channelling wrists and rings (and more pieces if they can get them). A wizard doesn't NEED an MP charm (not "gear" by your standards).

But are those things part of a good BM, part of a good cleric, part of a good wizard? They sure as hell are.

Do you NEED to refine your TT90 armor? Nope.

Do you NEED to wear anything other than NPC gear? Nope.

Do you NEED to wear ornaments? Nope.

See where I'm going with this?

Tigriss - Heavens Tear

Damn we are still fighting about this???

Solandri - Heavens Tear

BratFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As so many people have been quick to point out, it takes much less talent to use a herc. Therefore, you can assume by that, that a person who tanks WITHOUT a herc has to work harder at being as good as a person with a herc. That seems to be what everyone OWNING a herc keeps trying to point out. But it doesn't sound so good coming from the other direction eh?

If you have a herc, you can be more lazy in how you play the game.

But to get a herc, you have to work harder and smarter to save up the coin.

I figure the two cancel each other out, and there's nothing appreciably different about people who have or don't have a herc. I've seen skilled players with a herc, and skilled players without a herc. I've seen clueless players with a herc, and clueless players without a herc. If you're wanting to collect loot and exp, then I can see why you'd prefer someone with a herc. But if you're just wanting to have a fun time with other people in a game, then I don't see how it really matters.

This whole topic reminds me of an old Star Trek episode. People latch onto any inconsequential differences just for the sake of arguing with each other. b:chuckle

_River - Heavens Tear

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

Lol.

One a veno's main gears is her pet. Until the widespread use of tomes it was pretty much a given that you were spending more overall on your pets than your gears in total, at least under 7x (but a veno in reality can get away with pretty crappy gears until 9x for PvE, minus weapon).... Not all venos use a pet to tank but the vast majority of them do, and those that don't use it as DPS, therefore it's a piece of gear...

An axe BM doesn't NEED GX. A cleric doesn't NEED channelling wrists and rings (and more pieces if they can get them). A wizard doesn't NEED an MP charm (not "gear" by your standards).

But are those things part of a good BM, part of a good cleric, part of a good wizard? They sure as hell are.

Do you NEED to refine your TT90 armor? Nope.

Do you NEED to wear anything other than NPC gear? Nope.

Do you NEED to wear ornaments? Nope.

See where I'm going with this?

And by your standards venos don't need hercs ^^

Hercs are PETS. You don't have to have them to be a good veno. You don't have to have them PERIOD. They are a pet that people WANT.

Gear is gear. If you want to refine it, its still gear. It makes it better so that you can do MORE with it. Stop nitpicking my words.

You want to go running naked with no good gear? That's fine by me. But I choose my GOOD gear over a herc anyday. Hercs are a luxary item, NOT needed. People need to differentiate between NEED and WANT.

Ornaments allow you to heal better, take more damage etc.

Weapons allow you to heal better deal more damage.

MP Charms aren't necessary, I've seen clerics and wizards do just as well without them.

GX isn't needed, people just want them cause they think they need it.

People wear better gears for the adds to help heals, attacks, resists, etc. If you're gonna split hairs I can go further if you'd like?

tweakz

Too many people try to console themselves by downplaying the Herc. I rarely use mine for grinding, but do use it for what other pets couldn't do. It allows me more freedom, independence, and safety. I could care less if it's ugly. Half the time I'm using it, I'm just holding down the heal button and looking at stuff on my other computer. If I wanted something to just look at, I'd get a fish tank. Just because you have a Herc doesn't mean you have to parade it around everywhere you go.

Instead of consoling, just make an effort to earn one. I could have filled my pet bag with them by now without spending cash.

Cambriella - Sanctuary

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

....

My argument is that we, who DONT have hercs, shouldn't be discriminated against because of that. We work our asses off to get where we are. I don't care if I can't tank as many things as a herc veno. That's not why I play the game. I play the game to HAVE FUN, not RULE THE GAME. If I wanted to rule the game, I would do everything Antigone has done and then some. But no, I enjoy playing with my playstyle.

If I'm not rich, I don't care, I'm happy where I am. I've made it all the way to almost 88 without a herc. If I have gotten this far, why would I need a herc to get further? I don't want to be all powerful in this game, I just want to have fun with what I do. If I can't do something with a group because of no herc, that's messed up. I'm just as capable as a herc veno.

And when someone wants a certain lvl for a party, the lower levels should whine about it, too, right? Because they can't perform as well as a person of the suggested level.

A RB group asking for players with experience and charms, shouldn't be? Because it's a persons playstyle if they want to party w/o a charm... because they can't afford it or don't want to spend the money on it.

A faction wanting their members to have certain elixirs or gemmed gears, etc because they want to win TW, shouldn't right? They're discriminating against the people who don't want to fight to the best of their ability. Don't want to save up to get things that make them more effective at killing/healing/tanking/etc.

Right.

QQ more. People can and SHOULD be picky about who they want in their parties, because it's their time, their party. If you want to put together a group with a hercless veno with a little tabby cat (cuz it's a cute), white gear w/o sockets, tanks w/o charms, etc. Go for it. If you make it through, give yourself a pat on the back. But quit whining about people wanting the best and most efficient parties.

Eternalnub - Heavens Tear

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Herc is a pet. NOT needed. WANTED. Gear is needed. Gear = weapons, armor, ornaments. kthxbai

and with herc you get your gear alot of faster ^^
i have TT90 set in storage 1.5lvl's to go till i can use those and atm i dont even play

Belial - Heavens Tear

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

(...)
You want to go running naked with no good gear? That's fine by me. But I choose my GOOD gear over a herc anyday. Hercs are a luxary item, NOT needed. People need to differentiate between NEED and WANT.
(...)
People wear better gears for the adds to help heals, attacks, resists, etc. If you're gonna split hairs I can go further if you'd like?

Yes - people wear gears in order to increase survival chances. Some venomancers chose to pick certain pets (i.e. Herc) in order to increase survival chances. A Herc is as much of a 'luxary' item as refined gear with good stats is.

Neither of these items, nor the lack of them makes a person a better player by default though.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

People latch onto any inconsequential differences just for the sake of arguing with each other. b:chuckle

Isn't that just the truth!

_River - Heavens Tear

Cambriella - Sanctuary wrote: »

And when someone wants a certain lvl for a party, the lower levels should whine about it, too, right? Because they can't perform as well as a person of the suggested level.

A RB group asking for players with experience and charms, shouldn't be? Because it's a persons playstyle if they want to party w/o a charm... because they can't afford it or don't want to spend the money on it.

A faction wanting their members to have certain elixirs or gemmed gears, etc because they want to win TW, shouldn't right? They're discriminating against the people who don't want to fight to the best of their ability. Don't want to save up to get things that make them more effective at killing/healing/tanking/etc.

Right.

QQ more. People can and SHOULD be picky about who they want in their parties, because it's their time, their party. If you want to put together a group with a hercless veno with a little tabby cat (cuz it's a cute), white gear w/o sockets, tanks w/o charms, etc. Go for it. If you make it through, give yourself a pat on the back. But quit whining about people wanting the best and most efficient parties.

Half of your points are invalid. You should consider what you say before you say it. TW factions don't have requirements about your gear. If they do, then that's their choice, I wouldn't go for it. All of the tw factions I've ever been in NEVER said what I had to have. They made suggestions, but let me get the gear I wanted. They just wanted me to do my best.

I'm not QQing, I'm simply stating that its unfair that I'm discriminated against because I choose not to have a herc.

tweakz is right on a lot. and so is Eternalnub.

Yes the herc is great, I'm not downgrading/downplaying it. I have seen great things done with a herc, but if I don't want one, why should it matter to anyone?

And Cambriella, read the thread before you attack me. My reply about npc gears was to someone else. I, myself, have a mix between molders and TT gear. I admit I don't farm TT like most venos, but if I want something bad enough I don't mind buying it. I don't want a herc cause I'm fine with my current tank pets.

The point is, why can't others be happy with us hercless venos? Its not about how good one is. Yes we all know hercs are amazing. But if I can do a lot of the same, why do people over look me?

And I have already made an argument about level differences in doing things. I was doing Tt3-1s in Evolution waaaaay before I hit level 80 btw.

_River - Heavens Tear

Belial - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes - people wear gears in order to increase survival chances. Some venomancers chose to pick certain pets (i.e. Herc) in order to increase survival chances. A Herc is as much of a 'luxary' item as refined gear with good stats is.

Neither of these items, nor the lack of them makes a person a better player by default though.

I agree.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

Lol.

One a veno's main gears is her pet. Until the widespread use of tomes it was pretty much a given that you were spending more overall on your pets than your gears in total, at least under 7x (but a veno in reality can get away with pretty crappy gears until 9x for PvE, minus weapon).... Not all venos use a pet to tank but the vast majority of them do, and those that don't use it as DPS, therefore it's a piece of gear...

An axe BM doesn't NEED GX. A cleric doesn't NEED channelling wrists and rings (and more pieces if they can get them). A wizard doesn't NEED an MP charm (not "gear" by your standards).

But are those things part of a good BM, part of a good cleric, part of a good wizard? They sure as hell are.

Do you NEED to refine your TT90 armor? Nope.

Do you NEED to wear anything other than NPC gear? Nope.

Do you NEED to wear ornaments? Nope.

See where I'm going with this?

Jump from a window.

The only part you peeps got right is that Herc can tank more. But thnx, for that job ill pick a good barbarian over a veno every day. Full parties are much more fun.

For me good veno is not a veno who spent 2 months collecting coins to buy few buffed up pixels, a good veno has its use Debuff/spark/lure and tbh you dont need a herc for that.

And no i am not a herc hatter i just dislike ppl who only think of a veno as a Herc user.

Anders - Lost City

God I Hate Venos
**** Venos
**** Them
I Am Batman

Alphae - Lost City

Belial - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Neither of these items, nor the lack of them makes a person a better player by default though.

Neither does it make them worse. What irks me most is the people that don't have a herc that say, HERC USR R DUM, DEY NOT NED NOO SKILZ 2 PLEY!!

Herc doesn't give you skills, but owning one doesn't make you a moron. (This not directed at you Belial, just using your quote b:surrender)

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Jump from a window.

Wheeeeeee!

There a need for that?

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The only part you peeps got right is that Herc can tank more. But thnx, for that job ill pick a good barbarian over a veno every day. Full parties are much more fun.

Yes the herc can tank more. That doesn't lead me to under-appreciate barbs, for instance. That leads me to, take a bite of this, SOLO more. So your squad has nothing to do with it.

In a squad with a good barb, do I want to tank. HELL no.

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

For me good veno is not a veno who spent 2 months collecting coins to buy few buffed up pixels, a good veno has its use Debuff/spark/lure and tbh you dont need a herc for that.

What about venos who do both? Because, FYI, you can.

Anders - Lost City

Anders - Lost City wrote: »

God I Hate Venos
**** Venos
**** Them
I Am Batman

GOD I HATE VENOS
**** VENOS
**** THEM
I AM BATMAN b:angryb:angry

_River - Heavens Tear

Anders - Lost City wrote: »

GOD I HATE VENOS
**** VENOS
**** THEM
I AM BATMAN b:angryb:angry

*Gives you a cookie*

Anders - Lost City

_river - Heavens Tear wrote: »

*gives You A Cookie*

Get Away From Me, Fleabag

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear

So, _River, let me get this straight. You want people to respect your choice to not get a Herc. Yet you're not willing to respect other people's right to choose who they want in their squad.

It's not discrimination. If someone gets turned down for a job because they aren't qualified enough, is that discrimination? It's the same with squads. They have the right to choose whether or not they want you in their squad. And if you get rejected cause you don't have Herc. Too bad. Tons of people don't get hired cause they don't have a college degree. Do you hear them complaining? They either get the degree or accept the fact that their options are limited and move on.

Take your example. TT3-1. What did you do on those runs? Lure, Amp, pass sparks, and DD, right? Nothing wrong with that. However, a Veno with a Herc can Tank every boss in TT3-1. It's a fact that a veno with a herc is capable of doing more than a herc-less veno. Note that I said capable. Whether or not the Veno has the ability to fulfill that capacity is solely based on the individual.

You want us to respect your right to not have a Herc. Fine with me. That's your choice. However, you have to respect other's right to choose whether or not they want you in their squad.

Cambriella - Sanctuary

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

.... TW factions don't have requirements about your gear. If they do, then that's their choice, I wouldn't go for it. ...

Uh, there's your answer. Same with parties. If they have requirements for having a herc and consider the rest unwanted (useless in your words), than that's their choice. Don't go for it.