Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?

1…5681011…27

Comments

  • Mosz - Heavens Tear
    Mosz - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    ViennaMcFly - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    When i read your post i can only write > you are probably exactly one of those 12 years old kids or some freak with only video game life <. Some people got also other things to do in life as to grid whole the day coins in a video game. I'm sure you can grid 500m @ day and you can probably even make 10 lvl's at day, but im happy that i can't do it, because i have more important things to do.

    21 years old in last year of #5 ranked public college in America finishing a comp sci degree which can easily drain 40 hours a week worth of programming let alone other assignments, i also cook most my meals, and have friends, so buzz off and choke on your own highly incorrect words
    500mil a day, do teach me
    your more important things obviously don't seem more important then arguing with false information on this forum b:bye

    and thanks to Tearvalerin in this thread for digging up the stats and all.
  • Teseanna - Heavens Tear
    Teseanna - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,021 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    dont make things up they dont add to your argument. you -need- a herc to kill those mobs during bean collecting, ive seen them kill wizards in LA who have 2x the pdef of my old golem.

    it saves time and money in TT by minimizing repair costs, and makes mob luring and killing faster whether its tanking, or pulling a mob for the barb while holding its own.

    5$ says i can outplay any veno without a herc, and for the most part i have yet to be proven wrong :P

    FYI: you dont need MONEY to buy one, i got my legendary pets for ~40m and ive been playing maybe 3 1/2 months max

    venos without herc can do rebirth
    My golem does fine
    [SIGPIC]http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/jjeshop/artemis.png[/SIGPIC]



    ...i'm so pretty!
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    21 years old in last year of #5 ranked public college in America finishing a comp sci degree which can easily drain 40 hours a week worth of programming let alone other assignments, i also cook most my meals, and have friends, so buzz off and choke on your own highly incorrect words
    500mil a day, do teach me
    your more important things obviously don't seem more important then arguing with false information on this forum b:bye

    and thanks to Tearvalerin in this thread for digging up the stats and all.
    she just dunno what shes talkin about, ignore em, and they go away man
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    youve only had it a day and a half, and mr "my average play time is 3 hrs a day" isnt long enough to get it to a level where it can even compare. go get it to 80+ then you can tell us how much better it is.

    Actually it's 76. And yeah, I've been able to see the difference in grinding since getting it.

    We all know the b pets realy start to excel at 8x. But I've been noticing a nice stat boost per lvl since 7x. So stfu please. b:bye
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    you really know how to make things up dont ya?
    1-76 in like 2 days without cube is bull ****. especially without long you say you play.
    can you keep a story straight just once, just so i dont have to think you are a total tard for once?
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    you really know how to make things up dont ya?
    1-76 in like 2 days without cube is bull ****. especially without long you say you play.
    can you keep a story straight just once, just so i dont have to think you are a total tard for once?

    Lol you're right it's not 76. It's 75. For some reason I thought I had hit 76 before I logged off. But here's a screen... =D

    http://i43.tinypic.com/fkskr7.jpg
    Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You guys both are somewhat right here about TT and tanking. While, no, a Golem isn't going to solo TT for several, several levels, there is an opportunity here. The golem survived for 12 seconds. That actually surpasses my usual benchmark test for determining tankability of a boss. I usually use something I call a "Three Hit" test. If using only my heals alone, a pet can survive 3 hits or more, then with at least 2 more Venos, a pet can usually tank said boss. As such, drag your Veno friends in with you, make it about 4 of you, and you could probably do it. Just make sure you have Clerics for the increased Magic Attack, and probably BB or RB to assist for the AoE's or DD.

    It's one thing you guys are not understanding. The TT bosses have a high damage range. For example, sometimes dementora will hit for 300-600 damage. Then he will get 3 or so 1000-1500 hits. That happens very often. Someone said a crit was what killed their golem when he/she was tanking it. No, that's his normal damage range. :p
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    you talk so much about bots, and make so much junk up, and brag so much i may think you are a botter yourself.

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2720991&postcount=12
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2695102&postcount=92
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2705912&postcount=38

    so make up your mind. do you play 3 hours a day, or 5-8 like in one, or no life level to make what solandri makes cat shopping?

    you ask me how I level + get a herc + phoenix?
    1. herc = ult sub farming with a 2 man effort, one covered broken plains other covered the dreamweaver area. i got it whan i was 67.
    2.phoenix+ leveling, learn wtf rebirth gamma is, go get a party together, and do it and youll see how fast the money stacks up.

    now explain for the lovely crowd how from the time of this post:
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=290922
    to now, 2 days, you magically get birdie from 1-75 without the cube, within your claimed play time, and still have time to normally level and amass wealth. please be my guest, mr 'so many botters on harshlands,' i think -you- are a botter.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Dude if I have a nix I'm going to LEVEL it. It's just another process of the battle pet like farming for it. But normally, I still don't play as long as I have within the past two weeks.

    You say you grinding both your pets + earned that 51m in your inventory. For some reason I'm starting not to believe that. ;o
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    2.phoenix+ leveling, learn wtf rebirth gamma is, go get a party together, and do it and youll see how fast the money stacks up
    1. herc = ult sub farming with a 2 man effort, one covered broken plains other covered the dreamweaver area. i got it whan i was 67.

    i dont quite think you answered my question.
    and you dont quite know how to read either.
    RB gamma = 1.6m exp + immac gems + ~800k-1m if coins drop + tome frags which were at one point 4-500k a piece. takes 2-3hrs for easy money and exp.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Literature - Harshlands wrote: »
    Dude if I have a nix I'm going to LEVEL it. It's just another process of the battle pet like farming for it. But normally, I still don't play as long as I have within the past two weeks.

    Lol I think that answered your question pretty well. I wanted my bird leveled.

    Here's where I leveled at.

    1-30 : Antelope pup
    30-40 : Felbone Shanks
    40-60 : Foxwings over City of the Lost
    60 - 70: Swamp of the wraiths Altar
    70 - 72 : Carrior vultures
    72 - Current : Bunnies

    Now as a pure mag build with roughly 4200-4800 m atk I kill anything below me pretty fast. ;o
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    lol. sure if you say so bot man! where doesnt mean anything if you cant keep a story straight :D
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    lol. sure if you say so bot man! where doesnt mean anything if you cant keep a story straight :D

    Dude exactly what story am I not keeping straight? You can go to the harshlands forum right now. Ask anyone if they have ever seen me dead on the ground for hours on end, unresponsive to chat/pk, grinding without a pet etc.

    I was 1-shotting every mob till 40. Everything upto and including the bunnies was two shot. 7-8 hours of that and what do you have? Fast levels.

    The **** do you not understand? Or are you just trolling?
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    dead on the ground for hours on end, unresponsive to chat/pk, grinding without a pet etc.
    you must see pretty low quality botting programs, theyre fully capable of controlling your pet, and letting you talk to people in game (and even evade chat filters), and respawning if **** goes wrong.

    those kinda dont prove anything :O
  • Palu - Harshlands
    Palu - Harshlands Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    I feel so underapriciated... i think i spelled that wrong...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    If at first you dont succeed, redefine success.
  • ViennaMcFly - Dreamweaver
    ViennaMcFly - Dreamweaver Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    she just dunno what shes talkin about, ignore em, and they go away man

    Huh i quess it's more as healty to ignore such freaks as you, because such people expecting from every veno to have an hercules. And you simply don't understand that not everyone is willing to pay so much real money for it, or to grid ( for me half year ) for it. And don't write, how easy is to get Hercules......becuase i belive you that it's easy for people as you. For ordinary players are 20m + a lot of coins and even if they ever get them, not all are willing to buy this pet, because they even don't need it. But on my luck i never meet such persons on Dreamweaver server, but if i will ever meet someone who gonna blame me because i don't have 150Euro + cash shop pet, i gonna give him to blacklist and stay faaaar away from such freak.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    im going to pretend i understand what you just said. i got a friend to help me farm for herc, and we did it in 2 weeks. it is not impossible to buy a herc with coins
  • Vizula - Sanctuary
    Vizula - Sanctuary Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    When I first started the game, I had two goals in mind, get the herc and nix. Why? Because I wanted to be able to help people. You know what's even funnier? I still use my other pets that I caught from in game just as much as the herc. I've even had requests for me to use my other pets and not herc to help with boss battles and with fbs.

    So, do I think a veno with a herc is useless, no. Those with hercs do have an advantage. But a golem that is at the lvl of the player is a pretty good asset too.

    I'm not at the lvl to do Slitt yet, but was around there for a quest, and happened to see a veno and I believe an archer and cleric going after Slitt, to my surpirse, the veno didn't summon a herc...she summoned a golem...and in less than five mintues...Slitt was dead..with no help from the archer and cleric, except for heals from cleric.

    When I needed Chi'in for the quest from Feng, at the lvl 40 range. I was told flat out, my pets would be one hit. At the time, I belonged to a faction that I was the only active player, and just about everyone on my friend's list was either gone or in FB,TT, or something so they could not help. I was in the area getting some other quests out of the way when I saw on regular chat people asking if someone needed Chi'in. I responded and said I did, but I'd not be much help, since my pets would be one-shotted.

    They said that was fine, I did not realize until I was in squad that the leader was a lvl 7x veno. And the other member in squad was a lvl 4x cleric.

    I thought we were doomed...I'd heard so many horror stories about Chi'in. But the lvl 7x veno tanked him..no with a herc...but with a volcanic magmite.

    So, in response to those that say a veno is useless without herc or nix...yea, bite me.
    If you want to be somebody, and you want to go somewhere, you better wake up and Pay Attention.

    b:victoryb:cool
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    im going to pretend i understand what you just said. i got a friend to help me farm for herc, and we did it in 2 weeks. it is not impossible to buy a herc with coins

    I got a herc in a month and a phoenix in 1 week. It's very possible with just coins, you just really have to work at it.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I got a herc in a month and a phoenix in 1 week. It's very possible with just coins, you just really have to work at it.
    exactly, point proven
  • Sylvini - Heavens Tear
    Sylvini - Heavens Tear Posts: 259 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    the hugest flaw in your argument:

    do you even know what the hell hercs skills do?
    you cant compare the herc stats:
    4135 2672 8952 7161 2297 1225 0.8 8.1
    to a golems:
    2934 3240 8792 5861 1354 1003 0.6 6.2

    simply because, hercs skills.
    #1 Protect, Increases Pdef + 150% thats (8952+13428) = 22380 pdef. no barb or Bm can get that, even fully buffed.
    #2 (whatever the magic skill is called) increases magic def + 150%
    (7161+10742) =17903 mdef
    #3 reflect which reflects 70% of melee dmg as if herc didnt have the pdef buff on whereas he can easily reflect 4k+ dmg on hits over 1200
    Yes, I know that, and it's very impressive, but that's a quantatative difference, not a qualitative difference. The Herc is a better, suped up version, but it does the same thing, just better and sooner.
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    quite frankly i dont see how golems pdef even can handle dimentora, if he still hits for 700-900 dmg on herc who has 20k+.
    Well, I don't know the exact math, but I'll bet it's because defense values increase in a logarithmic fashion, so that extra 13K pdef probably does less total than the original ~9K def. Meaning, if 9K gives a 50% dmg reduc (just a random number), another 13K may bring you up to 60% or 70%. Helpful, yes, even potentially game-changing on heavy hitters like TT bosses, but not as impressive as it seems from the PDef values.
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Now Im not going to dig up Solandri/OMGLAZERZ math in a way old thread, but they proved that a herc out damages a golem in a long fight after about 10 minutes, assuming hits and bash always connected, the increased attack speed takes more precedence over the golems spike damage.
    No arguement there.
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Now a higher level golem may be able to take on dimentora with 2 healers, A golem your level, and in the 70s cannot, and will not ever SOLO TT squad like you claim it can. Ive never seen a golem hold chin, let alone dimentora.
    ... I can tank Chin in 1-2 squad NOW. He doesn't hit all that harder than 1-1 Squad Chin.
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sure your magmite can get herc skills, but hes still in all ways inferior. why cant you just admit youre wrong? youve already proved you lack any experience so i dont know why you keep taking everything i say out of context, and then making **** up like youre a professional on the matter. you dont know anything about herc, you dont know anything about TT, leave this to the big boys.
    Ok, one, I never said Mag was better. Even with the skills I admitted it was worse, but also cheaper, and could potentially do the same things if leveled higher. That is my arguement, not whatever BS you seem to have made up for me.

    Two, I've pointed out issues that you seem to have missed, so your blind appeal to authority based on your "big boy" level experience fails miserably, especially when you fail to back it up with little more than an "I'm right, you're wrong" arguement style.
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    also... i see you said something about a critical hit from a monster in your earlier post. since when do monsters get 'critical hits' in PW. they would say if they did, not get a random huge number out of nowhere. i need proof and hard evidence that they exist or thats null also :P
    Umm, I've seen mobs getting hits substantially higher (+50% or more) than normal on my pets since I started the game. It's rare, sure, and it doesn't pop up big "I'm Critical" signs like it does when we crit, but I call it a crit anyway. I don't know if the calculations are the same or what, but it's there.

    Actually, looking at Lit's post, this may be it, but I've seen it on normal mobs, too, and it seems awefully rare to be within the normal damage range, unless the damage range is weighted toward the low end, which is possible I guess.
  • FoxRunning - Heavens Tear
    FoxRunning - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    easy for you to say this....the real question is what level were you when you got them, and where were you grinding, to get drops that sold for enough to buy them? if you are talking about buying them at your level, duh-the drops in the high level areas are worth more than around City of the Lost, etc.

    it makes me mad when i hear this kind of tripe, people bragging about how short a period it took them to buy their pets. low levels simply *dont* have access to that kind of money making drops. guys, please be fair, and when talking about how short a time it took to get your pet, please let us know where you were grinding, what mobs you were working on, and what drops? it would really help everyone, ok?b:thanks

    treasure.gif
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I got a herc in a month and a phoenix in 1 week. It's very possible with just coins, you just really have to work at it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    (and hugs to Flauschkatze for the sig!)
    "Thanks for writing me-- it's always great to hear from a vet.

    -FrankieRaye"
    Playing here since '08b:heart
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    I was level 75 when I got my herc. I did a lot of grinding on monsters my level.

    I got my phoenix at 85, same thing, but I did some TT runs and got lucky with gold mats as well.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Yes, I know that, and it's very impressive, but that's a quantatative difference, not a qualitative difference.
    i think you have it backwards,the numbers prove herc is the better quality pet by a long shot. you just cant compare a magmite to it, ever. if the numbers and facts on paper dont prove it to you, theres no point in debating with you, because its like arguing with my mother. i list off my opinion, give plenty of reasons why, and shell be all, NO THATS WRONG BECAUSE I SAID SO.

    herc > golem. you havent done anything to give example to anything other wise, all youve done is aide my theory that herc transcends other pets.

    in some cases herc > barb too. herc withrare pet skills like yuor magmite argument earlier can tank melee world bosses as well as a barb can. he can easily tank better on 85% of TT bosses, golems cant.

    these are not 'opinion' as you label them, its fact, which you shrug off and label as garbage.

    go ahead, defend your golem to the death, but no matter how you look at it, youre still wrong.
    but it does the same thing, just better and sooner.
    no, it cant. go send your golem to tank something like cosmoforce, tell me how it turns out. im done trying to show you just how jaded your opinion really is.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Sylvini - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Actually, looking at Lit's post, this may be it, but I've seen it on normal mobs, too, and it seems awefully rare to be within the normal damage range, unless the damage range is weighted toward the low end, which is possible I guess.

    Sylvini you're funny dude...sitting here arguing with people who have the pets and do TT squad all the time. I mean, I farmed my nix in there. =/

    The damage range for those bosses is too high. It might seem like you can tank it with a golem because he's hitting the lower damage ranges. But when he hits the higher ranges, which is completely normal, you will probably be 1-2 shot. Even with two venos, you will not go for a full fight without him hitting multiple times in the higher ranges. You won't have a chance to heal. I have to spam heal on my lv 80 herc fighting dementora. I'm pure mag. So what chance would a golem ever have?
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Golems can survive quite a few things that might surprise you. They gave us the key with this latest expansion. I'm talking about the Genies' level 1 Earth tree skill that lowers Accuracy and Channeling Speed. It might not seem like that huge of a deal, but if you can keep it up, your chances of survival are greatly increased. After all, you don't have to heal damage from a MISS since there is no damage. And giving you just a fraction more time to max out your golem's HP before the spells hit will allow you to survive those, as well. I find that a combination of that and Spark Eruption allows me to do some things that I probably shouldn't actually be able to accomplish. I mean, I have nowhere near the magic capabilities of a caster Veno, and I can still tank quite a few bosses.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    well of course, a golem can handlemost quest bosses once its about 65+, at around your level it can handle quillhog too. gouf, khewy, ch'in (not to be confused with chintien), dismal whatever. thats not really surprising, in fact its plenty feasible.

    TT and a a select few quest bosses, and such are not.
  • Sylvini - Heavens Tear
    Sylvini - Heavens Tear Posts: 259 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i think you have it backwards,the numbers prove herc is the better quality pet by a long shot. you just cant compare a magmite to it, ever. if the numbers and facts on paper dont prove it to you, theres no point in debating with you, because its like arguing with my mother. i list off my opinion, give plenty of reasons why, and shell be all, NO THATS WRONG BECAUSE I SAID SO.
    I think its you that has things backwards. You can compare Herc and Mag, and you can do it quite easily. The comparison comes to:
    herc stats:
    4135 2672 8952 7161 2297 1225 0.8 8.1
    to a golems:
    2934 3240 8792 5861 1354 1003 0.6 6.2

    The difference is a matter of numbers, which is the definition of a quantatative difference.
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    herc > golem. you havent done anything to give example to anything other wise, all youve done is aide my theory that herc transcends other pets.

    in some cases herc > barb too. herc withrare pet skills like yuor magmite argument earlier can tank melee world bosses as well as a barb can. he can easily tank better on 85% of TT bosses, golems cant.
    I'm not sure where you got your twisted idea of what my arguement was, but I was NEVER trying to say that a Mag was better than a Herc, or even as good. In the most optimal conditions possible, a Mag can come close to a Herc in HP and PDef, but still not surpass it. I've blatantly admitted that several times. My point was that the Mag is not worthless as you seem to believe, but is the second-best after Herc, and can still do plenty of stuff on it's own.
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    these are not 'opinion' as you label them, its fact, which you shrug off and label as garbage.
    Again, you are confused. I never said any of your factual claims were opinions. That was you saying it about me.
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    well of course, a golem can handlemost quest bosses once its about 65+, at around your level it can handle quillhog too. gouf, khewy, ch'in (not to be confused with chintien), dismal whatever. thats not really surprising, in fact its plenty feasible.

    TT and a a select few quest bosses, and such are not.

    I know TT squad is way out of the question for soloing, but I've had pretty much no problem whatsoever doing the Solo Mode bosses with my Magmite. And because of all the Attack skills I gave him, I'm not there healing very long at all. Most bosses just get ripped through.
  • Alphae - Lost City
    Alphae - Lost City Posts: 1,512 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I know TT squad is way out of the question for soloing, but I've had pretty much no problem whatsoever doing the Solo Mode bosses with my Magmite. And because of all the Attack skills I gave him, I'm not there healing very long at all. Most bosses just get ripped through.

    I don't think anyone is disputing what you're saying. There are some people though that stubbornly refuse to acknowledge a hercules' capabilities, just as there are people who reject you out-of-hand who refuse to acknowledge a magmite's capabilities.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Alphae - Lost City wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is disputing what you're saying. There are some people though that stubbornly refuse to acknowledge a hercules' capabilities, just as there are people who reject you out-of-hand who refuse to acknowledge a magmite's capabilities.
    i know exactly what magmites are capable of, this is my point exactly, im just saying one transcends the other, and are not comparable in any way shape or form.
    Originally Posted by Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    well of course, a golem can handlemost quest bosses once its about 65+, at around your level it can handle quillhog too. gouf, khewy, ch'in (not to be confused with chintien), dismal whatever. thats not really surprising, in fact its plenty feasible.

    TT and a a select few quest bosses, and such are not.

    yes magmites are good pets, but sylvini refuses to account hercs skills in which it boost hercs stats near 3x as high as the golems. that by far is what makes it the better quality pet. those numbers make a huge difference.
This discussion has been closed.

Categories