Disable hypers in frost, yes, no or LV restricted?

The_owner - Lost City

Please keep hyper Exp in Frost Off. It will make people do more quests than spam frost all day.


Very positive change!!!!!!!!b:victory

Mraochan - Lost City

Didn't hypers, frost, and sins come out about the same time in 2009? What if they had asked us then if we wanted hypers and frost b:laugh

Eoria - Harshlands

Mraochan - Lost City wrote: »

Didn't hypers, frost, and sins come out about the same time in 2009? What if they had asked us then if we wanted hypers and frost b:laugh

Frost was turned into an exp instance before hypers/sins came. Hypers/sins just made it a more efficient one.

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary

If people are so concerned about incompetent fcc babies in their BHs/Factions, do you guys really think making people quest up will fix that?

I could quest on my cleric solo, alternate plume shot and great cyclone, and complete most quests without issue. Most bhs can be completed with minimal issue, or at the very most needing to use bb, purify, or an aoe heal periodically. Barbs learn to tank a little but even that will change drastically once they start experiencing aps.

BHs and questing don't teach you your class significantly, it may familiarize you with skills and such, but if you want people to be competent, you really think they're going to get there from killing random mobs on the world map?

If the issue is instead "I had to level the hard way, so should they" because you leveled in the days before FCC was a thing, or even before BH, congratulations, you're a veteran. I sympathize with you, I got my first toon to 70 before bh, spent 80-85 in gamma, and 90 before hypers. But now there aren't nearly as many people doing the low level stuff that used to make leveling effective and even at times fun. There aren't rebirth alpha/beta/gamma squads anymore, it's like a lost art. People aren't going to buy charms and sit in nightscream aoeing because it's not efficient anymore, charms cost too much.

I'm aware that people CAN still level to 100 now without FCC, but removing it as an option because a lot of us have already got to 100+ and don't really care for it anymore isn't really fair to new people (all 20 of them), especially if we want the game to survive. And for whoever will inevitably say "Well I've never used fcc", great, congrats. Choosing not to take advantage of something available to you doesn't give you the right to say now the rest of you can't use it either.

Edalus - Momaganon

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...


What I said - and what you apparently didn't read - was that we have to draw a line somewhere. That's the whole point of this thread and its poll... to draw that line on what should count as a legitimate leveling method or not. Your insistence on demonizing any and all restrictions suggested to me that you draw the line at "allow everything, including gooning and even more egregious forms of quasi-instant leveling which haven't even been proposed yet."...

This little piece of talk-talk was very funny, as it is nothing than just a plain rhetoric trick called "extension" by the philosopher Schopenhauer: all you do is overstretching the cited statement to make it seem absurd, moreover you equate "Hyper in FCC" with "gooning" without arguing for it but you only take it for granted.

I deem posts using such rhetoric tricks very suspicios.

If they just had introduced hyper as a way to make money for saving time otherwise used for leveling, you should not equate this easy-making with the abuse of the mechanic of this easy-making.
I just find no arguements in all of these text walls besides value judgements or pride or even jealousy. All of the problems around FCC babies would not be solved, because way back in the PW MS version I found enough "babies" around higher levels also, so that arguement is outright not valid.
But it is all good I do not expect more of the player base here.

Apostasy - Raging Tide

Everyone seems to think FC hyper-powerleveling being disabled is wanted for better players, or because of spite to the fact that they leveled the "hard way". The opposition of these people are just as clueless as those they oppose.

The main concern is populating the beginner city areas up through morai again. THIS is what the main issue is no matter how blind everyone is to it. Without THIS, the game has no chance of growing a new player base with any potential new players walking into a "so-called mmo" which is dead of all life (ie... other players). b:beatup b:beatup b:beatup

Mraochan - Lost City

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Frost was turned into an exp instance before hypers/sins came. Hypers/sins just made it a more efficient one.

Hmm interesting. I guess the first time I quit was before the frost change. Came back sometime after sins and hyper. TY

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary wrote: »

...isn't really fair to new people (all 20 of them)...

b:laugh

kaleya

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

do you really think that getting bored with something is in our blood? that if something that has been done a thousand times no matter how different it may be that its human nature to get bored of it? im going to put it to you straight, it doesnt matter how many times we do something whether it be 100 times, 1000 times or 10000 times if we have to do it we will have to do it regardless whether or not that we like it. everyone has the capability to adapt if they want to and are flexible in doing so. If someone like a lvl70s player got bored of doing something that they have been doing for hrs, then yes they'll get bored but its their choice if they want to push through that boredom and continue on or just move onto something else for a while. whether it be a day, 2days, 3 days or a week. we always come back to a task later on if we're up to doing it.

Yes.. If you get bored something in particular, i.e. quests, you'll eventually try to either stop doing it or avoid it, i.e. plvling in FF. It's not a fixed thing, PWI implemented certain features to help avoid the redundancy of questing. Things that are unavoidable, i.e. spiritual cultivation, yes we'll have to do. Humans have the tendency to do things the easy way and take shortcuts in order to accomplish a certain goal in an efficient and timely matter. Sure, you can always come back to it, but why if there's a faster way?

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If someone wants to use a piece of gear as a goal, then that is what will keep them going to reach that goal no matter how tiring or bored they get, if they are desperate to try and reach for it they will get there eventually but it shouldnt have to take a few hrs or maybe a day or two just to reach there without having to work toward that goal. everyone likes a challenge, but when it comes to the lazy and "flat out bored" players when they have reached their goal, tell me whats left once they reach their goal the fast way. all theyll be doing is begging and complaining bout how bored they are when it was their choice to become bored. a game that cant be enjoyed by lazy bum players is always going to be boring to them no matter what else you put in front of them. whether it be a new and improved gear set, or new challenges they will always find some way to squeak by it without much effort so if you think its human nature to be bored then you are dead wrong. a player who can use their imagination for the same thing by making it different each time, then it'll be more fun to them than the player who got to the top the quick, short and easy way.

That may be how you think, but not what others think. Who cares if it takes a few hours or a few weeks? Why are you so up in how other people like to play? Just because you don't agree to other people's playstyle, doesn't mean you have the right to take it away from them and impose your own. You say that someone who does FF to level is more bored in the game than those who do it the long way? I assure you, I find end-game more enjoyable than anything else. Then there are people who think it's more fun at low/mid-game, so they'll stick to the normal routine. So no, you can't say all plvlers will always be bored with the game.

Human nature applies to all the innate capacities of all human beings; people have the capability of either being bored with a repetitive routine or be satisfied with it. The person I was replying to was talking in specifics to those who use FF to level faster than questing. Thus, I was referring to the human tendencies of the "shortcutters." Like the 50th time, please read before you distort my claims.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

now whos the one who is making redundant arguments here. you claim that you dont like ppl use absolutes in their arguments when you are making a rather absolute in your arguments also. not all the time things are 100% right or wrong, there are will be times when both sides of a discussion, argument or controversy will both be right or both be wrong. not all the time its as easy as black and white on a chalkboard.

I know it's not 100% right or 100% wrong, I'm saying ABSOLUTES are implying it's 100% wrong or 100% right. And I said there are EXCEPTIONS to absolutes (aka can be contended). Read again carefully next time, strawman.

(Btw from your claims, it's not called a redundant argument, more of a contradicting argument).

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

let me answer that question, does doing quests making a player skilled? maybe yes and maybe no its all how each player learns the basics. you could use this point as an example for someone to get into powerlvling cause its their way of learning. but let me tell you something from my experience of being on here the last 3yrs+. ever since powerlvling was made by the pwi players, it has cause more squad wipes and fails than anyone could count. you say you didnt learn much from quests was it cause you didnt want to or you couldnt. if you didnt want to, then i pity you for not learning and seeing the better things of the game rather than inside a constant rerun of the same instance.

you also say you dont like doing the same thing over and over again, day to day, month to month then tell me why you keep on doing the same bosses, kill the same mobs in 1 instance when theres like thousands of mobs in the open world. anyone can learn in an instance besides making it the same one day in and day out. you talk bout how you see the attitudes of players helping themselves more than others, that is the result of ppl wanting power over sacrifice. would restricting hypers in FF eliminate the problem? no ofc not. but it would put it a stop or slow it down by alot.

I'm just saying you can't put ALL the blame on powerlevelers, because not all of them are the results of fail squads. Some are, some aren't. What can you learn from a quest versus an instance? Quests are just killing mobs, which takes like 2-3 hits to kill from one person. They're not anything fancy or difficult, so there's not really any fancy techniques to be learned. Instances may or may not require the use of a squad, but they definitely have huge packs of mobs in which you need to think/act carefully so you won't die. Same thing with bosses, you need to actually think and apply skills so you won't die by harsh aoes/debuffs/etc. There's not anything that intense in the open world, mob wise.

Killing bosses and mobs takes a few minutes. Leveling via FF is faster than questing. I'm going to choose the more faster and efficient route. Since there's no way to bypass killing bosses, I have to kill them, not that it's a problem to begin with. The reason why we kill the mobs is because you need to kill it in order to get to the boss you want. Of course, PWI implemented things such as wine and stealth to bypass the mobs, but not everyone is a sin, and not every instance needs to be wined. What's the goal of killing mobs in the open world? Quests with very little exp? For drops to farm coins? No thanks, there are better options.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

sounds like you like making money from other players laziness and stupidity. Plus one can learn more from the lower lvls than they can from running an instance 100 times.

Did I say HOW i got my gears? Did I say HOW i made money? Did you ASSUME that I make money via powerleveling others? YES. For the billionth time, read my previous comments of me asserting that I don't powerlevel others for money. As with your other claim, I addressed that several times before, it's all dependent on human preferences.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

alot of what you said here i agree with, but FF shouldnt be the stepping stone to end game. players can find alot of more exciting things in the low to mid lvls than they can at end game. plus why do players have to rush to the end when its just that "THE END." end game is not what makes the beginning, the end is the end no matter how you may justify it. whether it be the last page of a book or the last lvl of a game. once your done your done no ifs, ands or buts.

I'm not saying players can't enjoy mid-game, as I sure have and I definitely do miss the old times when we were all around the same level. This game has been a couple years old, and still a lot of it's older playerbase has remained intact. I'm pretty sure they enjoyed the content of low/mid-game very much for a very long time, but as PWI grew older, there's more to offer end-game. For me, there is more to the game end-wise. Sure, you can think of it as "the end," but to others there's a meaning to it.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If doing hundreds of repeditive quests is boring and dreadful, how will it feel once you reach end game and your back to being bored? since it seems like you have a narrow view on this whole thing, you should go take a look around and see what really goes on around you. there might be more things that need to be changed before we can get back to the older times true, but that does need to start by putting a cap lvl limit on FF and hypers. plus FF did kill alot of the lower lvl content even though it wasnt the only thing that did it and yes there are other contributing factors that id say that needs to be addressed. Have times changed? yes ofc but not for the better and ofc pwi has updated itself but it also has updated alot of the lower to mid lvl content too. if players would just go through those lvls they might get a surprising factor out of it.

End-game isn't quest-based, as there aren't many quests available. Once you reach end-game, you can begin farming end-game gear, etc. There's still a goal to reach. Once you get your gear, then there's the goal to getting the best refined/sharded gear. I'm making examples here, not saying everyone has these goals. There will always be a goal for someone to reach end-game, and if not they either stay around or leave for some reason. I said earlier (if you read) I'm not 100% against level restricting hypers, so I'm not narrow-minded. I just don't see how people can reason that after level restricting hypers, everything will go back to the way it was, because it won't. Will it get better? Maybe, but the damage is done and always be recurring. I'm just not sure if much can be done right now to fix it at this point.

Yes, they did update lower and mid game too (i.e. making quests shorter, and gain more exp), but the focus is more towards end-game because leveling is now made easier. You can't deny that end-game is PWI's focus.

I did go through the mid-game times, back in the old days and I also had a recent excursion a couple months ago making a new character on a different server. It was pretty fun, might I say, and incredibly easy! I got to level 73 in.. 1-2 weeks just doing quests. It's not anything difficult, and I definitely enjoyed reminiscing about the way it was before, but it was really hard to find a BH/FB squad. We (I made a new character with a friend) had to get help from high levels every time, which is pretty sad. In that aspect, I learned more via quests than I did with instances, so I do see your point. Do I think I would have learned more if the instances were done by an entire level range squad? Yes. Do I think by level restricting hypers there will be more of a playerbase doing lower level BH? Not so much. If it does, then by all means sign me up for level restricting, but I just don't see it happening. And I would hate to impede on others ability to do FF if the results from level restricting aren't any better.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is plenty need for ppl to squad together to get quests and things done. just because you can get to lvl 75 in just a few weeks doesnt mean that doing them alone will make players stay. what makes em stay is the capability for them to be able to make friends along that lengthy road. if they always have to end up doing the lengthy road alone, then no wonder its no fun. having to spend countless hrs on doing quests alone is not whats going to make em stay, what will is the chance to have them join with other players of the same average lvl so they can progress together. sounds like another classic selfish blunder.

I agree, this game means more to be because of the friends I made along the way. In fact, all of my closest friends are those I met waaay back in the days. I'm saying people got to know each other better and for a longer period of time back in the day because the trek to level was long and there wasn't any shortcuts. Now, since it's so easy to level via quests or via plvling, you might know someone for one day and won't see them anymore the next because they're already a way higher level. By "there is no need for this now," I'm saying that quests (not BH/FB) can be easily done by one person in the lower levels. It's not NECESSARY to squad, but a WANT for companions.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

we're not saying that players who do end up staying here the longest should get some sort of special treatment or "benefits". plus i agree that its a selfish thing if some veteran player thinks that they can get the hot seat just cause of how loyal or dedicated he/shes been over the years. i will say that by limiting the out of control use of FF will bring the community to a much more lively environment than having it a lonely and stuck up playerbase.

I mentioned how I felt about this somewhere up above

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just because you've hardly to rarely died in bh,ff or tt is not cause of the few mistakes, but it maybe cause you've been rather lucky with the squads that you make or join. Plus i do see a huge negative impact that FF and the hypers have caused to the game alone. it has caused more ppl to become power hungry, self preservation and also the increase of greed. So yes i can blame FF for alot to most of the fail squads that we get into. if you havent been in a fail squad before try looking for a random bh squad and see how long and how far you get with em. Fail squads only make the run take longer stead of having a squad work together to accomplish something far greater than each individual.

All my BH squads are random. I'm too much of a lazy person to make them on my own. I have to say, they go pretty well. Some take longer, some take faster. Not necessarily due to the amount of skill, but rather the gears. There will always be hiccups for each player, and I don't hold it against them because we all make mistakes. Now, if you've had a prolonged encounter with said person/people and they continue to make fail choices, then yes they are pretty unskilled. But the majority of people try and avoid squads with said person/people, so they really don't have a great grasp if they are fail or are really good but just had an off day.

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

so wait you were oonce one of those bad plver who made tons of mistakes did not have the skill to do ur job but now when ur fully geared and all ur feeling pro.

one question dont you think those mistakes you did in the past are one of those same mistakes ppl hate plver for.

more plver like you who have no clue what to do get party wipes and all in all that is why we are here.

sorry but if did not do 39-51-59 prior to frost then ofc you only soloed but that is not mistake of the game but ur own.

the only thing you dont learn from those is pulling otherwise those instances fb bh will do just the trick to teach the dinamic of the game.

remember we are here cos of plver like you who only when reach lv100 start to learn party dinamic.

Dude, your whole entire post is... shameful towards people on your position. Unless you have something knowledgeable to say instead of attacking/not reading/make assumptions, then will I have a thoughtful discussion with you. For now, everything you say is just nonsense ****.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If your not a powerlvler, then how come did you say that you were in another statement on another reply? i think your the one who is egotistical here cause you yourself has no proof whatsoever. just cause someone argues against my opinion doesnt mean that im always 100% right all the time, if i was then id know everything which i dont. sounds like you dont have much evidence either to back up your claims as well so all you been doing is nothing more than name calling me for something im saying that would make the game alive again. plus i didnt admit to being stupid, but rather the opposite. im not always walking into stupid if you would not be so butthurt yourself.

least we both agree with something, is that your also not worth my time anymore either and i can see why you got your feelings hurt just cause of the glitch that caused FF to be shut down with the powerlvling and now you cant seem to make a profit which you have been doing. get a life would ya, theres more ways to make profit than just running the FF instance for players who want to abuse frost.

I've responded to what you said before somewhere up above. I won't be repetitive.

I meant to say I don't powerlevel others for money, I powerlevel myself. I don't make a profit that way, it's too boring. And I'm not butthurt that hypers don't work. I don't do FF on a daily basis, let alone a weekly basis. I've recently been way too busy IRL to actually play the game. I'm just trying to see things from both side's perspective, and input my own thoughts.

Right now all we're doing insulting each other, which I really don't want to do. A thoughtful discussion with no name-calling or attacks is all I'm asking for as flaming each other doesn't contribute to any of our causes. From now on, anything negative I said about you is put aside and I hope you too will do the same.

CreamDrinker - Dreamweaver

SweetieBot thank you for solving the problem with the FC babies

SweetieBot - Lothranis

CreamDrinker - Dreamweaver wrote: »

SweetieBot thank you for solving the problem with the FC babies

But I'm not gonna leave.

CreamDrinker - Dreamweaver

SweetieBot - Lothranis wrote: »

But I'm not gonna leave.

SweetieBot I would never want you leave b:cute

SweetieBot - Lothranis

CreamDrinker - Dreamweaver wrote: »

SweetieBot I would never want you leave

Neither would I.

Edalus - Momaganon

Apostasy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Everyone seems to think FC hyper-powerleveling being disabled is wanted for better players, or because of spite to the fact that they leveled the "hard way". The opposition of these people are just as clueless as those they oppose.

The main concern is populating the beginner city areas up through morai again. THIS is what the main issue is no matter how blind everyone is to it. Without THIS, the game has no chance of growing a new player base with any potential new players walking into a "so-called mmo" which is dead of all life (ie... other players). b:beatup b:beatup b:beatup

That would require a way for some peeps like me to make questing more efficient and worthwhile, so I saw hypers as the easy way of dealing with that issue. I know there are people out there who readily use up their full day playing here -- but that required time redundancy to make any notable progress was the main reason for me to stop the nonsense back in the old version of PW; we need not to disable hyper we would need an overhaul of the game including its game principle: pure grinder? pure quester? mix of both? what else?.

Mraochan - Lost City

I think there are a few statements we can all agree on:

Asian mmo's are grind-fests.

Power-hungry types will seek power.

Lazy people or people that are bored will quit the game or look for other ways to level.

People playing the game only to pass time will not care about gear or level.

I could expand this into cash shop usage but I won't.



Personally, I can't blame new players for seeing what's available and utilizing it. I also can't blame older players for saying it's easier to level now, with or without frost.

Eoria - Harshlands

Apostasy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Everyone seems to think FC hyper-powerleveling being disabled is wanted for better players, or because of spite to the fact that they leveled the "hard way". The opposition of these people are just as clueless as those they oppose.

The main concern is populating the beginner city areas up through morai again. THIS is what the main issue is no matter how blind everyone is to it. Without THIS, the game has no chance of growing a new player base with any potential new players walking into a "so-called mmo" which is dead of all life (ie... other players). b:beatup b:beatup b:beatup

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

You would have to take every single leveling/farming instance out of the game to achieve that. No FC, no TT, no Nirvana (okay, it's dead, but it still counted before NW), no CoA, no PV. I'm sure you don't want all of those instances disabled.

I already answered you on a previous page.

ViPeRSin - Harshlands

Levantica - Raging Tide wrote: »

How about remove the T3 weapons from Warsong because I already have full T3 and i dont need. Is same thing as lvl 100+ players vote for FC.....If they dont need anymore they sure vote for yes. I vote to remove T3 weapons and i vote to in Warsong stop people from making mobless run and bosses be imun to dmg if they dont kill all pavilion. How about that, fair enough? Just because you people dont need FC anymore after lvling 40 characters, dont mean that other dont need either.
I vote for NO WAY or LVL 85+ the best choice.

or we could just removed bound from warsong molds since the drop rate sucks

GlenRoss - Archosaur

kaleya wrote: »

Eh... I dislike when people use absolutes in their argument. It's either 100% right or 100% wrong, and that definitely can be contended.

Holy cow! Every rebuttal you offered in this post is dependent upon misinterpreting or mischaracterizing my point. Very frustrating.

kaleya wrote: »

Questing means you become a skilled player? No.

I've gone way out of my way to continually disclaim absolutes. I won't waste time repeating those many posts.

kaleya wrote: »

Questing means you become a skilled player? No.

See above.

It is intuitively obvious, however, that players who practice receive a benefit that those who don't, don't. We both know that was the intent of my position. Why don't we skip the contortions?

kaleya wrote: »

Pleveling brings rise to unskilled players? No.

This is getting old.

It's also a poor argument to argue against the absolute of an argument (an absolute that you inserted into the argument, then attempted to assign to me) then use that rebuttal to pretend that my actual statement has no merit at all.

kaleya wrote: »

I, for one, can speak from experience. My first character was around a month after PW opened, so I've been here a long time. I had 2 mains - both of which I quested all the way through around 80-90. Did I learn from quests? Not much. I learned which skills worked the best, but that can be done by anyone who can read.

* shaking my head *

kaleya wrote: »

What I learned most from was by participating in "varied battle scenarios," AKA instances, particularly starting from BH79. Farming mobs aren't anything special, but a ton of mobs packed close together with a boss that debuffs like crazy - I definitely had to learn and adjust. Not only did I have myself to protect, but everyone else. I just don't think the same caliber of skill is taught at lower level quests. Eventually, I got into FF and learned a whole lotta heck more! I was definitely behind in the FF bandwagon, and had absolutely no clue what I was doing. Luckily, a few training FF squads came about, and that's where I actually learned how to work with a squad in an instance similar to those end-game. (This brings up an issue about the difference between the old time community and today's. The attitudes i mostly see now are people just trying to help themselves and not others. Thus, you can't blame one entirely for not knowing their class because there hasn't been anyone to help them. Do I think restricting FF hypers will resolve the problem? No, PWI has brought about these attitudes, and there will be a lot more needed than removing/restricting hypers in FF to fix this.)

This is an interesting anecdote but I don't see the link from story to analysis to valid reason. I disagree with your conclusions.

kaleya wrote: »

Pleveling brings rise to unskilled players? No.

Eventually came time for a new character. I had a great grasp on the game, and for my playstyle I learned better from level 80+ than I did at lower levels. So, guess what? I plvled. I didn't want to spend time learning from an amateur when I could learn elsewhere. Did I lack some skills? Sure, at first. I knew what I did know and didn't know, and worked in order to fix those issues. For me, I'd feel terrible if I let my squad down because of my mistakes, so I try and learn from them every time. This toon is now my main, and pretty well-geared. And no, I don't cash shop. So plvling can make for well-skilled players.

I missed the part where you demonstrated the quality of your gameplay. In fact, you've simply demonstrated what I talked about in several posts: every power-leveler says they know their toon. Every one of them tell me how they are hard-workers and good learners and their substitute studies are just as good as having learned from practice. You may well be a good player. I've disclaimed the notion of identical results 100 times. I stand by my analysis that there are way more poor players among plevelers than among non-plevelers. I've yet to see anything more than a story of someone who considers themselves an exception.

kaleya wrote: »

My point is, you can't say every plvler does not recognize what they don't know. Some do, some don't.

But in reality, you've strengthened my point. Your anecdote says,

GlenRoss - Archosaur

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary wrote: »

If people are so concerned about incompetent fcc babies in their BHs/Factions, do you guys really think making people quest up will fix that?

I could quest on my cleric solo, alternate plume shot and great cyclone, and complete most quests without issue. Most bhs can be completed with minimal issue, or at the very most needing to use bb, purify, or an aoe heal periodically. Barbs learn to tank a little but even that will change drastically once they start experiencing aps.

Nobody is saying you can't still be incompetent, if you choose to not learn. But history has demonstrated that most people DO discover more about how to play by getting the practice of ...... playing.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear

Oh dear, lots of text walls between multiple parties since I last came b:surrender. I read some of them but don't have the time to read all. Basically I see it boiling down to three arguments.

Play style vs. Time to play
Experience vs. Non experience
and occasionally the metion of APS farming it for coins.

To play style vs. Time to play. This is perhaps one of the better arguments for leaving hypers in frost as it is indeed true that everyones schedule is different and the discrepencies that get created between those that have lots of time to play this game and those that don't are indeed a factor to consider when playing a game like this.

However, it is also true that many who have the time just don't want to use it to play Perfect World anymore and so just want a fast way to level their character to a high level so they can farm BH's and dailies. How do I know this? Because in order to hyper FC at a low level you have to pay someone to clear it for you. Given the gimp on coin income in recent months the only players who can afford to do this are those who already have high level alts and can afford the 500k - 2 mil private run coin fee. I understand this runs into the third argument but the point remains that arguing it enables new players to level quickly so they can "catch up" is misleading since actual NEW players wouldn't have the coin to run multiple frost hyper runs. This then gets into the argument of not wanting to grind/quest/daily and event ones way to lev 100, and as I stated before I understand that, but just because someone has one lev 100 char doesn't mean they have an intrinsic right to have three or four more right away. Earning abilities and boons is one of the things MMO's is about and taking the time to earn them along with others is what enriches the experience for everyone and teaches people their class. If you don't have the time to do it, or don't want to make the time to do it, then, quite frankly, you shouldn't be playing MMORPGs.

The experience vs. non experience argument is a bit more lop sided but deep down is what's at the core of the matter. It's obvious that FC creates frost babies. Denying it only demonstrates an abhorrent level of ignorance, or that the individual in question has alterior motives for doing so. The more important issue is whether forcing players to quest would teach them their class and in this case I would have to agree with the pro hyper team and say no.

Quests in PWI are absurdly simple, go here, kill this many mobs by spamming X attack, come back. It does provide practice and presents opportunity to try new skills and abilities but it does not FORCE someone to get better. In order for someone to get better playing their class there has to be constant introduction of squad dynamics. This used to be frequent back in the days of FBs TT's and early BH's, sadly not so much anymore. It was back then as it is at times now that if you didn't know what you were doing or didn't listen to those that tried to help you, you would get kicked out of squad and wouldn't be able to advance. Even clerics and barbs were not above that general rule, and if squad got wiped enough times they would just quit, leaving the individual in question without the mats/exp/item they needed to reach the next pinnacle of achievement. THAT is the key factor that FC allows players to bypass and that is what needs to be brought back to this game.

Would putting a level restriction on FC do this? Not really. Most of what I just described was accomplished in the lev 70-100 range and FC if capped would still allow those levels to bypass that experience. I would say that PWI would have to add an instance where squad cooperation was mandatory, but here's the thing, they have one. It's called Endless Universe. The advanced version is not as unforgiving but still follows some of the same principles. The problem remains however that hypering in FC still gives more exp and reward than EU and even AEU so that the squad dynamic can still be bypassed and the problem remains unsolved. I understand this would in fact propose no hypering in Frost whatsoever, which I do not support, but it really seems to be the primary issue of the experience vs. non experience argument.

As for the third argument. I don't need to go into how unfair and unbalanced it is, and I'm sure there will be those that will say it isn't. Whatever the case, it remains a fact, and since they are the ones that enable low level pleveling en mass in the first place one can say the fault falls on them for PWE wanting to shut hypers off in that instance. Will they find some other way? Sure they will, but at least PWE is willing to take steps to add balance back to the game, even though it is usually too little too late.

MasterPerian - Lost City

Should just make it unable to hyper lvl in frost period. We might see more activity on the map rather than people power lvling and running instances all day.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

Edalus - Momaganon wrote: »

This little piece of talk-talk was very funny, as it is nothing than just a plain rhetoric trick called "extension" by the philosopher Schopenhauer: all you do is overstretching the cited statement to make it seem absurd, moreover you equate "Hyper in FCC" with "gooning" without arguing for it but you only take it for granted.

I deem posts using such rhetoric tricks very suspicios.

If they just had introduced hyper as a way to make money for saving time otherwise used for leveling, you should not equate this easy-making with the abuse of the mechanic of this easy-making.
I just find no arguements in all of these text walls besides value judgements or pride or even jealousy. All of the problems around FCC babies would not be solved, because way back in the PW MS version I found enough "babies" around higher levels also, so that arguement is outright not valid.
But it is all good I do not expect more of the player base here.

An interesting mix of cherry-picked of subject matter, speculation of motives and condescension. Thanks for moving the discussion forward.

kaleya

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

Holy cow! Every rebuttal you offered in this post is dependent upon misinterpreting or mischaracterizing my point. Very frustrating.


I've gone way out of my way to continually disclaim absolutes. I won't waste time repeating those many posts.



See above.

It is intuitively obvious, however, that players who practice receive a benefit that those who don't, don't. We both know that was the intent of my position. Why don't we skip the contortions?



This is getting old.

It's also a poor argument to argue against the absolute of an argument (an absolute that you inserted into the argument, then attempted to assign to me) then use that rebuttal to pretend that my actual statement has no merit at all.



* shaking my head *



This is an interesting anecdote but I don't see the link from story to analysis to valid reason. I disagree with your conclusions.



I missed the part where you demonstrated the quality of your gameplay. In fact, you've simply demonstrated what I talked about in several posts: every power-leveler says they know their toon. Every one of them tell me how they are hard-workers and good learners and their substitute studies are just as good as having learned from practice. You may well be a good player. I've disclaimed the notion of identical results 100 times. I stand by my analysis that there are way more poor players among plevelers than among non-plevelers. I've yet to see anything more than a story of someone who considers themselves an exception.



But in reality, you've strengthened my point. Your anecdote says,

As I mentioned, I wasn't saying anything against you since you didn't use absolutes in your statements on the latter. My first statement was directed to your first statement, and nothing else. My statements were directed those towards those who do believe it in an absolute way, so I have "nothing against you" (which I said at the very end). My rebuttal isn't towards anything you have said specifically, I just thought you had made some points that can be addressed by another viewpoint.

As for my anecdote, I was just pointing out there are different methods people use in order to learn a particular class. Everyone's different in their playstyle. I'm not rebutting against you, just pointing out to others who claim otherwise.

But you are right. I inserted the tl;dr after the I posted since it's quite long, and didn't give much thought of it. It should have been "not necessarily," though if you read in the latter I said not everyone can be held by the same standards and used "some do and some don't."

I use a story of an exception because in your first statement you said "NEVER does ANY pleveler recognize what they don't know." It was just to disprove that statement. Are there "way more poor players among plevelers than among non-plevelers?" Guess it depends on the person's judgement of proficiency.

Edalus - Dreamweaver

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

An interesting mix of cherry-picked of subject matter, speculation of motives and condescension. Thanks for moving the discussion forward.

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

... every power-leveler says they know their toon. Every one of them tell me how they are hard-workers and good learners and their substitute studies are just as good as having learned from practice. You may well be a good player. I've disclaimed the notion of identical results 100 times. I stand by my analysis that there are way more poor players among plevelers than among non-plevelers. I've yet to see anything more than a story of someone who considers themselves an exception.
...,

You see, I still do not pretend to know what is in the mind of somebody else and had my post outlining my answers somewhere else in this thread but your post was too much of an hot-air balloon. At least, I do not refer to some fictual wanna-be analysis which - omitting conceited titles - one could just call: personal experience, and which would be totally different for myself but I do not dare to entitel it an analysis which more strongly pretends thoroughness.
You can placidly emphasise that I am just speculating but then we could directly foster Solipsism.

The problem with your posts is that you do not discuss; you just slap your opinion in the face of others and baptise your personal experience with conceited titles making useless any response to your posts.

And what else could we discuss here if one claims one thing and another cailms another thing? Pretending to argue? Going your way and call even personal experience an analysis?
I said I saw people even in older versions who learned nothing of their toons (60+ cleric and veno were unable to do FB29) and I never learned something useful leveling my toon to 70 (at which point I first cared about spending money and tried out hypers).
I did see that people are forgetting some tricks in the old instances but even disabling hypers does not help against learn-resistent players but against raising alts.
Just a speculation? That is right, my calims about the future are always speculations; but I am glad if you have found a way to be certain about the future as it is unique in the history of augury.

Simi_P - Dreamweaver

I vote for level restricted.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

kaleya wrote: »

As I mentioned, I wasn't saying anything against you since you didn't use absolutes in your statements on the latter. My first statement was directed to your first statement, and nothing else. My statements were directed those towards those who do believe it in an absolute way, so I have "nothing against you" (which I said at the very end). My rebuttal isn't towards anything you have said specifically, I just thought you had made some points that can be addressed by another viewpoint.

As for my anecdote, I was just pointing out there are different methods people use in order to learn a particular class. Everyone's different in their playstyle. I'm not rebutting against you, just pointing out to others who claim otherwise.

But you are right. I inserted the tl;dr after the I posted since it's quite long, and didn't give much thought of it. It should have been "not necessarily," though if you read in the latter I said not everyone can be held by the same standards and used "some do and some don't."

I use a story of an exception because in your first statement you said "NEVER does ANY pleveler recognize what they don't know." It was just to disprove that statement. Are there "way more poor players among plevelers than among non-plevelers?" Guess it depends on the person's judgement of proficiency.

Thanks for the follow-up. I appreciate your demeanor and your patience.

The thing about knowing what you don't know ...... you can point out what you know but how can you say that this means there is not more? Again, I'm not pointing at you. You may be awesome. It's not impossible by any stretch.

But picture this experience: a guy in your guild is an fc addict; every day, several times a day, begging and buying heads. He's now a 96 bm. He asks for help with his 69 culti. He had crappy, low-level armor and no idea where to go or what to expect in Wraithgate. When everyone else buffed, he stood there until someone asked for bp. When we fought Pyro, he hung back and watched until somebody in the squad called him out. We finished the culti and started toward to Pole and Nob for bh for other squad members. Soon after we left Pyro, the sin left squad. We whispered him but he didn't answer (he was still online). A few minutes later, he was on fac chat, asking for fc.

I whispered him again, asking why he didn't stay to help the others (who had squadded to help him with his culti). I told him that squad etiquette demanded that he stay in squad until everyone got what they need. His response: my time is limited. I can't afford to do that every time I need help. We had an interesting exchange, the details of which I won't share. The takeaway is that he had no familiarity with or tolerance for etiquette and protocol and he had no sense of how to fight in a squad.

He bristled when I suggested that he needs to learn to work with others (a euphemistic way of saying he needs to learn something other than fc). The first sever words out of his mouth ... keyboard were, "I KNOW HOW TO PLAY MY TOON!" And he believed it. And why shouldn't he? By skipping a lot of the game, he concentrated on the things that he knew to do. How could he know there was more, without having been in a situation to see the need or the method?

So you may indeed know all there is to know but how do you know you do? I suggest that a great many plevelers don't know to look for the things they don't know.

Now, before anybody pigeon-holes my response to suggest anything other than an example of how/why people continue to miss out on valuable skill and info, it is just a real-world, true-story example.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

Edalus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You see, I still do not pretend to know what is in the mind of somebody else and had my post outlining my answers somewhere else in this thread but your post was too much of an hot-air balloon. At least, I do not refer to some fictual wanna-be analysis which - omitting conceited titles - one could just call: personal experience, and which would be totally different for myself but I do not dare to entitel it an analysis which more strongly pretends thoroughness.
You can placidly emphasise that I am just speculating but then we could directly foster Solipsism.

The problem with your posts is that you do not discuss; you just slap your opinion in the face of others and baptise your personal experience with conceited titles making useless any response to your posts.

And what else could we discuss here if one claims one thing and another cailms another thing? Pretending to argue? Going your way and call even personal experience an analysis?
I said I saw people even in older versions who learned nothing of their toons (60+ cleric and veno were unable to do FB29) and I never learned something useful leveling my toon to 70 (at which point I first cared about spending money and tried out hypers).
I did see that people are forgetting some tricks in the old instances but even disabling hypers does not help against learn-resistent players but against raising alts.
Just a speculation? That is right, my calims about the future are always speculations; but I am glad if you have found a way to be certain about the future as it is unique in the history of augury.

Yes, yes, yes. I'm a big, mean ol' man who has evil motives that cause all of my logic and opinions to be worthy of dismissal without consideration. Yada, yada, yada.

Edalus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The problem with your posts is that you do not discuss; you just slap your opinion in the face of others and baptise your personal experience with conceited titles making useless any response to your posts.

lol at the brazen hypocrisy of this pseudo-intellectual ****. And lol at you thinking you need to define solipsism for me. You'd best check that mirror, kid.

I get it. You're allowed to speculate and but I have to back observations with statistical analysis and peer-reviewed dissertations. I get it. [yawn]

Be my guest to disagree, but yes, I'm confident in my assertion that pleveling ruins a lot of players and damages the game, your insufficient huffing-and-puffing notwithstanding.

LightningI - Archosaur

b:shocked
Oh no,
Don't disable it..
A level restrict could be okayish..but.............don't disable it.

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

Yes, yes, yes. I'm a big, mean ol' man who has evil motives that cause all of my logic and opinions to be worthy of dismissal without consideration. Yada, yada, yada.



lol at the brazen hypocrisy of this pseudo-intellectual ****. And lol at you thinking you need to define solipsism for me. You'd best check that mirror, kid.

I get it. You're allowed to speculate and but I have to back observations with statistical analysis and peer-reviewed dissertations. I get it. [yawn]

Be my guest to disagree, but yes, I'm confident in my assertion that pleveling ruins a lot of players and damages the game, your insufficient huffing-and-puffing notwithstanding.

b:laugh I DISAGREE, DON'T DISABLE IT!

tooocoool

Changing this now is just stupid. I can't believe GM's are even putting this to a vote. This should have been changed before goonz where ever abused, not now. NW brings a lot of appeal to new players, making it 50x harder to lvl up now than it was 2 years ago is the dumbest thing any MMO could do. Good luck in the future with new players.
Powerleveling does not make bad players, some people just suck at the types of games, whether they lvl slow or plvl they just play casually and are never going to be pro.

I was one of the best players to play this game and I powerlevel'd my only toon in FC. I don't enjoy quests, I enjoy competetiveness. The majority of people voting yes and lvl restricted suck at this game themselves and blame others for their shortcomings.

When I died, I blamed myself, I never cared how anyone else lvl'd or expected them to keep me or a squad alive.

I only ever lvl'd up one char and don't plan to lvl up any others ever. Yet I don't expect the new players who want to enjoy events and NW, TW to have to suffer lvling up when 2 years ago in FC goonz you could be 100 in a day or two.

Very unprofessional way of dealing with a problem in my opinion, allowing this vote.

Apostasy - Raging Tide

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

You would have to take every single leveling/farming instance out of the game to achieve that. No FC, no TT, no Nirvana (okay, it's dead, but it still counted before NW), no CoA, no PV. I'm sure you don't want all of those instances disabled.

No reason for no fc... there is a level requirement to open it, and a level requirement to even enter should be added...

No tt?... this i cant say anything about as i only went in there as well just for quests... which im up to again to open map 3...

no Nirvana?... this is still most certainly there, same as it ever was... it is level restricted at 100.

CoA... lol... any lowbies gonna powerlevel there way up in there once a week for an hour? Be my guest b:chuckle

PV... also restricted already...

so where is this "all disabled" coming from? b:question

Edalus - Momaganon

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

...
But picture this experience: a guy in your guild is an fc addict; every day, several times a day, begging and buying heads. He's now a 96 bm. He asks for help with his 69 culti. He had crappy, low-level armor and no idea where to go or what to expect in Wraithgate. When everyone else buffed, he stood there until someone asked for bp. When we fought Pyro, he hung back and watched until somebody in the squad called him out. We finished the culti and started toward to Pole and Nob for bh for other squad members. Soon after we left Pyro, the sin left squad. We whispered him but he didn't answer (he was still online). A few minutes later, he was on fac chat, asking for fc.

I whispered him again, asking why he didn't stay to help the others (who had squadded to help him with his culti). I told him that squad etiquette demanded that he stay in squad until everyone got what they need. His response: my time is limited. I can't afford to do that every time I need help. We had an interesting exchange, the details of which I won't share. The takeaway is that he had no familiarity with or tolerance for etiquette and protocol and he had no sense of how to fight in a squad.

He bristled when I suggested that he needs to learn to work with others (a euphemistic way of saying he needs to learn something other than fc). The first sever words out of his mouth ... keyboard were, "I KNOW HOW TO PLAY MY TOON!" And he believed it. And why shouldn't he? By skipping a lot of the game, he concentrated on the things that he knew to do. How could he know there was more, without having been in a situation to see the need or the method?

So you may indeed know all there is to know but how do you know you do? I suggest that a great many plevelers don't know to look for the things they don't know.

...

Now I understand how you came to your standpoint but here the problem arouses: I saw the same behaviour with people who did quests like all in the older versions and they behaved in the same way like your sin and they just followed and never ask why people were doing this or that, they were outright unable to do things by themself.

I just think you confuse cause and result: their behavior is not because of any hyper or fcc, their fcc addicition and fixation is because of their behavior and the latter is related to their personality which is surely not affected solely by fcc or hyper, thus I deem a disable or lvl restriction as actionism.

As for your response, maybe my post was too rambling, but some points:
- I never said something about your intention, thoughts or motivs; only to your use of words (which never can be a pure matter of fact as defining can be hard but one can recognise it if seen).
- I never had any interest in you, your life, background or anything related to you; only to your posts.
- I do not care how old you are, so do not talk about it; I am an misanthrop, believe it or not.
- I am hair-splitting at times, believe it or not.
- You should not conclude anything from the writings to the writer.
- You should not use dirty words and call others a kid; I am no native english speaker, but it seems that the bar already fell to the floor.
- We are not writing to only each other, nice that you know some rambling words like me but others may not.