Disable hypers in frost, yes, no or LV restricted?

CJD - Heavens Tear · March 2013

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

This is the problem. I've read this book multiple times. There's some parts I really enjoy reading and others I just hate and skip over. Does this make me a bad reader for wanting to skip over those parts and just reread the ones I really liked? No, lol. And just like the parts of the book I don't enjoy, I don't want to do the same ****ing quests over and over again on alts when I already know what happens and that the reward isn't anything as good as the Goshiki questline or the Morai questlines or, hell, even the new veno/barb form questline.

Until they make a bunch of quests like that as well as implement some kind of decent PVP for lower levels (whether it be through event or instance, idc), I want the option to basically skip over to end-game that leveling in FC provides. The PVE is ****ing abysmal because it has very little reward before end-game outside of a few certain quests and there's like no PVP content until end game outside of like PVP tournament on Thursdays and even then, people usually don't even kill people until they have to in there. NW? Lets be real, it's just not fun at all to just get constantly one-shot by people that out-gear and out-level you by 10 or 40 levels.

So far every single argument I've seen from the people who want to keep hypers out of FC boils down to:

1. "wah people can level faster than i could back in the day" (It's called innovation and new ideas. Get used it or just quit right now. Actually, quit like three or four years ago.)
2. "wah i don't know how to use the kick from squad or leave squad buttons" (Your own fault.)
3. "wah i don't want to explain how to do things to people so maybe they'll improve" (Once again, your own fault. Making them do quests isn't going to magically bootstrap them into awesome players. People taking their time to help and explain things to them is what will make them improve.)
4. "wah but i want to make them suffer through all the same **** i did to level up" (Well, aren't you just a little bag of sunshine...)
5. "wah the world map is unpopulated" (Because the quests, outside of a very few of them, aren't actually worth doing, derp... Especially a second or third time.)
6. "wah everyone should be forced to level alts the hard way just like me because i don't find early- and mid-game boring" (And what if they do though? You're not them. Why are you forcing your beliefs on them? If you re-enable hypers in FC, what does it hurt?)

b:cry I feel what you're saying here

Started in : 2009 March

Cleric, BM, Veno, Sin, Mystic, Seeker ...... *SIGH*

holyangel9000 · March 2013

b:surrender i need frost soon how i make my coins soon not only that pkers will all ways kill lower people and thy just kill and they quit the game

Takashi_MAGE - Archosaur · March 2013

Ive been playing for years. I took some time off and missed the whole hyper baby stage. Otherwise Id have ten toons at lvl 100+ as well. Now that im back im bombarded with new quests that fly me back and forth and get me know where. If I wanna do bh or somthing to get exp I have to troll wc for hours. For classes that solo alot like wizards we need as much help as we can get.
Give us the exp for the time we put into running FC. I agree you cant undo the damage of babies now, so dont try. And dont level restriction because if people want to take a new in or and alt let them its been part of the game for years and years. People will always make fast new charters. If I messed up and wanted to restart I would hate to have to put more time then its worth into a fresh toon. FC is the equalizer and it should stay as it was, hypers shouldnt be restircted cause of heads exp.

speedracer1488 · March 2013

I like the lvl restricted idea but then what r the high lvl going to do to get exp as well if its restricted is there going to be somthing for the higher lvls or what way will the restricted lvl go to keep high lvls out or low lvls b:questionb:question

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · March 2013

I know some people that play since over 3 years a class, didn't power lvl at all and suck really bad as ''some'' power lvl FC babies are not ALL bad. If someone is good he will learn sooner or later, if someone is bad and don't want to learn he will suck nvm how fast he lvl.

GlenRoss - Archosaur · March 2013

Levantica - Raging Tide wrote: »

Easy for you to care, you 103 lvl and don't care anymore. How about to close NW and go back to Nirvana when is X2, will you care then? That is my argument and it does a lot of sens. Just cuz you dont care anymore about FC dont mean you should decide for other people how they choose to lvl the characters.

You know nothing about me so to say I don't care is ignorant nonsense.

I survived without NW and would again if they decided to discontinue it. I wouldn't whine or stomp my feet or wrap myself in victimhood. I'd play the game and enjoy it. Because, y'see, I don't have an entitlement to have them dump success in my lap and I don't spend my time siphoning money from noobs to help them bypass the game.

Now, do you have a more relevant, logical argument or is your next post just going to be another attempt to debase me because you have none.

GlenRoss - Archosaur · March 2013

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yes, many greedy, selfish and or careless opinions have been voiced. They aren't sufficient to actually bring the result they claim either. b:chuckle

Really guys, is this all you have? Insult the poster instead of address the subject?

Sad.

VISHALRAJ - Archosaur · March 2013

it's best if it's level restriced to 85+.... getiing to 85 is easy but goin after 85 is the hardest part cos we need a lotta exp that is not possibly attained by questing or bh's so it's best that fc is lvl restricted to only lvl 85+ b:victoryb:victoryb:victory

GlenRoss - Archosaur · March 2013

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

If you don't like the way someone else plays ("hyper babies" or "people that don't know their class"), then don't play with them. If someone power levels all the way to 100+ without ever learning how to play, it doesn't hurt the game for anyone but themselves.

Simply and obviously not true. I stopped reading at this point.

VISHALRAJ - Archosaur · March 2013

and it's kinda like the only way to farm coin for who dont/cant invest real money to buy in-game gold.... fc,tt,warsong,NW r the only few things we ppl have to farm coin..... if fc is banned it's gonna trouble a lotta ppl cos there r tons of ppl who farm only through fc/tt/warsong/NW so just lvl restrict it to 85+ please! (p.s i farm through fc cos i cnt buy in-game gold at my place)

XKimiko - Sanctuary · March 2013

Yes? Why so we can have another dead instance and level slow?

What's the point of this? Noone was complaining before until this incident came up. From what I see, people want level restriction for 3 reasons:

1: They are jealous of people leveling faster because they can solo for their alt/friend or put in money to buy the damn exp room.

2: They blame people for "leveling too fast in fcc" and not knowing how to play their class or game.

3: They are old fashion players and still haven't learnt how to adapt to any changes made yet.

Well theres nothing wrong with leveling fast. And right now I don't see any way of leveling too fast. Also here is what I find most important.

NO MATTER HOW SLOW SOMEONE LEVELS, IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY BETTER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EVEN TAKE A DAY TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY YOUR CLASS! Some people just suck! =.=

I have played this game back before FCC came out, maybe even before Hyper Stones did, or I just didn't even know Hyper Stones existed yet. People had World Quest, Zen, Crazy Stone, BH, oracles (going back to oracles is no different to stopping fcc, its just going to drain money so badly), regular questing, and DQ drops were great. Think there was even Friendship Crystals and people helping to complete FB which gave some exp, and genies had just come out. In my experience leveling slow like back then was HORRIBLE and PEOPLE STILL SUCKED. Some people just can't learn or ever be good. Even to this day. Even in other games. This is just how humans are. Some fail, while others succeed.

And I have 2 accounts. This is my main account and I have 8 characters all lvl 102. (10 if they ever expand the damn character slots for 1 per class =.= ). 5 of them characters were back when it was only the original 6 classes doing leveling the hard way. Do we really need to do the same old boring quests again and again and AGAIN each alt we make like the old days? HELL NO. That's what FCC and nix valley is for. Leveling slow was and still is a POINTLESS GRIND! There is nothing even good about being low lvl. And if we force people to level slow... do we really need another lvl 60 mystic in nation war grabbing the flag and moving slow and getting one shotted when instead they could hit level 100 quickly and have at least some decent gear? (easy with account stash)

Everything is about end game now. We can't make money at low level. If we take away FCC or restrict leveling that also hurts people making profit off of selling FCC.

People should level fast, if not then faster!!! Like I said it doesn't even take a day to learn your class. Some people just plain suck. And here one way to learn a class in less than 2 hours:

Read YOUR DAMN SKILLS! Its amazing how easy it is!
www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skill.php

Heres something amazing I'll tell you. I played a friends assasin since i can't make one on my main account. My first time trying the class already lvl 100. And wow! So easy to learn how to play in 2 hours just by reading your skills. So easy that I would say I am already a better assasin at knowing how to play the class than half the assasins in the server! See? Isn't that amazing! It didn't even take me a day to learn how to play the class and no not aps spamming and not OP gear. So someone please explain to me this:

WHAT THE HELL CAN YOU LEARN IN TAKING MONTHS OR A YEAR PLAYING A NEW CLASS GRINDING SLOW AND HARD, THAT YOU CAN'T JUST LEARN IN A DAY.

It's not science. It's just a game. So easy... and if someone sucks then guess what it doesn't mean they are a "fcc noob", the person themself fails. Harsh? Maybe. But it's true. Also sometimes lag happens or someone just can't play as well as you do. You can't blame fcc.

Also how does questing and stuff even make you experienced in squad play. Maybe a BH or 2 is all you need. And I speak from experience that someone like me or many other fcc spammers from level 1 are a lot better than a lot of slow leveling players with having equal or worse gear. As for pvp, sure, you are going to need experience and maybe someone to teach you, but I promise PvE won't teach you anything, PvE is a joke anyway. When it comes to PvE on a new alt I stopped spamming FCC on, sometimes I get people telling me how good I am in FCC or some sort of BH. And thats with no experience on the new class. Because theres nothing to learn and experience in PvE. Just read your damn skills and play. If you think your skilled and still suck, then get better gear, a charm, a better genie, some apothecary, defence charms, just stop sucking, almost anything can be soloed quickly by any class.

LAST OF ALL! I feel leveling is still kind of slow hitting 100. FCC is already a boring grind anyway even if you just buy exp rooms all day. If anything they should bring dragoon exp back! (NO NOT FOR THE GLITCH) I have no idea how many times I have soloed or killed them with other people so easily just to get such bad exp... Remove the optional boss. It's not worth the time to even pick up the quest for that guy. Or remove the dragoons he spawns. Do something! A replacement boss. I don't care. Nerfing things isn't always a positive solution. And it's not right that we "abused fcc" as some people would say, to then just nerf or restrict it for other people who may just end up missing out on the luxury we had!

GlenRoss - Archosaur · March 2013

KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm against removing hypers from FCC. I'm a college student with a full time job and limited time to play, but I've played several characters into the 50s, 60s, and 80s. I know how to play my characters and what roles they have in different places, and if I don't know something I know to ask others.

Disclaimer: I'm not questioning your abilities. I don't know you and it is not relevant to my point.

I've discussed this with a lot of plevelers. Never once have I had the conversation without them claiming, "I know how to play my character." NEVER does ANY pleveler recognize what they don't know. I've fought alongside many of these same people and seen their claims of proficiency ring hollow. Logically, how can it not be of benefit to have faced more varied battle scenarios?

Even non-fc-babies lock in on certain skills and fail to realize their full potential. There's just no substitute for broad experience.

KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »

FCC leveling just allows me to skip the boring parts of the game that take up my time (which again is limited). Also I know that questing at that point becomes tedious and the rewards have diminishing returns.

If you only recognize drops and exp as rewards, I guess that's true. That is part of the disconnect in this debate: one side is looking at the quality of the game, the other side seems to be looking only at what tangible, instant reward they receive. I don't mean that as an insult to any participants, here. Just making an observation.

My time is limited, too and I get anxious to get the next reward. I keep telling myself, the game will still be here, tomorrow and I don't have to get to the end of it today. Skipping the game is for what purpose? To get to the game?

KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »

I don't mind it sometimes, but when you have limited time to play, forcing everyone to focus on one style of play (grinding) isn't really fair.

"Fair" is the most misused word in the English language. Unfair, means you are owed something that you're not getting. Unless there's a guarantee in the fine print of the PWI charter that says we will all get equal outcomes and conditions, there is no "fair" or "unfair" in this matter. If you're arguing equal opportunity, then the old-timers have a much more legitimate complaint. FC and and great many other opportunities were not available to them at all and they fought through circumstances that the newer people get to bypass, or race through, easily.

KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »

Besides, I've yet to have a character hit 100 and taking away hyper in fc will likely keep me from ever hitting that goal. I could have had my veno at 100 now but I took a break at my current level of 89 to farm some tt mats.

And that was your choice. Hitting 100 quickly is neither a right nor a necessity. I would love to hit 105 but I have not complaint that PWI isn't making it instant for me. I'm doing other things while my exp ticks upward at glacial speed.

KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »

In short: not everyone is a power leveled noob

I wholeheartedly agree. But I also observe that there are way more plevers than non-plevelers who don't know their toons and, just as importantly, have little sense of the protocols and etiquette of squad play. And that DOES affect others.

KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »

and fcc hyper leveling is fine for people who know what they're doing. And since I have limited time to play, don't force me to grind to 105.

Again, my observation is that a great many plevelers DON'T know what they're doing, but don't recognized the shortcoming. I don't have a big issue with occasional FC hypering. I do have an issue with those who skip the experience of the game in favor of constant FC or worse, just FC heads. I would NEVER force you to grind to 105. It's a game. You can choose to play it or not play it.

KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »

Edit: Just to drive the idea home, I think the idea that too many people are power-leveled noobs is blown a bit out of proportion. While there are still some people who have a ways to go, I've actually had a lot better luck recently getting good groups in instances than I have had in previous years. If anything I think more people know what they are doing now, though there are always exceptions.

Couldn't disagree more. My observation is that the quality of random groups has dropped dramatically, starting at the Age of Goons.

GlenRoss - Archosaur · March 2013

XKimiko - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes? Why so we can have another dead instance and level slow?

What's the point of this? Noone was complaining before until this incident came up. From what I see, people want level restriction for 3 reasons:

1: They are jealous of people leveling faster because they can solo for their alt/friend or put in money to buy the damn exp room.

2: They blame people for "leveling too fast in fcc" and not knowing how to play their class or game.

3: They are old fashion players and still haven't learnt how to adapt to any changes made yet.

Well theres nothing wrong with leveling fast. And right now I don't see any way of leveling too fast. Also here is what I find most important.

NO MATTER HOW SLOW SOMEONE LEVELS, IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY BETTER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EVEN TAKE A DAY TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY YOUR CLASS! Some people just suck! =.=

wow.

Stopped reading at that point.

1) Trashing people's motives does nothing to help a weak argument.

2) There are 70 pages of explanation of our opinion, yet you choose to set up evil strawmen and assign them to us. Fail.

3) No, people have complained about plevelers for a long time. This did not come up suddenly. Perhaps you should understand that there are things which are good to know which are outside the realm of your current understanding or experience.

4) If you think it takes less than a day to learn to play your class, you've made our point.

Colum - Raging Tide · March 2013

So much text while I was gone!

Anyways my lvl 94 cleric got 12% from one single PV. Stop complaining about exp guys.

XKimiko - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes? Why so we can have another dead instance and level slow?

It won't be a dead instance if they bring mats back or set level cap

What's the point of this? Noone was complaining before until this incident came up. From what I see, people want level restriction for 3 reasons:

I was complaining

1: They are jealous of people leveling faster because they can solo for their alt/friend or put in money to buy the damn exp room.

Jelly? Lolz I can solo the FC by myself but I won't do it. Why? I do not want more plvled nabs in my BHs.

2: They blame people for "leveling too fast in fcc" and not knowing how to play their class or game.

They don't know their class. This is a fact.

3: They are old fashion players and still haven't learnt how to adapt to any changes made yet.

I have adapted to most changes but hypers gone/level restrict for FC would make this game more lively. I am also against the full atk in panda barb sage but that is not the subject of this thread.

Well theres nothing wrong with leveling fast. And right now I don't see any way of leveling too fast. Also here is what I find most important.

NO MATTER HOW SLOW SOMEONE LEVELS, IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY BETTER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EVEN TAKE A DAY TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY YOUR CLASS! Some people just suck! =.=

Even a day? You just made MY day. b:thanks

I have played this game back before FCC came out, maybe even before Hyper Stones did, or I just didn't even know Hyper Stones existed yet. People had World Quest, Zen, Crazy Stone, BH, oracles (going back to oracles is no different to stopping fcc, its just going to drain money so badly), regular questing, and DQ drops were great. Think there was even Friendship Crystals and people helping to complete FB which gave some exp, and genies had just come out. In my experience leveling slow like back then was HORRIBLE and PEOPLE STILL SUCKED. Some people just can't learn or ever be good. Even to this day. Even in other games. This is just how humans are. Some fail, while others succeed.

And you are the one who succeeds, then? How do these people actually suck? Bad gear? Bad knowledge of new things? Stupidity?
There are sucky people and non-sucky people always, true. There are, however, people who would learn better if they weren't distracted to the dangerous world of hyper leveling. I have taught newbies to play and I have guided them out of hypering as total noobs. Nowadays they are decent players and know their place. They admit that their first chars were hypered and they could not get a touch of the char anymore.

And I have 2 accounts. This is my main account and I have 8 characters all lvl 102. (10 if they ever expand the damn character slots for 1 per class =.= ). 5 of them characters were back when it was only the original 6 classes doing leveling the hard way. Do we really need to do the same old boring quests again and again and AGAIN each alt we make like the old days? HELL NO. That's what FCC and nix valley is for. Leveling slow was and still is a POINTLESS GRIND! There is nothing even good about being low lvl. And if we force people to level slow... do we really need another lvl 60 mystic in nation war grabbing the flag and moving slow and getting one shotted when instead they could hit level 100 quickly and have at least some decent gear? (easy with account stash)

What good there is about being a high lvl? Journey is what matters, not the end of it.

Everything is about end game now. We can't make money at low level. If we take away FCC or restrict leveling that also hurts people making profit off of selling FCC.

Lol, FC profit? Go grind, sell TM or something else more useful. Hell, learn to merchant.

People should level fast, if not then faster!!! Like I said it doesn't even take a day to learn your class. Some people just plain suck. And here one way to learn a class in less than 2 hours:

Read YOUR DAMN SKILLS! Its amazing how easy it is!
www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skill.php

Heres something amazing I'll tell you. I played a friends assasin since i can't make one on my main account. My first time trying the class already lvl 100. And wow! So easy to learn how to play in 2 hours just by reading your skills. So easy that I would say I am already a better assasin at knowing how to play the class than half the assasins in the server! See? Isn't that amazing! It didn't even take me a day to learn how to play the class and no not aps spamming and not OP gear. So someone please explain to me this:

WHAT THE HELL CAN YOU LEARN IN TAKING MONTHS OR A YEAR PLAYING A NEW CLASS GRINDING SLOW AND HARD, THAT YOU CAN'T JUST LEARN IN A DAY.

I don't believe your amazing learning skillz before you actually show them to us. Do you immediately know how to work with your squad?
For example, as a healer, do you know how to keep alive three different peopl getting aggro with this day of knowledge? Do you know how to help those survive who can't aggro all mobs (sins who need to live with spark+BP no time for aoe)?
With this day of knowledge can you succesfully pull in Lunar with a... Blademaster?

It's not science. It's just a game. So easy... and if someone sucks then guess what it doesn't mean they are a "fcc noob", the person themself fails. Harsh? Maybe. But it's true. Also sometimes lag happens or someone just can't play as well as you do. You can't blame fcc.

Yes we partly can blame FC last room.

Also how does questing and stuff even make you experienced in squad play. Maybe a BH or 2 is all you need. And I speak from experience that someone like me or many other fcc spammers from level 1 are a lot better than a lot of slow leveling players with having equal or worse gear. As for pvp, sure, you are going to need experience and maybe someone to teach you, but I promise PvE won't teach you anything, PvE is a joke anyway. When it comes to PvE on a new alt I stopped spamming FCC on, sometimes I get people telling me how good I am in FCC or some sort of BH. And thats with no experience on the new class. Because theres nothing to learn and experience in PvE. Just read your damn skills and play. If you think your skilled and still suck, then get better gear, a charm, a better genie, some apothecary, defence charms, just stop sucking, almost anything can be soloed quickly by any class.

People used to quest together, zhen party together. Are you telling me it teaches nothing?

LAST OF ALL! I feel leveling is still kind of slow hitting 100. FCC is already a boring grind anyway even if you just buy exp rooms all day. If anything they should bring dragoon exp back! (NO NOT FOR THE GLITCH) I have no idea how many times I have soloed or killed them with other people so easily just to get such bad exp... Remove the optional boss. It's not worth the time to even pick up the quest for that guy. Or remove the dragoons he spawns. Do something! A replacement boss. I don't care. Nerfing things isn't always a positive solution. And it's not right that we "abused fcc" as some people would say, to then just nerf or restrict it for other people who may just end up missing out on the luxury we had!

Yeah...... no

My answers in Blue. Have a great day.

mrcharlythree · March 2013

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

My time is limited, too and I get anxious to get the next reward. I keep telling myself, the game will still be here, tomorrow and I don't have to get to the end of it today. Skipping the game is for what purpose? To get to the game?

I think this paragraph says everything that needs to be said.

kaleya · March 2013

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

we might have other opinions on the subject but that doesnt mean im selfish. it only means that id rather see this game back to where ppl would be helping each other stead of instant gratification. if you wanna talk bout selfish, wht bout the hundreds of plvled noobs who do nothing for other players less theres something in it for them. what bout making bhs active again to where you can and will find your average player looking for those bhs. i think im more selfless than i am selfish by saying this. im in this for the veteran players of pwi compared to the heartless players who got their goodies all in one basket. if you want to talk bout heartless and selfish, take a good look in the mirror at yourself first before judging someones motive or reasoning behind their opinion. If you think that by attacking my knowledgeable opinion than you can just go soak yourself in the river.

Your opinion isn't knowledgeable because you put all the blame on these so called "plvled noobs." I assure you, there are just as many "veteran players" who do nothing for other players. You can't just generalize a whole group of people because you're butthurt.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

1) idc if im taking "ppls fun away" or not. if you want to play a game right stop cheating it like it came with cheat codes or something and idc if its taking possible profit away from those that have instant gratification for plvling newbies. it is dead wrong to take advantage of ppl who are possibly new to pwi and have no foggy clue on how pwi used to be. plus am i insulting you? no. making a better point than you? maybe yes and maybe no but i will always tell it like it is and if anyone cant see that then they are doomed to fail from the very start.

Yet again, you put words in my mouth. Did I say anything about taking people's fun away? No. I said you're taking away people's ability to level OR make profit. How is leveling yourself in FF cheating? Just because people don't want to spend repetitive amounts of time doing the same quests over and over again is cheating? Just because people pay with their own money to level is cheating? No, not even.. PWI doesn't gain many new players anyways, and even if they do, the "plvled noobs" aren't the ones making it hard for them to stay. It's a much bigger issue than that, such as the economy etc., so you can't blame them. And yes, you've insulted me several times or made innuendos. If you try and deny that, then so be it. You look foolish, not me.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2) you outta love this accusation, i would probably expect it from a powerlvler who does nothing but make money from exploiting something that shouldnt of been started. its not bout thinking im right no matter what, its bout making common sense no matter what and im way beyond the common sense lvl.

3) the only ones who have a self righteous attitude are those that are saying that powerlvling in FF is fun, ok and shouldnt be lvl limited. so let me say this, youve crossed the line completely pal. if you think im just some egotistical idiot who thinks that im taking yours and others fun away by powerlvling players who have absolutely no brains whatsoever, then ya could say im maybe on the list of ppl who are the same as me. making common sense stick. plus i dont have to explain my claims at all, it would just make me look even more stupid

Again, you don't read and make assumptions. I've began to lost count on how many statements you assert, and then contradict yourself later. I've made notice several times that I'm not a powerleveler.. The reason I say your egotistical is because you make claims without proof, and when someone argues against your opinion, you can only say "i'm right, you're wrong, go ragequit." Without having evidence to back your statements, anything and everything you say is just biased ****. At least you admit that you are somewhat stupid, though. That's one thing we both agree on.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

so in conclusion, sounds like your the one who is pathetic here by being a cry baby just cause he got his feelings hurt and his fun taken away from him like a baby who lost its favorite toy. if im anything at all, its cause i make common sense stick the vast majority of times.

I don't see how I got my feelings hurt? Just because I argue against your claims makes me a cry baby? LOGIC. P.S., you're butthurt for quote telling me I'm a "poor excuse" who should "ragequit" and "soak myself in the river." You're not even worth time anymore.

Now, regarding to the issue at hand, I'm not wholeheartedly against putting a level restriction for hypers in FF. I just don't see how it could combat what people are insinuating are caused by "plvled noobs." The damage is done, it'll always be there. The majority of the playerbase is not made up of new players.. Most of them have high level toons, and if they had to choose between leveling with quests all over again versus player their higher leveled toons that have a wider varierty of things to do, I'm pretty sure they'd pick the higher leveled route.

kingmaster54 · March 2013

A lvl range lvl 75+ is good for FC i think so have many Player time to learn to Play his/her Charakter

Miugre - Heavens Tear · March 2013

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

And there was point when people thought sun circled earth, not the other way around. And with quite different percentages in favor of what was later proved wrong.

Still you dont even register I have massive experience in who buys FC xp rooms and its not consistent with what you say. We can argue my memory can be biased but I suspect it is still better source of data than assumptions you base on nothing. Then again I havent bothered in keeping statistics, too troublesome as I didnt see any point other than curiosity in creating them. Back in days I kept statistics regarding grinding spots while I was leveling my DW archer as I felt that information could be utilized fairly easily.

And no, 65% doesnt consider it cheating. 65% consider there are reasons why it should not be allowed/it should be restricted, not to forget forum community is only minority among game community.

I feel like if you dont learn your toon enough to not fail BH100/whatever in somewhat decent squad by the 75 levels most people take before starting FCs, you arent going to learn it with not FCing levels 75-100. And really, the ones who start FCing earlier are also biggest CSers = Their gear will carry them trough our endgame content, making their lack of skill irrelevant for other players.

Sorry, but I'm not going to listen to the "silent majority" argument. You could spam WC on every server for days and you still won't get a completely accurate measure of community opinion, or anywhere near it. And the reason for that is apathy... the same reason so many polls and actual elections IRL suffer this same problem. But hell, we're using a sample size of 1400 people already. That's more than a lot of IRL surveys get. What more do you want? Or do you just want the heavens to open and magically pour out thousands of pro-powerleveling people whom you seem to think are the silent majority?

I'm not seeing a problem here. What I'm seeing is a man who's not happy with the results, so suddenly the entire poll's not valid.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

You said goons shouldnt of stayed despite the quality of "fix". I argued that for balance between players goons should of stayed or alternative way to level quickly to catch gooners should of been added. Only reason I said anything bout them was your tunnel vision bout the "fix".

If you're gonna wait for them to fix a problem perfectly the first time they try, nothing would ever get done around here. Our devs are simply not that competent, and you know it. :P But baby steps are better than no steps at all. If you think they're dragging their heels on the follow-up, don't complain to me about it - start a campaign to get it fixed.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

It was more of remark bout 100+ players having no real xp instance and how it doesnt change the fact FC was intended for level 75+ players. Overwhelming majority of FC xp room buyers are 75+ and they are doing instance that was intended for their levels. Sure, skipping low xp reward parts can be seen as "not earning the xp" but so what?

Your argument relies on delusion of people powerleveling toons under that with paid service. Level 1 toons have been in FC, those just have been alts of players who are already level 100+ and argument of "FC baby noob" doesnt really hold with such players. They already have good idea what each class can do before playing more than one of them at endgame.

My point is, content level 75- already has fair amount of squad play and is only diminished with new solo quests that are late additions for it. If that content doesnt teach you your class well enough to not be god awful in BH100s then doing PV instead of FC wont change it.

Taking FC out as an option to powerlevel will only change the way people are going to powerlevel till you rampage long enough around with the ban/nerfhammer for people to be unable to find such options any longer. I see no reason in that not being possible but I feel like there would be fair amount of consequences that arent related to fixing powerleveling. I rather not see what kind off mess banning powerleveling completely would create as everything affect everything.

Well, seeing as you're so insistent on me acknowledging your experience with Frost powerleveling... I'll say this. If the vast majority of your clients are 75+, why do they need you to begin with? I've done FFs at 75+... sure it's hell in a handbasket, but that's how you learn your class. FF is completely doable with a 75-80 squad.

I don't mean to make a point here about their laziness at 75+, because I'm sure you have no qualms obliging them for the money. What I am saying is that, were powerleveling removed or restricted, your "overwhelming majority" would really be no worse off than they already are. It's just, y'know, they'd actually have to play the instance themselves.

That's why I haven't responded to the comments about your clientelle until now - because the vast majority of them (according to you) would not be impacted in any significant way. So are we talking about 75-80 people, or are we talking about newbies powerleveling from the lowgame? Which is it?

I would totally support hyper use starting at 75+, if it makes any difference to you.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

And where you base your argument? In seeing bad players in game? And the point of bad players existing anyway isnt relevant? I thought most people saw problem of powerleveling in creating noobs, not in things you believe are problematic bout it.

Well, I'm guess I'm not "most people," then. I can live with that. :P

As far as I'm concerned, bad players are totally relevant to the issue of Frost powerleveling (as I believe it creates more of them than would otherwise exist). However, I also believe that respecting the game's design and keeping parity with those who don't choose to abuse Frost is equally relevant.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Fine, lets point out why they are straw man arguments. I felt it was obvious enough to not elaborate.

Is there really any reason to elaborate? I find the glitch, which is getting fixed, would of been ultimately unfair for everybody by taking away options w/o really affecting the issue it is argued to fix. Simply because I feel this way doesnt mean this game is "terrible and stomping my rights" nor does it mean I couldnt find PWI as a game more appealing than WoW.

First of all, "unfair to everybody" really highlights how out of touch you are, here. Those now-900ish people don't seem to think it's unfair. Actually, they seem to think it's unfair to them that powerleveling exists. I'd be willing to bet they'd take issue with you calling the lack of hypers in Frost a "glitch," too. Again - nice framing, but I'd suggest you take off those rose-tinted glasses before they fog up and obscure your vision entirely. :P

I just found the time to re-read that Wikipedia page of yours in more detail. Sadly that pages takes more liberty with the definition of "strawman" than I've ever heard of. To me, in every contextual use I've ever heard in 10+ years since learning the term, "strawman" has referred to a pesron who goes into a debate willfully intending to lose it in hopes of helping the other side. Hence, the strawman is the person presenting the arguments, not the arguments themselves.

So if I overexaggerated your argument, then I overexaggerated your argument. It makes little difference when the original form of your argument can be refuted just as easily. The same is true of the vast majority of recurring points in the first thirty-odd pages, which I paraphrased in that one post. Had I laboriously gone through all those pages and quoted every individual pro-powereleveling poster, half my responses to them would have looked identical to each other... and indeed, identical to my responses to several of your points. I know you and I are clearly wall-of-text titans and all, but I don't think anyone wants to read that colossal display of redundancy.

(And that's assuming anyone is even still reading this whole argument between you and I... first one to notice this message other than Wnb and me gets a cookie!)

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Actually, hypering is allowed anywhere in the game right now, period. You can loathe me for it all you want, I dont care, its your personal choice. But how I can ask something, which already is, to be legitimized? I have quite clearly stated you can level however you want, its none of my business. You are the one who is trying to restrict something and "expecting whole game to conform to your personal idea of fun".

Edit: To elaborate this point as its bit unclear. It means both there isnt restrictions in using hypers after glitch has been fixed and the lack of rules which would forbid hypering in some manner.

Merging with below:

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I cant remember advocating the creation of hypers and thus I wasnt advocating "a brand-spanking new way to level at at least 10x the speed of any existing method". I have advocated super hypers for 101+ players to fix issues gooning created but that really is completely different matter.

I am not forcing anybody to powerlevel, I am saying they should be allowed to do so if they want to. I am defending the right to choose while you are advocating restrictions. I find it pretty damn funny you blame me of forcing others to accommodate my needs, like seriously, did you even think when you wrote it?

I never said I deserved lvl 80 archer on all servers just because I leveled one there. I questioned what is the point of forcing me to go trough the same old content again just because Ive been missing my archer? Really, I would suspect the grinding, zhenning and gammas I did on DW have given me more than enough experience to not fail as level 100 archer. Which is the main concern why people argue for restricting hypers, not some "earning your level" you are strongly advocating.

As I said above, I'm advocating both points. I don't particularly care whether I'm the only one advocating it or not (though I'm certainly not the only one who feels that way). If you're going to talk to me, you're going to hear this point.

What exactly is "funny" about that? You're absolutely forcing others to accommodate and legitimize this behavior. I'm quite tired of you trying to frame this discussion like you're some noble defender of rights and I and 65% of the forumers are trying to stomp you into the dirt. Nevermind that the only reason you even can frame it that way is because Frost abuse happens to be the status quo at the moment. Hence my earlier mention of role reversal; if powerleveling were such a good idea, then it would hold up under scrutiny whether you happened to be playing offense or defense on its behalf.

But since you seem to be implying that restrictions of any kind are a universal negative... where would you draw the line as to what's acceptable leveling behavior? If I told you I wanted to poke a Lv1 mob and instantly become Lv105, would you humor me? Would you advocate for this change? Would you seriously, unironically, look logically at that suggestion and say to yourself, "that change would be good for the game?"

Restrictions are put in place because they're meant to guide the game along the healthiest path possible. I say "meant to" because obviously they don't always work as designed, and even those that do will need updates as the game grows and evolves. As such, you certainly have a right to challenge a restriction. But that's not how you're acting, here. What you're doing here is phrasing things in such a way that you try to invalidate my entire argument based solely on the point that I'm "advocating restrictions." Well, I'm sorry for caring enough about this game to want it to not descend into total anarchy. But unless you're seriously going to condense this behemoth of an debate into purely black-and-white terms, we're gonna have to draw the line somewhere.

Busaneck - Archosaur · March 2013

It took them not even 24 hours to take +12 dragon orbs out of the boutique when they thought there was more money to be had in them. But when players are having issues in actual game play to revert some code takes? who knows how long this will take them to fix...
Way to look out for the consumer or i mean your selves.

ovenusarmanio · March 2013

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

(And that's assuming anyone is even still reading this whole argument between you and I... first one to notice this message other than Wnb and me gets a cookie!)

I'll be taking that cookie now.

Miugre - Heavens Tear · March 2013

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I'll be taking that cookie now.

Well FINE then. *mails your BM on HT a Perfect Cookie* ;[

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear · March 2013

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well FINE then. *mails your BM on HT a Perfect Cookie* ;[

Ive been reading the whole thing up to this point. hope its entertaining

Murcas - Sanctuary · March 2013

I say level cap, please. Make it 75+, I do think that is fair.

CRYSTY - Sanctuary · March 2013

there is the meditation zone similar to forsaken world and battle of immortals games . Use it if you are lazy to kill mobs b:laugh my first time in there while i was sleeping, with 2 stones (2 hours) i leveled up my cleric from 67 and half to 68 . So i got half level to 68 in 2 hours with 2 normal stones. Use it and stop crying about fcc b:chuckle . Also when you do quests or unwined bhs use that Silkworm thingy to get more exp (to get that Silkworm, see where the world bosses or treasure bosses spawns, they drop lots of Martial Art Scrolls and trade them for Silkworms at the Martial Art npc in the main cities) .Since nov 2008, pwe added stuff and rewards to help leveling, important is to keep moving and seaching

,
Dont sit on your butt and wait for a miracle to level up from 40 to 100 instantly its not gonna happen b:chuckle
and btw once you leveled to 100 you wont play the game so often b:laugh , so we need you to keep populated the world map b:victory

GlenRoss - Archosaur · March 2013

CRYSTY - Sanctuary wrote: »

and btw once you leveled to 100 you wont play the game so often b:laugh , so we need you to keep populated the world map b:victory

I advise all of the newer players, "Find something that you really enjoy about this game that has nothing to do with leveling, because if that's all you enjoy, you'll very likely quit soon after reaching 100."

I've seen it time-and-time-again. A great many people who fc everyday are gone soon after they hit the magic number and their gratification is weeks away instead of hours.

lordhanzo · March 2013

Im confused about the idea of anyone wanted to get to 100+ immediately for whatever reason. If you think low-level & mid-level areas are dead and not worth to play with, why stop with Hypers in FC? Why not make a poll to PWE and the Dev so that when you create a character, it will instantly has 105 level already?

That way everyone can enjoy the end-game content because any others are dead.
And some ppl here just wants to argue because FCC seems to be their only income to make ingame that they have to defend it with their life so PWE wont take it away.

Sad.. sad community.. is this still a MMORPG?

Eoria - Harshlands · March 2013

lordhanzo wrote: »

Im confused about the idea of anyone wanted to get to 100+ immediately for whatever reason. If you think low-level & mid-level areas are dead and not worth to play with, why stop with Hypers in FC? Why not make a poll to PWE and the Dev so that when you create a character, it will instantly has 105 level already?

That way everyone can enjoy the end-game content because any others are dead.
And some ppl here just wants to argue because FCC seems to be their only income to make ingame that they have to defend it with their life so PWE wont take it away.

Sad.. sad community.. is this still a MMORPG?

Because some people do enjoy the early- and mid-game content (as barren as it is of rewards for the most part) as evidenced by this thread and we're not selfish enough to want to take that away from them.

lordhanzo · March 2013

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Because some people do enjoy the early- and mid-game content (as barren as it is of rewards for the most part) as evidenced by this thread and we're not selfish enough to want to take that away from them.

Sadly because the majority of this game all like to hit 100 instantly, there's really no fun left in low and mid game content. world map is empty, TT is empty.
So actually by granting Hypers FC, you do take all that away from us.

Personally, I blame the dev for creating Hypers, it was good when PW only has the Exp scroll.
And partly BHs too. Guess Im too adopted to asian style of MMO where heavy grinding and random meeting + communicating/partying/grinding spot battle with other players while doing it are common.

Western style just wants everything instant... at least thats what I see from this PWI

GlenRoss - Archosaur · March 2013

lordhanzo wrote: »

Western style just wants everything instant... at least thats what I see from this PWI

I'd like to bristle and defend western culture, but sadly, you're exactly right. This forum reflects the attitude of a huge part of western civilization.

kaleya · March 2013

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

I've discussed this with a lot of plevelers. Never once have I had the conversation without them claiming, "I know how to play my character." NEVER does ANY pleveler recognize what they don't know. I've fought alongside many of these same people and seen their claims of proficiency ring hollow. Logically, how can it not be of benefit to have faced more varied battle scenarios?

Even non-fc-babies lock in on certain skills and fail to realize their full potential. There's just no substitute for broad experience.

Eh... I dislike when people use absolutes in their argument. It's either 100% right or 100% wrong, and that definitely can be contended.

1) tl; dr: Questing means you become a skilled player? No.

I, for one, can speak from experience. My first character was around a month after PW opened, so I've been here a long time. I had 2 mains - both of which I quested all the way through around 80-90. Did I learn from quests? Not much. I learned which skills worked the best, but that can be done by anyone who can read. What I learned most from was by participating in "varied battle scenarios," AKA instances, particularly starting from BH79. Farming mobs aren't anything special, but a ton of mobs packed close together with a boss that debuffs like crazy - I definitely had to learn and adjust. Not only did I have myself to protect, but everyone else. I just don't think the same caliber of skill is taught at lower level quests. Eventually, I got into FF and learned a whole lotta heck more! I was definitely behind in the FF bandwagon, and had absolutely no clue what I was doing. Luckily, a few training FF squads came about, and that's where I actually learned how to work with a squad in an instance similar to those end-game. (This brings up an issue about the difference between the old time community and today's. The attitudes i mostly see now are people just trying to help themselves and not others. Thus, you can't blame one entirely for not knowing their class because there hasn't been anyone to help them. Do I think restricting FF hypers will resolve the problem? No, PWI has brought about these attitudes, and there will be a lot more needed than removing/restricting hypers in FF to fix this.)

2) tl;dr: Pleveling brings rise to unskilled players? No.

Eventually came time for a new character. I had a great grasp on the game, and for my playstyle I learned better from level 80+ than I did at lower levels. So, guess what? I plvled. I didn't want to spend time learning from an amateur when I could learn elsewhere. Did I lack some skills? Sure, at first. I knew what I did know and didn't know, and worked in order to fix those issues. For me, I'd feel terrible if I let my squad down because of my mistakes, so I try and learn from them every time. This toon is now my main, and pretty well-geared. And no, I don't cash shop. So plvling can make for well-skilled players.

My point is, you can't say every plvler does not recognize what they don't know. Some do, some don't. Everyone's standards of proficiency are different, and it may take longer for some than it does for others. Just because someone has a different playstyle than yours doesn't mean they lack ability. You just can't treat everyone as equally in competence, because a 4 year player might be better than a 3 month player, or maybe the other way around. Yes, there is a line between abusing the FF system and using it as a stepping to get to end-game. However, I have yet to meet a lot of plvlers who aren't willing to learn and better themselves.

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

If you only recognize drops and exp as rewards, I guess that's true. That is part of the disconnect in this debate: one side is looking at the quality of the game, the other side seems to be looking only at what tangible, instant reward they receive. I don't mean that as an insult to any participants, here. Just making an observation.

So you think doing hundreds of quest repetitively is quality? For me, not so much. Rather it's dreadful and boring. I'm not sure if you're pro-level restriction or against hypers entirely, but I'll assume that you agree that disabling hypers for lower levels will promote more of a community between them? Correct me if I'm wrong. But if this is true, then I'll have to disagree. There are more things needed than that in order to get back to the "older times." FF did not kill lower leveled quests/BHs/etc all by itself. There are multiple contributing factors... Times have changed PWI has updated itself in order to focus more on end-game.

Everyone says it's so easy to level. How will this promote a community? Regardless if you level to 75 in 2-3 weeks doing quests versus 1 week in FF (I'm sure these numbers are inaccurate, I'm not good with time), how will this make the world more occupied? People will be in and out quickly, and the reason why there was more of a community back in the days was because it was a lengthy road to get to end-game and people squaded together to get their quests done. There's no need for that now.

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

"Fair" is the most misused word in the English language. Unfair, means you are owed something that you're not getting. Unless there's a guarantee in the fine print of the PWI charter that says we will all get equal outcomes and conditions, there is no "fair" or "unfair" in this matter. If you're arguing equal opportunity, then the old-timers have a much more legitimate complaint. FC and and great many other opportunities were not available to them at all and they fought through circumstances that the newer people get to bypass, or race through, easily.

*sigh* Not the "because I was here longer than you means i should get more benefits" excuse. This is extremely selfish. One who has played longer doesn't have any more of a right than those who just started. I'm not debating this one with you as you don't see the difference between fair or unfair (it's more directed towards the crowd that agree with that statement), but I do not believe it is a legitimate complaint.

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more. My observation is that the quality of random groups has dropped dramatically, starting at the Age of Goons

I guess everyone's standards of quality is different. I don't see the huge negative impact in squadplay that you and several others see. Every squad I've been in, whether it be BH/FF/TT has been successful, maybe with few to no mistakes. I've died a whole lot less compared to the old days, so that's an improvement. You just can't blame FF as the reason for fail squads.

Thanks, you made several points that I thought were good to address! Nothing against you.

Disable hypers in frost, yes, no or LV restricted?

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