Disable hypers in frost, yes, no or LV restricted?

Mraochan - Lost City

Some people on LC got to 90 in the first few months of the game. I guess a bunch of no-lifers zhenning with miji's lol? I thought I was doing well to get to 30 in 12 days and 60 in 2 months. b:shocked

There was no autopath for the first year for god's sake. No frost, hypers, BH, PV, packs, etc. People got to 100 in 6 or 9 months, I'm pretty sure quite a few people did.

Now I haven't even thought about anything pve related in PW for 6 months or more, but I managed to get 20% xp in the past 2 days just checking out things I never knew existed. No frost and no BH. I'm not boasting, just saying.

There are more things to do in this game than ever before. It's easier for free players to level, it may very well be harder for them to farm coin, I haven't thought about that in-depth. But, how cool is it that they gave the untamed (neglected for a long time) a quest that's equivalent to an item in the cash shop that costs 29 gold? More like that please b:cute

Before you think I'm defending PW just because I love the new foxform and saved 29 gold with a 4 hour quest, stop, don't think that. There are plenty of bugs and glitches since day 1. I realize this. Of course things get screwed up with almost every patch. Patch 390 was a real bad one imo, I took a long break after that one.

I've taken 4 or 5 breaks from the game, each time I come back, I care less, and each time I come back, I enjoy the game more. That's what works well for me. But there are all types out there, in game and irl. The power hungry people want power, the free players want to play for free. The old players miss the magic of the early days, and the new players can only see what's in front of them here and now. /2centswalloftext

_JlN_ - Heavens Tear

I like having the option to choose between hyper leveling or leveling through quests, bhs and other means.

douknowjello

I don't believe in games taking things away from players once it's already been given, especially considering how long FCC has already been out. This is like shutting the barn door after the cow already got loose...totally pointless.

And besides, stopping FCC won't won't resolve the issue of idiots who don't know how to play their characters. The noobs will still find a way level. They always do.

Unless you want to start making this game require a mandatory IQ test...which I will fully support b:laugh

But then world chat will be awfully quiet b:avoid

kaleya

lordhanzo wrote: »

Im confused about the idea of anyone wanted to get to 100+ immediately for whatever reason. If you think low-level & mid-level areas are dead and not worth to play with, why stop with Hypers in FC?

It's human nature essentially. Doing something over and over repeatedly, time after time, again and again, day in day out, constantly, time and time again, regularly, continuously, and consistently, you get bored. (I hope my terrible representation of that worked!) There comes a time when you need something new and want to level to achieve more. This is accompanied with the fact that PWI focuses more on bringing new items for higher levels than they do for lower levels. If you want something better (maybe higher leveled gears), you aim for that goal, do what it takes to attain it. Hence why FF is very popular.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not going to listen to the "silent majority" argument. You could spam WC on every server for days and you still won't get a completely accurate measure of community opinion, or anywhere near it. And the reason for that is apathy... the same reason so many polls and actual elections IRL suffer this same problem. But hell, we're using a sample size of 1400 people already. That's more than a lot of IRL surveys get. What more do you want? Or do you just want the heavens to open and magically pour out thousands of pro-powerleveling people whom you seem to think are the silent majority?

I'm not seeing a problem here. What I'm seeing is a man who's not happy with the results, so suddenly the entire poll's not valid.

The comment regarding this being only forum community`s opinion was more of an afterthought. If there is something, which connects people against FC hypering its the "powerleveled noobs", plain and simple.

If we want to look for who consider it cheating we should only account for ones who want to forbid FC hypering completely, which was ~10% of votes. My problem was how your conclusion made absolutely no sense. If people consider FCing cheating, wouldnt they really vote for yes instead of level restricted? And still, the way you interpreted percentages was just idiotic - People can vote for option 1 for reason A, B, C, D, E and so on. Taking all who voted yes as thinking they voted for and believe in reason C really isnt true.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you're gonna wait for them to fix a problem perfectly the first time they try, nothing would ever get done around here. Our devs are simply not that competent, and you know it. :P But baby steps are better than no steps at all. If you think they're dragging their heels on the follow-up, don't complain to me about it - start a campaign to get it fixed.

I feel like they made it worse with the "fix". Assuming like they are going to do anything to balance non-gooners with gooners at this point would be quite naive. And really, I would of been happy with half decent fix, something which would of accounted gained advantage trough abusing a glitch. The only ones who goon nerf helped was the same gooners who abused it to gain their levels. Yeah, it was surely a step into the right direction.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well, seeing as you're so insistent on me acknowledging your experience with Frost powerleveling... I'll say this. If the vast majority of your clients are 75+, why do they need you to begin with? I've done FFs at 75+... sure it's hell in a handbasket, but that's how you learn your class. FF is completely doable with a 75-80 squad.

I don't mean to make a point here about their laziness at 75+, because I'm sure you have no qualms obliging them for the money. What I am saying is that, were powerleveling removed or restricted, your "overwhelming majority" would really be no worse off than they already are. It's just, y'know, they'd actually have to play the instance themselves.

That's why I haven't responded to the comments about your clientelle until now - because the vast majority of them (according to you) would not be impacted in any significant way. So are we talking about 75-80 people, or are we talking about newbies powerleveling from the lowgame? Which is it?

I would totally support hyper use starting at 75+, if it makes any difference to you.

For the same reason people use irl money to get their gears? Because its faster and easier than farming/doing it yourself. If hypers are set to 75+ it wont really affect me personally at this point, unless they release new classes, but I am always going to argue against pointless restrictions. And honestly, how would they need to change anything if we are only talking bout changing hypers to 75+? I can still go and clear it for them.

There are so few people who hyper as level 75- that I cant quite understand where all the prejudice towards powerlevelers comes from. Well, I have to be clearer, so few 75- players that arent alts of players who likely have multiple 100+ toons. But I really wouldnt find them eligible as FC babies.

As for doing FC as level ~75? I believe I was 74-76 when I started doing FCs when there were only few players on 85+ who could open later parts of the instance. FC isnt a difficult instance, it takes long on those levels though and getting to the good part w/o going trough the bad is quite appealing to some. Has little to do with difficulty for most.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well, I'm guess I'm not "most people," then. I can live with that. :P

As far as I'm concerned, bad players are totally relevant to the issue of Frost powerleveling (as I believe it creates more of them than would otherwise exist). However, I also believe that respecting the game's design and keeping parity with those who don't choose to abuse Frost is equally relevant.

Not touching the FC = noobs, I have given my opinion regarding the matter sufficient amount of times, just repeating what I said wouldnt get this discussion anywhere.

I have ask you, are hypers part of game`s design? Is PV part of game`s design? Is FC as an instance part of game`s design? All those are intended features, you can think combining some of those is abusing but I really cant understand that standpoint. It would be fairly easy to promote alternative ways for FC to level. It would require buffing rewards of questing and RBs quite a bit to make those appealing for players.

The point where hypers were on test run is long past and removing them at this point is slap on the face of new players. They wouldnt have the option to use them, which really wouldnt be fair.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

First of all, "unfair to everybody" really highlights how out of touch you are, here. Those now-900ish people don't seem to think it's unfair. Actually, they seem to think it's unfair to them that powerleveling exists. I'd be willing to bet they'd take issue with you calling the lack of hypers in Frost a "glitch," too. Again - nice framing, but I'd suggest you take off those rose-tinted glasses before they fog up and obscure your vision entirely. :P

I just found the time to re-read that Wikipedia page of yours in more detail. Sadly that pages takes more liberty with the definition of "strawman" than I've ever heard of. To me, in every contextual use I've ever heard in 10+ years since learning the term, "strawman" has referred to a pesron who goes into a debate willfully intending to lose it in hopes of helping the other side. Hence, the strawman is the person presenting the arguments, not the arguments themselves.

So if I overexaggerated your argument, then I overexaggerated your argument. It makes little difference when the original form of your argument can be refuted just as easily. The same is true of the vast majority of recurring points in the first thirty-odd pages, which I paraphrased in that one post. Had I laboriously gone through all those pages and quoted every individual pro-powereleveling poster, half my responses to them would have looked identical to each other... and indeed, identical to my responses to several of your points. I know you and I are clearly wall-of-text titans and all, but I don't think anyone wants to read that colossal display of redundancy.

(And that's assuming anyone is even still reading this whole argument between you and I... first one to notice this message other than Wnb and me gets a cookie!)

It really is just unfair towards everybody. There is always somebody who have had better position to utilize FC, making cancelling hypers unfair towards the last one. It really is bout having option to choose freely out of the same options majority of playerbase had for years.

As for hypers not working in FC being a glitch? It is the definition of a glitch. Something is working unlike it was intended by programmers. Hypers were allowed to work in FC in our version by intention, not by accident and thus them not working is a glitch, period.

Your definition of straw man is something I am hearing for the first time but I went and googled it - First 10 links defined straw man as I did, didnt bother looking further. Ultimately you really didnt know what straw man argument meant. As for why "exaggerating my arguments" is wrong? I havent said those exaggerations and thus you really arent arguing against me but something you created and yet all the way you act like I argued such things, which isnt true making it a lie. Relying on lies to make your point really makes your position seem quite weak.

When I jump in argument and dont feel like I want to argue against somebody`s standpoint I make general argument. I dont build straw mans and attack them, mock my opposition after I am finished by regarding said arguments predictable and telling them to come up with new ones.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Merging with below:

As I said above, I'm advocating both points. I don't particularly care whether I'm the only one advocating it or not (though I'm certainly not the only one who feels that way). If you're going to talk to me, you're going to hear this point.

What exactly is "funny" about that? You're absolutely forcing others to accommodate and legitimize this behavior. I'm quite tired of you trying to frame this discussion like you're some noble defender of rights and I and 65% of the forumers are trying to stomp you into the dirt. Nevermind that the only reason you even can frame it that way is because Frost abuse happens to be the status quo at the moment. Hence my earlier mention of role reversal; if powerleveling were such a good idea, then it would hold up under scrutiny whether you happened to be playing offense or defense on its behalf.

But since you seem to be implying that restrictions of any kind are a universal negative... where would you draw the line as to what's acceptable leveling behavior? If I told you I wanted to poke a Lv1 mob and instantly become Lv105, would you humor me? Would you advocate for this change? Would you seriously, unironically, look logically at that suggestion and say to yourself, "that change would be good for the game?"

Restrictions are put in place because they're meant to guide the game along the healthiest path possible. I say "meant to" because obviously they don't always work as designed, and even those that do will need updates as the game grows and evolves. As such, you certainly have a right to challenge a restriction. But that's not how you're acting, here. What you're doing here is phrasing things in such a way that you try to invalidate my entire argument based solely on the point that I'm "advocating restrictions." Well, I'm sorry for caring enough about this game to want it to not descend into total anarchy. But unless you're seriously going to condense this behemoth of an debate into purely black-and-white terms, we're gonna have to draw the line somewhere.

And I would ask you to keep it realistic, not the same **** where 65% of people agree FC hypers are cheating.

If restricting leveling options is such a good idea then restricting it to just questing would be a good idea? Heck, who needs questing, good old time grind is more than enough! And we get just as idiotic argument to the other end. I am against in restricting hypers as I feel the reasons majority wants to restrict them are misinformed. I also consider it unfair to keep something in game for years and then take it away so newer players cant have the option to use it if they want to.

I didnt invalidate it for that reason, I mocked it for hypocrisy and plain absurdness of you trying to pin some "forcing my way of fun for others". The game has grown and evolved from the grinding/questing you are refering as the only legit way of leveling. FC has been xp instance for years now, hypers have existed for years, calling it any test run you make it seem is really quite something. I still dont force anybody to hyper, only argue people are allowed to make that choice in the light of recent years.

Dakoo - Sanctuary

There is no reason why FCC should be made available to low-LV players whatsoever. I have seen firsthand what power leveling does to players and others they meet. When someone doesn't understand the basics of the basics, they have no business being at a level where others who earned their place end up trusting or relying on them and getting themselves killed because of it. I also hear the excuse "I lved this char to 100 already now I want this new one to get there fast, I know how to play this char" or some far less gracious variation thereof ("I'm bored of quests, my other class was LV 30, I know this class already, I just want to be my friend's LV, etc") far too often. The ability to gain massive amounts of experience within minutes and get from a low to high level quickly without even playing the game has been an obscene privilege brought about through abusing hypers with FCC, not some right for people to get to their desired level right away for ANY reason and certainly not an integral part of leveling up that players are helpless without. Already I am seeing previously ignored aspects of gameplay see use again, and people are already having fun. I see far more people complaining about the complainers than actually complaining about hypers not being in FCC. I'm going to support a lv req because that's what I've hoped for all this time, but if hypers stay out of FCC then so be it, I like the results so far. Whatever the case, may we finally stem the flow of high-lv noobs getting us all killed and mucking up the game we actually play and say goodbye to people making money off of them by selling them a gateway to mediocrity. With this, we can get back to helping one another properly.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear

kaleya wrote: »

It's human nature essentially. Doing something over and over repeatedly, time after time, again and again, day in day out, constantly, time and time again, regularly, continuously, and consistently, you get bored. (I hope my terrible representation of that worked!) There comes a time when you need something new and want to level to achieve more. This is accompanied with the fact that PWI focuses more on bringing new items for higher levels than they do for lower levels. If you want something better (maybe higher leveled gears), you aim for that goal, do what it takes to attain it. Hence why FF is very popular.

do you really think that getting bored with something is in our blood? that if something that has been done a thousand times no matter how different it may be that its human nature to get bored of it? im going to put it to you straight, it doesnt matter how many times we do something whether it be 100 times, 1000 times or 10000 times if we have to do it we will have to do it regardless whether or not that we like it. everyone has the capability to adapt if they want to and are flexible in doing so. If someone like a lvl70s player got bored of doing something that they have been doing for hrs, then yes they'll get bored but its their choice if they want to push through that boredom and continue on or just move onto something else for a while. whether it be a day, 2days, 3 days or a week. we always come back to a task later on if we're up to doing it.

If someone wants to use a piece of gear as a goal, then that is what will keep them going to reach that goal no matter how tiring or bored they get, if they are desperate to try and reach for it they will get there eventually but it shouldnt have to take a few hrs or maybe a day or two just to reach there without having to work toward that goal. everyone likes a challenge, but when it comes to the lazy and "flat out bored" players when they have reached their goal, tell me whats left once they reach their goal the fast way. all theyll be doing is begging and complaining bout how bored they are when it was their choice to become bored. a game that cant be enjoyed by lazy bum players is always going to be boring to them no matter what else you put in front of them. whether it be a new and improved gear set, or new challenges they will always find some way to squeak by it without much effort so if you think its human nature to be bored then you are dead wrong. a player who can use their imagination for the same thing by making it different each time, then it'll be more fun to them than the player who got to the top the quick, short and easy way.

kaleya wrote: »

Eh... I dislike when people use absolutes in their argument. It's either 100% right or 100% wrong, and that definitely can be contended.

now whos the one who is making redundant arguments here. you claim that you dont like ppl use absolutes in their arguments when you are making a rather absolute in your arguments also. not all the time things are 100% right or wrong, there are will be times when both sides of a discussion, argument or controversy will both be right or both be wrong. not all the time its as easy as black and white on a chalkboard.

1) tl; dr: Questing means you become a skilled player? No.

I, for one, can speak from experience. My first character was around a month after PW opened, so I've been here a long time. I had 2 mains - both of which I quested all the way through around 80-90. Did I learn from quests? Not much. I learned which skills worked the best, but that can be done by anyone who can read. What I learned most from was by participating in "varied battle scenarios," AKA instances, particularly starting from BH79. Farming mobs aren't anything special, but a ton of mobs packed close together with a boss that debuffs like crazy - I definitely had to learn and adjust. Not only did I have myself to protect, but everyone else. I just don't think the same caliber of skill is taught at lower level quests. Eventually, I got into FF and learned a whole lotta heck more! I was definitely behind in the FF bandwagon, and had absolutely no clue what I was doing. Luckily, a few training FF squads came about, and that's where I actually learned how to work with a squad in an instance similar to those end-game. (This brings up an issue about the difference between the old time community and today's. The attitudes i mostly see now are people just trying to help themselves and not others. Thus, you can't blame one entirely for not knowing their class because there hasn't been anyone to help them. Do I think restricting FF hypers will resolve the problem? No, PWI has brought about these attitudes, and there will be a lot more needed than removing/restricting hypers in FF to fix this.)

let me answer that question, does doing quests making a player skilled? maybe yes and maybe no its all how each player learns the basics. you could use this point as an example for someone to get into powerlvling cause its their way of learning. but let me tell you something from my experience of being on here the last 3yrs+. ever since powerlvling was made by the pwi players, it has cause more squad wipes and fails than anyone could count. you say you didnt learn much from quests was it cause you didnt want to or you couldnt. if you didnt want to, then i pity you for not learning and seeing the better things of the game rather than inside a constant rerun of the same instance.

you also say you dont like doing the same thing over and over again, day to day, month to month then tell me why you keep on doing the same bosses, kill the same mobs in 1 instance when theres like thousands of mobs in the open world. anyone can learn in an instance besides making it the same one day in and day out. you talk bout how you see the attitudes of players helping themselves more than others, that is the result of ppl wanting power over sacrifice. would restricting hypers in FF eliminate the problem? no ofc not. but it would put it a stop or slow it down by alot.

2) tl;dr: Pleveling brings rise to unskilled players? No.

Eventually came time for a new character. I had a great grasp on the game, and for my playstyle I learned better from level 80+ than I did at lower levels. So, guess what? I plvled. I didn't want to spend time learning from an amateur when I could learn elsewhere. Did I lack some skills? Sure, at first. I knew what I did know and didn't know, and worked in order to fix those issues. For me, I'd feel terrible if I let my squad down because of my mistakes, so I try and learn from them every time. This toon is now my main, and pretty well-geared. And no, I don't cash shop. So plvling can make for well-skilled players.

sounds like you like making money from other players laziness and stupidity. Plus one can learn more from the lower lvls than they can from running an instance 100 times.

My point is, you can't say every plvler does not recognize what they don't know. Some do, some don't. Everyone's standards of proficiency are different, and it may take longer for some than it does for others. Just because someone has a different playstyle than yours doesn't mean they lack ability. You just can't treat everyone as equally in competence, because a 4 year player might be better than a 3 month player, or maybe the other way around. Yes, there is a line between abusing the FF system and using it as a stepping to get to end-game. However, I have yet to meet a lot of plvlers who aren't willing to learn and better themselves.

alot of what you said here i agree with, but FF shouldnt be the stepping stone to end game. players can find alot of more exciting things in the low to mid lvls than they can at end game. plus why do players have to rush to the end when its just that "THE END." end game is not what makes the beginning, the end is the end no matter how you may justify it. whether it be the last page of a book or the last lvl of a game. once your done your done no ifs, ands or buts.

So you think doing hundreds of quest repetitively is quality? For me, not so much. Rather it's dreadful and boring. I'm not sure if you're pro-level restriction or against hypers entirely, but I'll assume that you agree that disabling hypers for lower levels will promote more of a community between them? Correct me if I'm wrong. But if this is true, then I'll have to disagree. There are more things needed than that in order to get back to the "older times." FF did not kill lower leveled quests/BHs/etc all by itself. There are multiple contributing factors... Times have changed PWI has updated itself in order to focus more on end-game.

If doing hundreds of repeditive quests is boring and dreadful, how will it feel once you reach end game and your back to being bored? since it seems like you have a narrow view on this whole thing, you should go take a look around and see what really goes on around you. there might be more things that need to be changed before we can get back to the older times true, but that does need to start by putting a cap lvl limit on FF and hypers. plus FF did kill alot of the lower lvl content even though it wasnt the only thing that did it and yes there are other contributing factors that id say that needs to be addressed. Have times changed? yes ofc but not for the better and ofc pwi has updated itself but it also has updated alot of the lower to mid lvl content too. if players would just go through those lvls they might get a surprising factor out of it.

Everyone says it's so easy to level. How will this promote a community? Regardless if you level to 75 in 2-3 weeks doing quests versus 1 week in FF (I'm sure these numbers are inaccurate, I'm not good with time), how will this make the world more occupied? People will be in and out quickly, and the reason why there was more of a community back in the days was because it was a lengthy road to get to end-game and people squaded together to get their quests done. There's no need for that now.

There is plenty need for ppl to squad together to get quests and things done. just because you can get to lvl 75 in just a few weeks doesnt mean that doing them alone will make players stay. what makes em stay is the capability for them to be able to make friends along that lengthy road. if they always have to end up doing the lengthy road alone, then no wonder its no fun. having to spend countless hrs on doing quests alone is not whats going to make em stay, what will is the chance to have them join with other players of the same average lvl so they can progress together. sounds like another classic selfish blunder.

*sigh* Not the "because I was here longer than you means i should get more benefits" excuse. This is extremely selfish. One who has played longer doesn't have any more of a right than those who just started. I'm not debating this one with you as you don't see the difference between fair or unfair (it's more directed towards the crowd that agree with that statement), but I do not believe it is a legitimate complaint.

we're not saying that players who do end up staying here the longest should get some sort of special treatment or "benefits". plus i agree that its a selfish thing if some veteran player thinks that they can get the hot seat just cause of how loyal or dedicated he/shes been over the years. i will say that by limiting the out of control use of FF will bring the community to a much more lively environment than having it a lonely and stuck up playerbase.

I guess everyone's standards of quality is different. I don't see the huge negative impact in squadplay that you and several others see. Every squad I've been in, whether it be BH/FF/TT has been successful, maybe with few to no mistakes. I've died a whole lot less compared to the old days, so that's an improvement. You just can't blame FF as the reason for fail squads.

Just because you've hardly to rarely died in bh,ff or tt is not cause of the few mistakes, but it maybe cause you've been rather lucky with the squads that you make or join. Plus i do see a huge negative impact that FF and the hypers have caused to the game alone. it has caused more ppl to become power hungry, self preservation and also the increase of greed. So yes i can blame FF for alot to most of the fail squads that we get into. if you havent been in a fail squad before try looking for a random bh squad and see how long and how far you get with em. Fail squads only make the run take longer stead of having a squad work together to accomplish something far greater than each individual.

Thanks, you made several points that I thought were good to address! Nothing against you.

replies in blue

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver

Hmm this is what i have seen of late since the update regarding (Hypers not working in FC)

1, More BH Squad call outs (Below 100's) Even for BH II's for the 100's.

2, Hyper Noobs being recognized and the skillful ones that know they A game.

3, Bh 69 making and breaking the clerics

4, Legendary Molds and TT60-80 equipment being of worth again.

5, RB Alpha Call out's!

6, MORE ppl around the map questing and grinding and such,

7, More PV squad call outs of all level ranges

My Comment:
This is the beginning of a Great Future WAHAHAHAb:laugh,
CAUSE I WAS IN A FULL WS SQUAD WHERE THE FULL R9 2n Cast BM with 14k hp COULDN'T SOLO WOOD!
>.<
THAT IS THE PRIME EXAMPLE OF RESULTS FROM FC HYPER BABIES!

Crixxix - Raging Tide

Wow... things must be on fire... all I see is mass amounts of flaming b:surrender

soundslegit

Not everyone plays their class badly because of inexperience or stupidity. I was once in a bh squad with an archer who BOAed on every boss. I finally whispered to him that its a waste of sparks and he said I know, I just like the way it looks.

Then there are the people who got bad advice from a high level they worship and now won't listen to anything you say on the subject. Or even worse, their boyfriend told them to do it that way.

And just generally there are people who are just having fun on the weekend and don't take the whole thing so seriously. Imagine that, they think this is just a game.

VKnightV - Lost City

soundslegit wrote: »

Not everyone plays their class badly because of inexperience or stupidity. I was once in a bh squad with an archer who BOAed on every boss. I finally whispered to him that its a waste of sparks and he said I know, I just like the way it looks.

Then there are the people who got bad advice from a high level they worship and now won't listen to anything you say on the subject. Or even worse, their boyfriend told them to do it that way.

And just generally there are people who are just having fun on the weekend and don't take the whole thing so seriously. Imagine that, they think this is just a game.

does boa get you killed no then your not really saying he is a bad player just his taste of tactic is bad.

that is like saying a bm who refuse to use fist is bad cos he is missing the dps of his toon when in reality all he is doing is playing his toon the way he likes it.

as long as nobady dies aka bad pull lure mobs and dont agro all of them or say he can tank when he cant he have the right to play how he wants.

if you dont like his way of playing dont party with him but he is not a bad player just cos you disagree with his tactics.

ivory2011

juggalotiny wrote: »

in the end no matter what we say or do its what will make pwi more money that will happen. Its all about the all mighty dollar. This is and always will be pay to win in pwi. another useless instance just like vana. After nw came out it made vana not worth running. I rember when the cannys were worth more then the gem drops outa chest. But it dont make pwi money anymore. With the flood of vana gear it drives more to spend the money to get r9. Yay for the Dollar

b:chuckle You Said Honey That All They Care About Is The All Might Dollar , But i Have to say i wish Fcc come's back even with a lv cap on its gave u something to work for TeeHee . Like You They only Care the Money is ..Now im going to :shutup

ivory2011

juggalotiny wrote: »

in the end no matter what we say or do its what will make pwi more money that will happen. Its all about the all mighty dollar. This is and always will be pay to win in pwi. another useless instance just like vana. After nw came out it made vana not worth running. I rember when the cannys were worth more then the gem drops outa chest. But it dont make pwi money anymore. With the flood of vana gear it drives more to spend the money to get r9. Yay for the Dollar

b:chuckle You Said Honey That All They Care About Is The All Might Dollar , But i Have to say i wish Fcc come's back even with a lv cap on its gave u something to work for TeeHee . Like You They only Care the Money is ..Now im going to b:shutup Tc all Love QueenDara

VKnightV - Lost City

kaleya wrote: »

Eh... I dislike when people use absolutes in their argument. It's either 100% right or 100% wrong, and that definitely can be contended.

1) tl; dr: Questing means you become a skilled player? No.

I, for one, can speak from experience. My first character was around a month after PW opened, so I've been here a long time. I had 2 mains - both of which I quested all the way through around 80-90. Did I learn from quests? Not much. I learned which skills worked the best, but that can be done by anyone who can read. What I learned most from was by participating in "varied battle scenarios," AKA instances, particularly starting from BH79. Farming mobs aren't anything special, but a ton of mobs packed close together with a boss that debuffs like crazy - I definitely had to learn and adjust. Not only did I have myself to protect, but everyone else. I just don't think the same caliber of skill is taught at lower level quests. Eventually, I got into FF and learned a whole lotta heck more! I was definitely behind in the FF bandwagon, and had absolutely no clue what I was doing. Luckily, a few training FF squads came about, and that's where I actually learned how to work with a squad in an instance similar to those end-game. (This brings up an issue about the difference between the old time community and today's. The attitudes i mostly see now are people just trying to help themselves and not others. Thus, you can't blame one entirely for not knowing their class because there hasn't been anyone to help them. Do I think restricting FF hypers will resolve the problem? No, PWI has brought about these attitudes, and there will be a lot more needed than removing/restricting hypers in FF to fix this.)

2) tl;dr: Pleveling brings rise to unskilled players? No.

Eventually came time for a new character. I had a great grasp on the game, and for my playstyle I learned better from level 80+ than I did at lower levels. So, guess what? I plvled. I didn't want to spend time learning from an amateur when I could learn elsewhere. Did I lack some skills? Sure, at first. I knew what I did know and didn't know, and worked in order to fix those issues. For me, I'd feel terrible if I let my squad down because of my mistakes, so I try and learn from them every time. This toon is now my main, and pretty well-geared. And no, I don't cash shop. So plvling can make for well-skilled players.

My point is, you can't say every plvler does not recognize what they don't know. Some do, some don't. Everyone's standards of proficiency are different, and it may take longer for some than it does for others. Just because someone has a different playstyle than yours doesn't mean they lack ability. You just can't treat everyone as equally in competence, because a 4 year player might be better than a 3 month player, or maybe the other way around. Yes, there is a line between abusing the FF system and using it as a stepping to get to end-game. However, I have yet to meet a lot of plvlers who aren't willing to learn and better themselves.



So you think doing hundreds of quest repetitively is quality? For me, not so much. Rather it's dreadful and boring. I'm not sure if you're pro-level restriction or against hypers entirely, but I'll assume that you agree that disabling hypers for lower levels will promote more of a community between them? Correct me if I'm wrong. But if this is true, then I'll have to disagree. There are more things needed than that in order to get back to the "older times." FF did not kill lower leveled quests/BHs/etc all by itself. There are multiple contributing factors... Times have changed PWI has updated itself in order to focus more on end-game.

Everyone says it's so easy to level. How will this promote a community? Regardless if you level to 75 in 2-3 weeks doing quests versus 1 week in FF (I'm sure these numbers are inaccurate, I'm not good with time), how will this make the world more occupied? People will be in and out quickly, and the reason why there was more of a community back in the days was because it was a lengthy road to get to end-game and people squaded together to get their quests done. There's no need for that now.



*sigh* Not the "because I was here longer than you means i should get more benefits" excuse. This is extremely selfish. One who has played longer doesn't have any more of a right than those who just started. I'm not debating this one with you as you don't see the difference between fair or unfair (it's more directed towards the crowd that agree with that statement), but I do not believe it is a legitimate complaint.



I guess everyone's standards of quality is different. I don't see the huge negative impact in squadplay that you and several others see. Every squad I've been in, whether it be BH/FF/TT has been successful, maybe with few to no mistakes. I've died a whole lot less compared to the old days, so that's an improvement. You just can't blame FF as the reason for fail squads.

Thanks, you made several points that I thought were good to address! Nothing against you.

so wait you were oonce one of those bad plver who made tons of mistakes did not have the skill to do ur job but now when ur fully geared and all ur feeling pro.

one question dont you think those mistakes you did in the past are one of those same mistakes ppl hate plver for.

more plver like you who have no clue what to do get party wipes and all in all that is why we are here.

sorry but if did not do 39-51-59 prior to frost then ofc you only soloed but that is not mistake of the game but ur own.

the only thing you dont learn from those is pulling otherwise those instances fb bh will do just the trick to teach the dinamic of the game.

remember we are here cos of plver like you who only when reach lv100 start to learn party dinamic.

soundslegit

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

does boa get you killed no then your not really saying he is a bad player just his taste of tactic is bad.

that is like saying a bm who refuse to use fist is bad cos he is missing the dps of his toon when in reality all he is doing is playing his toon the way he likes it.

as long as nobady dies aka bad pull lure mobs and dont agro all of them or say he can tank when he cant he have the right to play how he wants.

if you dont like his way of playing dont party with him but he is not a bad player just cos you disagree with his tactics.

Yu bad inglish.

Falun - Archosaur

There is way to much drama around this tbh.
the only difference is how people see it. some like it and some don`t but who could really judge it properly?
the way i see it is like this:

Atm the game is more available to new players hence more instances getting used.
Learning their classes.
Building up their goals like the older players used to.
This list can go on forever so i`m not gonna make a fuzz about it.

There are also other perspectives to look at when it comes to an instance that is such a big part of the game, honestly how many new people is there these days? most of them are just alts...
There is two ways people would see this, to many new people who don`t know their class becomes 100+ to fast. The other is that people reach a higher level and then buy gold or rank gear which in terms helps PWI.

There is also the economy to take a look at, some will sell it for a small amount of coins while others do it for free to help.

One question i have is, can you live without FC when you want to make an alt and spend a large amount of your time just to reach 100+?

Personally i am in favor for the level restriction of hypers but this would drastically affect people who can`t spend to much time into the game that in the end would turn out to be big spenders for PWI.

just how i see it atm.

Crixxix - Raging Tide

soundslegit wrote: »

Not everyone plays their class badly because of inexperience or stupidity. I was once in a bh squad with an archer who BOAed on every boss. I finally whispered to him that its a waste of sparks and he said I know, I just like the way it looks.

Then there are the people who got bad advice from a high level they worship and now won't listen to anything you say on the subject. Or even worse, their boyfriend told them to do it that way.

And just generally there are people who are just having fun on the weekend and don't take the whole thing so seriously. Imagine that, they think this is just a game.

Wow. Gratz man. Not only the first post that's easy to read that I've seen on this thread in awhile, but sensible too. Gotta admit that it's really quite refreshing to see another player believe in these things. I'm not the kind of guy that normally asks for specifics for class when WC'ing for BH. Take today's Aba for instance. I did specifically ask for a BM, only cuz I absolutely hate Peach. The squad did consist of, however, 2 barbs (myself being 1 of them), a veno, a bm, a sin, and a seeker.

What do ya know? No healers. Why? Because there is no one set of tactics to run an instance. Bad players will be bad players, and this is what I define "noob" as. Not the new players, not the ones that hyper FC, because "FC babies" can, occasionally turn out really pro.

Granted, not all of the FC babies will be top notch. Why you ask? Because they lack a key mental function called "Ingenuity". Sometimes it's not good to reinvent the wheel. But in this case, why not let people experiment in different squad tactics? Is it so bad if the squad wipes (provided, don't experiment in delta, tends to end badly). Look at all the people that rage if a squad wipes in Warsong. I gotta admit, nothing gets under my skin more than someone who rages about a squad wipe here. You lose no exp, the squad can go right back to what they were doing.

I've personally been raged on for trying out human form skills on BH Snake. Not even a FWS, just the single BH boss. Squad wiped, so what?

I think everyone takes this game as seriously as if it were a gaming tournament for cash or something, because I've never seen so many people whine, cry, QQ, rage, troll, whatever you wanna call all this negative ****. It's a game, treat it as such.

Again, I'd like to thank soundslegit for the awesome post, first one that I saw after logging on for the morning. Hope the rest of my day goes just as well.

- Crix

Kniraven - Lost City

I know literally hundreds of people who have never done twilight temple, have no idea what warsoul tournament is, have no idea what city of abominations is, have no idea what half the mold armors are, have never done GV as anything more than a BH, have never gotten a friendship crystal, don't know how to craft gear, and/or are level 102+ with gear for a 7x.

Way to skip the game.
No point even playing an MMO at that point

VKnightV - Lost City

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

I know literally hundreds of people who have never done twilight temple, have no idea what warsoul tournament is, have no idea what city of abominations is, have no idea what half the mold armors are, have never done GV as anything more than a BH, have never gotten a friendship crystal, don't know how to craft gear, and/or are level 102+ with gear for a 7x.

Way to skip the game.
No point even playing an MMO at that point

+1


ugh they are 102+ zombies run b:shocked

jehosheba

I vote no because I lvled like 3 characters the normal way and the rest I powerlvled cause I didnt feel like spending so many months again to lvl up a character with normal quests. After a while its really annoying to repeat the process of lvling up the normal way BUT when I powerlvl I take time to learn my character with lowlvl bh's and i do some side quests. Funny how I have been getting compliments on how well I play my toons while they dont even know some of them are partially powerlvled. And apparently most people think that people who powerlvl cant play, how come I can?? Bottom line is that learning to play your toon has nothing to do with powerlvling, it has to do with actually taking time and putting effort into learning how to play a certain class. I understand why people want a lvl restriction, having been into fc squads with people that have no idea how to play their class but for the people that have powerlvled or partial powerlvled their toons and take the time to actually learn their class, they will be screwed when fc becomes lvl restricted. b:infuriated

WnbTank - Archosaur

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

I know literally hundreds of people who have never done twilight temple, have no idea what warsoul tournament is, have no idea what city of abominations is, have no idea what half the mold armors are, have never done GV as anything more than a BH, have never gotten a friendship crystal, don't know how to craft gear, and/or are level 102+ with gear for a 7x.

Way to skip the game.
No point even playing an MMO at that point

I`m sure you tried to help those hundreds of players by educating and/or showing those things to them as simply hearing of people who dont know/explore those parts of content traumatize good old timers like you?

If somebody levels barb far enough to learn true form and afterwards spends his time, day after day, running around Lost as a white tiger, how does that affect your gaming experience?

I also love it when people define how item A isnt worth it for somebody they dont know at all. Mind defining fun while your at it, I cant take the risk of having fun the wrong way.

Ammarantha - Lost City

well, I was like shocked. I made up sin optimized to help my friends in there and it got disabled, but even as I voted for lv restriction.

In my oppinion we shouldnt bind it to lvl restriction, more use would be a cultivation bounding. So many 8x ppl demand even free runs and dont even have a 59 skill...

SO if possible we should bind it on culti79+ can only enter instance

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

Isn't it a bit ironic that people complain about questing is repetitive and boring, and no money to be made, but they instead, they stand idle in Snowy, waiting for heads, or mobs/boss/heads offered at their level range, spending 200k to 350k, over and over and over again?

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear

kaleya wrote: »

Your opinion isn't knowledgeable because you put all the blame on these so called "plvled noobs." I assure you, there are just as many "veteran players" who do nothing for other players. You can't just generalize a whole group of people because you're butthurt.

Guess i can give ya credit for one thing, that is not all players who are noobs have plvled their way but i still think that they must of done some plvling in FF before they started doing questing for themselves. Plus flaming and naming wont help you with your argument cause it only makes the argument that much more weaker and pathetic.

Yet again, you put words in my mouth. Did I say anything about taking people's fun away? No. I said you're taking away people's ability to level OR make profit. How is leveling yourself in FF cheating? Just because people don't want to spend repetitive amounts of time doing the same quests over and over again is cheating? Just because people pay with their own money to level is cheating? No, not even.. PWI doesn't gain many new players anyways, and even if they do, the "plvled noobs" aren't the ones making it hard for them to stay. It's a much bigger issue than that, such as the economy etc., so you can't blame them. And yes, you've insulted me several times or made innuendos. If you try and deny that, then so be it. You look foolish, not me.

you didnt have to say anything bout taking ppls fun away, you said it yourself. Plus you show it by claiming that we are taking ppls ability to lvl and make profit away. we're not taking ppls ability to lvl away, but rather the ability to prevent more frost abuse if the game is to ever survive the future. Abusing one instance such as FF is a form of cheating whether or not its regarded as cheating by a rule book.

you also claim that players dont want to spend repeditive amounts of time doing the same quests over and over again how does that justify doing the same to one instance? Its not because ppl are using their own in game or rl money to lvl is a form a cheating, but rather those that abuse frost with it. the reason why pwi isnt gaining any new players is cause the lower lvls are barren and deserted and they dont want to be doing quests all the way to 100 on their own plus the economy doesnt help it much either when it takes so much effort and time to make enough coin just to have enough for their repair and potion bills. I havent insulted you at all, but rather just making it plain and clear that you dont seem to get the idea since your mind is totally fogged over by the whole notion of FF. if anyone who has been insulting is you pal. so your the foolish one here not me, by making a bunch of false arguments that only makes it that much weaker and total nonsense.


Again, you don't read and make assumptions. I've began to lost count on how many statements you assert, and then contradict yourself later. I've made notice several times that I'm not a powerleveler.. The reason I say your egotistical is because you make claims without proof, and when someone argues against your opinion, you can only say "i'm right, you're wrong, go ragequit." Without having evidence to back your statements, anything and everything you say is just biased ****. At least you admit that you are somewhat stupid, though. That's one thing we both agree on.

If your not a powerlvler, then how come did you say that you were in another statement on another reply? i think your the one who is egotistical here cause you yourself has no proof whatsoever. just cause someone argues against my opinion doesnt mean that im always 100% right all the time, if i was then id know everything which i dont. sounds like you dont have much evidence either to back up your claims as well so all you been doing is nothing more than name calling me for something im saying that would make the game alive again. plus i didnt admit to being stupid, but rather the opposite. im not always walking into stupid if you would not be so butthurt yourself.

I don't see how I got my feelings hurt? Just because I argue against your claims makes me a cry baby? LOGIC. P.S., you're butthurt for quote telling me I'm a "poor excuse" who should "ragequit" and "soak myself in the river." You're not even worth time anymore.

least we both agree with something, is that your also not worth my time anymore either and i can see why you got your feelings hurt just cause of the glitch that caused FF to be shut down with the powerlvling and now you cant seem to make a profit which you have been doing. get a life would ya, theres more ways to make profit than just running the FF instance for players who want to abuse frost.

Now, regarding to the issue at hand, I'm not wholeheartedly against putting a level restriction for hypers in FF. I just don't see how it could combat what people are insinuating are caused by "plvled noobs." The damage is done, it'll always be there. The majority of the playerbase is not made up of new players.. Most of them have high level toons, and if they had to choose between leveling with quests all over again versus player their higher leveled toons that have a wider varierty of things to do, I'm pretty sure they'd pick the higher leveled route.

this i can agree on mostly, but just cause most players have high lvl toons already doesnt mean that they should take the easy road the 2nd time around with an alt. the high lvls dont have a wide variety of things to do just the opposite, they have less variety at high lvl than they do at lower lvls. Plus im sure the reason why they piced the higher lvl route was not cause of the mundane questing but rather to get somewhere that will satisfy them. the high lvls and end game itself is boring cause once you have completing everything theres nothing for them to do except stand around like a bunch of dummies waiting for the next nw or tw to arrive.

_Remu - Raging Tide

It should be level restricted, it's not that hard to get to 85 now with the updated lowbie quests j/s b:surrender

Apostasy - Raging Tide

Again, stop BS'ing your "opinions" :

How do you people that want to keep fc hypered powerleveling,

suggest the map from the beginning cities through morai

get re-populated?

If you cant answer this, game is dead. b:bye

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver

v4liance wrote: »

FCC issue
- Devs are going to reverse this change, thereby re-enabling hyper-exp in FCC, so hopefully we'll have this fixed with our next maintenance.
- Regarding alternative "solutions," such as a level cap - I think we need to continue discussing this over a longer period of time. But for now, we're going to try to revert this change ASAP and re-enable hyper exp in FCC.
- Val

How in the name of justice(player's database opinions aka poll on top of page) are we going to have that place reverted after this poll? That's just seriously messed up!

Yes: 150
No: 543
Level Restriction: 802

Ok so I get it, they might initiate a new level restriction, but the overwhelming anti-FC baby option votes(no/level restriction) add up to 1345 all together, so why are we having it restored, and not kept non-hyperable until then?

Eoria - Harshlands

Apostasy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Again, stop BS'ing your "opinions" :

How do you people that want to keep fc hypered powerleveling,

suggest the map from the beginning cities through morai

get re-populated?

If you cant answer this, game is dead. b:bye

You would have to take every single leveling/farming instance out of the game to achieve that. No FC, no TT, no Nirvana (okay, it's dead, but it still counted before NW), no CoA, no PV. I'm sure you don't want all of those instances disabled.

daryskin

I like it that they put ff back to the norm and put a lvl cap on it this way PPl with any toon weather 2 or more can get used to doing the quest and LEARNING there skills that are needed instead of Power Leveling and been a noob when ask to use a skill and they never heard of it so the cap at lvl 85 is perfect this way u can learn ur skills etc so by the time u get to lvl 85 u know ur skills instead a been a dumbass and asking what is that. and this way the when ur 85 and over and it is hard to get those lvls like 100 + u can hyper to help u strive to get the lvl that u would like to be. So I am Game for the lvl cap and hopw they put PWI back to the orginal like it use to be for example DQ mats put them as they were or give them some money lvl instead of one. This way PWI may get the ppl that they lost due to the Stupid changes that is Killing PWI

Miugre - Heavens Tear

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

The comment regarding this being only forum community`s opinion was more of an afterthought. If there is something, which connects people against FC hypering its the "powerleveled noobs", plain and simple.

If we want to look for who consider it cheating we should only account for ones who want to forbid FC hypering completely, which was ~10% of votes. My problem was how your conclusion made absolutely no sense. If people consider FCing cheating, wouldnt they really vote for yes instead of level restricted? And still, the way you interpreted percentages was just idiotic - People can vote for option 1 for reason A, B, C, D, E and so on. Taking all who voted yes as thinking they voted for and believe in reason C really isnt true.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

And I would ask you to keep it realistic, not the same **** where 65% of people agree FC hypers are cheating.

Let me be perfectly clear, then: 10% of people consider hypering in Frost at all to be cheating. 53% consider hypering above a certain level (75, if we are to use your poll) to be cheating. It stands to reason that both groups would consider hypering above a certain level to be cheating.

In fairness, we use the term "powerleveling" instead of "powerleveling above a certain level" in this thread just to save space, so obviously that would cause some confusion.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I feel like they made it worse with the "fix". Assuming like they are going to do anything to balance non-gooners with gooners at this point would be quite naive. And really, I would of been happy with half decent fix, something which would of accounted gained advantage trough abusing a glitch. The only ones who goon nerf helped was the same gooners who abused it to gain their levels. Yeah, it was surely a step into the right direction.

You still haven't answered my basic point here. I know you're not happy with the fix. You've already said that. But there still needed to be one. If you can't refute me on this point, I'm not going to listen to this anymore.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

For the same reason people use irl money to get their gears? Because its faster and easier than farming/doing it yourself. If hypers are set to 75+ it wont really affect me personally at this point, unless they release new classes, but I am always going to argue against pointless restrictions. And honestly, how would they need to change anything if we are only talking bout changing hypers to 75+? I can still go and clear it for them.

There are so few people who hyper as level 75- that I cant quite understand where all the prejudice towards powerlevelers comes from. Well, I have to be clearer, so few 75- players that arent alts of players who likely have multiple 100+ toons. But I really wouldnt find them eligible as FC babies.

As for doing FC as level ~75? I believe I was 74-76 when I started doing FCs when there were only few players on 85+ who could open later parts of the instance. FC isnt a difficult instance, it takes long on those levels though and getting to the good part w/o going trough the bad is quite appealing to some. Has little to do with difficulty for most.

You're saying two different things here. If so much of your clientele is 75+ and we restrict hyper use to 75, what's the problem? Or are you telling me that Lv1 powerlevel buyers don't hyper the big room? XD

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I have ask you, are hypers part of game`s design? Is PV part of game`s design? Is FC as an instance part of game`s design? All those are intended features, you can think combining some of those is abusing but I really cant understand that standpoint. It would be fairly easy to promote alternative ways for FC to level. It would require buffing rewards of questing and RBs quite a bit to make those appealing for players.

The point where hypers were on test run is long past and removing them at this point is slap on the face of new players. They wouldnt have the option to use them, which really wouldnt be fair.

Merging:

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

It really is just unfair towards everybody. There is always somebody who have had better position to utilize FC, making cancelling hypers unfair towards the last one. It really is bout having option to choose freely out of the same options majority of playerbase had for years.

You cannot insist on keeping every existing rule and system just because someone uses it. Things change and people adapt.

Now I suppose it's my turn to link a Wikipedia article. I assume you're familiar with the term, Grandfather Clause? Because that's what the gooners essentially got... and should we end up restricting Frost hypering, those who have already powerleveled will be treated in a very similar manner (if not even more leniently, because the GMs actually did make empty threats on punishing gooners which really never materialized... I guarantee you they won't do that for all those who powerleveled).

If you want to talk about what's "fair" to new players, well, you could accomplish that by rolling back any levels previously gained via Frost powerleveling... but I figured you'd find that unacceptable, so I didn't bring it up. *shrug* But as long as that's the case, you're going to have to accept that not everything is going to seem "fair" in order to make progress on fixing this game. Grandfather clauses, by definition, aren't designed to be "fair" to the newbies. They're designed to be a compromise.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

As for hypers not working in FC being a glitch? It is the definition of a glitch. Something is working unlike it was intended by programmers. Hypers were allowed to work in FC in our version by intention, not by accident and thus them not working is a glitch, period.

Something is working unlike it normally works, and the change wasn't intended. So yes, technically speaking you are correct. I was referring to the 65% taking issue with you on this less in the vein of them being technically correct in doing so, and more in the vein of them taking issue with you speaking for everyone when you have no business doing so. I apologize for the unclear wording.

And just to preempt this point that a few others have made: no, people aren't just "suddenly" complaining about Frost powerleveling. We've been complaining about it off and on for years, ever since its potential for abuse was first realized. Is it clogging up the first page of General? Not until this week, no. But that's not because we didn't think it was an issue... it's because we knew damn well that it would all fall on deaf ears.

So if you want to blame the 65% for anything, blame us for taking advantage of a fortuitious event which temporarily put all eyes on Frost, in order to revive a debate which never reached a satisfactory conclusion to begin with. So maybe you can accuse us of... to throw out a strange phrase here... "opportunistic soapboxing?" Can't speak for others, but I can live with that accusation. :P

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Your definition of straw man is something I am hearing for the first time but I went and googled it - First 10 links defined straw man as I did, didnt bother looking further. Ultimately you really didnt know what straw man argument meant. As for why "exaggerating my arguments" is wrong? I havent said those exaggerations and thus you really arent arguing against me but something you created and yet all the way you act like I argued such things, which isnt true making it a lie. Relying on lies to make your point really makes your position seem quite weak.

Again, you're not listening. I said it makes no difference when your argument in its original form can be refuted in the same manner with the same level of success.

Looking back a few posts (because I'd honestly forgotten what this portion of the argument was about, now)... I employed some basic sarcasm in response to your mention of another game and how you thought its system was better than ours. I frankly didn't feel like replying to that directly because I don't feel like that game's system has any relevance to ours. So I instead asked why you would care to stay here if you clearly prefer that game. As you can see, our discussion on that subtopic has proceeded (to the extent that I cared to proceed with it, which was "not very much") regardless of my using sarcasm in that particular post.

But I'm sorry... next time I use sarcasm, I'll make sure to clear it with you in writing so you can give me a fancy little pin which says "allowed to use sarcasm without randomly being accused of lying."

(Ooh, look! Meta-sarcasm!)

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

When I jump in argument and dont feel like I want to argue against somebody`s standpoint I make general argument. I dont build straw mans and attack them, mock my opposition after I am finished by regarding said arguments predictable and telling them to come up with new ones.

Well as much as I admire your willingness to wade through dozens of pages of walls of text before making a post, that's an ideal and it's not always possible in the time available to the average person. Unless you're telling me I should've stayed out of the thread entirely... in which case I would tell you that you have no obligation to reply to me, and you never did. If you thought so lowly of that post, you had every right to let it go unanswered and not validate its existence. Incidentally, you have the same right to do so about this post.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

If restricting leveling options is such a good idea then restricting it to just questing would be a good idea? Heck, who needs questing, good old time grind is more than enough! And we get just as idiotic argument to the other end. I am against in restricting hypers as I feel the reasons majority wants to restrict them are misinformed. I also consider it unfair to keep something in game for years and then take it away so newer players cant have the option to use it if they want to.

I didnt invalidate it for that reason, I mocked it for hypocrisy and plain absurdness of you trying to pin some "forcing my way of fun for others". The game has grown and evolved from the grinding/questing you are refering as the only legit way of leveling. FC has been xp instance for years now, hypers have existed for years, calling it any test run you make it seem is really quite something. I still dont force anybody to hyper, only argue people are allowed to make that choice in the light of recent years.

What I said - and what you apparently didn't read - was that we have to draw a line somewhere. That's the whole point of this thread and its poll... to draw that line on what should count as a legitimate leveling method or not. Your insistence on demonizing any and all restrictions suggested to me that you draw the line at "allow everything, including gooning and even more egregious forms of quasi-instant leveling which haven't even been proposed yet."

It was my hope that you would prove me wrong on that point by adopting a somewhat more reasonable approach to drawing that line, at which point we could just, perhaps, agree to disagree. Instead, your response seems to be to accuse me of being the complete polar opposite of you - that I acknowledge only grinding and questing as legitimate forms of leveling.

Too bad that's not what I said... at all. In fact, I listed at least eight or ten methods of leveling which I consider legitimate, and I mentioned that there were more that I couldn't bother to remember at the time.

It really undercuts your arguments (not the least of which, your strawman argument) when you fail to read what I wrote and just assume that I want everything exactly as it was in 2008. I've honestly enjoyed our debate up until this point. I would hate to think that it's degenerated to the point where we're dealing in black-and-white polar opposites, because to be honest with you, that's not a debate I'm interested in having. If I wanted to see that, I could just turn on the news and pick a political debate at random.