What about Game Advisors ?

Kitkate - Dreamweaver

Shoenfein - Archosaur wrote: »

Thank you for the reply. That actually makes my point. The GAs would be put in this exact same scenario that you related. Something would go wrong - like a wedding glitch - and people would expect them to be able to make it right - and they cannot.

As far as a player's perspective, it does add another link in the chain, because they would make their complaints with GAs, just as you say they do with Val - to no end. It would still be possible to submit tickets around GAs, just as it would to submit to GMs not to Val - who everyone in Archosaur mistook for a GM - myself included. Adding more people that report the same things everyone else already reports - pointless - if the people that are GMs (or not) still do nothing about it.

I did not know Val wasn't a GM. I look at his avatar on here, and it's marked "GM".

Val is like the middle man between the players and the company. Anything that seems like a major problem, he reports to have fixed. He moderates the community, not the game...if that makes sense. The GAs would probably have a more direct line to the GMs, similar to how Val has a direct line to them. Yes, it still depends fully on the GMs and devs to fix stuff...but atleast stuff is getting reported more efficiently maybe? The GAs would just be a reliable group of players the company could look at.

I think the GMs are trying harder though. Like the new section of the forum where we have GMs talking to the players about problems. Gynotypist has been a busy GM in quality corner. This is more interaction than has ever been on this game with them.

There just needs to be a clarification of who has what power in the game. It needs to be updated and easy to find for the playerbase.Players<GA/(Forum Mods)<Val<GM..etc. the GAs would act as the forum mods do. Cleaning up some spam. I dont see it as pointless, and i think it is worth a shot. If it doesnt work, you scrap it and we go back to before. f:victory

heerohex#3018

Could use a Sum Up Again.

If i Get time ill have a go.

Something to ADD and looks like your agree "their needs to be a complete understanding what a GA Roll would be within the game. What they can and cant do" Either way Pointing someone in the right direction even if it is towards the ticket system is better than noting. The Right Advice Goes A long way....

Agree with the Chat Log! as i said Before.

Hopefully Val will come back with someting In the next few weeks.

Crixxix - Raging Tide

heero200 wrote: »

Could use a Sum Up Again.

If i Get time ill have a go.

Something to ADD and looks like your agree "their needs to be a complete understanding what a GA Roll would be within the game. What they can and cant do" Either way Pointing someone in the right direction even if it is towards the ticket system is better than noting. The Right Advice Goes A long way....

Agree with the Chat Log! as i said Before.

Hopefully Val will come back with someting In the next few weeks.

Agreed! I look forward to what info Val has for us, and think it would be very beneficial for the community. I also didn't know Val wasn't a GM, his forum icon is... misleading. Opps! False advertisement! Let's all hop on the bandwagon and sue PW! b:laugh

Anyway, truly am looking forward to this. Might clean up World Chat quite nicely.

Kitkate - Dreamweaver

He has the GM symbol, but underneath his name it says community manager. There is a difference between the two. Val talks to the players and announces stuff. He handles things like that.

Crixxix - Raging Tide

Well, he does more good in one day than the whole lot of GM's do in a month. He may as well be CEO for PWE for all the stuff he gets done for us.

How many GM's do we even have? I think some of them may have gotten fired, cause I haven't seen anyone other than Val, Geno, and the MODs on forums, unless something slipped past me.

I think that PWI needs to stop hiring people with BA's, and start hiring some GM's that actually have common sense, cause now that I know Val is the CM, I can honestly say that I've never met one GM that had common sense... wait, I've never met a GM. f:laugh

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well, he does more good in one day than the whole lot of GM's do in a month. He may as well be CEO for PWE for all the stuff he gets done for us.

How many GM's do we even have? I think some of them may have gotten fired, cause I haven't seen anyone other than Val, Geno, and the MODs on forums, unless something slipped past me. I think that PWI needs to stop hiring people with BA's, and start hiring some GM's that actually have common sense, cause now that I know Val is the CM, I can honestly say that I've never met one GM that had common sense... wait, I've never met a GM. f:laugh

I like Val better than Franky. Franky was mean. Franky make Zan cry. Franky ban Zan. Val no ban Zan. Zan happy with Val.

There's a lot of small and large tweaks that, if PW were to undergo them, it would become an extremely good game. It has a lot of potential, it's just untapped in favor of fattening some wallets. It's still the only game I've played where you have to spend or farm over 1,000 bucks to actually be a factor.

Crixxix - Raging Tide

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I like Val better than Franky. Franky was mean. Franky make Zan cry. Franky ban Zan. Val no ban Zan. Zan happy with Val.

There's a lot of small and large tweaks that, if PW were to undergo them, it would become an extremely good game. It has a lot of potential, it's just untapped in favor of fattening some wallets. It's still the only game I've played where you have to spend or farm over 1,000 bucks to actually be a factor.

As for the comments about Frankie, I think that's the nicest way to describe him. Mean.

I think your absolutely right about this game having "untapped potential", and if they would stop thinking about money in the short term, they would make much more in the end.

Wealth and rank are what people desire, but unless they are obtained in the right way they may not be possessed. - Confucius

That in mind, the wrong way to go about making money is thinking the about the short term, and charging people like mad. Instead, make your cash shop items cheaper, and the game's life will become akin to immortal. Make the game last.

Kitkate - Dreamweaver

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well, he does more good in one day than the whole lot of GM's do in a month. He may as well be CEO for PWE for all the stuff he gets done for us.

How many GM's do we even have? I think some of them may have gotten fired, cause I haven't seen anyone other than Val, Geno, and the MODs on forums, unless something slipped past me.

I think that PWI needs to stop hiring people with BA's, and start hiring some GM's that actually have common sense, cause now that I know Val is the CM, I can honestly say that I've never met one GM that had common sense... wait, I've never met a GM. f:laugh

We have more GMs, they just like to hide because our playerbase is kind of scary. f:fan

heerohex#3018

Original Drakaniel - Heavens Tear
Black - Orignal Work.
Gray - Orginal Work.

EDITS Heero200 (Complete 06/05/2013)
Orange - Eddits By Heero200
Red - Important notes and (Quotes By other players)
Green - Gxtra Info By Heero200

Ok I think we have a pretty good definition by now :

Primary attributions :
- Direct link between the players and the GMs and CM
Be able to Report / confirm any server crash or instance failure such as (FF)
- Suggestions forum watcher (UNNESSARY AS WE ALREADY HAVE FORUM MODS)?
---> Suggestions (INGAME TO CHECK) AND PRODUCE SS FOR
---> Bugs (INGAME TO CHECK) AND PRODUCE SS FOR
---> Report any GLICTHES ( Good EXAMPLE would be the Goons Glitch.)
==> for both suggestions and bugs, their duty is to relay the most realisable fixes to the GMs and give them a priority order ( IS this not needed now as the Quality Corner Seams to be doing the Job?)


Secondary attributions :
- Moveing People from being stuck.
This should only be alowed if you can see them with out having to enter an instance or have to be so close for this to work and should have a SET location that this ports to (Say Arch Middle). Port Stones may also be a good idea for this. For the GA to move easier?
- Bot Spoting?
From the forums i see this is an issue not big but a problem even so. Should the GA have any tools to be able to deal with this or should it just be reported? SS Needed ETC? (After reading previous threads people have requested this possibly be one of jobs of GAs)

- moderate
--> WC moderate the things that are said, the spamming, etc...
Possibly have the ablity to set ban* / Mute (*WC only) for a SET MAX (1~) hours only a GM should be able to pema Ban. Saying this would also be able to avoid Black List so its possible to talk to people even if they BL you. (Chat log will cover missuse)
--> give advices when people ask for a GM
(they must be knowledgable) Pointing someone in the right direction is better than nothing at all.
--> Scammers Moderation Via Cat Shops.
Possibly have the ablity to set ban setting cat shop for a SET MAX (1~) hours only a GM should be able to pema Ban.

PVP servers and PVE servers don't have necessary the same issues.

Something to think About?
Stelth may be required for dealing with issues as we do not want our GAs killed when dealing with issues? (They would be a target even if u told people no to PK them. in this instance its not worth the risk?)



Tools :
- Chatroom IG (GA / Players )
- Private forum
- GM's and CM's e-mail adresses (a @perfectworld.com would be awesome / needed.
- Each other's e-mail adresses or a group E-mail that sends to all GAs.
- Limited GMs IG features (if possible (As above)
Immunity / Monster Spawn / Monster Creator / GM World Chat / stealth / Player Ban From Game and forums / Send Mail Item / Port by ALT and Click to location - Would not be Required or needed.
- The abbility to do EVENTS such as a CUBE RUN or Meet the GA and spawn a mob.
GAs could help support events rather than run them and GAs could have an item thats spawns mobs sent to them to entertain players on ocasion. "O WOW their is a WAR RABBIT over here. 550m HP or something.


Choice :

- A Question raised here is how many GAs you would need would it be over all or Per server? Something to be thought about.

by :
- Application (resume + motivation + interview)
- Previous Game History May or not may be used ? I would say on a person to person point. Eveyone makes mastakes however this may give advanced info if they will missuse this?
To Reduce the chance of missuse the CM / GM should apoint if people are voted in people MAY vote for friends rather than people who will do this correctly.

Some Qualities we are looking at from our GAs.
-Sacrifice a lot of time and miss opportunities like events. (if it's a player)
-Be really patient.
-Be polite.
-Be able to communicate
-Know how to use forum and support.
-Be fair,
This is important as its a reason people may take a disslike to, people should be warned when actions will be taken should the actions continue?
-Know the game.

I think someone that really knows the ins and outs of the game would probably do a better job at it than someone who is hired and has never played before.

Materialisation :
On the forums :
- Special avatar (like mods and GMs)
- Title (under the avatar)
But have no need to Moderate the forums as we already have a good team doing so.
In-game :
- a tag next to or above their IG name
People will work out who the server GAs are eventually anywayz so why hide this.
- special chat color
This could be a good idea so the GA can notify a player of any violation and can been seen over all other chats. Or could where it shows (Noarmal/Wisper/Guild/World) Say GA Chat when a GA is in contact with a player. ** THIS COULD BE IMPORTANT POINTS SO A PLAYER INGAME KNOWS THEY HAVE AN OFFICIAL GA.
-Player Contact in game
How would a player ingame comunicate with a GA? the OLD GM button has been sugested to be part of this?

Compansation :
- Still UNDER DEBATE as forum mods dont get this. GA should be in the same to suport the game not for profit - Val to have final say on this.
- Should GAs have a different account or use the account they play with?
Kinda this is more for the GMs / CM to decide ? - This is the most supported idea as well but will increase the workload on the GA / Player.


Security For GA, Players and system :
- CHAT LOG system in place where possible
- Event Log in place where possible
The GA should be able to make notes to this if needed to back up a situation.
- A clear understanding for players / GMs / GAs of what the roll of a GA and what they can and cant do?

Also, I think that there should be a GA Manager, that won't have more attributions nor tools than the others, but that will only make sure the GA system works properly. Like tracking their activity and making sure they don't abuse of the powers given to them. ( Is this needed ? )

UPDATES: Ill Keep an Eye on anything else said in the next few days and look over past comments and update where needed.

IMPORTANT POSTS.

Post 110
Post 141
Post 204

Support Posts.
Post 213
Post 252
Post 294

Let me know if any should be added?

Shoenfein - Archosaur

I'm not saying that I think the idea in itself isn't good. I'm simply saying that there is no reason to expect change. There is no need for a new relay to the GMs. The GMs need to be responsive, and that's it. That is the only thing that will fix the problems.

I just don't have the ability to support the fantasy that new people reporting old information will change anything. Sorry.

ovenusarmanio

If this did get created, obviously if they had GAs the gms would be communicative with them. I don't see the point in going through all the trouble to create a ga program and then ignoring the GAs entirely. That would make zero sense. Just like they don't have forum mods that they ignore, whereas the CM/GM team don't really browse the forums as often as we do and we've alerted them to numerous threads in the past that they might not have noticed otherwise. If they are able to get this program up and running, I think it would be beneficial.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

I do agree for that, I just hope that if they do it there will be on all servers and not just some servers.

PVP servers and PVE servers don't have necessary the same issues.

And if GA have any advantages (mute, temporary ban or w/e) then I think GA should be PWI employe and not some random players.

heerohex#3018

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

If this did get created, obviously if they had GAs the gms would be communicative with them. I don't see the point in going through all the trouble to create a ga program and then ignoring the GAs entirely. That would make zero sense. Just like they don't have forum mods that they ignore, whereas the CM/GM team don't really browse the forums as often as we do and we've alerted them to numerous threads in the past that they might not have noticed otherwise. If they are able to get this program up and running, I think it would be beneficial.

The whole idea is to support the player base. Keep the Game very much active and to fill a small gap where the GMs have become so busy with.

I have no idea what happened to be fair the GMs where in game one day n gone the next.

But with anything if you dont try you wont get results!

Unlike a lot of people who just want to run others down and QQ. I will do what i can to support this game when i can, because playing soming for that long and doing what this game does taking all the stress and givin me something to enjoy is worth that!

With that said if people dont think this will work they should say so... That way the GMs and Val can make sure this is RIGHT and WILL work first time...

heerohex#3018

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

I do agree for that, I just hope that if they do it there will be on all servers and not just some servers.

Check my my sum up on bottom of P19 for this issue. Some Feedback on this may be a good idea. Forum Mods would prob have a good idea about this as they cover a part of the PWI comunity.

PVP servers and PVE servers don't have necessary the same issues.

Good Point!

And if GA have any advantages (mute, temporary ban or w/e) then I think GA should be PWI employe and not some random players.

This is one of the reasons they will be limited and a Clear outline of what they can and cant do should be set.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

heero200 wrote: »

This is one of the reasons they will be limited and a Clear outline of what they can and cant do should be set.

It's just my opinion, if they have any kind of ''power'' then it should not be a player.

Cause anyway with all the stuff you wrote a normal player would not have time anymore to play anyway.

That is a job, cause the GA will be constantly busy when online in game.

There's no way that a normal player can do that job and still play.

heerohex#3018

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

It's just my opinion, if they have any kind of ''power'' then it should not be a player.

Cause anyway with all the stuff you wrote a normal player would not have time anymore to play anyway.

That is a job, cause the GA will be constantly busy when online in game.

There's no way that a normal player can do that job and still play.

Fair points. Noted.

Crixxix - Raging Tide

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

It's just my opinion, if they have any kind of ''power'' then it should not be a player.

Cause anyway with all the stuff you wrote a normal player would not have time anymore to play anyway.

That is a job, cause the GA will be constantly busy when online in game.

There's no way that a normal player can do that job and still play.

Honestly, I agree with heero200. This game doesn't need more people with a Bachelor's Degree, they need more people with common sense. Having a Bachelor's Degree doesn't mean that you have common sense, and common sense can't be taught.

I feel that a fairly large portion of the player base has common sense, and would fill this role wonderfully. I agree that they should have some power within the game, perhaps spawning certain mobs (like last boss for 100 culti, after delta), that have ben known to glitch (happened to me, had to trash quest and start over... I was 5 minutes from bring done).

I also think that logging all of their activities is a good idea, and might wanna point out the obvious that they would likely be on a special account separate from their own. Obvious, but worth noting. b:laugh

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

It's just my opinion, if they have any kind of ''power'' then it should not be a player.

Cause anyway with all the stuff you wrote a normal player would not have time anymore to play anyway.

That is a job, cause the GA will be constantly busy when online in game.

There's no way that a normal player can do that job and still play.

Well, honestly I don't really see the need for GAs to be given as many duties as people are stating. It sounded like the goal was for them to be a direct line of communication between players and GMs/CM. So in that case, they shouldn't need the ability to for example teleport stuck people, or fix anything, or spawn anything.... if there is a problem, they just get help from a GM. Which is something we are currently unable to do, which is our biggest problem. (And as far as reporting new glitches/bugs, Quality Corner is doing a pretty good job I think, and it's nice that anyone can post them.)

Keep the in-game duties to smaller things like moderation, and as far as power at most maybe a way to ban someone from world chat for a short period, but they'd have to be able to back up their decision to use it with a screenshot showing inappropriate chat. I'm sure they already keep logs of everything anyway.

I think someone that really knows the ins and outs of the game would probably do a better job at it than someone who is hired and has never played before.

Crixxix - Raging Tide

Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think someone that really knows the ins and outs of the game would probably do a better job at it than someone who is hired and has never played before.

Thank you! That's what I've been saying, and the reason is that most of us players have enough common sense to know what we need to enjoy the game. Now by most of us, I don't mean the trolls who think the game is all about them, or the QQers who think we need to level faster or need even more OP gear. I'm tellin you now people, this game is not all about you two groups. It's about me. b:laugh


Enough comedy for the post, and all BS aside, you can't teach common sense in school. Either you have it, or you don't. We need more people with common sense, and some of our player base would do just fine. I think it shouldn't be something that we have only 1 or 2 of on a server, maybe to go as far as 20 per server. This way, there are several options available because of this.

1. They could put people on "shifts". This gives GA's time to be players as well, and to ensure that if a GA has something come up in real life, there will always be a GA online. I don't think PWI needs to assign times, but rather for the GA's to work that out amongst themselves.

2. Sometimes there might be more than 1 GA online, which will help with World Chat clean up, etc.

3. Time Zone differences will be able to be easily accounted for.

I also think some basic abilities do need to be put in place, such as the ability to mute. I seriously doubt anyone here can disagree, how many people spam/troll World Chat on a daily basis?

heerohex#3018

Few Tweaks made to GA Sum up. Changes in Orange.

Link Here

Some Good points raised and Some points cleared up!

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

Materialisation :
On the forums :
- Special avatar (like mods and GMs)
- Title (under the avatar)
But have no need to Moderate the forums as we already have a good team doing so.
In-game :
- a tag next to or above their IG name
- special chat color (?)

This totally depends on who would be taking on the job. If we are talking about hiring people that will not be playing the game, then this is fine. But if you are taking actual players that will be still playing the game as well as moderating, I'm not sure it would be wise to label them to the entire server. Imagine if you were trying to just do your daily BH, and were spammed by non-stop whispers from people, 9/10 of which were just complaints that were nothing you could change anyway? This kind of notoriety would effectively destroy any chance at playing that these people would have.

Probably a better idea would be to implement a way (redo the useless GM button?) for people to post their concerns/questions/info about botters or scammers or whatnot, and have the GA be able to access the info. This gives them freedom from being inundated by whispers and time for them to go through and separate out what might or might not be relevant, as well as investigate what needs to be investigated, at their own pace.

heerohex#3018

Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This totally depends on who would be taking on the job. If we are talking about hiring people that will not be playing the game, then this is fine. But if you are taking actual players that will be still playing the game as well as moderating, I'm not sure it would be wise to label them to the entire server. Imagine if you were trying to just do your daily BH, and were spammed by non-stop whispers from people, 9/10 of which were just complaints that were nothing you could change anyway? This kind of notoriety would effectively destroy any chance at playing that these people would have.

Probably a better idea would be to implement a way (redo the useless GM button?) for people to post their concerns/questions/info about botters or scammers or whatnot, and have the GA be able to access the info. This gives them freedom from being inundated by whispers and time for them to go through and separate out what might or might not be relevant, as well as investigate what needs to be investigated, at their own pace.

Good Points. Will add this point to the list in the next few days!

If i was in this possition im not sure if i would be happy with all the PMs. form the tag. The old GM button used a sorta log to log peoples issues and the GM could select the complaints in order of what needed to be delt with. On the other side people would work out who is a GA in the long run anywaz. If im in an instance and doing this im sure another GA would pick this up so it could be delt with in the same way or when im free. Im guessing the main roll will be giveing advice in game when a situation arises. To moderate WC you can be anywhere in game anywayz. but if you where to have to move someone from being stuck and you would either need an item or as is in the list, about porting people to a set place i would need to SS and see this. After all only probly 1/50 times TP wont work (Ive known twice that even reloging and Summon didnt work.)

A main point is using another account to do this i would not get anything done. People dont alwayz need a GM do they so im sure their would be time to get on with playing the game. People to ask about this would be our Forum Mods again i would say?

Another thing to keep in mind. The list is only to help the GMs and CM understand what we as a comunity are expecting form this and how it could possibly work.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This totally depends on who would be taking on the job. If we are talking about hiring people that will not be playing the game, then this is fine. But if you are taking actual players that will be still playing the game as well as moderating, I'm not sure it would be wise to label them to the entire server. Imagine if you were trying to just do your daily BH, and were spammed by non-stop whispers from people, 9/10 of which were just complaints that were nothing you could change anyway? This kind of notoriety would effectively destroy any chance at playing that these people would have.

Kinda what I said.

The forum moderators don't get pay and don't have advantages in game, but they are 5-6 to take care of 1 forum and we don't have a crazy active forum.

In nw we can hit around 1000 people online and we do know that nw have issues (a lot), nw is kinda the big thing right now, so if a player is GA he have 2 choices, miss every nw to help people if he want to be a good GA, or go nw and people with issues in nw will complain that in nw they don't have the GA support.

People not going nw are usually people that can't cause of time zone, so if they can't go as players they won't be able to go as GA.

Same for some events.

The player that will be GA will have a lot to sacrifice to be a good GA and if he's not paid then I bet that you won't have GA that will stay more then a month at doing that job without get pay with all the sacrifices he will do.

I'm not a professional or either know that but here a list of qualities and qualifications that I think a GA should have:

-Sacrifice a lot of time and miss opportunities like events. (if it's a player)

-Be really patient.

-Be polite.

-Be able to communicate in English obviously.

-Know the game. (the only point that really a player would have advantage over someone that don't play)

-Know how to use forum and support.

-Be fair, if a GA have any kind of power even just mute then he must be aware that he might need to mute his friends and to don't mute people just cause he don't like them and players are humans with feeling so that might be hard for a in game player.

-Be ready to be hated (the occasional hate we can see against mods is nothing compare to the hate GA will have if they have the mute power), if they do have a mute power then you can be sure that they will be spam hated, so the GA need to be someone that can handle really bad reactions from angry players, someone that can handle to be call names and even to be threaten and that need to stay patient and polite in all cases.

PWI community is really full of trolls and idiots and not everyone could handle that from the inside without any ''training'' and support if needed. If a player become GA without be a PWI employee, do he will get help if he need? Or he will be ignored cause he is a ''simple'' player?

I personally think that if players are GA then they should not have mute/ban power at all, but maybe a direct way of communicate that he can SS send to GM asap and GM mute/ban asap and not 3 days later. When I say a GA player should not have mute/ban power it's not in the way that they don't get advantages, but to protect themselves from players reaction to a mute/ban, the GA should be there to point out to the GM the situation that need a mute/ban and the GM do it. GM should be the one taking the decision of mute/ban permanent or not.

v4liance

I'm loving the discussion so far! Lots of valid concerns are being raised that would absolutely need to be addressed, should this program ever become an official part of PWI.

As I mentioned previously, I've got some plans in motion that are working toward making this program a reality.

I'm not quiiiitteee ready to divulge those plans, but I'm almost there.

I'll check back in soon as I can f:grin

- Hey, You!

Crixxix - Raging Tide

w00t! 400th post!


Hey Val,

I'm quite curious to see what exactly GAs get to do, just hope your as crafty as you seem. Looking forward to seeing your plans. Keep up the great work.

- Crix

Kitkate - Dreamweaver

Well let's hop to it Val and get this rolling. Let' s see some action. f:fan

Crixxix - Raging Tide

Kitkate - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well let's hop to it Val and get this rolling. Let' s see some action.

Not sure if that's meant to be rude or supportive. I fully support this idea, and believe that even if it's not perfect when first implemented, that Val will make the GA program evolve with time.

Kitkate - Dreamweaver

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

Not sure if that's meant to be rude or supportive. I fully support this idea, and believe that even if it's not perfect when first implemented, that Val will make the GA program evolve with time.

Supportive of course. I want to see this start. ;D

Sizzer - Raging Tide

b:chuckle Don't think it will ever start b:avoid

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Kitkate - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Supportive of course. I want to see this start. ;D

Dibs on Morai GA. I'm on all the time and can deal with hate!b:laugh