Cube Should Not Be Pk Enabled!!!!

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

See... I am not sure you understand the whole concept of protecting others... or you just don't have the ability to do so. I don't freaking go in to dt to dug for chests that only sells for a dime worth of coins. I even leave chests untouched when I leave. Any 1 person that I kill in cube is 1 less person my cube-mates have to deal with. And any 1 person I kill in dt is 1 person that my squad mates have to deal with. Sure... you can argue that they'll only come back in a few minutes. Well... all the freaking chests would be gone in a few minutes... or my cube mates would have already finished.

In DT, considering one enters with the expectation of PK as being central to the experience, there's nothing your squad mates are "dealing with" that they wouldn't be "dealing with" anyway. Unless they aren't going for chests, like yourself, in which case the whole experience can be faithfully recreated in west outskirts, couldn't it? Ah, but we don't go into DT for real PK, do we. We go in for mice bashing and to block the fash NPC for no reason. >_> Something tells me your squad mates can "deal with" that just fine without you.

And again, a PK-less cube leaves nothing for your squad to "deal with" in the first place.

I have to wonder, are you just trolling at this point, or is that seriously supposed to be an argument? -_-

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes... such a nice real life that you have. Hence you are still here arguing over something that more then likely was the intention of the original dev.

An internet argument is an internet argument, man. And as with any argument, it takes two (or more) to argue. :P

Of course, I don't let **** on the forums get in the way of having an actual life, and I would assume neither do you. But if I was gonna brag about RL stuff, I'd at least use stuff that was worth bragging about. That's what makes it so funny.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

you may recall me mentioning i'm not the sort of person who's impressed with a rule merely because it is a rule? yeah, no, not impressed with something merely because it's old, either. a stupid design decision that's been in place a long time is merely a really old mistake.

then you need not spout obvious silly hyperbole about how the cube would be "boring" without PvP. the only purpose for such a comment would be to look down your e-nose at wimpy, weak carebear bluenames; so if you're one yourself, you can just abandon that tactic.

The cube would be "boring" removing PVP from the equation -- that's exactly right. It's you who wants to take a "blow up the instance" approach just because you think every instance should be PVE only on a PVE server. Obviously this ignores the will of those who made the game, and ignores quite a substantial amount of the playerbase who does cube without such horrible QQing, so the only thing I can suggest is to make your own game, or stay out of cube. No hyperbole needed on my part, it's pretty easy responding to exaggerations and you relying on straw man arguments about being a white-named person or looking down my nose to make your own argument easier from face value. Yeah, it doesn't take someone looking down their nose or someone who PVP's to understand the originality of that instance. You obviously don't appreciate it, so go play one of the many other non PK enabled instances. At least I'm not taking any choices away that you don't already have. You're the one trying to take away others'. Quite selfish. No developer would listen to the arguments you gave.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The cube would be "boring" removing PVP from the equation -- that's exactly right.

hold that thought, i'll get back to it momentarily.

Obviously this ignores the will of those who made the game,

damn straight it does. the will of those who made the game is utterly irrelevant, for a couple of excellent reasons: one, we don't know it, since they don't seem to have written it down and aren't available to explain themselves; and two, they neither made this commercial product merely to realize their own private will nor do we play this game to please those creators' private wishes.

"the customer is always right" may not always be exactly true, but when it comes to customers purchasing their own entertainment, it's damn close.

[...] straw man arguments about being a white-named person or looking down my nose to make your own argument easier from face value.

resume the thought you held, about how janus thinks a pvp-less cube would be boring. note how, just a few sentences later, he thinks i'm using a "straw man" when i accuse him of looking down his nose at non-whitenames. yet HE is the one who (1) claims he could not find any entertainment in the cube without pvp, and:

You obviously don't appreciate it, so go play one of the many other non PK enabled instances.

...(2), feels quite at ease telling ME to go play something else instead --- rather than take his bluenamed butt into, say, dragon temple for his pvp entertainment. pot to kettle, you've been tanning.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

damn straight it does. the will of those who made the game is utterly irrelevant, for a couple of excellent reasons: one, we don't know it, since they don't seem to have written it down and aren't available to explain themselves; and two, they neither made this commercial product merely to realize their own private will nor do we play this game to please those creators' private wishes.

"the customer is always right" may not always be exactly true, but when it comes to customers purchasing their own entertainment, it's damn close.

Since when are you required to pay for the game. And since when are the manufacture of anything require to change what they are originally selling. Thats like walking in to a kia dealer to buy a 10k car... then coming back tomorrow and demand that they upgrade the engine to 10cy v90 dohc cause the manufacture isn't around to defend their decision on the **** engine. Or when is the last time you walk in to mcdonalds for your dollar cheeseburger just to turn around and demand a porterhouse because jim skinner isn't around to explain why he decided to put **** beef in his dollar menu items.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

hold that thought, i'll get back to it momentarily.

damn straight it does. the will of those who made the game is utterly irrelevant, for a couple of excellent reasons: one, we don't know it, since they don't seem to have written it down and aren't available to explain themselves; and two, they neither made this commercial product merely to realize their own private will nor do we play this game to please those creators' private wishes.

"the customer is always right" may not always be exactly true, but when it comes to customers purchasing their own entertainment, it's damn close.

The customer is always right is an inherent flaw in logic. No one is always right. Not the business, not the consumer. The presumption that you're right as a customer seems to reflect why you think you're right in trying to enforce your will when those who develop the game allow you to play. This is not your content, this is not your property. Therefore, it's not your will. Pretty simple.

resume the thought you held, about how janus thinks a pvp-less cube would be boring. note how, just a few sentences later, he thinks i'm using a "straw man" when i accuse him of looking down his nose at non-whitenames. yet HE is the one who (1) claims he could not find any entertainment in the cube without pvp, and:

...(2), feels quite at ease telling ME to go play something else instead --- rather than take his bluenamed butt into, say, dragon temple for his pvp entertainment. pot to kettle, you've been tanning.

That's right. I don't PVP, and I find the cube would be boring without the challenge of avoiding other players. Appreciating an instance for the challenges it brings does not equate to the straw men you are using, and does not represent hypocrisy or double standards. It's one standard -- leave the f-ing instance alone. I don't have to PK people and I do fine, and, even better, I don't need to change the instance to reflect the way I personally play, which seems to go above and beyond your sefish logic. This isn't a bug like the FF glitch, nor is it an obvious game design flaw like when someone DC's in rebirth, comes back, and the squad AOEing them can 1K them, not to mention mobs 1K someone in the first place. You should perhaps study the logic of what you're arguing against, because trying to dissect it to pick it apart is obviously resulting in utter failure.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The customer is always right is an inherent flaw in logic. No one is always right. Not the business, not the consumer. The presumption that you're right as a customer seems to reflect why you think you're right in trying to enforce your will when those who develop the game allow you to play. This is not your content, this is not your property. Therefore, it's not your will. Pretty simple.

no no... lets try to go with this "customer is always right logic". compare the gear of me and my associates... vs those who are against pking in cube. if our gear is worth lets say... over 100 times of what lenie/mugie's gear is worth. its a fair assumption that more or less we are responsible for 100 times the economic impact as they do. does that make our opinion 100 time more right then theirs? after all... who are you going to keep happy. someone who buys you coffee every now and then. or someone who is paying for your mortgage and your kid's tuition?

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

no no... lets try to go with this "customer is always right logic". compare the gear of me and my associates... vs those who are against pking in cube. if our gear is worth lets say... over 100 times of what lenie/mugie's gear is worth. its a fair assumption that more or less we are responsible for 100 times the economic impact as they do. does that make our opinion 100 time more right then theirs? after all... who are you going to keep happy. someone who buys you coffee every now and then. or someone who is paying for your mortgage and your kid's tuition?

A person who spends like 300 dollars one time on APS gear and then uses it to farm nirvy/solo fc heads for coins to buy their gear is going to bring in less money in their yearly report than someone who puts in say 20 bucks each paycheck (say 10 dollars a week or 20 dollars every two weeks) or 40 bucks a month. Thats why though it seems like PWI makes soo much money on APS the fact there is a lack of new players is problematic. They are making less money in the long run. Thats why their numbers are gonna keep going down if they don't do something to fix it. Same with rank 9, that thousand dollars may seem nice in the short run but if they had kept their casual customer instead of changing the game in a way that had the older players rage quit they could have made 1320 dollars off them over the course of the life of the game thus far. That's enough to buy rank 9 and aps. PWI really needs to work on retention of players rather than just one quick burst of money. Though they should still give Mr. Heavy Cash shopper a return on his investment. This is why the P2P models are so successful, they retain both customers and make way more money in the long term instead of relying on the occasional big spender every week. That being said the annoucement of their new games and this tournament seems to have benefited them greatly. Hopefully they'll manage those games well and their customers will keep their stocks going up.

None of that has any relevance to PK in the cube though.

I think I would be happy if they just removed the room 38 req for finishing your character or just made rooms 1-38 unable to PK in but increased the rewards for finishing it. Make it worthwhile to run the whole thing.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A person who spends like 300 dollars one time on APS gear and then uses it to farm nirvy/solo fc heads for coins to buy their gear is going to bring in less money in their yearly report than someone who puts in say 20 bucks each paycheck (say 10 dollars a week or 20 dollars every two weeks) or 40 bucks a month.

I think you are giving them too much credit. Have you look at their gears? Give me 40 gold... and I can buy everything Miugre has and much more.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Lets put a spin on this topic.

You can keep the pk in the cube if the person doing the pking is the one who goes back to room 1 while the person that got pked simply revives on the spot and stays in the same room. This does not apply in the rooms that require pk to pass.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lets put a spin on this topic.

You can keep the pk in the cube if the person doing the pking is the one who goes back to room 1 while the person that got pked simply revives on the spot and stays in the same room. This does not apply in the rooms that require pk to pass.

And just how much have you spent on the game to make your opinion matter? Dare I assume 40/month like how the previous poster suggested?

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lets put a spin on this topic.

You can keep the pk in the cube if the person doing the pking is the one who goes back to room 1 while the person that got pked simply revives on the spot and stays in the same room. This does not apply in the rooms that require pk to pass.

NO, just no. That's the worse fix for this I ever heard as all it does is transfer the griefing from the PvE player to the PvP player. Don't want someone else finishing the cube, just attack them without armor and then laugh at them when they go to room one. I think the best solution would be to do something that makes both sides happy (remove the room 38 quest/make a quest/item that lets you bypass PK in cube, respect white name/blue name mechanics, etc). If they can't do that I would like to seem them remove the PvP aspect entirely so that both players can finish their characters in their own playstyle (ban Pk in the cube/remove PK in the cube altogether). That seems only fair on a pve server. It's a little weird and nonsensical for a pve server that this is even an issue, chorno/ stuff needed for culti quite frankly shouldn't be in there in the first place. I'd rather see A then B. I'm not trying to change things so much though that the PvE players are basically sanctioned to grief the PvP players. I'd rather it stay the same than that, because I feel the person who gets their kill deserves their movement to the next room over someone letting themselves be one shot for the sole purpose of sending another player to room one.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And just how much have you spent on the game to make your opinion matter? Dare I assume 40/month like how the previous poster suggested?

How much I spend on this game is not an issue, but if you must know I've spent around $25 or so I think since I've played this game, and not even my avatar is accurate as to that since I was here before closed beta even began.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

NO, just no. That's the worse fix for this I ever heard as all it does is transfer the griefing from the PvE player to the PvP player. Don't want someone else finishing the cube, just attack them without armor and then laugh at them when they go to room one.

Only if the person is stupid enough to attack back. See this is when having super gear is a bad idea.b:laugh

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How much I spend on this game is not an issue, but if you must know I've spent around $25 or so I think since I've played this game, and not even my avatar is accurate as to that since I was here before closed beta even began.



Only if the person is stupid enough to attack back. See this is when having super gear is a bad idea.b:laugh

If they don't attack back just keep charm **** them until they do, while controlling yourself so that they don't die. Like I said, that encourages griefing. I don't like sanctoned griefing and don't think all PvP players are the boogieman who deserve to be punished. This just puts the shoe on the other foot so to speak and I don't think that's a resonable or fair. Like I said, this isn't (at least to me) about ruining their fun, it's about stopping them from ruining mine by putting reasonable restrictions on a single instance so that both sides can complete their characters and have their fun. If you want the extra rewards/whatever I really don't think that matters as those are just nice things to have. They aren't required. The only thing absolutely required to finish your character and finish the story of the game is the culti and anything required to finish the culti. Everything else is just gravy. You don't need the best gear in the game, you don't need to be the one making money off of PoF, you don't need to do DT or TW, you don't need to do any of those things.

Quite frankly I think that PWI needs to put more low riisk PvP enabled things in this game that give rewards so that the cube becomes less interesting to them. I think part of the reason there are more cube campers is that their is an inequity of gear. I've never seen rank 9s pking in there. If they gave more things where people wouldn't lose their items to someone who cash shopped their way to faceroll power or have to deal with the hassle of safety lock, then I think most of them would go there instead. There needs to be more PvP based things in this game like DT.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

someone who puts in say 20 bucks each paycheck (say 10 dollars a week or 20 dollars every two weeks) or 40 bucks a month. Thats why though it seems like PWI makes soo much money on APS the fact there is a lack of new players is problematic.

they could have made 1320 dollars off them over the course of the life of the game thus far.

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How much I spend on this game is not an issue, but if you must know I've spent around $25 or so I think since I've played this game, and not even my avatar is accurate as to that since I was here before closed beta even began.

25 dollars over 3 years is not quiet 40 dollars per month... and also a bit away from 1.3k. pretty sure my own spending is in the 3 digits/year for the year that i did play seriously. even if i change that to min of 100 dollars over 3 years... i am still 4x the spender. so how does that theory of the casual player will outspend r9 players over the "course of the life of the game".

EDIT: even if you do manage to find a casual player that spends 40/month. s/he is going need to be here for 10+ years to spend the amount that a select few drop in matters of half a year.

and oh yea... since i at least have spent 4x amount as zoe. does customer is always right means that i am 4 times the customer as her? and that i am 4 times as right as her? otherwise this customer is right thing is just a bunch of bs.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The presumption that you're right as a customer seems to reflect why you think you're right in trying to [...]

i'm buying entertainment for myself here. are you seriously trying to tell me i'm not right about what i find entertaining or not? because that'd be just about the most arrogantly selfish thing i've heard anybody say all year.

I don't PVP, and I find the cube would be boring without the challenge of avoiding other players.

that sentence, to me, is almost awesome in its self-contradiction. i genuinely cannot understand how finding entertainment and positive challenge in a PVP situation might ever be reconciled with "not PVPing". what could PVPing possibly involve, to you, if that's not sufficient to qualify?

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Just looked it up since I was interested myself. Turns out it was $50 spent, not $25.

Anyway I think pkers SHOULD be harassed for a short time to make up for all the harassment they do to everyone else. Just a month or so where the white name pkers themselves are able to be attacked and killed by blue name players and they can't fight back.

Jade Dynasty already does this when a red name is in a pve realm. They can be attacked by anyone not red named and the red named player cannot fight back.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

25 dollars over 3 years is not quiet 40 dollars per month... and also a bit away from 1.3k. pretty sure my own spending is in the 3 digits/year for the year that i did play seriously. even if i change that to min of 100 dollars over 3 years... i am still 4x the spender. so how does that theory of the casual player will outspend r9 players over the "course of the life of the game".

EDIT: even if you do manage to find a casual player that spends 40/month. s/he is going need to be here for 10+ years to spend the amount that a select few drop in matters of half a year.

Numerous casual spenders makes more money than one or two heavy cash shoppers. Most wealthy supermarket owners in the world (the Waltons) also have dirt cheap stuff, they make their money because everyone shops there. Another example is look how much more money they are making off of the starter kits now that they brought the price down to Earth. Someone low enough level to want that thing probably isn't going to spend 40 dollars on a game they might not even want. But 20 dollars to get them started properly? Yeah, they'll do that. Zoe isn't a good example because someone who has only spent only 50 dollars in the course of 3 years isn't in the category of casual cash shoppers. That more like a free to player who made a one time purchase a while ago just cuz they could. Or may have started out spending money but is not free to play.

Fintan - Lost City

I note that most of the discussion is still HT. I think people might be on the wrong server. I can't say I've EVER seen or heard of someone on LC PKing in 38. There's just too much going on in there that can kill you, as it is.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Fintan - Lost City wrote: »

I note that most of the discussion is still HT. I think people might be on the wrong server. I can't say I've EVER seen or heard of someone on LC PKing in 38. There's just too much going on in there that can kill you, as it is.

Hmm, I'm beginning to think a lot of them do it just to be able to PK without having to compete with super OP people since I generally don't see rank 9 people doing this. PvP servers are also not really being discussed so that could be part of the reason there is a lack of their comments since it wouldn't really apply to them. You roll a PvP server be ready anywhere anytime for PvP amirite? If you have more options, you aren't really interested in the cube I'm guessing. Like we noted, there isn't really any reward for PKing in cube. I wish there was more PvP based instances that gave rewards and could be accessed anytime they want that way they'd have better things to do than bother me. :P

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i'm buying entertainment for myself here. are you seriously trying to tell me i'm not right about what i find entertaining or not? because that'd be just about the most arrogantly selfish thing i've heard anybody say all year.

that sentence, to me, is almost awesome in its self-contradiction. i genuinely cannot understand how finding entertainment and positive challenge in a PVP situation might ever be reconciled with "not PVPing". what could PVPing possibly involve, to you, if that's not sufficient to qualify?

In both of these paragraphs what you fail to understand is that you are not the only one using said content. When you buy parts to build something yourself you can then dictate the terms upon how it's built and the structure regarding it. However, this is PW's house. They made the content and they are inviting you inside for a figurative pay-per-plate dinner (from a paying customer's viewpoint). You do not own the house just because you can get a plate of dinner and thus "customer is always right" is wrong here.

About the selfish part, I do not wish to change the content for everyone else because LenieClarke, other people enjoy the content as it is. It would benefit me personally if it changed to a pure PVE instance but I do not wish to get what I want because it ruins an instance made specifically for that challenge. There is no contradiction because I'm maintaining the same stance this entire time that it's selfish to change an instance merely because of your own personal wants. What I personally do in the game has no merit upon this viewpoint. I'm being unselfish -- also as a paying customer. You fail to recognize this.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Lenie, I don't think Janus is being selfish. He wants cube to stay the way it is, because thats how it's always been. To him, that's part of the challenge and though he dislikes PvP and probably doesn't care too much for it (and i'm guessing would't actively attack others) he doesn't want to change it to support a PvE playstyle. For him, the issue is the cube itself and how it's been that way for many ages. He thinks it would be selfish to change it now after so long because so many people are used to it and that it's part of the fun for them. He doesn't view level 100 culti as required so he doesn't feel as though it's forced.

For you and me, it's the about the larger issue of it being problematic to force someone into PK to complete their characters because we do think it's problematic that PWI is just like if you don't like cube just don't finish your character, those skills aren't that great anyway. A game promising PvE and then pulling the switcheroo and saying if you actually want to finish your character you have to PvP is stupid. Telling people, well just dont finish your characters if you don't like it as the official standpoint is dumb. It just so happens that these issues intersect at the cube. I can see where he is coming from. But I still maintain that just because something has always been that way, doesn't mean it's still a good rule (or even was ever a good rule) and that it shouldn't be changed. I think we can all agree to disagree and remain civil here so the thread doesn't get closed.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

He wants cube to stay the way it is, because thats how it's always been.

i think you're right about his motivation; unless i'm badly misreading him, that seems to be his most cogent argument. it is, as i think i've stated repeatedly now, a meaningless argument to me --- "because it's always been wrong that way" doesn't make it right. it appears the two of us are in agreement that far, at least.

i'm giving up on janus, though; he's too busy calling me selfish to bother listening to my points and arguments. i wouldn't even call that uncivil --- hell, if i wanted to get uncivil i'd blister his retinas if he managed to get to read what i'd write before it got deleted and me banned by the mods, and i'm quite sure he could do likewise if he really wanted to get rude with me --- but it does make further debate with him pointless, since he's not even trying to see my side. into the killfile with him.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i'm buying entertainment for myself here. are you seriously trying to tell me i'm not right about what i find entertaining or not? because that'd be just about the most arrogantly selfish thing i've heard anybody say all year.

I have an iphone... doesn't that means i can dictate what aapl does with their next release? after all... i did pay for the phone... and there are some changes/improvements that i would like to be made.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i think you're right about his motivation; unless i'm badly misreading him, that seems to be his most cogent argument. it is, as i think i've stated repeatedly now, a meaningless argument to me --- "because it's always been wrong that way" doesn't make it right. it appears the two of us are in agreement that far, at least.

i'm giving up on janus, though; he's too busy calling me selfish to bother listening to my points and arguments. i wouldn't even call that uncivil --- hell, if i wanted to get uncivil i'd blister his retinas if he managed to get to read what i'd write before it got deleted and me banned by the mods, and i'm quite sure he could do likewise if he really wanted to get rude with me --- but it does make further debate with him pointless, since he's not even trying to see my side. into the killfile with him.

I wouldn't go that far, he's really helpful in the cleric subforums. I actually quite like most of his posts even if I strongly disagree with him on this. I think perhaps the biggest problem with the cube is it's something that both sides feel strongly about. For people on PvE servers this is really one of the only hassle free PvP instances they can always do if they are bored. Events don't really count because they aren't always available. For PvE instances it seems grossly unfair that we are forced to PVP to complete our characters after purposefully choosing a PvE server expressly to avoid being someone elses kill fodder because we choose to level at our own pace and want to pick and choose when to PK.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Numerous casual spenders makes more money than one or two heavy cash shoppers.

do you really think thats the case? lets just assume that pwi wealth distribution is mirrored on US wealth distribution. if i remember correctly... in early 2011 the top 1% controls around 40-45% of us wealth. the top 5% is controlling ~60%. if the parallel is there. it takes 5% of the top cash shoppers to maintain a majority vote if we're going by vote per dollar.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

We play the same way pretty much Lenie, and I agreed long ago that it would solve a logical problem of chrono in cube if they simply took it out, which is far more a viable method of dealing with that instance than blowing it up and making it PVE only. I would also suggest, since it's evidently been done, submit a ticket detailing your objections, and your attempts, while having the room 38 quest in your active quests, and they just might complete the quest for you. Completing quests is one of a few things the GM's can do, and have done before (done for me when the Warrior of God quest glitched and couldn't spawn him nor trash quest to the point of being able to complete it), especially if you're nice about it.

Outside of that, which you seem to be aiming for (it's not a misunderstanding or ignoring of your points at all, they just aren't valid and are indeed rather selfish), you just want what you want with no compromise, just take away the challenge others regularly take, all because you charge some zen and deserve to have the game's development bend to your personal whims. I understand you perfectly fine, if I didn't, I don't think I'd consider a reasonable compromise.

Venus, I suppose I haven't taken much to evolving development mostly because of how development in this game actually works. Ideally, cube would be improved upon, wishfully, changed and made more difficult given the ease of which it's done for higher levels, however, I didn't address much of that solely due to the fact that they don't update **** concerning the older instances. Warsong PK bug, RB PK bug, 1K bug, rubber banding.. it seems rather futile to me to push for something that isn't going to happen, instead, taking a more pragmatic approach. I can understand why you (opposed to LenieClarke) might not think I consider your viewpoint, but I really don't focus on something I consider nigh impossible, yet, I do understand where you're coming from. This game already suffers immensely from stagnant development, and has long been a frustration I share.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think perhaps the biggest problem with the cube is it's something that both sides feel strongly about. For people on PvE servers this is really one of the only hassle free PvP instances they can always do if they are bored.

i've seen folks imply as much, but i still just don't see why simply going whitenamed is that much more of a hassle. i do it myself --- exceedingly rarely; only when one of my alts has a culti 39 death to do --- but i do it, and i've not really had any grief from it either. if someone really wants to PVP that badly, why not just use the built-right-in handy-dandy PVP mode the game has? (that way, too, they could know they're not hassling anyone who doesn't want to get PK'd, either.)

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

do you really think thats the case? lets just assume that pwi wealth distribution is mirrored on US wealth distribution. if i remember correctly... in early 2011 the top 1% controls around 40-45% of us wealth. the top 5% is controlling ~60%. if the parallel is there. it takes 5% of the top cash shoppers to maintain a majority vote if we're going by vote per dollar.

That ones must successful at shilling things were in general catering to the middle-lower class eg Walmart. The most successful of them all. And what is this dollar per vote nonsense? If you want to compare to the legal system in the United States then we all get one vote. That's it. Rich people exert their will through other means but that doesn't mean laymen aren't effective at lobbying either, look at the teacher's unions or the automotive unions. But as far as voting power goes everyone gets one vote regardless of how much money spend. As far as PWI, if the way they open servers is a fair indaction of who they are making their money off of, it's not the hardcore PvPers. It's the PvE players. There is more demand for PvE than PvP. They keep adding PvE content, they add more and more PvE servers (the last three servers were all PvE) and they changed SP to suit PvE players demands on both servers even though that rule makes absolutely no sense at all on a PvE server because if you want to get your SP chorno quest or FB29 done without being PKed, you can turn off PvP entirely. Actually if you were going to go dollar for dollar, I'd be willing to bet that though even though people on PvP servers tend to be better geared because they HAVE to be, PvE players tend to make them more money.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Venus, I suppose I haven't taken much to evolving development mostly because of how development in this game actually works. Ideally, cube would be improved upon, wishfully, changed and made more difficult given the ease of which it's done for higher levels, however, I didn't address much of that solely due to the fact that they don't update **** concerning the older instances. Warsong PK bug, RB PK bug, 1K bug, rubber banding.. it seems rather futile to me to push for something that isn't going to happen, instead, taking a more pragmatic approach. I can understand why you (opposed to LenieClarke) might not think I consider your viewpoint, but I really don't focus on something I consider nigh impossible, yet, I do understand where you're coming from. This game already suffers immensely from stagnant development, and has long been a frustration I share.

Yeah, but if the cube were to be physically changed to take away PK from some rooms, I imagine it wouldn't be hard to change it so that gives more rewards while you're tweaking it anyway. I agree on the stagnant development, there is simply no reason why both sides can't be pleased on this. According to a previous poster it wouldn't even be a complicated matter to change. I think the cubes needs to be updated to reflect the state of game now. As it is, more people camp cube now then when the rule first was implemented because A) the have better gear and it's easier to get 100 and camp then it was before and its harder to compete going white name with people in that level range so they prefer to do cube "for a fair fight," even though it really isn't if it's some random blue name who hasn't been built around PvP and who doesn't want to fight you and aren't prepared for a fight. C) there isn't as much new content for end game anymore, people get bored of the same stuff and most people aren't willing to do the other stuff that is available because the rewards are jokes. I still don't think any of those are a valid reason to ruin another players gaming expererience so I stand by my stance on the issue. When the rules were first implemented, the game wasn't like that. I did the cube all the time when my cleric hit 40. It was fun. I made money off of it (cuz I only opened the boxes about 10 times, and then only cuz the first 3 out of 4 of those times I got extasy, excitement cards and thus was under the impresson they had a better drop rate than they did.) I don't do anymore cuz of the camping or if I do it's really late at night because I'm up anyway.

Kirstiein - Sanctuary

I do the cube everyday and have for about a year now. I personally rarely get pked outside of rooms 14/34. My char is a cleric so she can be easily killed by a psy atk char. I personally can careless about the rooms being pk enabled. With one exception that being room 45. Having this room pk enabled is stupid, as most players use there macros that have aoes in them. The other day I started doing the cube on my veno. And I accedently killed someone with Noxious Gas that is part of my all purpose atk macro. Having said that. If given the choice I would prefer a non pk enabled cube, but if had both options I would sometimes choose to go pk enabled run for an added challenge, but thats not the case. I find the cube being pk enabled in weird rooms part of the fun, as it forces you too pay attention. I am a pve player but I have found that pvp has greatly improved my ability to adapt to verious challenges in pve. Example of this would be: I go into oht get atked by serveral mobs, if it wasnt for my exp with dealing with this in tw I would have surely died, but I prevailed. As for those who camp and kill in cube for no reason, I do feel this is mean, and I personally will never do it. But without this added inconveince the cube would get dull. So in my personal believe its a nessary evil.

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary

Kirstiein - Sanctuary wrote: »

its a nessary evil.

From all the posts i read in this thread so far, above quote seems like the best way to describe The PK enablement in cube.

Take away the enablement and what do you get?
The same thing as FCC, BH and oracles.
And easy, breeze through it instance/situation to gain a quick fix of exp.(never mind the fact it's a drop in the ocean compared to what fcc gives. it's exp afterall, more exp than a simple "quest" )

FCC is being bashed on because of the glitch and the ease it made people lvl.
BH's have been bashed on cause of the same reason + alot of lovemail as well.
Oracles.. well we all know how most people think about that.

Majority screams PW is unfair yet at the same time when it does pose a decent challange their being too hard/difficult ?b:surrender