Demon QS (not as great as I thought)

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Comments

  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Last time I checked... the slowest cleric can move at 4.8 m/s It takes aim low 1.6s to fire.

    I think you should check again, one of your numbers are wrong. Actually, both of them are wrong.

    Edit: here are some details...

    First off, casting time happens after the attack goes off, not before.

    Second, if you wear a channelling ring (and many archers do, and I expect this includes you Kiyoshi), this reduces the time you need to launch aim low.

    And, finally, clerics can go slower, especially if they want to (like if they were being silly, or if they had been hit by a slowing skill).

    But for your substantial point -- that someone walking into range would be able to counter-attack. If that is an issue for you, you can holy path out of range and back to shooting range. This loses a little time, but not much. (A much bigger issue is when the person is immune to freeze.)
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think you should check again, one of your numbers are wrong. Actually, both of them are wrong.

    Edit: here are some details...

    First off, casting time happens after the attack goes off, not before.

    Second, if you wear a channelling ring (and many archers do, and I expect this includes you Kiyoshi), this reduces the time you need to launch aim low.

    And, finally, clerics can go slower, especially if they want to (like if they were being silly, or if they had been hit by a slowing skill).

    But for your substantial point -- that someone walking into range would be able to counter-attack. If that is an issue for you, you can holy path out of range and back to shooting range. This loses a little time, but not much. (A much bigger issue is when the person is immune to freeze.)

    ....


    ....















    ....






    6% channeling is the most any archer should ever have and that is because of a rank 9 ring. That is a whole 0.288 meters you managed to gain!
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Second, if you wear a channelling ring (and many archers do, and I expect this includes you Kiyoshi), this reduces the time you need to launch aim low.

    First mana drain... now channel for archers. Whatever channel archer get is a side effect of the real stats. But anyways... even mention of this pretty much wins any argument for me.
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And, finally, clerics can go slower, especially if they want to (like if they were being silly, or if they had been hit by a slowing skill).

    Like I said... anything you do involves someone (usually many many more someones) else on your side. While your target never have any back up.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    6% channeling is the most any archer should ever have and that is because of a rank 9 ring. That is a whole 0.288 meters you managed to gain!

    Actually... just to be nit picky like flerui... its 7% (6% ring + 1% tome). Then again... any archer who is keeping track of his -chan should be dragged out and shot by the real archers.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    6% channeling is the most any archer should ever have and that is because of a rank 9 ring. That is a whole 0.288 meters you managed to gain!

    Ok, I understand that you think rank 9 archers that also wear their rank 8 ring and Love up and Down are fail.

    I really do appreciate your sharing this insight with me.

    But that still does not make aim low take 1.6 seconds before it delivers damage.
  • ProtocoI - Harshlands
    ProtocoI - Harshlands Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    -7% channeling and y'all see that as substantial evidence to make this "aim low" argument?

    God the archers these days are fail beyond belief... First saying sage is a better way to go then Demon now trying to make "Channeling Archers". Shoot while you're at it why don't you go HA, add 15 magic for using your elven wings without mana reduction and put the rest of ur stats in vit, you playing this class is a joke already; why hold back now?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    ProtocoI - Harshlands wrote: »
    -7% channeling and y'all see that as substantial evidence to make this "aim low" argument?

    Which argument? the argument that take aim does not take 1.6 seconds?
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Which argument? the argument that take aim does not take 1.6 seconds?

    No one cares if aim low takes 1.6 seconds or even 1 seconds. The whole point is anyone walking toward you can get within 30 meters before aim low fires. Which makes your original argument that you can lock people outside of retaliation range pure bs. Considering that between the two of us... I am the only (likely) one with the ranked -chan ring. You may want to think about that YOU are capable of... instead of what others are capable of. You can have the best theories for all I care... but if you can't apply them... you might well have ****.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    No one cares if aim low takes 1.6 seconds

    Interestingly enough, somebody named Kiyoshi asserted:
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Last time I checked... the slowest cleric can move at 4.8 m/s It takes aim low 1.6s to fire.

    And it's not really my problem if you bring up subjects you care nothing about.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Interestingly enough, somebody named Kiyoshi asserted:



    And it's not really my problem if you bring up subjects you care nothing about.

    Funny how the only thing you can do is nit pick at everything in a vein attempt to throw people off. Even if take aim fires after 1 seconds. The said cleric would have closed from 34 meters to 29.2 meters. An archer in the same position would already made it pass the 29 meters mark. But nevertheless... its nice for you to point out that my calculation is off by 6% of a whole second. Some difference that's going to make.

    You know how I know a sage archer can't lock another archer outside of retaliation range? I didn't do it through calculations or theories. I fired take aim at someone who was walking toward me and he freaking shot back with his level 10 winged blessing.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Funny how the only thing you can do is nit pick at everything in a vein attempt to throw people off. Even if take aim fires after 1 seconds. The said cleric would have closed from 34 meters to 29.2 meters.

    And that can be dealt with.

    The cleric is not a wizard, and needs time to launch sleep. So my concern would typically be being able to stun the cleric, or holy path out of range, before the cleric sleeps me. Or, if I have reason to believe that the cleric is out of immunes, I can use an instant stun.

    Something similar happens with archers. For example, if I have alacrity active, I can launch a freeze and walk out of range. And so on...

    And it's even better in TW where people frequently are low on genie, apoth and/or chi.

    And, yes, this does not always work. But nothing always works.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And it's even better in TW where people frequently are low on genie, apoth and/or chi.

    Yes. Other people tend to be low on genie/apoc/whatever... but yet you always seems to have everything on cool down.
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And, yes, this does not always work. But nothing always works.

    Of course nothing always works... but you know whats the difference between the stuff I said and the stuff you said. My stuff will work 99% of the time (aka. activate one skill and fire a single arrow). While your stuff won't work even 1% of the time (aka. have 10 skills all proac, enmass hordes of venos, have a sin force the target to use all defense skills and leave him on the verge of death).
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Of course nothing always works... but you know whats the difference between the stuff I said and the stuff you said. My stuff will work 99% of the time (aka. activate one skill and fire a single arrow). While your stuff won't work even 1% of the time (aka. have 10 skills all proac, enmass hordes of venos, have a sin force the target to use all defense skills and leave him on the verge of death).

    I am not sure which "stuff" you are talking about here, but its not all the same.

    But I am sort of thinking you are confusing a scenario I proposed, for "forum simplified presentation of well geared archer can sometimes die to someone with not such great gear" with some kind of general advice. That was not general advice, it was an attempt to show that something someone said could not happen could in fact happen.
  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And that can be dealt with.

    Something similar happens with archers. For example, if I have alacrity active, I can launch a freeze and walk out of range. And so on...

    And it's even better in TW where people frequently are low on genie, apoth and/or chi.

    And, yes, this does not always work. But nothing always works.

    Archers now freeze? b:chuckle
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
    Leeching CQ salary since 09'
    Many names, Common Faces.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I am not sure which "stuff" you are talking about here, but its not all the same.

    But I am sort of thinking you are confusing a scenario I proposed, for "forum simplified presentation of well geared archer can sometimes die to someone with not such great gear" with some kind of general advice. That was not general advice, it was an attempt to show that something someone said could not happen could in fact happen.

    lets see... myriad rainbow debuff 25% chance... nova 67% chance... nix stun 25% chance. you have a 4% chance of all three of those going off 1 after another. if i add in everything else you mentioned you will be lucky of having a 1% chance. this is not the movies. in real life if you only have 1% success rate and 99% death rate... its call your ****ed... not a blockbuster.

    my post... genie remove stun 90% chance... pot remove status 100%... hit you with first hit 95% (assuming pvp robe evasion of 5%). thats a 85% chance of happening all within the first 2 seconds.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    It's all about the...HEART OF THE HAREM!!! The right debuff...WILL GO OFF!
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    Archers now freeze? b:chuckle

    aim low freezes, despite how the skill description claims it stuns. but you knew this.

    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    lets see... myriad rainbow

    Kiyoshi...

    The problem we have is that when I say something you do not have a clue what I am talking about, and then when you talk about that -- about what you think I am talking about -- I do not have a clue what you are talking about.

    So let's start over:

    There is exactly one place I know of, where a TT99+5 crossbow can make a battle take less time than a r9+12 bow.

    This whole sidetrack we have been doing back and forth on, including the thing with the demon veno, has been boiling off of tangents from that single concept.

    Now, since you did not understand it before, and because this is getting really old, and since I know you will never ask a meaningful question about this issue, let me try to spell it out for you:

    First, this is a PvE situation.

    Second, the time saved is only a second or two.

    Third, a big part of the time savings is that the r9+12 bow is going to do half damage in that battle.

    Fourth, the remainder of the time savings is reduced travel time.

    Do you understand that this combination of half damage from the bow with combined reduced movement time can make an encounter slightly faster with the crossbow?

    Do you really think I was saying that the crossbow was universally better than the r9+12?

    This is so sad.

    And it's even worse that I did not realize what you were doing.

    *bonks head*
  • Rfskkirby - Sanctuary
    Rfskkirby - Sanctuary Posts: 357 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There is exactly one place I know of, where a TT99+5 crossbow can make a battle take less time than a r9+12 bow.

    oh please let us know where.

    2nd, you claim that u can freeze a cleric outside their range so u can run back and stay out of their range so u can shoot without them retaliating. why waste time running out of range when that clerics is most likely gonna die if u shot a few more shots at it.

    3rd, theres genie + apoc, your scenario is unrealistic unless ur fighting some idiot with full r9 sitting there taking stuff up his ***. <-- more likely to happen than your scenario
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There is exactly one place I know of, where a TT99+5 crossbow can make a battle take less time than a r9+12 bow.

    Yeah the situation is:


    TT99+5 crossbow triples + attacks.
    Rank 9 +12 goes to eat dinner.




    Never going to happen otherwise.


    Rank 9 +12 has at least 94 attack levels
    TT99+5 has 30 attack levels +- a few from ornaments (assume cube necklace)



    1 shot of a rank 9 +12 is equivalent to 3 or more shots of a TT99+5.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There is exactly one place I know of, where a TT99+5 crossbow can make a battle take less time than a r9+12 bow.

    You really going out of your way to make yourself look like an idiot aren't you. Is this going to be a 1 on 1 comparison... or should I be expecting a couple dozen add on?
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Kiyoshi and Fleuri should get married! b:dirty

    Server separation shall not stop this love!
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Back to kitchen you owe me cake. b:angry
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Cake? I want some of this cake!
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Kiyoshi and Fleuri should get married! b:dirty

    Server separation shall not stop this love!

    Yea... after i get a brains, skills, and common sense prenup. I got everything to lose and nothing to gain.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    I agree with Ruvil! Despite Kiyoshi's insults, Fleuri doggedly argues on, just to see his name on forums again! Never has she been this patient, NEVER HAS SHE BEEN THIS PERSISTENT! Despite dismissing all of her arguments and self-assured of his own superiority, Kiyoshi always come back for more! This is the feisty little bird that he has never been able to conquer, and he can't get her off of his mind! LONG LIVE DEMON QS!

    Ruvil always has cake for everyone! <3
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    I am totally up for some of that Ruvil cake. b:dirty
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Rfskkirby - Sanctuary wrote: »
    oh please let us know where.

    Do I really have to be explaining rudimentary pve game play to you?

    So, ok: Aba, soloing, tower boss. 36m range can fight it from on the ground. Others have to climb out of the water after.

    Arguable issues include waiting for aggro to end before leaving (if you do not wait you get into other complications) and using holy path to get out of the water (because that gets into using cloud eruption and losing wings of protection speed boost and total time in return to party).

    But those arguable issues do not really matter, for that battle, since you can get higher refines than +5 where you cannot get higher refines than +12. So, that's a battle where sage range on an otherwise inferior weapon can out perform r9+12.

    So the real argument is that that battle is not representative of combat in general. Because it is not. So I made the one quip once upon a time and then forgot about it. Or I tried to forget about it. You can thank Kiyoshi, with his wonderful abundance of common sense, for keeping it live.

    And, for the real topic of this thread: personally, I do not like cake. Sweet stuff like that makes me feel bad when I eat it. It's almost like I am borderline diabetic, but I have never been diagnosed with diabetes. Probably its psychosomatic? (I'm such a barrel of laughs, are I not?)

    b:shutup
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Do I really have to be explaining rudimentary pve game play to you?

    So, ok: Aba, soloing, tower boss. 36m range can fight it from on the ground. Others have to climb out of the water after.

    Arguable issues include waiting for aggro to end before leaving (if you do not wait you get into other complications) and using holy path to get out of the water (because that gets into using cloud eruption and losing wings of protection speed boost and total time in return to party).

    But those arguable issues do not really matter, for that battle, since you can get higher refines than +5 where you cannot get higher refines than +12. So, that's a battle where sage range on an otherwise inferior weapon can out perform r9+12.

    So the real argument is that that battle is not representative of combat in general. Because it is not. So I made the one quip once upon a time and then forgot about it. Or I tried to forget about it. You can thank Kiyoshi, with his wonderful abundance of common sense, for keeping it live.

    And, for the real topic of this thread: personally, I do not like cake. Sweet stuff like that makes me feel bad when I eat it. It's almost like I am borderline diabetic, but I have never been diagnosed with diabetes. Probably its psychosomatic? (I'm such a barrel of laughs, are I not?)

    b:shutup

    Or the rank 9 archer just pops demon QS on the tower from the bridge killing it before the tarded mobs can find the bridge, waits, sets antistun> barrage killing everything includeing the 7 venos hideign in the shadows waiting to mana leak and purge.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Do I really have to be explaining rudimentary pve game play to you?

    So, ok: Aba, soloing, tower boss. 36m range can fight it from on the ground. Others have to climb out of the water after.

    Arguable issues include waiting for aggro to end before leaving (if you do not wait you get into other complications) and using holy path to get out of the water (because that gets into using cloud eruption and losing wings of protection speed boost and total time in return to party).

    But those arguable issues do not really matter, for that battle, since you can get higher refines than +5 where you cannot get higher refines than +12. So, that's a battle where sage range on an otherwise inferior weapon can out perform r9+12.

    LOL. I stop avoiding any/all mobs all together in abaddon when I got my r8... including the mobs on your way there. I find it its faster for me to kill them with 3 hits then to wait for them to walk away and sneak pass. Maybe before you make assumption about how the other half lives... you should take a peek at their lifestyle.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    .... Or you just run past them all, keep running, jump into water and reset them, kill the tower, and run back.

    Still waiting for cake from Ruvil. Though apparently now there are two. And my do they look delicious!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Kerona - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Still waiting for cake from Ruvil. Though apparently now there are two. And my do they look delicious!

    The cake is a lie D:
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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