Demon QS (not as great as I thought)

Ruvil - Sanctuary

ok so QS not 100% proc awesome.

for pk it doesnt even matter. (well obviously 100% QS would be rapage)

mag marrowed bm, fire QS, QS does not proc

1) stand and continue to fire normal shots
2) anti stun and try QS again
3) run and try QS again
4) fly and try QS again
5) other options obviously exist but 1 is **** and 2 3 4 are simple,easily doable, and spammable (3 and 4 atleast)

archer vs archer (demons)
QS does not proc SH*T! IMA STAND AND CONTINUE TO FIRE NORMAL SHOTS ... ...

from a pure number/theory perspective the fact that QS is not 100% proc matters. but if someone (idk if anyone has said or will say so) tries to apply this to PK and say well you're decreasing your damage output b/c the cast time of QS and you may not even get the speed bonus, then yea... go practice more.

obviously dmg output is decreased compared to an analysis that does not include the cast time of QS. Is also obvious that damage output is increased when QS does proc, unless ur stupid and are shooting someone who's right next to you and about to ruin your day. Lastly if QS doesn't proc and your NOT going to kill your opponent before they mess you up then you don't continue to stand there firing normal shots -.-

This thread seems really dumb, despite all the "smartness" in it >_> all numbers and math aside *gasp* Demon QS kicks *** in PK.

are we really trying to debate this? ^ or is there some other point to this thread?

Quilue - Sanctuary

The point is Ruvipie is awesome b:dirty

but small boobed :<

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wouldent it be an even more exagerated amp at 5.4....

No.

Here's a hypothetical sequence of attacks, sage and demon, both with base 1.05 attack rate:

sage: take aim cancelled, normal attack, normal attack, normal attack, take aim cancelled, normal attack, normal attack

demon: quickshot (proc), normal attack (repeat)

Let's assume it takes 0.2 seconds to cancel take aim and let's assume that it takes all but 0.4 seconds of normal attack before attack lands. Also, let's assume that take aim does not hit until its casting time is over. I do not know if my assumptions are accurate, but I think they will not be too far wrong. Let's also give both sage and demon -13% channelling gear (which will not help the sage one bit for this attack sequence).

I am going to ignore stun -- let's imagine that the opponent has anti-stun up. I am also going to ignore the opponent actions, so let's say our archers also have anti-stun up and that our opponent feels optimistic.

0.8 seconds. Sage archer hits. charm ticks, damage irrelevant. (cancelled take aim)
0.87 seconds. Demon archer hits, charm ticks, damage irrelevant (quickshot procs)

1.35 seconds. Sage archer hits.
2.17 seconds. Demon archer hits.

2.3 seconds. Sage archer hits
2.87 seconds. Demon archer hits

3.25 seconds. Sage archer hits
3.57 seconds. Demon archer hits

4.27 seconds. Demon archer hits
4.45 seconds. Sage archer hits (cancelled take aim)

4.97 seconds. Demon archer hits
5 seconds. Sage archer hits

5.67 seconds. Demon archer hits
5.95 seconds. Sage archer hits

6.37 seconds. Demon archer hits
6.9 seconds. Sage archer hits

7.07 seconds. Demon archer hits (and proc ended)

8.02 seconds. Demon archer hits
8.1 seconds. Sage archer hits (cancelled take aim)

Pretty sweet, yes? an extra shot.

Meanwhile sage is doing an average of 6.5% damage per shot after taking into account demon's extra crit chance. Multiply that by the seven attacks that mattered before the extra shot and you can see that this extra shot takes the sage average damage bonus (45.5% of a shot) and totally reverses the total damage advantage, giving 55.5% of a shot bonus to the demon. Except the sage probably got an extra 33% of weapon damage from that cancelled take aim, which is something like 8% of a shot. But, still, 48% of a shot is nothing to sneeze at.

But the real advantage happens 4.27 seconds into the attack sequence, where the demon's attack lands first. And if that was the deciding shot, in an archer battle, demon would have won. Or maybe that would have been a tie, since the sage archer's take aim succeeded at 3.85 seconds and we had a 0.6 second delay before the damage hit.

But 4.97 seconds? Clear advantage there. Except that's a 0.03 second advantage and randomness in network lag will trump that one. But if you start the timer when the first shot landed, you can shave an extra 0.07 seconds from the demon's times. That would turn this shot into a 0.10 second advantage for the demon archer.

5.67 seconds into this hypothetical competition though, we can see our demon archer pulling ahead.

Since this was hypothetical, I should list the ways I am aware of where I could have gotten these numbers wrong:

I have assumed that archer normal attack happens 0.4 seconds before the end of the normal attack interval. I have assumed that take aim damage happens when its casting time ends. I have assumed that cancelling take aim takes 0.2 seconds. I have assumed that a 1.05 archer with demon quickshot proc gets a 1.43 attack rate. That's a lot of assumptions and I would imagine I got one of them wrong.

Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »

are we really trying to debate this? ^ or is there some other point to this thread?

From my point of view, the question is not "is quickshot awesome". Instead, I would be asking: "How awesome is quickshot?"

You cannot shoot during quickshot's 0.6 seconds casting time. And that's a big deal for a skill that's all about shooting fast for a short time. I do not think you can ignore its 1 second channeling time, either (or 0.87 seconds, if the archer has the gear for that).

But tactics? I think you have a point: when quickshot does not proc you can go do something else, like kite. But your opponent can also be doing something else.

But I do not know about 1v1 tactics, so i will stop here.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, because the archer you are comparing to has a head start on you. The attack they had started lands within your 5.4 second interval.

So even though you get a 2 shot bonus, over what you could have done in 5.4 seconds, you do not get a 2 shot bonus over the other archer.



For my part: I agree that quickshot is awesome. But we have been talking about how awesome it is.

You cannot shoot during quickshot's 0.6 seconds casting time. And that's a big deal for a skill that's all about shooting fast for a short time.

But tactics? I think you have a point: when quickshot does not proc you can go do something else, like kite. But your opponent can also be doing something else.

But I do not know about 1v1 tactics, only TW tactics. And in TW, ... things get chaotic, and I might not be the best judge of events. But my current impression is that I get taken down either by a group of people or by an assassin that dedicates himself to attacking me (and even then does not always succeed, but currently succeeds far too often).

Demon Qs mainly a 1v1 pvp skill

A head start on what?

If you fire demon QS at 60% hp or as you proc a control skill there is no "loss" of cast time as the only time that matters is the 10 seconds of damage you have before the oponenets charm ticks.

TW its tab target and focus fire who cares abotu more than your weapon refine

Pve = barrage or claws

So your attempting to debate a skills usefullness in the one aspect of the game you admitedly lack experiance in.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

A head start on what?

If you fire demon QS at 60% hp or as you proc a control skill there is no "loss" of cast time as the only time that matters is the 10 seconds of damage you have before the oponenets charm ticks.

I have edited my post to make my point easier to understand.

I had meant to edit this one, but oh well... I am half asleep, I make mistakes.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

TW its tab target and focus fire who cares abotu more than your weapon refine

I have been losing approximately 230k health an hour off my guardian charm in tw, and a lot of that has been surviving long enough to kite.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »

are we really trying to debate this? ^ or is there some other point to this thread?

People just try to justify "being sage". Its kinda sad when people havent try the skill and talk about it. Sharptooth < stun/qs < qs/stun .. Its probably #1 Combo to take any real factor.

But meh .6 sec waste of my life casting QS!~ Lets not cast skills at all and normal shoot! We loosing to much time casting skills. In fact, lets just run around the map~!

P.S. new idea.. Arcane armor with full Channeling gear. Imagine spam QS in less than .6 sec.. Zomg Will be almost instant cast! Rank9 Arcane gives so much mdef. Round up the numbers.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

P.S. new idea.. Arcane armor with full Channeling gear. Imagine spam QS in less than .6 sec.. Zomg Will be almost instant cast! Rank9 Arcane gives so much mdef. Round up the numbers.

Except, 0.6 seconds was casting time, not channelling time. Channelling gear does nothing about casting time.

Meanwhile, for someone with a 1.43 attack rate, 0.7 seconds is a shot. So 0.6 seconds would almost be like missing an entire shot.

/ es - Heavens Tear32

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Except, 0.6 seconds was casting time, not channelling time. Channelling gear does nothing about casting time.

Meanwhile, for someone with a 1.43 attack rate, 0.7 seconds is a shot. So 0.6 seconds would almost be like missing an entire shot.

go use the skill before posting all this bs mathmatics.

simple thing is demon QS is worth it, combine it with demon stunning arrow and your pretty much **** anything you fire on when it procs. iv dropped 16k+ HP BMs in less than 8 seconds with a +7 R8 bow useing these 2 skills even when they dont use marrow.

there really is no point in trying to compete sage with demon as an archer when its so simple to see Demon > Sage.

aps has prety much proven this, fast hard shots > slow powerful shots.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Why is this thread still going? Why are you people still doing math? Anyone with practical experience of what its like to have QS proc and stack with crits can tell you that it is effective(even if they have no idea of the mechanics behind why it is). What it looks like to me is that this is not only an attempt to defend sage, but also a shot at putting down demon for one of the reasons many consider it a better choice than sage. It was clear earlier on that the issue would turn into that. The original argument was "couldn't I just use windshield instead" which sounds viable, but negates other genie usage and isn't quite a replacement for the near spammable QS. Now what's the argument about?

Fleuri - Sanctuary

[QUOTE=/
es - Heavens Tear;13937771]go use the skill before posting all this bs mathmatics.[/quote]

And I think you should go try the sage version before calling the math bs.

[QUOTE=/
es - Heavens Tear;13937771]simple thing is demon QS is worth it, combine it with demon stunning arrow and your pretty much **** anything you fire on when it procs. iv dropped 16k+ HP BMs in less than 8 seconds with a +7 R8 bow useing these 2 skills even when they dont use marrow.[/QUOTE]

So... yes... I think that "the math" says that that's an excellent way to build up damage. (But I think that getting the blademaster to hold still for that is the real issue.)

[QUOTE=/
es - Heavens Tear;13937771]there really is no point in trying to compete sage with demon as an archer when its so simple to see Demon > Sage.

aps has prety much proven this, fast hard shots > slow powerful shots.[/QUOTE]

And I feel that your hand waving is truly beautiful.

b:chuckle

Quilue - Sanctuary

Since you mention spamming Take Aim, let's talk about latency...I don't know about you but typical ping for me is about 150ms...that's in the green and that's nice and all, but that's 0.15s.

Lag from starting Take Aim during a normal attack sequence shouldn't affect anything, because if you start Take Aim too late you should just carry out an attack and cast Take Aim afterward, however in canceling you have to add extra time due to lag. In all other situations you wouldn't count in lag, but you're talking about auto attacks compared with skill spam that requires user input to cancel charging, so it's got to play a factor.

/ es - Heavens Tear32

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

And I think you should go try the sage version before calling the math bs.

i have a sage archer friend, i know the skills and know the damage not much tbh they miss out on alot of crit rate and archers need the crit and attack speed

So... yes... I think that "the math" says that that's an excellent way to build up damage. (But I think that getting the blademaster to hold still for that is the real issue.)

dont tell me you dont know how to keep a BM in place? ever heard of aim low after draining there genie? but after reading about you loosing to a average geared bm.. i guess not.

And I feel that your hand waving is truly beautiful.

after seeing loads of sage archers and how they opperate for the past 2.5 years.... yes i think i know what im talking about

b:chuckle

keep the math bs out the game theres too many things to factor in to base anything on maths

Anfisa - Lost City

[QUOTE=/
es - Heavens Tear;13938971]keep the math bs out the game theres too many things to factor in to base anything on maths [/QUOTE]
Hi, welcome to the archer forums.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Since you mention spamming Take Aim, let's talk about latency...I don't know about you but typical ping for me is about 150ms...that's in the green and that's nice and all, but that's 0.15s.

Lag from starting Take Aim during a normal attack sequence shouldn't affect anything, because if you start Take Aim too late you should just carry out an attack and cast Take Aim afterward, however in canceling you have to add extra time due to lag. In all other situations you wouldn't count in lag, but you're talking about auto attacks compared with skill spam that requires user input to cancel charging, so it's got to play a factor.

Yes that's a good point.

So, I assumed 0.2 seconds to cancel take aim.

I do not know if that assumption was correct, but my experiences suggest that its reasonably close.

But when I posted that this morning, I was sleepy and I said 0.2 seconds to cancel quickshot, which was utterly bogus -- no one cancels quickshot, and my example was based on cancelling take aim. For some reason, though, nobody called me on that.

I think this means no one understand the subjects I write about, but my mistakes certainly do not help anyone.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes that's a good point.

So, I assumed 0.2 seconds to cancel take aim.

I do not know if that assumption was correct, but my experiences suggest that its reasonably close.

But when I posted that this morning, I was sleepy and I said 0.2 seconds to cancel quickshot, which was utterly bogus -- no one cancels quickshot, and my example was based on cancelling take aim. For some reason, though, nobody called me on that.

I think this means no one understand the subjects I write about, but my mistakes certainly do not help anyone.

I think nobody cares at this point.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think nobody cares at this point.

People without a +10 or above weapon should not be arguing about the usefulness of ANY skill.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

People without a +10 or above weapon should not be arguing about the usefulness of ANY skill.

Right this is why I normaly never agree with you

weapon refine =/= grasp of game mechanics.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Right this is why I normaly never agree with you

weapon refine =/= grasp of game mechanics.

And like I have said... you can be the most skilled player on the game. But if someone can afk tank your hit... then you aren't going to accomplish anything. Skills is only to separate those of comparable gears... its not going to do jack when you try to kill a +12 r9 with a puny +5 tt99.

There is only a handful of people on the server that would require me to actually time my skills to kill. Everyone else can be killed by holding down my regular attack key.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And like I have said... you can be the most skilled player on the game. But if someone can afk tank your hit... then you aren't going to accomplish anything. Skills is only to separate those of comparable gears... its not going to do jack when you try to kill a +12 r9 with a puny +5 tt99.

Except, if you are holding a +12 weapon that is not enough in and of itself to keep someone from killing you with a +5 tt99 (or +5 lunar, or +5 frost, or whatever).

I would agree with you if you were saying that they might have problems if they have that kind of gear. And if you are of nearly equal skill levels it's extremely likely that the person with the weaker gear loses.

But not all +5 tt99 weapons are equivalent and not all classes are equivalent, and so on. It might very well be that you can afk tank one person with gear that fits that description where another take you down in a few seconds if you were afk.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And like I have said... you can be the most skilled player on the game. But if someone can afk tank your hit... then you aren't going to accomplish anything. Skills is only to separate those of comparable gears... its not going to do jack when you try to kill a +12 r9 with a puny +5 tt99.

There is only a handful of people on the server that would require me to actually time my skills to kill. Everyone else can be killed by holding down my regular attack key.

Prety much true. Shinzoko spams poison arrow on people and serrated n other **** skills.. he is sage. But he always had highest/best gear available since game start it. +10/12 etc...
He never kites, he never bothers to run away.. just straight tanks everyone n pops immune pots. Does it work.. Yes for the most part.. since $ > skills in the game.

I really dont know if he spam those skills for lols or he actually think their good.. <_< But money wins in this game.

P.s. most people think shinz is bad overall.. cause he never kites and tanks 5-7 people and dies accomplishing nothing.(The way he played use to work back when +10 was expensive.)

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Except, if you are holding a +12 weapon that is not enough in and of itself to keep someone from killing you with a +5 tt99 (or +5 lunar, or +5 frost, or whatever).

I would agree with you if you were saying that they might have problems if they have that kind of gear. And if you are of nearly equal skill levels it's extremely likely that the person with the weaker gear loses.

But not all +5 tt99 weapons are equivalent and not all classes are equivalent, and so on. It might very well be that you can afk tank one person with gear that fits that description where another take you down in a few seconds if you were afk.

Stop dreaming +5 weapons can kill +10 rank9s with +12 weapons. You just talk to much and have no experience. Seriously..

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Prety much true. Shinzoko spams poison arrow on people and serrated n other **** skills.. he is sage. But he always had highest/best gear available since game start it. +10/12 etc...
He never kites, he never bothers to run away.. just straight tanks everyone n pops immune pots. Does it work.. Yes for the most part.. since $ > skills in the game.

...


Stop dreaming +5 weapons can kill +10 rank9s with +12 weapons. You just talk to much and have no experience. Seriously..

Yes, I suppose if I am disagreeing with you, I am by definition talking too much.

Nevertheless I know someone (not me, someone else) that can outlast him on immune time, can move faster than him, and with +5 gear has killed the richest catabarbs on the server in melee. Thought, debuffs and gear that increases rate of attack can make +5 tt99 do some interesting things.

Channman - Lost City

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Prety much true. Shinzoko spams poison arrow on people and serrated n other **** skills.. he is sage. But he always had highest/best gear available since game start it. +10/12 etc...
He never kites, he never bothers to run away.. just straight tanks everyone n pops immune pots. Does it work.. Yes for the most part.. since $ > skills in the game.

I really dont know if he spam those skills for lols or he actually think their good.. <_< But money wins in this game.

P.s. most people think shinz is bad overall.. cause he never kites and tanks 5-7 people and dies accomplishing nothing.(The way he played use to work back when +10 was expensive.)






Stop dreaming +5 weapons can kill +10 rank9s with +12 weapons. You just talk to much and have no experience. Seriously..

i use those skills from time to time when i want someone to attack me or im bored

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

I dont know man, that mana burn is some srious ****. One min I'm needing my mana desperately for all the skill spamming i always do(I do no regular hit) and then the next minute....like, I have to use a pot.

I'm really bored.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Except, if you are holding a +12 weapon that is not enough in and of itself to keep someone from killing you with a +5 tt99 (or +5 lunar, or +5 frost, or whatever).

I would agree with you if you were saying that they might have problems if they have that kind of gear. And if you are of nearly equal skill levels it's extremely likely that the person with the weaker gear loses.

But not all +5 tt99 weapons are equivalent and not all classes are equivalent, and so on. It might very well be that you can afk tank one person with gear that fits that description where another take you down in a few seconds if you were afk.

full r9 set more or less voids its attacker's 30 atk blessing. You think a +5 lunar bow with its damage range in the 10k area. would stand up against a +12 r9 bow with over 20k raw damage... and a 93 base attack levels? even lets compare resistance... full r9 set has a extra of about 10% more physical resistance then tt99. i can **** in your general direction and kill you.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, I suppose if I am disagreeing with you, I am by definition talking too much.

Nevertheless I know someone (not me, someone else) that can outlast him on immune time, can move faster than him, and with +5 gear has killed the richest catabarbs on the server in melee. Thought, debuffs and gear that increases rate of attack can make +5 tt99 do some interesting things.

Really now... richest cata barbs in tiger form can have over 40k hp. Care to name this so call someone who can take down 40k hp with a +5 tt99 or even lunar?

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

full r9 set more or less voids its attacker's 30 atk blessing.

Did Fleuri mention something? Oh yeah, she said 'Except, if you are holding a +12 weapon that is not enough in and of itself to keep someone from killing you with a +5 tt99 (or +5 lunar, or +5 frost, or whatever).'

No where in that does it mention armour b:bye

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

its not going to do jack when you try to kill a +12 r9 with a puny +5 tt99.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

Did Fleuri mention something? Oh yeah, she said 'Except, if you are holding a +12 weapon that is not enough in and of itself to keep someone from killing you with a +5 tt99 (or +5 lunar, or +5 frost, or whatever).'

No where in that does it mention armour b:bye

And let me quote my original post for the two idiots. when does "+12 r9" turn in to "+12 r9 weapon only". Common sense would dictate that anyone with +12 r9 bow would at least have r9 armor of various refines as well.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And let me quote my original post for the two idiots. when does "+12 r9" turn in to "+12 r9 weapon only". Common sense would dictate that anyone with +12 r9 bow would at least have r9 armor of various refines as well.

What Fleuri was trying to say has gone over your head completely.

The point she was making was, R9 +12 armour by itself is not enough, because you're still gonna get killed by people with TT99, which is true.

INexperience - Raging Tide

Sage Take Aim one of the cheapest skills in the market, and I still think its more useful then Demon QS. Though sometimes I envy my brother with his Demon STA, QS, Stun combo b:cry. Depends on how your gameplay is really

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

INexperience - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sage Take Aim one of the cheapest skills in the market, and I still think its more useful then Demon QS. Though sometimes I envy my brother with his Demon STA, QS, Stun combo b:cry. Depends on how your gameplay is really

no.

5char

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

What Fleuri was trying to say has gone over your head completely.

The point she was making was, R9 +12 armour by itself is not enough, because you're still gonna get killed by people with TT99, which is true.

an archer with full set of +12 armor will be flirting with 14k UNBUFFED hp (pending his hat and cape has somewhat similar refines)... without any hp shards. the physical resistance itself should be around 55% unbuffed. Since cv are stronger then tt99 bows... i'll even throw in a +5 cv bow for you. From what I remember +5 cv's damage range runs from 6-9k with pure dex and twin attack rings. Even if you manage to hit the max range every shot... each of your hits would do 1k. you'll need 14 non crit max damage hits to kill an unbuffed r9 archer. at .8 aps 14 hits would come out to be about 18 seconds. even if you factor in demon quickshot and crits... the r9 archer got to be DEAD ASLEEP for you to even remotely kill him. oh... and lets not forget there is still 24 slots of possibly def shard or hp gems unaccounted for in my example.

Now lets switch to the 40k hp barb with 75% unbuffed physical and 50% unbuffed magical resistance. It'll take 70 regular non-crit high end shots to kill him at the cost of 90 seconds. even with archer metal attacks (considering an archer can only pull off 4 metal attacks in a 10 second window). Each of those metal attack better be dealing 10k damage each to make the kill. And let me tell you this... even a +12 r9 with twin garnet gems can't do 10k metal damage on a barb.

The only hope of anyone with a +5 cv/tt99 weapon in killing a geared out r9 player... is to pray that someone else already ticked his charm AND got his hp down.