Demon QS (not as great as I thought)
Comments
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Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
2m / frozen = wait until freeze ends
This is not likely initially, because of genie skills, but sometimes you can pull it off. And, yes, here the 2m matters only when you are facing another archer. Anyways, this combo is overpowered so it should be difficult and rare.
2m of freeze against another archer... don't be an idiot. Even with the 2 meter of advantage... you'll never to freeze another archer (if he is moving toward you) with aim low outside of the 32 meter range... hell even 30 meters is impossible. Skills doesn't not start to channel until target it actually within range... if said target is moving toward you. Only an idiot can assume no distance is covered in the 1.5 seconds before aim low fires. In that 1.5 seconds its enough for even level 10 winged blessing archer to reach you. This combo is pure stupidity... unless of course you think the 25% chance of seal is going to happen every time. Waste of spark and still get hit.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Actually I think the extra range is pretty meaningful.
Casters typically have a 27m to 30m range on their skills while demon archer is 32m and sage is 34m. Now if you engage near your max distance it is possible to stun or freeze an opponent in that dead zone where they can't attack back. This means they have to first break the freeze/stun and then move into their attack range before they have an option of retaliating.
For demons this doesn't happen often because typically a caster will move into their own attack range before the skill connects but with sage they have a greater distance to cover and so it should happen more often.
If you look at the width of these zones, demon enjoys a 5m-2m advantage while sage is 7m-4m. If you look at the area of them (an annulus), demon is 295m^2 - 124m^2 while sage is 427m^2 - 256m^2.
This means sage has on average a 63% greater chance to lock a caster in this dead zone than demon.
You can also look at the extra range as getting in more damage when an opponent is moving towards you and while an opponent is running away.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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I like it. Can I be honorary archer now?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually I think the extra range is pretty meaningful.
Casters typically have a 27m to 30m range on their skills while demon archer is 32m and sage is 34m. Now if you engage near your max distance it is possible to stun or freeze an opponent in that dead zone where they can't attack back. This means they have to first break the freeze/stun and then move into their attack range before they have an option of retaliating.
For demons this doesn't happen often because typically a caster will move into their own attack range before the skill connects but with sage they have a greater distance to cover and so it should happen more often.
If you look at the width of these zones, demon enjoys a 5m-2m advantage while sage is 7m-4m. If you look at the area of them (an annulus), demon is 295m^2 - 124m^2 while sage is 427m^2 - 256m^2.
This means sage has on average a 63% greater chance to lock a caster in this dead zone than demon.
You can also look at the extra range as getting in more damage when an opponent is moving towards you and while an opponent is running away.
Its really not as useful as people try to make it sound. Unless its 1 on 1 pk... and the target has absolute no clue that you are coming. Even in tw... where there is more targets then you can count... i rarely find the extra range useful... outside of crystal/tower/spawn barrages. Tab select target... which is the system most archers use nowadays. I can select a target to attack... and see a demon archer standing behind me hitting the same target. Rarely will I even target anyone in the 32-34 meters range.
While I am not going to argue the usefulness is not there. 63% increase on something that has an overall usefulness of 1% is only going to give you a 1.63% usefulness.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »While I am not going to argue the usefulness is not there. 63% increase on something that has an overall usefulness of 1% is only going to give you a 1.63% usefulness.
Interesting choice of words since "usefulness of 1%" corresponds with having 1% more crit which is the demon add. b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Ok, I didn't bother reading a whole lot of this thread expect maybe the first page, lol.
But I do like for when I'm killing magic mobs (I know we're mostly talking about PvP, but, yeah.)
Demon Archer~ Stun, then QS (Both demonized) Lovely combo for mobs...
/Ok, I'm out!~[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sig credits to Myra
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually I think the extra range is pretty meaningful.
Casters typically have a 27m to 30m range on their skills while demon archer is 32m and sage is 34m. Now if you engage near your max distance it is possible to stun or freeze an opponent in that dead zone where they can't attack back. This means they have to first break the freeze/stun and then move into their attack range before they have an option of retaliating.
For demons this doesn't happen often because typically a caster will move into their own attack range before the skill connects but with sage they have a greater distance to cover and so it should happen more often.
If you look at the width of these zones, demon enjoys a 5m-2m advantage while sage is 7m-4m. If you look at the area of them (an annulus), demon is 295m^2 - 124m^2 while sage is 427m^2 - 256m^2.
This means sage has on average a 63% greater chance to lock a caster in this dead zone than demon.
You can also look at the extra range as getting in more damage when an opponent is moving towards you and while an opponent is running away.
Whos the caster we talking:
Mages can leap away/closer from Aim low.. unless we talkin about bad mages.
Veno can easily use any of their skills during aimlow to reduce damage (forgot names)
Psy dont really have to explain rite
Overall, That advantage is really not noticeable if the person immune/gets away or seals you once you atack.
Why no one factor sins in distance advantage.. i think they win cause of stealth.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »Whos the caster we talking:
Mages can leap away/closer from Aim low.. unless we talkin about bad mages.
Veno can easily use any of their skills during aimlow to reduce damage (forgot names)
Psy dont really have to explain rite
Overall, That advantage is really not noticeable if the person immune/gets away or seals you once you atack.
Why no one factor sins in distance advantage.. i think they win cause of stealth.
Don't forget shadow tele, 35m ranged teleport/stun at level 10 >.>0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »2m / 15m/s = 0.133 seconds
2m / 5m/s = 0.4 seconds
From my point of view, that'a extra reaction time sage has to end a battle, or gain control of a battle. For example, its time that I can subtract from the 1.25 seconds I need to launch a stunning arrow.
For me to really believe that you think this is useless, I have to believe you do not kite.
Of course, it's useless when someone is being invulnerable, and stunning arrow is useless when someone is being immune to stun, and damage can be useless against someone with too much health. But this gets into tactical situations and the big problems with tactical situations has been that we do not have good ways of discussing them with people when they have different underlying assumptions.
Meanwhile:
2m / frozen = wait until freeze ends
This is not likely initially, because of genie skills, but sometimes you can pull it off. And, yes, here the 2m matters only when you are facing another archer. Anyways, this combo is overpowered so it should be difficult and rare.
Either your reading comprehension totally lacks development or you're totally ignorant and unable to see what other experienced archers have been telling you.
The typical West Coast american player is able to get 40-150 ping on average playing on a west coast server.
The typical east coast player floats 100-300 on average.
The typical European will float 200-600 on average.
You don't understand that by the time you can begin casting a stun/seal your targets are closer/further away to the point of negating your 2 meter advantage.
The ONLY advantage 2 meters gives you is the chance to start casting first. It doesn't get you the extra 2-meters seal/stun range if the target is moving.0 -
Aim Low's good use is for making a target stay still long enough for them to get ganked. In that sense, the range advantage doesn't matter as much. You wouldn't cast Aim Low on something you can destroy alone, especially since it costs a spark - it's usually cast on a difficult target that requires other people to join in so whether you can cast it outside the cast range of the target doesn't matter as much.
However, archer is not the best class for locking down opponents. It costs a spark, can miss, and can fail. Totally stupid. Better leave that to other classes...Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »lmao I didn't know you read that one
Kiyoshi looks up from the pool of blood that has collected under him, his face unrecognizably disfigured from the scratches committed by hordes of feral venos. He struggles to prop himself up on one knee, cradling his out-poured intestines with the other hand. In his eyes are a mix of disbelief and hatred. "So this is how it will end...killed by a TT99+5..." Kiyoshi sputters while coughing out blood and chunks of his lung. Casting a wicked shadow over him towers Fleuri, drawing her TT99+5 for the final blow. "HAHAHA! It will happen at last! You will fall by the TT99+5, just as I have proven in my calculations!"
In the distance, Aesthor looks on. "Noo! I cannot reach him in time! What am I going to do??" she yells frantically. Beside her muses ElenaCostel: "Maybe the attack will miss, and his charm will tick in time..." Without warning, Aesthor grabs ElenaCostel by the collar, holds her head tight with a clenched fist, and kisses her passionately...!
Rainbow-colored waves of awesomeness radiate from the pair as the world stops. For a brief moment, every creature, every wraith, pauses to take in the sheer tranquility that has washed over them.
Near Camp of the Intrepid, Harpy Wraith looks up from feeding on a still-living human, bloodstained herbs peeking out from his still-clenched fists. She lifts him up by his rib cage until he is face-to-face with her, and says: "Remember this day human, I will spare you. Do not defile me with your inferior presence again!"
Crouched in front of an earthen pot with "GEAR" crudely scribbled in crayons, Roids pauses his work for a second before resuming with renewed, almost beastly vigor.
Fluttering through the air nonchalantly, Fay suddenly thrusts a fist, crackling with electricity, into the air: "I need more attack levels!" She declares loudly to the world.
Ast stops mid-sentence in a therapy session with Mendy. "I just don't feel that I am ready..." before declaring "I'll max them!" with a look of confidence and determination burning in her eyes as Mendy nods in approval.
As the wave of awesomeness passes over the scene of battle between Kiyoshi, Fleuri, and a harem of venos, all weapons suddenly turn into flowers. Fleuri's attack, previously charged with all sorts of unexplained powers that only a TT99+5 can deliver, bounces harmlessly off of Kiyoshi's forehead. She charges up another attack with her TT99+5, only to find that it, too, has been turned into a flower. Kiyoshi's charm ticks, and his intestines slip back into his stomach as if sucked in by a vacuum. His face reforms as he staggers up cautiously, unsure of what to make of the flowers now sticking from his quiver. "Curses! Foiled again!" says Fleuri as she glares at Kiyoshi. She turns around and leaves in a huff as the venos began engaging in spontaneous embrace with each other.
The end.
In other news, Stormrage stacks with itself
I *just* read this...0 -
angellicdeity wrote: »You don't understand that by the time you can begin casting a stun/seal your targets are closer/further away to the point of negating your 2 meter advantage.
Yes, 2m range stacks with ping. Does you think this means that ping must be meaningless also?
Meanwhile, some mages do try to walk into range with me. This probably works fine for them on demon archers. (And this is in situations where distance shrink would be suicide.)Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »You wouldn't cast Aim Low on something you can destroy alone, especially since it costs a spark - it's usually cast on a difficult target that requires other people to join in so whether you can cast it outside the cast range of the target doesn't matter as much.
Aim low also does an extra 5k damage which when you crit someone with 50% damage reduction winds up being an extra 1k pvp damage. Sometimes that can be a good thing.0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »I *just* read this...
I can't believe I didn't read this sooner...
Q, you're a bloody genius! b:dirty0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »Yes, 2m range stacks with ping. Does you think this means that ping must be meaningless also?
Meanwhile, some mages do try to walk into range with me. This probably works fine for them on demon archers. (And this is in situations where distance shrink would be suicide.)
Aim low also does an extra 5k damage which when you crit someone with 50% damage reduction winds up being an extra 1k pvp damage. Sometimes that can be a good thing.
Stop making it sound like 2 meters.. is pretty big/long. Any good mage, would shrink away or shrink close and seal you. Their shrink is long enough to get in range to cast most spells.
2 meters = 2 steps. Its hardly noticeable at all. Only class you can notice the range difference is archer vs archer.. but like i have said. Its not noticeable cause the stun takes long enough to cast.. for w.e archer to get closer to you.
While your casting stun/aimlow, i will cast qs then faith and cast my stun. ;x Or just simply click fortify while im getting close to you.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
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Many names, Common Faces.0 -
XD you guys really didn't find that conspicuous block of space in that post suspicious?0
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KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »Stop making it sound like 2 meters.. is pretty big/long. Any good mage, would shrink away or shrink close and seal you. Their shrink is long enough to get in range to cast most spells.
I am not sure how "it matters" makes it "big/long".
But, for example, in TW, there can be times where distance shrink towards me would be suicide but walking towards me seems reasonable.0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »I am not sure how "it matters" makes it "big/long".
But, for example, in TW, there can be times where distance shrink towards me would be suicide but walking towards me seems reasonable.
you always go back to TW, where everyone is lagging
I was talking of real pvp, when people are white/red.
I doubt you ever see a wizard shrink towards your front-line bms just to kill you... unless they leap wrong way.
Still wiz drops ice dragon on the guy in front of you and aoe still hits you. 2 Steps is not far enough from your teammates in front of you.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
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I am not sure how "it matters" makes it "big/long".
I think what Fleuri really is saying to you is that size doesn't matter. What are your thoughts about that?Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »I think what Fleuri really is saying to you is that size doesn't matter. What are your thoughts about that?
He is probably Chinese. b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »you always go back to TW, where everyone is lagging
Except TW is not always the same.
The specific case I was talking about was the sort of 1 on 1 confrontations that happen on initial contact or during tower guard duty.KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »I was talking of real pvp, when people are white/red.
You never do faction vs. faction combat in real PvP? If so do you expect a wizard to survive distance shrinking into your squad?KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »I doubt you ever see a wizard shrink towards your front-line bms just to kill you... unless they leap wrong way.
Still wiz drops ice dragon on the guy in front of you and aoe still hits you. 2 Steps is not far enough from your teammates in front of you.
I was talking of situations where, for whatever reason, I was the front line on our side but am outnumbered by (typically) fewer than five people on their side.
Anyways, unless i made a math mistake there's a situation where if you close from range and quickshot proc and kill your opponent in fewer than six attacks, the sage dps burst advantage from winged blessing exceeds the demon quickshot proc burst dpe advantage.
And, yes, yes, I know you can get other dps burst efects and that they stack -- demon is a good cultivation and I am not disputing that. But do you really want to be telling me that quickshot proc has never helped you in fewer than five subsequent shots?0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »Except TW is not always the same.
The specific case I was talking about was the sort of 1 on 1 confrontations that happen on initial contact or during tower guard duty.
who the F~k 1v1 during a tw.. Like you serious... <_<
/Vent hold on Im having a 1v1 over here at lane C, I dont care if you guys getting demolish.
You never do faction vs. faction combat in real PvP? If so do you expect a wizard to survive distance shrinking into your squad?
We were suggesting wizard vs archer (sage) 1v1? When did the faction appear.. is there gonna be a whole squad around the wizard too and all his escapes on cooldown.
I was talking of situations where, for whatever reason, I was the front line on our side but am outnumbered by (typically) fewer than five people on their side.
Why would you be at the front line, I have no clue.. what are you talking about here.
Anyways, unless i made a math mistake there's a situation where if you close from range and quickshot proc and kill your opponent in fewer than six attacks, the sage dps burst advantage from winged blessing exceeds the demon quickshot proc burst dpe advantage.
QS is not about.. Dam i didnt use my 6 seconds.. Its about doing the fastest damage possible before the person can react, That means in TW with lag and element of surprise.. You get to sneak of alot of people n deal pretty good damage.. Some times even kill them before they can domain/immune pot. Cause of the lag even those will lag and will give extra shot.
And, yes, yes, I know you can get other dps burst efects and that they stack -- demon is a good cultivation and I am not disputing that. But do you really want to be telling me that quickshot proc has never helped you in fewer than five subsequent shots?
Being demon doesnt mean.. QS Stun QS stun QS stun.. We do use other skills.. I used to spam take aim (fast version) when my target was low such as 1/3 hp or something like that for fast damage.. or use lighting strike if its an archer.. Cause god.. I love when i miss and people survive with 1 hp.
Still Im not denying 2 meters is "advantage" but is not a huge factor.. is the same as Demon archer saying.. I get 1 cri and 10% accuracy. They help.. but they not a main factor in winning a 1v1.
Overall archer vs archer same gear.. its always down to who knows how to play and who miss more (specially stun).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
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Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »The specific case I was talking about was the sort of 1 on 1 confrontations that happen on initial contact or during tower guard duty.
The specific case where 10 things went right for the user and 20 things went wrong for the target?
Everything you talked about is with the best case scenario and some more. I live within 20 minutes of the pwi west coast hq (supposedly where the server is located) and could have low double digit ping. And even then... I can't pull of most of what you said even if I conspire with my target to make a video of it.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »who the F~k 1v1 during a tw.. Like you serious... <_<
I have had people misjudge their range to me often enough. And I doubt they think they are 1v1-ing, since they have friends right beside them.KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »We were suggesting wizard vs archer (sage) 1v1? When did the faction appear.. is there gonna be a whole squad around the wizard too and all his escapes on cooldown.
When I PvP'd on my wizard sometimes it would be faction vs. faction.KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »Why would you be at the front line, I have no clue.. what are you talking about here.
This typically happens in one of two circumstances:
First, during the opening minute of TW, when they are trying to set up their forward towers on B.
Second, in a 3 hour tw, when I am on guard duty by a set of towers.KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »QS is not about.. Dam i didnt use my 6 seconds.. Its about doing the fastest damage possible before the person can react, That means in TW with lag and element of surprise.. You get to sneak of alot of people n deal pretty good damage.. Some times even kill them before they can domain/immune pot. Cause of the lag even those will lag and will give extra shot.
I understand that.
But unless you get most of your 6 seconds, or unless you stack another dps buff on top of quickshot, sage can out dps your quickshot proc.
Demon can pull ahead of sage in terms of total damage delivered, with preparation, but preparation takes time. For fast reactions and quick battles, sage often has the advantage.KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »Still Im not denying 2 meters is "advantage" but is not a huge factor.. is the same as Demon archer saying.. I get 1 cri and 10% accuracy. They help.. but they not a main factor in winning a 1v1.
Ok! i have no disagreement here!
(Except its not exactly the same, but you are right that the sage initiative advantage is only sometimes useful.)KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »Overall archer vs archer same gear.. its
always down to who knows how to play and who miss more (specially stun).
In my experience, in archer vs. archer battles, I usually get the stun. (And they happen all too often for me in TW. Maybe they do not like my forum posts? Anyways, it's the archer vs. sin battles where I struggle. 3 on one archer battles also tend to go badly for me also, when I am the one (though not always).)Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »The specific case where 10 things went right for the user and 20 things went wrong for the target?
Everything you talked about is with the best case scenario and some more. I live within 20 minutes of the pwi west coast hq (supposedly where the server is located) and could have low double digit ping. And even then... I can't pull of most of what you said even if I conspire with my target to make a video of it.
And yet everything I have been talking about was something that I had experienced on multiple occasions, in TW. Though, granted, not in the madness of a full-on rush. And I am not just talking about being on the delivering end -- I have gotten stunned by other sage archers when I have tried channelling something slower than a stun against them, where I could have pulled it off against a demon archer.
That said, in TW, there's a lot of combat with exhausted genies, with apoth on cooldown, low chi, and so on.
In 1v1 you typicallly would start with a well rested genie, most or all long-cooldown skills ready, and so on, and with your apothecary ready.0 -
b:question
Seriously though, why this thread still going?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Kerona - Sanctuary wrote: »b:question
Seriously though, why this thread still going?
They just want to fight. Nothing will stop them. Nothing. Not girl on girl action, not Bollywood Nyan Cat, not Unicorns(pink fluffy ones dancing on rainbows), not Peeny jokes, not stormrage babies,...nothing.0 -
_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »They just want to fight. Nothing will stop them. Nothing. Not girl on girl action, not Bollywood Nyan Cat, not Unicorns(pink fluffy ones dancing on rainbows), not Peeny jokes, not stormrage babies,...nothing.
What about the Juggernaut?0 -
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In other words... we're all screwed? b:sad0
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Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »And yet everything I have been talking about was something that I had experienced on multiple occasions, in TW. Though, granted, not in the madness of a full-on rush. And I am not just talking about being on the delivering end -- I have gotten stunned by other sage archers when I have tried channelling something slower than a stun against them, where I could have pulled it off against a demon archer.
Last time I checked... the slowest cleric can move at 4.8 m/s It takes aim low 1.6s to fire. That said cleric can walk 7.6 meters in the time it take for your take aim to fire. The cleric will be well in range even if he started to walk toward you. Or are we AGAIN assuming that the said cleric doesn't know you are coming... and is distracted with all defense skills on cool down. It really seems like everything you described... in order for it to work... the target must be distracted with something else and have no access to defense skills.
I have the 3rd highest kill count and 2nd highest k/d ratio for sage archers on HT. And I am here to tell a fellow sage archer that did not even make the rankings. That his assumptions are all ****... half of it can't even be applied... and the other half require extreme luck. If I only have half of the luck that you have... I'll be rolling around in scroll of tomes.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »I have the 3rd highest kill count and 2nd highest k/d ratio for sage archers on HT. And I am here to tell a fellow sage archer that did not even make the rankings. That his assumptions are all ****... half of it can't even be applied... and the other half require extreme luck. If I only have half of the luck that you have... I'll be rolling around in scroll of tomes.
^
b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
Leeching CQ salary since 09'
Many names, Common Faces.0
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