Demon QS (not as great as I thought)
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/Yahoo/ - Lost City
Posts: 8 Arc User
I'm 1.0 base, 1.42 w/ demon QS proc. 42% increase in damage seemed like a good idea at first, but after doing the math I'm really curious why everyone claims it to be the end-all be-all archer skill. A full cast takes 1.6 seconds and the buff (if it procs) lasts another 6 seconds. So over the 7.6 seconds to take full advantage of QS I can get in 9.5 [10] attacks (counting QS itself as 1 attack).
If I were to just auto attack, I could get in 7.5 [8] attacks. It's only a 25% difference in damage, and that's assuming it procs and I'm able to take advantage of the full 6 seconds of the proc. I could just wind shield (only 35 energy) and get a guaranteed 8.5 [9] attacks off.
Am I missing something?
EDIT: The only time I would say QS is really viable is back when skill canceling was still possible and you could conceivably glitch it until it proc'd before attacking (assuming you're attacking someone that's unaware). Now tho, not so much?
If I were to just auto attack, I could get in 7.5 [8] attacks. It's only a 25% difference in damage, and that's assuming it procs and I'm able to take advantage of the full 6 seconds of the proc. I could just wind shield (only 35 energy) and get a guaranteed 8.5 [9] attacks off.
Am I missing something?
EDIT: The only time I would say QS is really viable is back when skill canceling was still possible and you could conceivably glitch it until it proc'd before attacking (assuming you're attacking someone that's unaware). Now tho, not so much?
Post edited by /Yahoo/ - Lost City on
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That's a decent analysis but you are ignoring that alot of the damage for the quickshot is concentrated towards the end of the 7.6 seconds. Often the initial attack will tick the opponents charm and the follow-up high concentration of DPS will kill while the charm is still in cooldown.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Saying QS is not useful as it seems is like saying don't bother charging up Take Aim. With the time it takes to charge TA up you can fire 3 shots via auto attack. However, you ignore the advantage of the skills are they bypass charm ticks or concentrate your damage so you can kill a charmed opponent. What you said would be true if the opponent was uncharmed.0
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I absolutely love take aim because it's a great no chi opener and is, as you say, useful for bypassing charms. I can almost see the usefulness of QS, but it has no advantages in bypassing charms, and as I mentioned the dps difference between QS and windshield is almost negligible when trying to kill someone between charm ticks.
I'm kind of chasing the idea of making my archer sage now (don't eat me Devoted b:sad) for the longer stun, seal on aim low, and a 500% weapon damage take aim. Really the only appeal demon has for me any more is the crit buffs on STA/stunning and wing span, which isn't even that useful any more seeing as any melee can just aps you to death with or without a level 5 winged shell.0 -
Eh tbh I don't see your point but everyone is entitled to their thoughts lol As an archer, why would i try to bypass a charm? The time it takes for take aim to charge is time enough for the opponent to react and counter or just flat out kill you. The burst damage from quickshot or stun + qs makes the opponent go defense mode usually. We aren't robe classes and really shouldn't be worried about charm bypassing anyway. At least imo we shouldn't be but maybe I'm wrong lol[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero~0 -
In TW, a lot of times your opponent is preoccupied and won't do anything to you until you have made your first attack
ie: they see your name in their damage log or your portrait appears on their screen.
Charge up and preparation moves are worth it for that reason. That is why against a tough opponent, I would start with STA a lot.
(What is it 0.5s less than a full Take Aim? Still pretty long)Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
It's situational, but mostly comes up in mass pvp. If I see a wiz with like 60-70% hp I'd rather use take aim and hope for a crit than bother ticking their charm and giving them a chance to attack / immune. Also, it's a great opener and crit oneshots pretty often. Stunning arrow + take aim is a pretty solid two shot combo against average geared LAs and AAs. And I played a wiz for the longest time so I'm stuck in the old ways of bypassing charm ticks >.<
But yeah, that wasn't really the point of the thread lol. Just wanted to point out why I think QS isn't as OP as everyone seems to say. The only situation where it's still justified is when QS itself ticks their charm and the IAS allows you to kill them before it ticks again. But seeing as the increased damage is so marginal, I'm saying that you would be able to kill them before it ticks again regardless of whether QS procs or not
Sage is starting to look more appealing b:shocked0 -
Well... keep in mind, demon cultivation has a bunch of techniques which boost their average dps above sage: triple spark, quick shot, stunning arrow, sharpened tooth arrow even blazing arrow, and some skills also get a nice damage boost.
It's maybe not a lot of an increase, but their damage boosts can make a difference sometimes.
Some day, I am going to post graphs showing probability of combat outcomes over time for sage and demon (but that gets to be so build and gear dependent I have not known where to start). This can get... interesting.
Or... Excel has erf -- maybe we should try making spreadsheets or something...0 -
/Yahoo/ - Lost City wrote: »It's situational, but mostly comes up in mass pvp. If I see a wiz with like 60-70% hp I'd rather use take aim and hope for a crit than bother ticking their charm and giving them a chance to attack / immune. Also, it's a great opener and crit oneshots pretty often. Stunning arrow + take aim is a pretty solid two shot combo against average geared LAs and AAs. And I played a wiz for the longest time so I'm stuck in the old ways of bypassing charm ticks >.<
But yeah, that wasn't really the point of the thread lol. Just wanted to point out why I think QS isn't as OP as everyone seems to say. The only situation where it's still justified is when QS itself ticks their charm and the IAS allows you to kill them before it ticks again. But seeing as the increased damage is so marginal, I'm saying that you would be able to kill them before it ticks again regardless of whether QS procs or not
Sage is starting to look more appealing b:shocked
*looks at full +10 mage with bm like phys def*
Gl with thatGifs are hard to make work here0 -
I cant believe I'm reading this from an archer from supposedly lost city.... You're going to be labelled "Terri-bad" by the server if you think about trying to PK/TW/PvP.0
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Try bypassing the charm of someone with +10 gears.
Im guessing your archer 8x. Archer from 40-89 is probably dominant in PK cause any other class lack of HP/Def or Damage. (Probably except Sin cause they still can stun lock)
Take Aim Is a great skill, but charging it for the time need it for full damage.. Its some how useless either target moves, dies, immunes, drop from air or you miss?lol.
In Air Pvp... You will rarely see anyone standing still for more than 3 sec. (Unless their stun/aim low And they probably domain/Faith away).
In TW Take Aim probably has same advantage as QS, But again.. Charging up for 3 seconds.. for 1 target damage. I had rather QS and deal as much damage possible. Remember TW 40-60% of the time people will be buff. Take Aim damage will be less effective than 2-3 shots in the time charge and rarely will bypass a real "factor" enemy.
Most annoying thing ever is casting a 3 seconds "Take aim" just so it miss b:chuckle
Only 3 Skills that i like from sage are Stun and Passive.
Take Aim really become less appealing when you fight people with over 10k hp unbuff <<
Cri is probably reason archers still effective in Pk. Having 30-39% cri without buff and increasing to almost 50% makes your "luck" a highly reason to kill people with better gear. Those random 3 Cri can mean people dying. (I really hate when i get 2 cri from archer in a row -_-)
Demon Thundershock also good. Even though the chance is "low", I had it saved my *** so many times n most of the proc = death for enemy. Its pretty hard to kite bms and deal fast damage if they know how to play n leap. The proc becomes really useful against melee and even sometimes against archers. (Even if thundershock miss.. the proc can seal)
Sage thundershock.. Increse debuff time. YAY Now i can spam my skills n do more damage.. Wait. (My skills have COOLDOWN) OH NOES... Its probably a really useless increase of debuff.. unless you have an ep friend that likes to tempest with your debuff.. lol? the demon debuff.. Last enough To use your skills.
Lighting strike = Best last hit for any non robe class. Oh god.. i hate when 1 hp Archer/bm/barb/sin are about to tick charm and my hit miss -_-. Its nice when you lighting strike.. it has low channel and most of the time does pretty good damage (Sin can make the damage 1 ..) The 2 seconds extra of cooldown is not that noticeable. Its not like its a spammable skill but tends to be really useful when doesn't miss.
Sage lighting gives 25% to gain 20 chi. I mean decent but do you really gonna spam it to gain chi? I mean it helps if you 1v1 a bm and run out of chi, but it wont help if it keeps missing... One of the most annoying reason why Archer skills blow. Dont you love missing your skills on others ^_^.
Demon Thunderous blast Increase raw damage. (No point Naming.. No real factor)..
Sage reduces channel to 2 sec from 2.5.. Somehow helpful? but still.. Its probably the less spam Metal skill in the tree and less seen in mass pvp cause of the channel and doesnt really do much damage. (Useful when theres 2 cata or a bunch of people around afk lul overall.. Barrage > this)
Aim low:
You prefer Aim low sage over demon? I mean sure.. Seal is Powerful but stun is way better.
Sage:
Seal + aim low or Aim low or Seal (Unless your aim low procs with it.. this seems kinda useless>? i mean only reason seal will be superior is.. if they "anti stun" while you cast it right?.. If they anti stun and you seal.. They can still get away? so it didn't help that much overall. They still counter it.)
Demon:
Aim low + Stun or Aim low or Stun (Sure if they anti stun skill becomes useless... But if they didn't.. Some people like Wizard and bm.. Cant blink away or drop from the spot if the stun proc.And its easy to chain Stun if your good at counting the time. giving you a full use of your aimlow by.. Aimlow < qs < stun arrow.
Aim low stun more viable than seal. For the simple fact that 90% aim low fails to often and stun in Mass pvp is more useful. For the simple fact that the person will stay there and not run away (drop from air).
Sharptooth extra 4%.. Yes its helpful. But do the math of 10k.. 20% and 16%. Its almost nothing.. I mean 400 extra Damage/reduce. (Yes its helpful against cata in TW). But overall 10k is the standard unbuff hp for most classes. 400 Damage or 10 crit ? I had rather "pray" to PWI gods that i crit after with my buff and kill the person.
Evasion buff demon > sage (Not much to say.. even though is useless. It can save you from random archer with take aim.. .-see what i did there? )
Passive Sage > Demon. I wont dig on this cause its obvious.. 1 cri + 10% accu< 2 meters. Obviously Range gives more viable damage. Butttt I really dont consider range being useful in pvp as much as in TW. In pvp sure.. you will start at max range of everyone up high or bottom. But random sin will come hump your *** when you less expect it. In TW.. Sins still there.. but If they pop.. they die ? or imune. Either way.. The range can be helpful. (Even though.. if a mage drop an ulti on the guy infront.. You still die/Get Hit..)
Sage Bow Mastery.. It gives the most damage at +12. If your Sage with +4 n try to prove your damage is higher than demon. Ima lol @ u. At +12 The damage become pretty obvious. Obviously better than 1 cri.
Demon Barrage > Sage barrage.
It hits more. And most of the time enemy will try to shut it down as soon as possible rite? so the more you hit = better? therefor Demon > sage? The sage "reduction" is pretty useless even in pve (GV).
So overall...
Demon gives you so many new tweaks on your skills. Sage dont change much from lv 10.
Demon tweaks like thundershock, lighting strike, Barrage, aim low and QS. Are probably what makes Demon Superior. People tend to fap with QS cause its the easiest way to get kills. But the other skills are pretty useful too.
Cri Bonus skills stun/Sharptooth + Cri passive stack so much Increase of cri. I mean +2% + 10 cri of skill... That gives you 12% more cri than any other archer. (almost 50% crit maybe more). Crit is obviously the way archer get kills.. the constant cri with normal hits or when you spam your metals is what makes you "Useful". Your not a mage that has 10k Normal hits ulti.
Sage Stun, Sharptooth, aimlow, barrage, take aim. They all have same effects ? (Except for aim low that has 1 more proc) but overall.. They serve the same purpose as 89 lvls ago. They dont give you anything new or amazing. just an increase on the % or raw damage or time.
Sage passive.. Sure more raw damage + 2 meters. But again.. No real new tweaks. Are they helpful and do more raw damage? Yes. Do i find them viable.. probably not.
http://pwcalc.com/8e76f64700f59576
This is your sage ^ Raw passive adds
http://pwcalc.com/8f6d5687a789aa3b
This is your Demon ^ Raw Passive adds
Difference in Raw damage 700?
Blazing arrow.. (Lets be honest.. You rarely see a "High factor on damage".)10 % increase of sage make it superior.. yay?
(YAY Wall of text) ^_^
P.S. Come at Me Sages~! b:mischievous[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
Leeching CQ salary since 09'
Many names, Common Faces.0 -
Oh, Kedge, you are so specialized in your comparisons...
For example: sage aim low -- do you really mean to be trying to convince us that a 3 second debuff that almost anyone has a defense against is better than a 5 second debuff which very few people defend against?
Ok, yes, yes, is true, sometimes stun is better than seal... But I find myself usually often using aim low and stun together in a combination, to extend my control time... And in my experience, most of the time when aim low fails its not because of the percentage chance of failure but because they used an anti-stun mechanism.
Anyways, if they are running from me? When that happens, they are not killing me, and I have various other things I can do... And the cooldown on their anti-stun duration is counting down...0 -
Duno why you say.. Debuff. Its a CC.. Crowd control.
Anyways.. Why would you use Aimlow in the first place?
Whats the reason why.. You used Aimlow?
Whats the purpose to use Aimlow?
Stop the person from moving RITE?.. Therefore.. if Your Aimlow proc fails but seals proc.. How is that gonna help you.. I mean person will just be like b:bye Just the same way.. mages feel everytime they seal and you drop from air. lulz
Stunning a person is More helpful than sealing.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
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I actually have a demon archer already, but I'm rerolling on the same account as my sin so I can share gear (stupid move to not have them on the same account in the first place b:surrender)
That was a pretty in depth comparison kedge
For the most part I agree with you, but there's some things I think you're neglecting:
Aim low
The odds of stun proc'ing w/ out the immobilize is 2.5%. For the sake of comparison, I'm assuming that both debuffs occur. In that case, immobilize and 5 second seal is significantly better than immobilize and 3 second stun because of the longer CC AND because more ppl have anti stun moves / genies / pots than they do for anti seal.
Lightning Strike
The 'never miss' is sweet, but with double cv rings I don't really miss things anymore, especially not BMs or barbs. Demon > sage tho. Cooldown sucks.
ThunderShock
10% chance for a 3 second immobilize is really really bad. It's proc'd for me so infrequently, and on the occasions when it has I feel that it really hasn't provided THAT much of an advantage. Also, anything 20% and lower is highly unreliable to proc imo. The advantage I see in sage thunder shock is that you have the option to use thundershock, kite for a few seconds (since the BM you're trying to hit is running at you with will of bodi), and follow up with other metal skills. That said, it's still by far the most spammed metal skill I use because it has the highest raw damage. Really don't think it's that great for either culti... I'd only get it for the increased damage tbh.
Thunderous Blast
Demon is whatever. The shorter cast and cooldown on sage tho is nice, as it only takes a half second more than thunder shock AND deals more damage than lightning strike.
Stunning Arrow
4.5 second stun for no chi is AMAZING. AMAZING. Seriously... AMAZING. 10% crit buff is also awesome, but that stun time is just waay too tempting.
Everything else I agree with you on.
EDIT: also, I think take aim is a great skill regardless of your target's hp. It's the single hardest hitting move an archer can have and is great for opening or sniping in tw.0 -
Aim low:
I don't consider Seal a strong crow control cause you can still move around. Freeze on the other hand is OP.
If i get Aimlow + Seal.. i had just faith/absolute domain. No biggie. But the chances that happens will be lower. Than me just plain stun or aimlow.. And yet, you will have to do the same thing i did for a none double proc effect.
extra 2 second of seal aint that great if they can run away.. In mass pvp STUN = ****ed up time b:shutup If your genie on cool down or you cant get away before you get chain CC/stun/or kill.. Your gone
I just prefer the aim low as a immobilize + stun(Or just one) giving me a more Control on the target.
Thundershock:
I like it cause its a Freeze.. not just seals but imobilize. I mean who are you really gonna spam this on.. mostly barbs or bms. People that tend to have decent ammount of hp. If you proc this it will help your team to kill other than increasing the debuff time. Which is kinda useless.
Stunning arrow:
Yeap increase time is helpful, but it just doesnt seem.. that helpful as sage. I mean that extra little bit of time for 1 more hit? :S or a full take aim.. that probably will miss. I mean the time is priceless.. But just doesnt seem like you will make a HUGE impact or difference than the demon time.
Take aim:
Like i said.. Its just really a waste of time charge it so it miss or people moves. Take aim was great in 2008 when you could only get fb89 skills. And Sage was more appealing.
Just watch begining and 1:47
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzIH4JQ1p48
Proc useful ^_^ Double stun helpz[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
Leeching CQ salary since 09'
Many names, Common Faces.0 -
KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »Just watch begining and 1:47
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzIH4JQ1p48
Proc useful ^_^ Double stun helpz
I am not really seeing a lot of anti-stun nor absolute domain from your targets there?0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »I am not really seeing a lot of anti-stun nor absolute domain from your targets there?
b:question How does that affect me.. And beginning it was 2v1 against ep and archer. I had kill them once n they came out again. I think it was a on cooldown from first fight. reason why he tree of protection?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
Leeching CQ salary since 09'
Many names, Common Faces.0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »Oh, Kedge, you are so specialized in your comparisons...
For example: sage aim low -- do you really mean to be trying to convince us that a 3 second debuff that almost anyone has a defense against is better than a 5 second debuff which very few people defend against?
Ok, yes, yes, is true, sometimes stun is better than seal... But I find myself usually often using aim low and stun together in a combination, to extend my control time... And in my experience, most of the time when aim low fails its not because of the percentage chance of failure but because they used an anti-stun mechanism.
Anyways, if they are running from me? When that happens, they are not killing me, and I have various other things I can do... And the cooldown on their anti-stun duration is counting down...
On a ranged target aim low will have the same effect seal or not since the goal is to either stop them from kiteing out of a charm tick or to tack them out of their range to wail on em. If they're out of range lah de dah cant hit you anyways, in range...if they're kiteing to live and you stopped em seal or no seal they're dead soon anyways.
On a mele target...OI works even if your sealed.Gifs are hard to make work here0 -
Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »On a ranged target aim low will have the same effect seal or not since the goal is to either stop them from kiteing out of a charm tick or to tack them out of their range to wail on em. If they're out of range lah de dah cant hit you anyways, in range...if they're kiteing to live and you stopped em seal or no seal they're dead soon anyways.
On a mele target...OI works even if your sealed.
With just regular immobilize your target can:
-3 spark to purify
-use psy will
-still hit you with ranged attacks
-use apoth
With seal, they can't0 -
/Yahoo/ - Lost City wrote: »With just regular immobilize your target can:
-3 spark to purify
-use psy will
-still hit you with ranged attacks
-use apoth
With seal, they can't
Same applies to stun. Either extra poc means they have to apoth/genie out of it.
However, Freeze + Seal is, in effect, the same thing as a stun.... and the added proc won't be affected by anti-stun (great for if you used aim low to buy time to kite, for example and they hit their anti-stun just in time). With Demon, both procs are negated by anti-stuns, but a stun is often considered more of a hindrance in PvP than a seal.0 -
/Yahoo/ - Lost City wrote: »With just regular immobilize your target can:
-3 spark to purify
-use psy will
-still hit you with ranged attacks
-use apoth
With seal, they can't
If somone wastes an apoc or 3 sparks just to break aim low you hit the damn jackpot.
If your against a class with a 100% self purify and its out of cooldown, why aim low to begin with?
Already said why its only mildly annoying if the skill procs while antistuned
Freeze out of range = they can cast skills now? If they're in range and you aimed to stop kiteing then they probly already burned control skills.
Aim low serves its function at level 10 the sage demon adds are what...25%? The stun or "stun" are just iceing. Would you take a slice of wedding cake with only a normal amount of frosting (demon), or a cupcake with slightly more than the average amount of frosting (sage)?Gifs are hard to make work here0 -
Id like to address a couple of things I see wrong with this argument.
Firstly, the talk about the seal proc.
I see how you can argue that a seal is useful in PVP and how someone will be unable to jump and what not, but you have not addressed the fact they can still use an HP pot or use a defense charm to survive your barrage of attacks until either their charm ticks or they can successfully maneuver away.
Also, this argument about how the seal proc is better because of the constant antistun mechanisms. Just ask yourself this, are you willing to waste an entire spark for a 25% chance to seal an incoming barb or BM, just to get a chance to kite away or use a metal skill or two? Why not use the spark to antistun and then kite THEIR antistun until it dies and then use an immobilize or stun? Honestly, I find it stupid that anyone would waste an entire spark to POSSIBLY seal someone.
Secondly, the discussion about the increased stun from Sage Stunning Arrow.
You cannot say this is negligible. With this, you can pretty much cast Sage Thundershock AND Sage Thunderous Blast before your opponent can move. Youll be putting down your bow as they come out of stun.
Im actually a demon archer and Ive looked at this topic at least 20 times. There are pros of both sides and I have to admit a sage archer does look fun to play. But its truly dependent on your own playing style. Im used to non-demon/sage skills and they way those skills work, but after trying to kill people between charm ticks, I love demon QS. Honestly, I think that Sages play to kill over charms, while Demons play to kill through them.
This is probably why you find Sages so appealing.0 -
Noveriot - Heavens Tear wrote: »Honestly, I think that Sages play to kill over charms, while Demons play to kill through them.
If this is what you think then the Sage archer has gone the way of the Dinosaur.
If your facing anyone similarly geared end-game you'll never be able to kill over charms. All casters shard some heavy physical resistance shards end-game. Wizard Stone Barrier is monstrous. All physical classes have magic ornaments refined and high physical defense.
End game characters usually have much more HP as well. Once you start factoring the TW/PvP/PK end-game characters they're closer to the Rank 9 spectrum. You wont be going over their defenses and shards.0 -
angellicdeity wrote: »If this is what you think then the Sage archer has gone the way of the Dinosaur.
If your facing anyone similarly geared end-game you'll never be able to kill over charms. All casters shard some heavy physical resistance shards end-game. Wizard Stone Barrier is monstrous. All physical classes have magic ornaments refined and high physical defense.
End game characters usually have much more HP as well. Once you start factoring the TW/PvP/PK end-game characters they're closer to the Rank 9 spectrum. You wont be going over their defenses and shards.
Well, lets say youre fighting an R9 BM, with 20k HP? Say you pew pew and you use your increased sage stunning arrow for like... 3k? Probably more considering you have your own R9 weapon, right? Then you do your Lightning Shock, 6k? Then you hit your Thunderous Blast and crit them for 12k? Oh snap, you just killed them over their charm
Basically, what Im saying is. R9 just makes people have more HP and hit harder, but if you have "similarly geared end-game" gear then you too will have more HP and hit harder. So the possibility of killing someone over their charm is still highly possible.0 -
@joshcja: Immobilize + seal is functionally the same thing as a stun, they can't move and they can't attack. The fact that it lasts 2 seconds longer than demon aim low is what I find appealing. The idea that it's more difficult to block seal than stun is just icing. If it procs, you have 5 seconds of straight DD that they will either be forced to tank or have to genie out of. Even if they try to tank it, you can literally have a 10 second stun lock if you combo with stunning arrow. I've never seen an archer played that way, but you have to admit the idea is pretty appealing.
BTW, noone likes wedding cake. Cupcakes > wedding cake regardless of frosting b:chuckle
@Noveriot: I'm liking your ideas.. In reference to QS tho, how often have you found that you simply could not kill someone without it proc'ing? Personally I've just found it as a faster way to kill someone, not necessarily something I'd really NEED to proc in order to get the kill. If I replaced my Stun + QS combo with sage stun + wind shield, I'd get in a solid 5 hits before the stun wore off, compared to only 2-3 hits with demon stun + demon qs.
And before someone brings up the obvious "you could just use demon qs and extreme poison" argument, wind shield is only 35 energy so it's more or less completely spammable (for me at least, 170 energy w/ 3 regen), so i could easily tandem that with amps.0 -
/Yahoo/ - Lost City wrote: »@joshcja: Immobilize + seal is functionally the same thing as a stun, they can't move and they can't attack.
Not quite. You can still use pots/apoth while frozen and sealed, but not while stunned.0 -
The thing is you're never going to pop a spark to cast Aim Low on anyone with stun immune on, just to hope for a Seal...so the idea that Seal goes through anti stun thus being more advantageous is not a very meaningful argument.
@Noveriot
What you seem to forget is that Sage Mastery and Blazing really add less than 800 raw damage over Demon, assuming +12 R9 as the weapon. In your situation, there's no reason to believe that a Demon with the same gear wouldn't be able to bypass charm. It would have been more convincing if you started with Sage STA.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
still why are we even talking about charm bypassing like archers were built to do that >_> you wanna bypass charms roll a wizzy :<[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero~0 -
Noveriot - Heavens Tear wrote: »Well, lets say youre fighting an R9 BM, with 20k HP? Say you pew pew and you use your increased sage stunning arrow for like... 3k? Probably more considering you have your own R9 weapon, right? Then you do your Lightning Shock, 6k? Then you hit your Thunderous Blast and crit them for 12k? Oh snap, you just killed them over their charm
Basically, what Im saying is. R9 just makes people have more HP and hit harder, but if you have "similarly geared end-game" gear then you too will have more HP and hit harder. So the possibility of killing someone over their charm is still highly possible.
You know that BMs always magic marrow sage archers? They know you cant pin them down with Demon Quick Shoot so its rather safe to Marrow. You will not be hitting any dream numbers like 12k with Thunder Blast. Full or party full R9 BM with highly refined ornaments will still have around 14-15k metal defenses left after you used Thunder Shock. Its about as effective as trying to kill AA users with Thunder Blast.
In that situation you do way more damage with Sage Take aim >.<0 -
BMs magic marrow archers regardless of culti. But that's assuming 1v1 situations. Even if they do mag marrow, auto shooting + wind shield deals comparable damage to QS, with the benefit of always proc'ing0
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If you're gonna add in genies, then perhaps you should try QS + Frenzy or EX.0
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