Proving that 5aps isn't broken

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Necare - Harshlands wrote: »

In math, two - makes one +, so 2 wrongs make 1 right.

And also APS is broken with their 120k DPS.

It would be like a wiz hitting 672k with BIDS and no -channeling. Don't see many of those, do you?

Your math is broken.

Proof: 2*3+4*5 = 26
Now, I introduce two -:
2*-3+4*-5= 26
This proves that two - is one wrong, so you would need four - to make two wrongs.
b:mischievous

But try taking tweekz 50 target aoe example (in ovs, maybe) and work out the aps of BIDS, and it looks rather high?

Anyways, I think that the problem with 5aps is not the damage rate itself, instead its the lack of variety of challenges to let people gain from other kinds of builds and skills.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »

Because idiots who throw out the clerics/barbs are the ones who wont have anyone for their low level FC's for their new shiny classes ijs. (Sadly I can see this now for archo server in the near future ;-;)

They've invented the alt FC now for that, they don't
need a cleric to kill the heads.

WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide

"Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide View Post
again, i repeat, can someone give me a magic use equivalent of the 5aps system fer melee users?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweakz View Post
The limit to aps is 5, the limit to -ch is 0

There you go."

---

for 15 seconds using wellspring quaff, if they decide ta go demon. 2 things wrong with that. the first being that it will prettymuch eliminate sage wizards from the game, if there are any left that is. the second being that that has a cost of mp and chi while 5aps has no mp or chi cost, and actually helps biuld chi even faster. so no, if wizards are the only magic class that can do that, and it costs a spark and mp, it is not an equivalent match.

plz try again, and give me an option with no mp or chi cost that allows for immediate channeling for all magic using classes. if you can do that, i bet people will stop their complaining.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »

Claws are SHT in delta and you'd have to restat out to even survive in there. Sorry but I like my tanks being less anorexic tyvm... *shakes head* you were a GREAT tank in TW before in cata pulling back in Impulse... why you'd wreak yourself now and not even geared like BeastIsboss from HT I will never know...such a shame a good barb goes to waste on claws...



What is this I dont even...

Do you know even with my demon IH + pure mag Bm/Sin/Archer 5 aps tanks suck BALLS at staying alive? And in the instances that MATTER to me? You're as short sighted as part of the PWI company snorting up the next line of for-profit crack you can get. *barfs all over your Deicides* 1-2 years ago you were LAUGHED at for stating fists due to not enough -int to do enough proper damage-sword/axe BMs were the sht and barbs were built to tank. Now every little QQ 10 year old with the attention span of a mushroom thinks they can tank...

Do I care about profit? No I can farm herbs for that sht. I dont walk into Lunars and Nirvanas FOR PROFIT *GASP* I walk in there for GEAR. After the fact even then I wouldnt farm for profit. Go show me a sin that can tank arma w/ cleric heals NOT sharing aggro w/ other 5 APS. Go show me an archer that can tank and make the pulls in Deltas the entire way. Go show me a BM that can tank Warsong's. THEN I'll believe youre pathetic statement...

I actually VALUE a good tank unlike some of you 5 APS tards...(not that Im saying some 5 aps ppl dont value good tanks-its just that alot of them cant see past their big egos through triple spark to appreciate it)

/enrant

Now lets start with facts. I refined my gear bit more during restatting but I had 17.7k hp before restatting, assuming correct numbers would be ~18.5k w/o restat atm. Now I got 15k or 15.2k hp, depending on which cape I use(QQ, wasted pink wing trophy), that difference isn`t really that major. Now you say I cant delta? Sorry to say but I have done several deltas after restatting, full ones you mind, not some BH deltas. Point being, PvE wise I need that 3-3.5k hp for absolutely nothing, I just dish out nice dps compared to your average barbs.

When it comes to PvP wise, that extra hp is irrelevant, ppl who kill me, would have killed me anyway, to be the sort of meatshield that can take good punishment you gotta have 25k+ hp. Would have I wanted to pull catas, I`d be sage, I`m demon, therefore one might say my interest was never to actually pull catas. I just was high lvl barb back in the days, when server was young, prolly one of the first 5 barbs to be 9x, I got one of the first TT90 armor sets finished, etc. Point being, my plan was never to actually pull catas, I just happened to be one of those 4 best suited barbs for the job. I seemed to manage it well so I`ve been forced to pull cata rather often, it`s not something I asked for but something I was asked to do.

Now I tank better with claws, I rarely need puris as I can just spark em off, if I happen to have BP on me, it`s like half a cleric just there, making healing me a lot easier. I rank top5 on mondays event, every single time I enter, I got all the charms I want with event gold. Back in the days I did most of the things charmless, I couldnt afford em too well, sure it helped me to test my limits and something I have done, never seen any other barb pull em off. Now I`m always charmed or at least pretty much always. What about real farming? Did nirvana during 2x, we ran it for 3h straight or so, I made 12m from it, I can afford a lot better gear with claws than I would w/o. I dont feel like my barb is ruined, actually he has never been more wanted, I get so many pms asking to do something it`s not even funny.

Ps. If I ever farm R9 +10 filled with vit stones, I may restat back to normal build, go sage too to pull catas, till that happens, this kitty will be happy claw barb b:bye.

Pps. Due your personal connections to certain barb, I can understand you might have problems accepting claw barb is superior build in most cases compared to other barbs.

Edit: Clerics arent needed in FC/Nirvana, I could charm tank both easy, FC I could do charmless w/o cleric. I can duo FC with 10x sin easy, I could solo most of it I guess, some bosses just are nasty if you going alone, keep you chain disabled. Point being, we can live w/o clerics most of the time and there are some clerics who accept that fact, not think they are some demigods absolutely needed for everything. Biggest divas usually are those barbs/clerics who cant accept aps are better path most of the time. Heck, the only ones who actually have trashed my build have been sage barbs, you actually are first cleric to do so and you havent squaded with me =/.

Necare - Harshlands

fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

your Math Is Broken.

Proof: 2*3+4*5 = 26
Now, I Introduce Two -:
2*-3+4*-5= 26
This Proves That Two - Is One Wrong, So You Would Need Four - To Make Two Wrongs.
B:mischievous

-2*-3=6 Ijs

Evict - Heavens Tear

WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide wrote: »

"Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide View Post
again, i repeat, can someone give me a magic use equivalent of the 5aps system fer melee users?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweakz View Post
The limit to aps is 5, the limit to -ch is 0

There you go."

---

for 15 seconds using wellspring quaff, if they decide ta go demon. 2 things wrong with that. the first being that it will prettymuch eliminate sage wizards from the game, if there are any left that is. the second being that that has a cost of mp and chi while 5aps has no mp or chi cost, and actually helps biuld chi even faster. so no, if wizards are the only magic class that can do that, and it costs a spark and mp, it is not an equivalent match.

plz try again, and give me an option with no mp or chi cost that allows for immediate channeling for all magic using classes. if you can do that, i bet people will stop their complaining.

Obviously you haven't heard of e-sarcasm. Or quoting.

Seriously though, if you want 0 MP cost on Wizard, buy a pair of Deicides and a couple cannies and make yourself a 5.0 Fist Wizard.

Tamias - Archosaur

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Now lets start with facts. I refined my gear bit more during restatting but I had 17.7k hp before restatting, assuming correct numbers would be ~18.5k w/o restat atm. Now I got 15k or 15.2k hp, depending on which cape I use(QQ, wasted pink wing trophy), that difference isn`t really that major. Now you say I cant delta? Sorry to say but I have done several deltas after restatting, full ones you mind, not some BH deltas. Point being, PvE wise I need that 3-3.5k hp for absolutely nothing, I just dish out nice dps compared to your average barbs.

When it comes to PvP wise, that extra hp is irrelevant, ppl who kill me, would have killed me anyway, to be the sort of meatshield that can take good punishment you gotta have 25k+ hp. Would have I wanted to pull catas, I`d be sage, I`m demon, therefore one might say my interest was never to actually pull catas. I just was high lvl barb back in the days, when server was young, prolly one of the first 5 barbs to be 9x, I got one of the first TT90 armor sets finished, etc. Point being, my plan was never to actually pull catas, I just happened to be one of those 4 best suited barbs for the job. I seemed to manage it well so I`ve been forced to pull cata rather often, it`s not something I asked for but something I was asked to do.

Now I tank better with claws, I rarely need puris as I can just spark em off, if I happen to have BP on me, it`s like half a cleric just there, making healing me a lot easier. I rank top5 on mondays event, every single time I enter, I got all the charms I want with event gold. Back in the days I did most of the things charmless, I couldnt afford em too well, sure it helped me to test my limits and something I have done, never seen any other barb pull em off. Now I`m always charmed or at least pretty much always. What about real farming? Did nirvana during 2x, we ran it for 3h straight or so, I made 12m from it, I can afford a lot better gear with claws than I would w/o. I dont feel like my barb is ruined, actually he has never been more wanted, I get so many pms asking to do something it`s not even funny.

Ps. If I ever farm R9 +10 filled with vit stones, I may restat back to normal build, go sage too to pull catas, till that happens, this kitty will be happy claw barb b:bye.

Pps. Due your personal connections to certain barb, I can understand you might have problems accepting claw barb is superior build in most cases compared to other barbs.

Edit: Clerics arent needed in FC/Nirvana, I could charm tank both easy, FC I could do charmless w/o cleric. I can duo FC with 10x sin easy, I could solo most of it I guess, some bosses just are nasty if you going alone, keep you chain disabled. Point being, we can live w/o clerics most of the time and there are some clerics who accept that fact, not think they are some demigods absolutely needed for everything. Biggest divas usually are those barbs/clerics who cant accept aps are better path most of the time. Heck, the only ones who actually have trashed my build have been sage barbs, you actually are first cleric to do so and you havent squaded with me =/.

>___> My personal relations have nothing to do with this considering I HAVE experienced squading with claw barbs before on the server and even you would have nightmares after that. So don't come in attacking on personal things that aren't even relevant to the topic b:bye To be quite honest I dont even know half the beef you even have with "certain barbs" since its never discussed with me, so don't throw assumptions around. Diva? lawl Im the least bit of a diva about it-Im just saying that why ruin a well built barb (WHICH I COMPLEMENTED YOU ON ><) on a server that tbh doesn't have that many of them? And where the heck did I say anything about being a demigod? >< you read waaaay too much into things ijs. Youre not the only barb getting PM's about getting stuff done-there's plenty of other barbs both in and out of faction that complain that they get harassed for everything and their mothers. Its the nature of the class.

(Trust me Im not the only person to say anything negative about that on Archo-its just they never really come on the forums about it)

Before you could charm tank who's help did you need before you got to that point? A cleric and a squad of DD's. So before you go and sit there bragging at the top, dont forget the people who eve helped you get to that point. But I digress this isnt about clerics. ( and to make this clear that's NOT a demigod comment its a "please be mindful of who helped you to get where you were" comment ffs.)

But anyways back on the ORRIGINAL topic-

The 5 APS game will be played until something new shiny and more broken comes out-until then this is the new era we live in. b:shocked

WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Obviously you haven't heard of e-sarcasm. Or quoting.

Seriously though, if you want 0 MP cost on Wizard, buy a pair of Deicides and a couple cannies and make yourself a 5.0 Fist Wizard.

um, sorry, it's hard ta tell sarcasm in fckn text.

i've heard of quoting, i'm just not all that good at figuring out how to quote a quote and the reply to the quote.

and i don't want a wizard without an mp cost. what a want is a 0% channel time without an mp cost, i'm not sayin the skills fired should be free of an mp cost, just the ability. can you give me a way ta do that? or were you using sarcasm? cause if so plz make it abit more obvious, or put *sarcasm*, or (sarcasm), or something of that nature next to it.

Evict - Heavens Tear

WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide wrote: »

um, sorry, it's hard ta tell sarcasm in fckn text.

i've heard of quoting, i'm just not all that good at figuring out how to quote a quote and the reply to the quote.

and i don't want a wizard without an mp cost. what a want is a 0% channel time without an mp cost, i'm not sayin the skills fired should be free of an mp cost, just the ability. can you give me a way ta do that? or were you using sarcasm? cause if so plz make it abit more obvious, or put *sarcasm*, or (sarcasm), or something of that nature next to it.

If you refer to OP, by combining -chan equips and set bonuses with -18% chan equips, -0% chan cap can be achieved. *Sarcasm*

But really, if you're willing to shell out some cash, your first born and your wife's arm+leg, you should be able to reach the cap relatively easily; provided you use Apoth and Savants along with your pr0shiet gears. b:chuckle

WnbTank - Archosaur

Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »

>___> My personal relations have nothing to do with this considering I HAVE experienced squading with claw barbs before on the server and even you would have nightmares after that. So don't come in attacking on personal things that aren't even relevant to the topic b:bye To be quite honest I dont even know half the beef you even have with "certain barbs" since its never discussed with me, so don't throw assumptions around. Diva? lawl Im the least bit of a diva about it-Im just saying that why ruin a well built barb (WHICH I COMPLEMENTED YOU ON ><) on a server that tbh doesn't have that many of them? And where the heck did I say anything about being a demigod? >< you read waaaay too much into things ijs. Youre not the only barb getting PM's about getting stuff done-there's plenty of other barbs both in and out of faction that complain that they get harassed for everything and their mothers. Its the nature of the class.

(Trust me Im not the only person to say anything negative about that on Archo-its just they never really come on the forums about it)

Before you could charm tank who's help did you need before you got to that point? A cleric and a squad of DD's. So before you go and sit there bragging at the top, dont forget the people who eve helped you get to that point. But I digress this isnt about clerics. ( and to make this clear that's NOT a demigod comment its a "please be mindful of who helped you to get where you were" comment ffs.)

But anyways back on the ORRIGINAL topic-

The 5 APS game will be played until something new shiny and more broken comes out-until then this is the new era we live in. b:shocked

Well I gotten image you were dating certain barb who got quite different views about barbs than I do, I only refered you being influenced by him. I may confuse you with somebody/Heard rumour that isn`t true/etc. And our beef is mostly about just builds, nothing personal, we just see things on different light.

You know, it`s not compliment when I myself am totally happy with my barb the way he is atm. When you say claws = ruining barb, I got experience that is quite the opposite, and frankly I`m the one of us who got experience how claws actually affect barb. Our servers got maybe 5 barbs that use claws as they should be used on barbs(liu, hero, me, potato, seems like I cant remember 5th), rest have done it wrong(unless I have missed some). NoEqual that has quit, he was horrible example of clawbarb, no real clawbarb is build like him so if your experience of claws on barb is with him, I dont blame you for having such a strong opinions regarding claw build. But to put it into the right light, his build/skill was sort of "what is ih?" coming from a cleric, anything he did should be disregarded when thinking clawbarbs.

Now which cleric helped me to lvl to get to top as you say? You can see her name over my head, she pretty much quit due rl reasons though. Our relationship is complicated but I doubt she would say I`m ungrateful to her for her help. I think I treat ppl I squad with well, your views are just so flawed they needed to be put down hard for your own sake. Thing is, my hp is low for even a clawbarb, my barb is far from perfect but I like him way better now with claws than before without them.

Our clawbarbs really arent the best ones to look for when thinking about clawbuild on barbs, the ones I mentioned have kinda lowish hp too I think, well `cept liu prolly. You cant say some build is bad when ppl who have done it around you have failed in it. What would you say about full mag cleric w/o refines or shards? Wouldnt work, lets say +7 armors with perfect shards, 4soc. That likely would be better than vit cleric, it`s the same thing with clawbarbs, you need certain level of gear to make it work, when it does work, it outshines other builds.

Ps. I`m not bragging, my build is far from done, yet it works well enough already and that is something you seem to miss. I still got my axes, true form, all that, I just also got claws for dps (tanking).

Pps. Now I wasnt axe barb so long ago, I have noticed pm spam increase severly. I`m no DD class player who is like "somebody pm`d me for help ", I do know what it means to be barb but all but 1 person have been satisfied with my clawbuild. That 1 person was vit build sagebarb, "barb is not supposed to be DD".

WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you refer to OP, by combining -chan equips and set bonuses with -18% chan equips, -0% chan cap can be achieved. *Sarcasm*

But really, if you're willing to shell out some cash, your first born and your wife's arm+leg, you should be able to reach the cap relatively easily; provided you use Apoth and Savants along with your pr0shiet gears. b:chuckle

thanks, that's much clearer, black type don't show up well on this background, but still, thanks. -18% channeling huh? well that sure makes it fair *sarcasm* (see how easy that was?) how does -18% channeling time even come close to 5APS? especially for a sin, -18% just ain't cuttin it. it's bull**** and it's fckn up the game's balance. death to 5aps

Jadsia - Lost City

tweakz wrote: »

Why do you insist on comparing apples and oranges? BIDS is AoE (1 hit 50+ mobs at a time) . Do 5aps have such devastating AoE? Is it not fair until casters have the same 1-1 dps and continue their dominance in AoE, range tanking, and low repairs?

If casters had 0% channeling, casting times, and no cooldown times then you might have a point but your lame point in itself is apples and oranges. LOL.

Necare - Harshlands

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

If casters had 0% channeling, casting times, and no cooldown times then you might have a point but your lame point in itself is apples and oranges. LOL.

That'd be mamazing. 0 sec channel, cast and cooldown means there'd be an infinite amount of attacks made every 0 seconds, at least until MP was out or whatever you're attacking is dead.

prof

you also have to factor in the delay between yourself and the server to react to the command of skills being used.

that's been fixed since 2008.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »

Claws are SHT in delta and you'd have to restat out to even survive in there. Sorry but I like my tanks being less anorexic tyvm... *shakes head* you were a GREAT tank in TW before in cata pulling back in Impulse... why you'd wreak yourself now and not even geared like BeastIsboss from HT I will never know...such a shame a good barb goes to waste on claws...



What is this I dont even...

Do you know even with my demon IH + pure mag Bm/Sin/Archer 5 aps tanks suck BALLS at staying alive? And in the instances that MATTER to me? You're as short sighted as part of the PWI company snorting up the next line of for-profit crack you can get. *barfs all over your Deicides* 1-2 years ago you were LAUGHED at for stating fists due to not enough -int to do enough proper damage-sword/axe BMs were the sht and barbs were built to tank. Now every little QQ 10 year old with the attention span of a mushroom thinks they can tank...

Do I care about profit? No I can farm herbs for that sht. I dont walk into Lunars and Nirvanas FOR PROFIT *GASP* I walk in there for GEAR. After the fact even then I wouldnt farm for profit. Go show me a sin that can tank arma w/ cleric heals NOT sharing aggro w/ other 5 APS. Go show me an archer that can tank and make the pulls in Deltas the entire way. Go show me a BM that can tank Warsong's. THEN I'll believe youre pathetic statement...

I actually VALUE a good tank unlike some of you 5 APS tards...(not that Im saying some 5 aps ppl dont value good tanks-its just that alot of them cant see past their big egos through triple spark to appreciate it)

/enrant

1. You don't heal on arma or you get 1 shot b:bye
2. AznAssasin, ***/\ssiN (me), Aujami, Angela$, DATALEC (i'll stop there for just MY server)
3. You're **** if you think BMs can't tank warsong's even my sin can... seriously just go away b:bye

SQUISHKASS - Sanctuary

just that alot of them cant see past their big egos

Seems this also applies to certain clerics.

3. You're **** if you think BMs can't tank warsong's even my sin can... seriously just go away

Even my archer can tank it. Saying a bm can't do it is just re tarded.

Claws are SHT in delta and you'd have to restat out to even survive in there.

My LA fist barb has no issues tanking delta. b:bye

Obly - Dreamweaver

Casters and Nirvana?

hmm....cleric for heals, veno for amps and debuffs.

Now a psy...euhm, not any really efficient skills or benefits available.

A wizzy, water damage buff? minimal damage increase, takes up spot of an APS member.

I do nirvana with full squads, and try 2 invite all classes. even people with sucky gear, cause i am not another greedy self centered player that only wants faster faster faster. Although from time 2 time, its a nice change of pace ofc.

However, that being said. my squads usually are, Archer, BM, Barb, Cleric, Veno. and the occasional sin.

Works fine, 5 aps. 2.5 aps, i don;t care. I can;t stand WC's like Nirvy squad LF more DD's Must be 4.0 APS+ (Come on, what the *** is wrong with you people).

Obly out

Born_Free - Harshlands

Still waiting for tweakz's genius breakthough proving the non-brokenness of APS.....

Traz - Dreamweaver

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

Still waiting for tweakz's genius breakthough proving the non-brokenness of APS.....

It's working exactly like it was intended too. b:pleased

Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear

Still waiting for everyone else's genius breakthrough proving the legitimate brokenness of APS

Born_Free - Harshlands

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It's working exactly like it was intended too. b:pleased

That's for sure. b:chuckle

tweakz

People come here acting like they're more enlightened, better at math, strategy, etc than the devs despite the many casters who don't use -int being happy with the balance. What are they actually doing besides trolling or corporate sabotage?

I hate pw as a company, but I'm not gonna jump on this bandwagon because they're wrong.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

People come here acting like they're more enlightened, better at math, strategy, etc than the devs despite the many casters who don't use -int being happy with the balance. What are they actually doing besides trolling or corporate sabotage?

I hate pw as a company, but I'm not gonna jump on this bandwagon because they're wrong.

lol.

people dont act like they are better than math. they are.
at least if u say that the dps of a wiz/psy is higher than a 5aps.

personal opinions of people that use pwi as msn or rolled a farming alt are...personal opinions.

come with a solid proof using maths; this would be objective.

Jadsia - Lost City

Obly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Casters and Nirvana?

hmm....cleric for heals, veno for amps and debuffs.

Now a psy...euhm, not any really efficient skills or benefits available.

A wizzy, water damage buff? minimal damage increase, takes up spot of an APS member.

I do nirvana with full squads, and try 2 invite all classes. even people with sucky gear, cause i am not another greedy self centered player that only wants faster faster faster. Although from time 2 time, its a nice change of pace ofc.

However, that being said. my squads usually are, Archer, BM, Barb, Cleric, Veno. and the occasional sin.

Works fine, 5 aps. 2.5 aps, i don;t care. I can;t stand WC's like Nirvy squad LF more DD's Must be 4.0 APS+ (Come on, what the *** is wrong with you people).

Obly out

I wish that more players were like you. It's cool to help out other classes like that when other normally wouldn't in nirvana. Thanks.

Jadsia - Lost City

Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Still waiting for everyone else's genius breakthrough proving the legitimate brokenness of APS

If 5 aps with a permaspark isn't broken then I want PWE to un-nerf my bramble hood and bramble gaurd to actually reflect some DD back to them in PvP.

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

Heres why 5ap ins't broken......wait for it......wait for it...because...................because.....its there.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

Continue the argue, i am going to look some food for my blood type diet b:bye

Fleuri - Sanctuary

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

people dont act like they are better than math. they are.
at least if u say that the dps of a wiz/psy is higher than a 5aps.

*rolls eyes*

dps is situational:

dps of a wizard on a nirvana boss is not higher than 5aps.

dps of a wizard in delta is higher than 5aps.

One person will see this and go "5aps is broken", another person will see this and go "we need additional high-end content". Then the "5aps is broken" types start saying ... well, you know...

Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear

5aps isn't broken because it's working perfectly fine. Was 5aps intended when the int system was implemented? Maybe, maybe not. But it's certainly not a glitch.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

5aps isn't broken because it's working perfectly fine. Was 5aps intended when the int system was implemented? Maybe, maybe not. But it's certainly not a glitch.

Actually it was a mistake on summing up the interval by someone who made the code
I remember the a thread about these . . b:chuckle

But i guess after found out it's making more money = not mistake ?