Proving that 5aps isn't broken

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

-Yep, 300 stam vs 500 stam: Save the nickles and dimes.

basically chi siphon gives u more chi/sec (despite the larger energy cost combaring to the lvl1 version of CE, even if we put those points in mag). as u said it's also cheaper (well, it needs 2mil spirit though)

Naivety - Harshlands

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

I'll give you 1 mil if you kill Luctircia for me....20 times. b:chuckle
<.< I want an SS of it though.

I told her I'd kill her myself, but I'm too lazy to log in and do anything else except mess around in WC and small talk in West Arch. That's about all that's fun in this game anymore anyways.


And yes Mosz....with a bow. Pretty scary thought, isn't it?

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9a1af387f50580d9

Not 5.0 but holy **** wow that would hurt.

Im assuming there is some archer skill that would raise the atk rate?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

And yes Mosz....with a bow. Pretty scary thought, isn't it?

Archers don't get 5 APS with a bow. Not even remotely close. Fist/claw yes. Bow no. Still don't get why you think you're in a position to tell anybody else..

you don't know what the hell you're talking about

.. when you say things like that.

prof

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9a1af387f50580d9

Not 5.0 but holy **** wow that would hurt.

Im assuming there is some archer skill that would raise the atk rate?

dartle. dartle is +.33% as compared to the +.25% from 3fury, but it's a negligible difference.

Naivety - Harshlands

prof wrote: »

dartle. dartle is +.33% as compared to the +.25% from 3fury, but it's a negligible difference.

What the **** is dartle?

prof

you'll have to forgive me, i'm more familiar with the malaysian terms. dartle is 'quick shot'.

Naivety - Harshlands

prof wrote: »

you'll have to forgive me, i'm more familiar with the malaysian terms. dartle is 'quick shot'.

O I C.

I still want to make an R8 int archer now. Almost 30k Phy atk from that set up in Demon Spark. Youd get like 17 shots off per 3spark, thats like 3-17 people dead in no time whatsoever lol b:dirty

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

-It would help if you actually backed up this nonsense instead of repeating it. Where is your source concerning *because they're squishy*? "anybody" isn't a source.

It would actually help if you would just accept the fact you made a dumb comparison.

You want source and confirmation from someone when you yourself are only giving supposed "first hand" expierences.

all i see you retort are "i did it, I r Cool, so can you" and "i'm an uber veno i make barbs cry and 5.0's bm's dont stand a chance with me, therefor APS isn't broken."

I'm sorry, blowing your own horn on this one isn't saving your butt.

neither is asking for comfirmation from other people's "source".

tweakz

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

basically chi siphon gives u more chi/sec (despite the larger energy cost combaring to the lvl1 version of CE, even if we put those points in mag). as u said it's also cheaper (well, it needs 2mil spirit though)

Oh.. I was comparing what I had, which is Siphon lvl 3 with CE lvl 1. (separate genies) The CE genie has 103 Str, and the other 100dex. The chi gained from either is comparable (about 1 1/2 sparks). Wasn't thinking about the level of the skills. *doh

Biggest difference is cost per use. However when I wanna AoE 1 shot ~50 mobs or so with a veno, I prefer the ease of triple spark with CE -> Nova.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

Oh.. I was comparing what I had, which is Siphon lvl 3 with CE lvl 1. (separate genies) The CE genie has 103 Str, and the other 100dex. The chi gained from either is comparable (about 1 1/2 sparks). Wasn't thinking about the level of the skills. *doh

lvl1 CE gives 0.83 chi per energy spend while lvl10 gives 0.81
lvl1 CS gives 0.5 c/e while lvl10 gives 1.2c/e

to maximize chi/sec u should put enough points in vit and the rest in mag (however this wont give u max chi "per hit" ofc).

i have a spreadsheet but it's kinda messy atm

Naivety - Harshlands

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lvl1 CE gives 0.83 chi per energy spend while lvl10 gives 0.81
lvl1 CS gives 0.5 c/e while lvl10 gives 1.2c/e

to maximize chi/sec u should put enough points in vit and the rest in mag (however this wont give u max chi "per hit" ofc).

i have a spreadsheet but it's kinda messy atm

Im too lazy to make calculations, but from what ive seen and done, Cloud Eruption is best at LV1 with high regen, meaning very easy chi-over-time, since you gain a spark everytime you click it. Thats something like every 40 seconds for me.

Whereas from what ive SEEN and mentally worked out, from Siphon your very limited as to spamming it for more chi, but you can very nicely use it to of course gain 2-3-(Possibly?)4 (399) sparks on the spot.

Meaning triple sparking after being purged of a triple spark or w/e would be very possible, assuming you didnt just use your genie to get the original 3sparks :P

Might look at testing Siphon on a new genie. Does anyone know if it would go on a Relentless Courage based Genie or not? Ive yet to find a PWcalc type thing for genies Q_Q and it makes it annoying to work out sometimes.

Arshies - Sanctuary

TrueJustice - Harshlands wrote: »

I have never even seen gears with 2x -6% channeling.
You are talking like 3x -6% gears are available for everyone.

I just saw a -12%chan ring at Sanctuary, so far my current best channeling gear is -57%

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's not just 5.0aps, it's 5.0 aps plus the ability to permaspark. Demon spark adds 500% weapon attack, thats the same weapon attack multiple on a wizards Black Ice Dragon Strike. 500% weapon attack bonus not on an ultimate skill but on every attack, at 5 attacks every second.

Anyway 5.0 permasparked is about 9 times more DPS than the base dps of 1.43 aps unsparked you examined. Tell me what -channeling gear is there available that can give a caster 9 times more DPS than their base DPS?

This makes the difference!! even a good channeling, beeing sage, and genie cloud eruption I CAN'T spark so faster like demon aps users do it.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Arshies - Sanctuary wrote: »

This makes the difference!! even a good channeling, beeing sage, and genie cloud eruption I CAN'T spark so faster like demon aps users do it.

Who said you were ever suppose to? Being able to spark as often doesn't make the two classes equal but everyone seems to think that.

tweakz

Why would we want to be equal? Some venos thought I was full of **** when I mentioned how much faster you can grind one of the array mobs in OHT with a cactopod from Eden than you could with a Phoenix or Herc (cactos hit very light but are ranged attack).

Grinding in VoS with a BM, they wanted me to pass them sparks so they could HF not realizing that my Nova needed sparks too and I could kill as fast w/o him.

Maybe there's some good AoE BMs out there, but from what I can see: they stun -> HF -> atk and in 3 steps haven't done half the AoE Dmg of a decent caster with 1 atk. And for that matter Venos have Nova, and Wiz's have Mountain's Seize and both do heavy dmg while stunning. BMs are also usually trailing along behind Barbs, Venos, and the one great wiz I'm familiar with unless they're HP'ing it in which case burning all the coin they could make on the run.

Casters aren't hated by the devs: they're simply treated as smarter.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Why would we want to be equal? Some venos thought I was full of **** when I mentioned how much faster you can grind one of the array mobs in OHT with a cactopod from Eden than you could with a Phoenix or Herc (cactos hit very light but are ranged attack).

Grinding in VoS with a BM, they wanted me to pass them sparks so they could HF not realizing that my Nova needed sparks too and I could kill as fast w/o him.

Maybe there's some good AoE BMs out there, but from what I can see: they stun -> HF -> atk and in 3 steps haven't done half the AoE Dmg of a decent caster with 1 atk. And for that matter Venos have Nova, and Wiz's have Mountain's Seize and both do heavy dmg while stunning. BMs are also usually trailing along behind Barbs, Venos, and the one great wiz I'm familiar with.

Casters aren't hated by the devs: they're simply treated as smarter.

If veno's were so good at AOE's, especially better than BM's, why is it in rebirth veno's dont get aggro over BM's? Their AOE's are spammable. Veno has nova, noxious, then what? Myriad? Genie skill like bramble rage? None of those are good enough to be yanking aggro from BM's, and it still is pretty quick for psychics and wizards to steal and keep aggro off alpha male and roar both, combined with barb or BM AOE dmg, because they have either a constant AOE hitting or are spammable or damn near spammable. Veno for AOE instance is down near the bottom with cleric. BM can just sit there spamming stun hf sweep fissure cleave, and if those are in cooldown fan, then sweep again and repeat. Veno does not have continuous AOE, outdmg very few classes, if any, and thus are only chosen when nobody can find a better AOE DD combo like archer/wiz/psy, and are usually even chosen behind a sin. The cooldown on sin AOEs suck but hey, they have bloodpaint, can AOE amp (venos can only hope myriad rainbow does armor and/or mind break), and have very high crit rates+crit dmg, as well as are way faster runners than venos (well, sage venos at least) thanks to running skills. You are greatly exaggerating venos with AOE. I love my veno but they are not comparable to even a BM with AOE.

Naivety - Harshlands

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If veno's were so good at AOE's, especially better than BM's, why is it in rebirth veno's dont get aggro over BM's? Their AOE's are spammable. Veno has nova, noxious, then what? Myriad? Genie skill like bramble rage? None of those are good enough to be yanking aggro from BM's, and it still is pretty quick for psychics and wizards to steal and keep aggro off alpha male and roar both, combined with barb or BM AOE dmg, because they have either a constant AOE hitting or are spammable or damn near spammable. Veno for AOE instance is down near the bottom with cleric. BM can just sit there spamming stun hf sweep fissure cleave, and if those are in cooldown fan, then sweep again and repeat. Veno does not have continuous AOE, outdmg very few classes, if any, and thus are only chosen when nobody can find a better AOE DD combo like archer/wiz/psy, and are usually even chosen behind a sin. The cooldown on sin AOEs suck but hey, they have bloodpaint, can AOE amp (venos can only hope myriad rainbow does armor and/or mind break), and have very high crit rates+crit dmg, as well as are way faster runners than venos (well, sage venos at least) thanks to running skills. You are greatly exaggerating venos with AOE. I love my veno but they are not comparable to even a BM with AOE.

I think you jumped a lil too far there. But then again prolly not.

He didnt depict a scale of time, so hes kind of right, a BMs AoEs are seriously bollocks in one straight run compared to a veno's pair, the veno wil do more damage. However now the veno is in CD and the BM is spamming the set again from the start, building much more damage. However in AoE grinding as opposed to GV the BM is having to run around and junk while the veno happily build chi and lets things cooldown, so the Veno WILL deal more damage. In GV things are constantly being hit as the BM just goes AoE after AoE whereas the veno is suffering CD problems every few seconds.

Basically in the same way that I kill faster with CotD on in PvP than sins using autoattack. I hit damn hard 2-3 times and rack up way more damage, but then autoattack starts to build rediculous damge and soon outstrips my damage by miiiiiiiiles.

But yeah, on this one... I think your both right and wrong you know :P

tweakz

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If veno's were so good at AOE's, especially better than BM's, why is it in rebirth veno's dont get aggro over BM's?

Lol? Why am I constantly going fox form and running in circles in RB?

Their AOE's are spammable. Veno has nova, noxious, then what? Myriad?

and: Malefic Crush (after Myriad), and Befuddling Mist (though probably not worth mentioning). Wiz's Dragon's Breath does a very weak AoE every 3s regardless of channeling. -that's easy to out dd.

Genie skill like bramble rage?

Tried that skill and wouldn't waste my coin on it. It's dmg is pitiful: better off with Tangling Mire because it scales with your dmg.

Veno does not have continuous AOE, outdmg very few classes, if any, and thus are only chosen when nobody can find a better AOE DD combo like archer/wiz/psy, and are usually even chosen behind a sin.

We don't need spammable. Just because most venos are fail, doesn't mean we all suck at doing our job. Most wiz's I come across do not out AoE dd me (with DB), and most Archers don't out 1-1 dd me and that's using a mere +10 TT99 weapon. I'm pretty sure Venos despite being the go to class for fails are still chosen over sins for RB. On top of having great AoE, and mix of mag/phys 1-1 dmg: Sages have -20% HP debuff, Demons have +30% AoE amp, Sage has +30% 1-1 amp, and both have the myriads. If more people actually played veno well: they'd be in higher demand.

The cooldown on sin AOEs suck but hey, they have bloodpaint, can AOE amp (venos can only hope myriad rainbow does armor and/or mind break), and have very high crit rates+crit dmg, as well as are way faster runners than venos (well, sage venos at least) thanks to running skills. You are greatly exaggerating venos with AOE. I love my veno but they are not comparable to even a BM with AOE.

Demon veno has AoE amp with Nova. Bloodpaint doesn't contribute to dmg. Armor / Mind break working is on a per mob basis so it helps regardless since getting the numbers down helps focus on what's left for the not so great AoE bunch.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

I think you jumped a lil too far there. But then again prolly not.

He didnt depict a scale of time, so hes kind of right, a BMs AoEs are seriously bollocks in one straight run compared to a veno's pair, the veno wil do more damage. However now the veno is in CD and the BM is spamming the set again from the start, building much more damage. However in AoE grinding as opposed to GV the BM is having to run around and junk while the veno happily build chi and lets things cooldown, so the Veno WILL deal more damage. In GV things are constantly being hit as the BM just goes AoE after AoE whereas the veno is suffering CD problems every few seconds.

Basically in the same way that I kill faster with CotD on in PvP than sins using autoattack. I hit damn hard 2-3 times and rack up way more damage, but then autoattack starts to build rediculous damge and soon outstrips my damage by miiiiiiiiles.

But yeah, on this one... I think your both right and wrong you know :P

No argument from me there. From this perspective I can agree. If the mobs are very low in HP and only require 1/2 shots it would be dumb for a BM to stun+hf anyways.

tweakz wrote: »

Lol? Why am I constantly going fox form and running in circles in RB?

and: Malefic Crush (after Myriad), Befuddling Mist. Wiz's Dragon's Breath does a very weak AoE every 3s regardless of channeling.

Tried that skill and wouldn't waste my coin on it. It's dmg is pitiful.

We don't need spammable. Just because most venos are fail, doesn't mean we all suck at doing our job. Most wiz's I come across do not out AoE dd me, and most Archers don't out 1-1 dd me and that's using a mere +10 TT99 weapon.

Demon veno has AoE amp with Nova. Bloodpaint doesn't contribute to dmg. Armor / Mind break working is on a per mob basis so it helps regardless since getting the numbers down helps focus on what's left for the not so great AoE bunch.

Couple things:

- While wiz DB can be overtaken rather easily by psychics, this is not the case for venos. I actually did a RB BH with you not long ago on my wizard. You did not ever have aggro. I did, with a crappy +5 TT99 wep. If venos did nearly as much dmg as you claim they did (I used to compete with BM's for mobs AOE grinding over a year and a half ago, and vice versa), they would have aggro more often as a result, like wizards and psychics do, and sometimes even archers. I can see why grinding arrays might benefit a veno more since it takes a few hits to kill them, so CD has little effect. In the long run of AOE grinding, or even in any AOE instance, venos are not even close.

- Not much to mess around with concerning bloodpaint, it's obviously greatly beneficial to barbs and BM's. Far more than bramble.

As for the wizards, that would be highly surprising, especially now with most endgame wizzies having Rank 8 / 9 now. Even +0 I don't think you are much of a threat to the aggro they take. Willing to stand corrected though if I see it. Will keep an eye open and pay extra attention to this since sometimes you do know what you're talking about.

tweakz

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Couple things:

- While wiz DB can be overtaken rather easily by psychics, this is not the case for venos.

Maybe you're thinking Sage Dragon's Breath which includes a stun which leads to a great deal of aggro (because of the stun; not dmg).

wiz
Dragon's Breath Lv.10: base magic damage plus 4458.2 every 3s

Veno
1) Noxious: base magic damage plus 200% of weapon damage plus 1501.4. Enemies will also suffer 1501.4 Wood damage over 9 seconds (more dependent on weapon refine)
2) Nova: base magic damage plus 300% of weapon damage plus 4564.9
3) Noxious: base magic damage plus 200% of weapon damage plus 1501.4. Enemies will also suffer 1501.4 Wood damage over 9 seconds (more dependent on weapon refine)
4) Myriad Rainbow (fox)
5) Malefic Crush: base physical damage plus 7556.0

-Now figure those first few steps with HF, and any veno with decent channeling is going to get sparks ready for the next cycle with very little if any down time. Veno AoEs are also much larger hitting ranged as well.

I actually did a RB BH with you not long ago on my wizard. You did not ever have aggro. I did, with a crappy +5 TT99 wep.

Lately I've started using different equips and holding back. BH RB is also not full RB. Most veno AoE require chi (Nova, Myriad, Malefic) which is fine for FB/Bh runs or RB when chi aura is +2 or better. I also doubt you always had aggro on all mobs. Even with my high defense gears otherwise used for 3-3BH: I still end up getting hit. The Wiz's advantage is in the 2 spark AoE's: not DB. DB is just nice for hands free operation and eliminates the chi issue associated with most of the Wiz's AoEs.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

Im too lazy to make calculations, but from what ive seen and done, Cloud Eruption is best at LV1 with high regen, meaning very easy chi-over-time, since you gain a spark everytime you click it. Thats something like every 40 seconds for me.

Whereas from what ive SEEN and mentally worked out, from Siphon your very limited as to spamming it for more chi, but you can very nicely use it to of course gain 2-3-(Possibly?)4 (399) sparks on the spot.

Meaning triple sparking after being purged of a triple spark or w/e would be very possible, assuming you didnt just use your genie to get the original 3sparks :P

Might look at testing Siphon on a new genie. Does anyone know if it would go on a Relentless Courage based Genie or not? Ive yet to find a PWcalc type thing for genies Q_Q and it makes it annoying to work out sometimes.

i kinda prefer CE vs siphon pvp-wise mostly cause i dont need a target within 15m
i plan to make a siphon genie so i can spark 3 times per min in boss fights etc

here is a gift for the new yearb:cute
http://astersite.webfreehosting.net/pw/genieskillplanner.html

tweakz

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

here is a gift for the new yearb:cute
http://astersite.webfreehosting.net/pw/genieskillplanner.html

Sweet! b:victory

Naivety - Harshlands

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i kinda prefer CE vs siphon pvp-wise mostly cause i dont need a target within 15m
i plan to make a siphon genie so i can spark 3 times per min in boss fights etc

here is a gift for the new yearb:cute
http://astersite.webfreehosting.net/pw/genieskillplanner.html

:Q______________

THATS AWESOME LOOKING.

Shame it wont work on my browser. O well, I can wait.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

:Q______________

THATS AWESOME LOOKING.

Shame it wont work on my browser. O well, I can wait.

IE sucks : <

Naivety - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

IE sucks : <

Its basically a part of windows, doesnt really require a seperate installation and works for everything but some of the tiny things people make. Im happy. I dont want chrome spending 400mb of my connection (Yay 50gb limit) by reloading every link on my page in an attempt to appear "faster", Opera just makes me want to kill someone and FireFox is damn UGLY.

All IMO ofc b:cute

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

Its basically a part of windows, doesnt really require a seperate installation and works for everything but some of the tiny things people make. Im happy. I dont want chrome spending 400mb of my connection (Yay 50gb limit) by reloading every link on my page in an attempt to appear "faster", Opera just makes me want to kill someone and FireFox is damn UGLY.

All IMO ofc b:cute

*trolls about windows*b:chuckle

Jadsia - Lost City

You are not proving APS isn't broken since your analogy is limited to a veno acquiring some very expensive because it's very rare gears. For your analogy to even come close to having some validity you'll have to have as many 0% channeling venos as there are 5.0 APS DDs. As we play this game we deal with 'in game reality' and not the theorectical hyperbole you posted here. Just because it may be possible doesn't make it probable.

Now, if the APS deal wasn't truly broken we would still have all class squads for nirvana, TT, Lunar, BH, etc. but we don't. We have squads that are very exclusive to a certain class of DDs. Just a fact there.

Not only is it broken when certain classes can be totally excluded from running instances like mentioned above it's not fair either. Wizards and psychics, etc. need to run them to build their toons too.

Bring some balance back into the game. At least eliminate the permaspark by increasing the cooldown times of sparking or something.

tweakz

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

You are not proving APS isn't broken since your analogy is limited to a veno acquiring some very expensive because it's very rare gears. For your analogy to even come close to having some validity you'll have to have as many 0% channeling venos as there are 5.0 APS DDs. As we play this game we deal with 'in game reality' and not the theorectical hyperbole you posted here. Just because it may be possible doesn't make it probable.

Now, if the APS deal wasn't truly broken we would still have all class squads for nirvana, TT, Lunar, BH, etc. but we don't. We have squads that are very exclusive to a certain class of DDs. Just a fact there.

Not only is it broken when certain classes can be totally excluded from running instances like mentioned above it's not fair either. Wizards and psychics, etc. need to run them to build their toons too.

Bring some balance back into the game. At least eliminate the permaspark by increasing the cooldown times of sparking or something.

Please read the thread and catch up. Wiz, Psych don't need Nirvana. They have their strengths, it's just people like you ignore them.

Quilue - Sanctuary

I thought the only reason people still went Nirvana was to get the -int pants.

Born_Free - Harshlands

tweakz wrote: »

Wiz, Psych don't need Nirvana. They have their strengths, it's just people like you ignore them.

Oh my god.....
You're going to put me in a bloody coma Tweakz. You really are! If I laugh at you much harder I may very well cough up a lung!


I DARE you to go to the Wizard or Psychic forums and claim that they don't need Nirvana gear. Hell, you don't even have to, I'll do it for you. I'm all curious about the answers now.

It is BEYOND me how someone who barely plays a caster class themselves could even possibly draw such a simple-minded conclusion! Oh god, don't say your Venomancer is a caster class.....you're hardly more than a Blademaster with a tail and a QQbird....if you even have one. Do you even use a pet? I'm so curious.

Why on EARTH would a caster NOT get Nirvana gear, particularly since TT is going out of date? Especially since we have to claw people's eyes out simply to get a squad in anything anymore? How are we supposed to compete with TT gear, for those of us who can't afford Rank? It's much more difficult to hold your own with just TT these days, what with all the Rank spam and Nirvana wearers with -int gear.

So what's your plan, tweakiez? Wait for the new instance coming around in Genesis?
Hardly. If there's no patience for leveling, there's definitely no time to wait for new gear. In the meantime, what are you expecting us to wear?

Oh wait, don't tell me-- We'll all restat to 5.0, amiright? Oh, the lolz. I can see all the LA Psychics running around now.....

Wizards and Psychics don't need Nirvana my left ****! (Well, if I happened to HAVE a ****....) You must be out of your blinking mind! Dear lord I hope it's not contagious-- I'll have to disinfect my hands after typing this up just in case....gods...
You really are an amusing creature, aren't you?

Most casters need Nirvana or better to compete anymore against APS classes. It's quite true, it's just most people like you tend to ignore it. :<


By the way, you still haven't managed to prove how APS isn't broken.....

We're waiting......it's been quite a few pages, and all you've managed to do is dribble on about your APS Venomancer.....

Quilue - Sanctuary

If you can't afford R8 with that sale you certainly can't afford Nirvana.

Even R9 armor is not that much more expensive than Nirvana if you got some of the medals from DQ points