Idea to help improve the APS problem.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This post makes a lot of sense, so barbs AREN'T useless in Nirvana, I just knew it. I never had a tough time in duels on any class, without genies.

well, not rly.
ppl gonna pick claw barb anyway.. devour increase dmg by like 20% (?) in NV, and if squad have cleric or veno already, then gain from devour isnt big anymore..


axe barbs or wizzes, go to nirvana because they have friends, not because they are effective DDs

Born_Free - Harshlands

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Bingo was his name-o.

All classes have their strong points, it just seems every APS thread turns into all of them wanting to be equal in PvE, but I'm sorry that's just not going to happen. Learn to enjoy the strong points of your class, and reroll if you want to have different strong points.

This right here. Yes.

If the company wanted this game to be equal, they'd have never come out with 5aps, Mages, Elf Archers, Elf Priests with Ironheart, Werefoxes (Venomancers) with Hercs and QQbirds, Barbarians with 20k HP, Assassins in general, or Psychics with 16k Soulforce that could land just about any class (if they're stupid enough to attack you) in less than two hits.

There's nothing fair about this game anymore. Looking back, there barely was anything fair about it to begin with; some of us were just too busy actually enjoying the game to realize what we'd gotten ourselves into.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

There's nothing fair about this game anymore. Looking back, there barely was anything fair about it to begin with;

There never was. OP has just shifed from class to class. First it was venos. Then it was archers with their debuff bows. Then it was 5.0 BMs. Now it's 5.0 sins. Two new classes coming out, they'll probably bring a whole new flood of "it's op QQ nerf it".

Moerten - Lost City

A couple of mistakes here...

First would be getting Scroll of Tome for a wizard. Scroll of Tome would pay for a +12 orb. 250m for -1% channeling is lame. Use that to refine a Nirvana weapon higher, it will be far more beneficial.

Lunar rings are -6% channeling not -3%.

You didnt get my point, Michael. I meant int > channeling. You can get same ammount of channeling items for an AA user as int items for sin/bm and it makes huge difference in pve/pvp. Actually lets say. You have to compare a BM without channeling gears using GX and a mage without channling gears using hh90 gold magic sword. Physical dds > magical dd in pve. Upgrading channeling/int on those classes its just making that gap bigger. Got my point? Also to continue that point 5 aps > +12 mage user in pve.

PD. Yes, writting fast, wrote wrong the channeling value for cv rings.

I guess you've never faced Elayne, Yali, Ehee, Amour, Haiz, Ayla, Stupidity, etc.. or any other Rank 8 or G15 Nirvana wizard with +12 weapons in TW or PvP.

Mages are just as broken in PvP and TW as 5 aps is in PvE.

Even mages are afraid of other mages in TW, more than any other class.

Yes, I dunno what is pvp and tw at all. Im sry to say, but even those rank 8/g15 drop pretty fast to any int char without decent gears like their targets. I already killed Elayne, Amour, Asiris on my noob sin with highest refine +6. If u wanna to have a broken char for pvp as You say You need to CS ur *** to make all ur eq +10/12 and You still can die. Ofc I have a mage with some +10'd items and I can pretty frequently kill int users dealing 20k+ dmg - still I need to use ultis to do this, while int user just occult ice and normal attack to get most of AA users down.

Anyway again, You didnt get my point. I wanted to prove that channeling is giving no advantadge at all to AA users compaing to int users in PvP. Ofc a lot depends how You play, kite, etc. I just wanted to show an example - while mage with close to -50% channeling can use 2 normal spells on You, You can hit him 15 times. He will do 4k per hit, You will do 800 per hit. I hope You get what I meant.

PD. Totally agree. Last TWs I had in Spectral vs Essence as mage - I was pretty much dying only by mages, not by heavy users... Enough to say that I was running thru 200 magic def charms / TW.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Your reduced channel benefits you from within 30 range, while -int for melees only comes into effect when the melee reaches you. I guess with sins that is no problem, but you can always see BMs and barbs coming.

Furthermore, -chan lets you cast disables faster. For example, given the same range, a veno will pop stun faster than an archer does because one equips -chan and the other equips -int. A well geared Veno can finish channeling stun before an archer even has time to channel Wings of Grace. A BM uses normal attack to kill, but he still has to stun, and Force of Will can cast faster than Roar or Drake's Bash if the wizard has -chan equipment.

Of course sins just defy all this balance with an instant channel stun and reaching melee range easily with stealth...but if one can't prove that -int in general is broken in PvP as well, then one shouldn't change it period. The solution should be isolated to the problem itself, change PvE instead of messing with -int in general.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Moerten - Lost City wrote: »

You didnt get my point, Michael. I meant int > channeling. You can get same ammount of channeling items for an AA user as int items for sin/bm and it makes huge difference in pve/pvp. Actually lets say. You have to compare a BM without channeling gears using GX and a mage without channling gears using hh90 gold magic sword. Physical dds > magical dd in pve. Upgrading channeling/int on those classes its just making that gap bigger. Got my point? Also to continue that point 5 aps > +12 mage user in pve.

PD. Yes, writting fast, wrote wrong the channeling value for cv rings.

Yes, you're complaining that my pickup truck will carry more than your sports car... which incidentally also will go faster than my pickup truck. Yes, life on PWI is so unfair.

Stacking large amounts of -channeling does help in PvP quite a bit.

Yes, I dunno what is pvp and tw at all. Im sry to say, but even those rank 8/g15 drop pretty fast to any int char without decent gears like their targets. I already killed Elayne, Amour, Asiris on my noob sin with highest refine +6. If u wanna to have a broken char for pvp as You say You need to CS ur *** to make all ur eq +10/12 and You still can die. Ofc I have a mage with some +10'd items and I can pretty frequently kill int users dealing 20k+ dmg - still I need to use ultis to do this, while int user just occult ice and normal attack to get most of AA users down.

Anyway again, You didnt get my point. I wanted to prove that channeling is giving no advantadge at all to AA users compaing to int users in PvP. Ofc a lot depends how You play, kite, etc. I just wanted to show an example - while mage with close to -50% channeling can use 2 normal spells on You, You can hit him 15 times. He will do 4k per hit, You will do 800 per hit. I hope You get what I meant.

PD. Totally agree. Last TWs I had in Spectral vs Essence as mage - I was pretty much dying only by mages, not by heavy users... Enough to say that I was running thru 200 magic def charms / TW.

You proved nothing. You've killed Elayne, Amour and Asiris? lol I've never even heard of you and I've never seen you in pk. I won't call you a liar, but I've yet to see or even hear about you in pk mode. As for being a sin in PK, yes you have stealth and surprise and there's no question that sin stealth is broken.

Saying -channeling doesn't have an effect is just silly.

Moerten - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Your reduced channel benefits you from within 30 range, while -int for melees only comes into effect when the melee reaches you. I guess with sins that is no problem, but you can always see BMs and barbs coming.

Furthermore, -chan lets you cast disables faster. For example, given the same range, a veno will pop stun faster than an archer does because one equips -chan and the other equips -int. A well geared Veno can finish channeling stun before an archer even has time to channel Wings of Grace. A BM uses normal attack to kill, but he still has to stun, and Force of Will can cast faster than Roar or Drake's Bash if the wizard has -chan equipment.

Of course sins just defy all this balance with an instant channel stun and reaching melee range easily with stealth...but if one can't prove that -int in general is broken in PvP as well, then one shouldn't change it period. The solution should be isolated to the problem itself, change PvE instead of messing with -int in general.

I totally agree with this. I think the pvp is so to so "balanced" - more based on skills, genies, ur abilities, etc - tho my point is that different classes should DPS (damage per second) equally based on gears value, i.e. no matter its PvP or PvE, if You have same ammount of -int and -channeling gears the dmg should be in close range and its not. Lets say a Mage with 3 channeling gears should deal in 30 seconds similiar (im not saying the same or more, but at least similiar) to a bm/sin with 3 int gears in same period of time.

Once again Im not saying they should nerf/change -int, but maybe as some mentioned here before - decrease the element defence of bosses in instances or increasing the effect of channeling to make it more equal with int.

PS I still cant wait for a day when ppl will start wc'ing "LF nirvana squad minimum 3,33 aps or -30% channeling" - that would be fun

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Moerten - Lost City wrote: »

I totally agree with this. I think the pvp is so to so "balanced" - more based on skills, genies, ur abilities, etc - tho my point is that different classes should DPS (damage per second) equally based on gears value, i.e. no matter its PvP or PvE, if You have same ammount of -int and -channeling gears the dmg should be in close range and its not. Lets say a Mage with 3 channeling gears should deal in 30 seconds similiar (im not saying the same or more, but at least similiar) to a bm/sin with 3 int gears in same period of time.

When did you start playing PW?

Your logic is horrible. Giving ranged magic classes similar overall damage? You do realize a BM or Sin has a range of 2 meters, right? You do realize that casters have a range of 30 meters or more, right?

Give casters similar dps of melee classes, and the game would be even more unbalanced than it is now.

BTW, it's only this "melee vs. single target" that aps users have an advantage. Pay attention to the first half of the Celestial Tiger event and you would understand. APS doesn't mean anything except in that "melee vs. single target" debate.

BTW, in HH, 3-x, this has mostly been fixed. Many of the bosses are much easier to kill if you have a mage or archer tank them. b:bye

Kataguruma - Harshlands

Moerten - Lost City wrote: »

I totally agree with this. I think the pvp is so to so "balanced" - more based on skills, genies, ur abilities, etc - tho my point is that different classes should DPS (damage per second) equally based on gears value, i.e. no matter its PvP or PvE, if You have same ammount of -int and -channeling gears the dmg should be in close range and its not. Lets say a Mage with 3 channeling gears should deal in 30 seconds similiar (im not saying the same or more, but at least similiar) to a bm/sin with 3 int gears in same period of time.

Once again Im not saying they should nerf/change -int, but maybe as some mentioned here before - decrease the element defence of bosses in instances or increasing the effect of channeling to make it more equal with int.

PS I still cant wait for a day when ppl will start wc'ing "LF nirvana squad minimum 3,33 aps or -30% channeling" - that would be fun

I answer about what is in yellow,
I dont agree that every class should have same DPS. If they had, the term DDer wont exist anymore. Why every class should be equal in PvE??? Why can't they be better in PvP or PvE only? I agree on what Michael_Dark said. Some class has big adventage that isn't calculated in term of damage.

NightRage - Raging Tide

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

.

You sad braindead child, Old TT is a special instance that you MUST be 90+ to get into. You WOULDN'T know about it because you've never gotten that high.

Yulk - Heavens Tear

NightRage - Raging Tide wrote: »

Old TT is a special instance that you MUST be 90+ to get into. You WOULDN'T know about it because you've never gotten that high.

Aww, butthurt kid.

TT does have minimum level limit for a SQUAD LEADER. I still cannot even open TT1-1 by myself, I have to get a 6x to open it for me. I can go to any TT I want, and join on just to help open, or join people even in 3-x runs... So there you go. Are you sure you are up to date on quests or you just whoracled your game? Sounds like it. Also, you need some anger management kid, I recommend it.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Aww, butthurt kid.

TT does have minimum level limit for a SQUAD LEADER. I still cannot even open TT1-1 by myself, I have to get a 6x to open it for me. I can go to any TT I want, and join on just to help open, or join people even in 3-x runs... So there you go. Are you sure you are up to date on quests or you just whoracled your game? Sounds like it. Also, you need some anger management kid, I recommend it.

do you also help people with their nirvanas?

i think that the above post sums up your whole character:
while you know nothing about higher level instances/gameplay you are arrogant enough to assume that every higher leveled player is an idiot and preach your own views.

while i hope that you will one day unlock the past oht maps and go to the old tt, i dont really see that happening

Quinnie - Heavens Tear

all the QQ its just funny..

u had the nix bleed
that venos could do tt alone and made tons and tons of money
that archers/wizzys control wraith/legion with their range
the stealth from sins
that psychics are to strong
people with high interval + fist/claw/dagger

the next QQ will be about the new classes prolly


seriously stop QQing.. every class can be op it just takes time/grinding/and alot of will power/some smart thinking. u wont get powerfull for free u have to work for it

ppl are to focused on 1 thing. u forget that fist/claw/dagger are close range weapons. if a mob/boss/target/etc moves they have to run after it and the repair costs are high.

a game is never perfectly balanced, the balance will always shift around.

and making bm only able to get 4.0+ aps is just a game kill because most ppl would roll a bm. i made my barb 5.0 couple weeks ago and it opend a new world of fun. it costed me quite alot but thats where i saved up for.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Quinnie - Heavens Tear wrote: »

seriously stop QQing.. every class can be op it just takes time/grinding/and alot of will power/some smart thinking. u wont get powerfull for free u have to work for it

see, that's my concern, even if i spend a ton of money (irl or not) on my psy, he still wont be "op" pve-wise.

just made those builds:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=d861a86dd3011410

this psy does ~33.7k damage per sec, so 6.7k every 1/5 of a sec

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f0f39b264a867e80
as I understand it a regular hit deals dmg equal to the base p.attack,
so this bm (assuming a 5aps build) does ~7.6k dmg every 1/5 of a sec

(for both builds i assumed that they use the +30 attack level blessing. for the psy the spell was sage aqua blast, i calculated the sage aqua spirit +25% water damage)
note that the rest of the equipment of the bm would further boost his attack.
i didnt calculate the crits but clearly the bm, even without equipment has an advantage.

would this psy rock in pvp? well yes.
is that enough to balance it? no. some servers are pve anyway

Susylu - Heavens Tear

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

would this psy rock in pvp? well yes.
is that enough to balance it? no. some servers are pve anyway

I think everyone pretty much already agreed that it's not balanced.

I also think most smart people stopped asking for balance and instead started to do what was necessary to play with it regardless (ie arcane characters rolling melee for pve and melee rolling arcane for pvp, barbs/archers getting interval, etc).

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Susylu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think everyone pretty much already agreed that it's not balanced.

I also think most smart people stopped asking for balance and instead started to do what was necessary to play with it regardless (ie arcane characters rolling melee for pve and melee rolling arcane for pvp, barbs/archers getting interval, etc).

hm, i think that i read quite a lot of posts with the following arguments:
1)it's balanced because it takes a lot of money to reach 5aps
2)it's balanced because mages are required in TW
i wouldnt say that pretty much everyone agreed to that.

well, asking for balance doesnt really cost anything.
ofc i'm not waiting for a solution with my arms crossed, I try to merchandise (and enjoying it!). after all the game is about having fun and i would rather break rocks for minimum wage than play a bm.
waiting for the new classes though b:avoid

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Susylu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think everyone pretty much already agreed that it's not balanced.

There never really has been any balance. It's always shifting from one class to another, and that's one of the strategies that PWE uses to make money.

Pets for venos
Rank 8/Nirvana for mages
debuff for archers
APS for BM/sin/archer

Next will be one of the new classes.

The only class so far that does not really have their own 'killer ap' are clerics.

Susylu - Heavens Tear

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

hm, i think that i read quite a lot of posts with the following arguments:
1)it's balanced because it takes a lot of money to reach 5aps
2)it's balanced because mages are required in TW
i wouldnt say that pretty much everyone agreed to that.

well, asking for balance doesnt really cost anything.
ofc i'm not waiting for a solution with my arms crossed, I try to merchandise (and enjoying it!). after all the game is about having fun and i would rather break rocks for minimum wage than play a bm.
waiting for the new classes though b:avoid

I don't know - I think those are more arguments of why it shouldn't be nerfed, rather than why it's balanced (if you can understand the difference).

ie it shouldn't be nerfed because it took a lot of money. it shouldn't be nerfed because in terms of pvp mages are better (again, mentioning the unbalance-ness of classes in certain areas).

Does that make any sense or am I just speaking to myself b:laugh

I can't wait for the new classes too b:laugh

Moerten - Lost City

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

see, that's my concern, even if i spend a ton of money (irl or not) on my psy, he still wont be "op" pve-wise.

just made those builds:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=d861a86dd3011410

this psy does ~33.7k damage per sec, so 6.7k every 1/5 of a sec

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f0f39b264a867e80
as I understand it a regular hit deals dmg equal to the base p.attack,
so this bm (assuming a 5aps build) does ~7.6k dmg every 1/5 of a sec

(for both builds i assumed that they use the +30 attack level blessing. for the psy the spell was sage aqua blast, i calculated the sage aqua spirit +25% water damage)
note that the rest of the equipment of the bm would further boost his attack.
i didnt calculate the crits but clearly the bm, even without equipment has an advantage.

would this psy rock in pvp? well yes.
is that enough to balance it? no. some servers are pve anyway

Thx for this post. This is what I meant.

Ofc I understand some classes should have higher damage, other classes lower. Mages used to be called DD because of the high damage, tho it never worked in instances. Once again You guys dont understand I guess. PvP as I mentioned b4 I think its so to so balanced, but PvE is totally broken. Magic users are absolutely not needed in instances and even +10/12 weapon or a lot of -channeling equipments wont boost it. Ofc it will help in PvP, same as interval helps a lot in PvP, but why there must be sooooooo huuuuugggggeeeee difference in damage between magic users and int users?

Michael_Dark I prolly play this game longer than You, cuz since October 2008. I didnt hear abt You till 1 year ago when You appeared in Essence. Ofc in tiger even mage and other aoe users get advantadge on mobs, because they can use AoE, but also because they are mobs normal lvl and not bosses lvl "?". Same thing when You go frost - on mobs mages, psy will do a lot better than bms or sins (no matter if they have int gears or not), but on bosses You see the difference.

NightRage - Raging Tide

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Aww, butthurt kid.

TT does have minimum level limit for a SQUAD LEADER. I still cannot even open TT1-1 by myself, I have to get a 6x to open it for me. I can go to any TT I want, and join on just to help open, or join people even in 3-x runs... So there you go. Are you sure you are up to date on quests or you just whoracled your game? Sounds like it. Also, you need some anger management kid, I recommend it.

You are **** on a level that I can't even comprehend. I don't know if it's brain damage or willful stupidity.

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/13967

That is the quest I am talking about. Notice where it says you need to be 90+ and you need 5 90+ team members? Yeah. That's Old TT. The thing you've never been to. The thing you can't go to because you're too busy "playing the game."

That is why you'll never experience half of what this game has to offer, because believe it or not, the game doesn't end at level 49.

Now go ahead and make your response. Make sure you don't admit your stupid mistakes, and try to ridicule me for being PK'd or relying on "OP 59 skills" or something else stupid.

Kataguruma - Harshlands

NightRage - Raging Tide wrote: »

You are **** on a level that I can't even comprehend. I don't know if it's brain damage or willful stupidity.

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/13967

That is the quest I am talking about. Notice where it says you need to be 90+ and you need 5 90+ team members? Yeah. That's Old TT. The thing you've never been to. The thing you can't go to because you're too busy "playing the game."

That is why you'll never experience half of what this game has to offer, because believe it or not, the game doesn't end at level 49.

Now go ahead and make your response. Make sure you don't admit your stupid mistakes, and try to ridicule me for being PK'd or relying on "OP 59 skills" or something else stupid.

Im sick of people who take the game too seriously.... so thats why i write this before I give my opinion.

I don't know if you even read before you post your thread. I think you take it too seriously! Dude manage your anger please. Anyway what you wrote do not relate to the thread, I remember you its about 5 aps.

People say PvE is broken because of 5aps. No it is not broken,but unbalanced. And things should not be balanced. Wy a psy should do the same dmg per second tbat bm? If you want do same damage as a blade master, than choose a blade master. What is the matter? Why should PvE be equal for every character?

TheDutchman - Raging Tide

Coming soon to a theater near you: a movie starring Yulk as a great troll taking a stand against every PWI player. It's a story about a noob that lives in his own fantasy world, convinced that he is right about a lot of things that he didn't even experience himself yet. A brand new movie concept where the main character doesn't win for a change, but he fails epically.....

Don't miss this movie! It's the story of the age: REVENGE OF THE NOOBS

(Also available in 3D)


Sorry Yulk, i just couldn't resist....



On topic: Ban the people that want to nerf APS! :P

Yulk - Heavens Tear

NerdRage - Raging Tide wrote: »

You are **** on a level that I can't even comprehend. I don't know if it's brain damage or willful stupidity.

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/13967

That is the quest I am talking about. Notice where it says you need to be 90+ and you need 5 90+ team members? Yeah. That's Old TT. The thing you've never been to. The thing you can't go to because you're too busy "playing the game."

That is why you'll never experience half of what this game has to offer, because believe it or not, the game doesn't end at level 49.

Now go ahead and make your response. Make sure you don't admit your stupid mistakes, and try to ridicule me for being PK'd or relying on "OP 59 skills" or something else stupid.

I do not play the game with this character, he's an alt and forum main. Lol, nice try, cause I have a higher lvl than 49.

Mr.QQ I think you should start from scratch again since clearly BMs one shot you with Tiger maw b:chuckle Take a chill pill kid, I agree with...

V

Kataguruma - Harshlands wrote: »

Im sick of people who take the game too seriously.... so thats why i write this before I give my opinion.

I don't know if you even read before you post your thread. I think you take it too seriously! Dude manage your anger please. Anyway what you wrote do not relate to the thread, I remember you its about 5 aps.

^ -- this guy.

If you want to keep raging, I'll laugh at you for saying tard, funny you bring it to yourself.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

So when we going to talk about 5 aps again ? Cheers . . b:cute

NightRage - Raging Tide

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I do not play the game with this character, he's an alt and forum main. Lol, nice try, cause I have a higher lvl than 49.

Mr.QQ I think you should start from scratch again since clearly BMs one shot you with Tiger maw b:chuckle Take a chill pill kid, I agree with...

Congratulations on level 50.

BMs don't use Tiger Maw at my level. Or any level really besides level 1. It's a worthless skill, which you'd know if you ever got to a decent level.

NightRage - Raging Tide

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So when we going to talk about 5 aps again ? Cheers . . b:cute

When it becomes a problem.

Are you guys just jealous that 5 APS characters can farm instances faster than you? Or is it that you think 5 APS is worth anything in PvP on anything besides an assassin?

If it's PvE, grow up or roll your own 5 APS.

If it's PvP, get some skill and learn to kite. It's not that hard.

Yulk - Heavens Tear

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So when we going to talk about 5 aps again ? Cheers . . b:cute

Whoever relies on 5aps is a fail anyway, even bigger fails rely on 5aps toons to leech from. That is them, if they want to use genies too, that is their business, not mine :P. It will not change the fact 24/7 5aps/genie noobs are 100% stupid, like mr.QQnerdrage

Yulk - Heavens Tear

NightRage - Raging Tide wrote: »

Congratulations on level 50.

BMs don't use Tiger Maw at my level. Or any level really besides level 1. It's a worthless skill, which you'd know if you ever got to a decent level.

ROFL!! they one shot you with lvl1 tiger maw, ROFL!! No wonder why the game is dead to you.

Also I use lvl7 tiger maw > normal attack b:bye I own Perinial sharptooths and Wildstar wolves with it. Tiger maw is fine as it is.

NightRage - Raging Tide

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Whoever relies on 5aps is a fail anyway, even bigger fails rely on 5aps toons to leech from. That is them, if they want to use genies too, that is their business, not mine :P. It will not change the fact 24/7 5aps/genie noobs are 100% stupid, like mr.QQnerdrage

You're the one crying about everything in the game that isn't used at level 49.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/p122191/1278471805459.jpg

Nobody ever one shot me with Tiger Maw you're an idiot lmao.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

I am laughing seeing these page replies. b:laugh b:bye Why so serious ?
Be more calm and think on bigger scale of the topic effect.