Idea to help improve the APS problem.

Oscars_SOUL - Lost City

good 2 knew cleric isnt wanted in NV so now ill kick any INT wanabe future player from bh.
how that sounds if u aint prepered 2 play each class how they were before aps was then we prepared 2 get kick out of bh i run cos imma kick u out so fast from party u will we qq 2 ur mum b:laugh

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

What I'm hearing "I can't get squads. Nobody wants me. It's all the fault of those int ppl. Their pve damage output is much better."


I've played for a while... & You know what?... Even before the original ani packs & all the -int gear release... nobody ever wanted wizes for farming...


The current end game gear is quite expensive to get. Getting good int is expensive too, but pays of really well, if you don't sit on your bum after you acquired it.

Let's say u nerf the int. You'll be stuck wiht a bunch of ppl who already used it & are running around with their nirv+10 stuff. & the other half for whom it's going to take now a few years to farm that gear. Those casters now complaining they can't get squad will still be on the loosing end, as well as dragging down the others who don't have good gear yet.

Conavar - Heavens Tear

Lower APS and reduce Mag damage in PvP by 3/4 .. Seems a fair trade b:pleased

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

You think other people don't work for their gear? ego centric much?

Let's put the analogy with "work". You think it's fair/balanced if someone works just as hard but has 5 times less salary or returns on investments? I mean, with like the amount you spend on 5aps, there's NOWHERE CLOSE you can get that DPS with same amount of money on a ranged class -- even though BEFORE spending on gear, the difference between dps was CLOSER. Clearly not a fault of -interval rite? /sarcasm

I certainly didn't work for cube necklace, lunar rings, cape, etc right? And the returns? Don't make me laugh.

Or what about people who CS up a wiz? Then find out they have much lower DPS than a f2p sin with ****/average gear? Not surprisingly, such a wiz here said he'll roll a sin after getting pissed at it. If we compare "throw money at game, get X returns", clearly favors aps doesn't it.

Ok so are you just pissed that the fact that -int make loads of money and as a wiz, you can't and no one ever ever wants you for Nirv/TT3-3?

or

Is that 5.0 aps is mega OP in PvP?

If you seriously can't kill a BM as a wiz, you deserve to die to that -int BM. Wizzys are mega hitters, I've been 1-3 shotted by wizzys in TWs and PK.

As for the money, charge zen or learn2merch. Its not hard to make money at all as a merchant.


You can always farm TTs and Nirv the old school way, so what's stopping you?


I know lots of non-int ppl who make squads and run fast Nirv. Go ahead and call it leeching, but you know what? They are making money, they are not QQing, and over time, they will benefit loads. I know 2 wizzys in HT that pretty much farmed their Nirv weapon with their friends and look at them now, sporting that G15 Nirv weapon.

Set goals, take action and achieve.

Stop QQing, nuff said.

Oscars_SOUL - Lost City

fine LOl if u like being OP why dont we let veno get their OP bramble hood and barmbles back cos its NOT only pve that they use INt for.
let barb do demon rage on pvp 2 let sin get 2 do demon INt i dont mind if all the skills wish got nurfed for a reason are back. i bet INt wont we as fun then INt isnt only USED in pve its unbalanced in pvp as well sure ppl have found way 2 counter some of it but not completly. let all classes we OP then non will complain how does it sound a sleep that last 4 ever a plume shell that last 4 ever 2 we even

Innamorata - Harshlands

Seeing an archer with deicide 146 Str Req just ain't natural, rather a Gorenox and drop that ****, even if you get BS from others in Nirvana. APS is over-rated.

Oscars_SOUL - Lost City

even let barb have a 100% arma hit that wont miss and is what 6x the damage of its hp cos its so easy 2 break a game balancing game is harder then breaking it. shall we break or balance the GAMEb:angry cos i want all 2 we OP or non we OPb:pleased

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Innamorata - Harshlands wrote: »

Seeing an archer with deicide 146 Str Req just ain't natural, rather a Gorenox and drop that ****, even if you get BS from others in Nirvana. APS is over-rated.

APS is indeed overrated. I love seeing BMs, Archers, and Barbs sporting Deicide, but when you gear check them, they have almost no -int boosting gears at all.....

Mitachi - Dreamweaver

you know what, all physical classes except archers, always feel week till lvl 90, wizzie's, psy's, archer's always laughing at them cause they cant keep aggro, wizzy, psy and archer continues nuking, then dies calls them fails blah blah, and now that they actually can keep aggro now they're OP? reducing interval not fair, how bout we reduce pew pew classes pew pew power too? would be exactly the same in my eyes, leave the interval alone, it is fair for those who work for it, it aint gonna change. Get WITH it, Get OVER it or get OUT.b:bye

volst

What we need is short range aoe soulburn from bosses. Gonna be especially painful since bosses are apparently level 150. b:chuckle

Oscars_SOUL - Lost City

well i aint saying devs should take it away BUt let the nurfed skills get un nurfed back 2 what we used 2 call op. let caster class if 100% channeling do int cast let pilume shell alst 4 everas long as u have mp let venos bramble work in pvp i mean all this in pvp and ofc all classes pvp skill work as intended let all classes we OP. yay lets Break the gameb:pleased

tropaeolaceae

In my opinion: 5aps is not very overpowered in pvp, but it seems unbalanced in pve against bosses.

5aps is good because you can build chi fast, but you can only build chi when you have a target that will stand still for you. The damage per hit is low, however. And getting a target to stand still can be tricky.

To totally balance it, we should have something analogous to defense charms (occasional use things for when you just need a slight edge) which are designed to counter the small rapid attacks.

The overpowered aspect of 5aps is that they can build chi like nothing else. Even assassins with their overpowered chi building skills can build chi only a fraction of that rate (unless, of course, they have 3.33+aps themselves). And, on bosses that do not take steps to counter 5aps, this gives melee classes a huge damage boost and a moderate healing boost. (And, stacked with the assassin healing buff, this becomes a huge healing boost.)

Meanwhile, for pvp, you can mostly avoid triple sparked 5aps. Triple spark means that you are standing still for 3 seconds, and standing still in PvP tends to make you ineffective. (For example: I triple spark and then you holy path and fly. And each class has its own tricks to use, instead of or in addition to your holy path.)

Oscars_SOUL - Lost City

i did say we have come with a somewhat counter mesure 2 it well mostly for a caster but a barb is scred if he aint aps wish i aint on me 99 barb so u tell me go aps then wtf we have skill 4.NO if u wana keep aps then let all so called OP skill we used in pvp as well no matter how unbalanced it would we cos aps is inbalaced in itself so rest of player need 2 make a counter JUST COS U WANA KEEP URSELF op NO LET BREAK THE GAME SHALL WE LET ALL SKILL WORK AS INT DOES CASTER WILL INT CAST BARB 1 HIT WONDER WITH ARMA 100% VENOS BRAMBLE. let break the game shall web:pleased

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ok so are you just pissed that the fact that -int make loads of money and as a wiz, you can't and no one ever ever wants you for Nirv/TT3-3?

or

Is that 5.0 aps is mega OP in PvP?

I'm only "pissed" (or rather, complain about it) because people keep using that **** argument: that somehow, they deserve the DPS because they "worked for it". It is like they think they are special for that.

I didn't say "5aps" (when I mean -interval, cause it still hurts without 5aps) is mega OP in PvP... I just said that in rare cases it is OP, such that the only escape are immunity skills. But obviously nowhere near the "mega OP" it is in PvE.

Immunity skills are already kind of OP, and basically a ranged class can kill someone even if that someone does infinite damage, or has a GM fist, or something. Just because of the gameplay. This is a known fact. This does not mean that certain someone has balanced damage.

You see, MMOs balance this out around skills. The usual antistuns, sprints, stuns, rushes, stuff like that. However, this is the first game that people have said that such insane DPS is needed for melee because, well, they can still get owned by ranged.

Hello? If you have 1 HP and infinite damage that doesn't make the damage balanced even if you can't kill anyone.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

What I'm hearing "I can't get squads. Nobody wants me. It's all the fault of those int ppl. Their pve damage output is much better."

Nah, it's just some people making this fest personal. It's quite funny to see people all assume things about me or other complainers that we only complain because we can't do it.

Sorry to burst bubbles here but I'm for balancing games in general, even if it's inconvenient for me.

Want an example? If some 5aps char would give me all drops just because, meaning I get stuff from it, I would still want it nerfed. I don't give a **** about the results, but I do care about balance. I used to design game mechanics and give suggestions in mods.

Grow up and stop assuming anyone here takes things personal.

tropaeolaceae wrote: »

In my opinion: 5aps is not very overpowered in pvp

I agree, but it still is overpowered. Not "very" of course, and it is used rarely only when target stays still (i.e stunned/rooted/whatever).

But fixing -interval (not 5aps, or the ppl who like to pick on demon sparking will jump on me) consequently will fix PvP a bit (not much, but still better) and fix PvE massively. Just because something is not broken in PvP as it is in PvE (it's much less significant) doesn't mean that it is fine.

Mitachi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you know what, all physical classes except archers, always feel week till lvl 90, wizzie's, psy's, archer's always laughing at them cause they cant keep aggro, wizzy, psy and archer continues nuking, then dies calls them fails blah blah, and now that they actually can keep aggro now they're OP? reducing interval not fair, how bout we reduce pew pew classes pew pew power too? would be exactly the same in my eyes, leave the interval alone, it is fair for those who work for it, it aint gonna change. Get WITH it, Get OVER it or get OUT.b:bye

You do realize wizards, for example, are one of the weakest classes pre-endgame right?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

I would say 3.33/4.00 unsparked dagger aps is pretty OP for sins since they get first hit as opposed to BMs who don't.

Here is what 3.33 unsparked looks like in pvp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTivlkFqalY

Admante - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would say 3.33/4.00 unsparked dagger aps is pretty OP for sins since they get first hit as opposed to BMs who don't.

Here is what 3.33 unsparked looks like in pvp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTivlkFqalY

That makes me want to rage against sins so badly, nevermind int.

Conavar - Heavens Tear

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would say 3.33/4.00 unsparked dagger aps is pretty OP for sins since they get first hit as opposed to BMs who don't.

Here is what 3.33 unsparked looks like in pvp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTivlkFqalY

Kinda less about the APS and more about how broken Stealth is in PvP atm ... (until new classes ofc )

Elviron - Dreamweaver

This so called APS problem is not the biggest imbalance from my point of view. It might give an edge to some players at lvl100 but thats about it.

This godly aps is not achievable for a regular player unless they put heck loads of effort into acquiring the gear.

So the point what many are getting to is that, just because 100 players are able to use it to do so called "OPed" stuff, doesnt mean everyone can.

If you look at all the things present there are so many things that are not in perfect balance.

1.) In most games a wizard/mage is a rather squishy class even in endgame, but here they have shields which boosts a lot of their defense? Why is that? I would consider this an imbalance since those shields give an unfair advantage to the hardest hitting class ever.

2.) Evasion is basically worthless here since their mechanics make no sense whatsoever. Did you ever question that? I got hit almost 100% of the time while activating my skill which gives a 1000% evasion.

3.) A veno's herc can solo almost all the bosses in PWI (save for ones which debuffs, etc)...is this not a sign of imbalance since they basically make tanks/squads not even needed most of the times? A single 5 aps char couldnt do it as easily/efficiently as a veno even after investing millions on their gear at 100+. A class is able to effectively be a loner in a MMO without much difficulty, yet this is fine with you.

4.) A pet does not suffer the pvp damage or [?] mob reduction making their damage almost godly till others get far better gear. Is this not an imabalance?

5.) A BM/Sin can use bows without their skills or spark+switch, yet there is an issue with archers using fists/daggers. Why is that? I dont see anything wrong in an archer holding daggers...heck my grandmother can hold one.

6.) A Sin can go stealth and the only counter to it is another sin or having powders from a city which only a faction controlling that city can make. Is this not an imbalance?

7.) People can literally buy their way through this game. IS THIS NOT AN IMBALANCE?

8.) There are 8 different classes with different skills, capabilities and uses. IS THIS NOT AN IMBALANCE IN ITSELF? This is overlooked as variety in game play styles but in essence this already decided what youre capable of and what youre not.


So please, dont tell that you care about overall balance since youre obviously overlooking all the above mentioned here and only fixating on the one thing that is directly affecting your efficiency in farming or pvp performance cos youre unable to comprehend how to counter it.

APS could be an imbalance but its the least of all prior to 100 and even afterwards.

*Tries to use Barrage of Arrows in FC using fists after reaching 5 aps*
Dammit man, you cant AoE mobs with fists b:angry

Yamiino - Heavens Tear

Yawn... if they dont nerf aps, then imma have to join the team b:chuckle oracles here i come b:victory ooo a pk team of sin + cleric would be owneage

Borsuc - Raging Tide

I wonder why Expel or other such immunity skills (as in the video) = the only solution against the "aps problem"? Could it be that, gasp, the DPS is too high? b:question It's not even about bypassing charms!

Now to reply to Elviron, why do people think that ONE FIX will fix ALL imbalance? Just because this thread is about the aps problem, doesn't mean that it is the ONLY imbalance in the game.

However it DOES mean that the thread's point is about "the aps". If you want to discuss other imbalances, go to a proper thread for them.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1.) In most games a wizard/mage is a rather squishy class even in endgame, but here they have shields which boosts a lot of their defense? Why is that? I would consider this an imbalance since those shields give an unfair advantage to the hardest hitting class ever.

We don't hit high because we are squishy. We hit high because we are slow as hell in channeling. (squishy = HP btw not def but w/e). We are squishy because we are a ranged class, like all the others.

Now why do we have the defense buff? Because we also lack good control skills. Some games have mages with almost instant and spammable AOE stuns. This one doesn't. That's why we get the shield.

Look at psychics. They don't have the shield, but they have a super fast AOE stun with great damage. And a lot of those soul stuff that controls your attacker.

Seriously people try analyze mechanics a bit.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

2.) Evasion is basically worthless here since their mechanics make no sense whatsoever. Did you ever question that? I got hit almost 100% of the time while activating my skill which gives a 1000% evasion.

I agree, that is a different topic, and evasion is underpowered at endgame. It simply doesn't scale.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

3.) A veno's herc can solo almost all the bosses in PWI (save for ones which debuffs, etc)...is this not a sign of imbalance since they basically make tanks/squads not even needed most of the times? A single 5 aps char couldnt do it as easily/efficiently as a veno even after investing millions on their gear at 100+. A class is able to effectively be a loner in a MMO without much difficulty, yet this is fine with you.

It's not much hercs but veno heals which are too overpowered. And dude, that is for a different topic. Yes it is imbalanced. Are you satisfied? :P

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

4.) A pet does not suffer the pvp damage or [?] mob reduction making their damage almost godly till others get far better gear. Is this not an imabalance?

It is imbalanced, but for a different topic.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

5.) A BM/Sin can use bows without their skills or spark+switch, yet there is an issue with archers using fists/daggers. Why is that? I dont see anything wrong in an archer holding daggers...heck my grandmother can hold one.

I don't see anything wrong either -- but you wouldn't consider it if the "aps problem" didn't exist ijs.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

6.) A Sin can go stealth and the only counter to it is another sin or having powders from a city which only a faction controlling that city can make. Is this not an imbalance?

Everyone knows stealth in this game is OP, because there's no counter to it.

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

7.) People can literally buy their way through this game. IS THIS NOT AN IMBALANCE?

That's a topic about the cash shop. But for two people who buy the same amount, and put on different classes, then the one who is superior -> imbalanced.

Not sure what your 8th question means to be honest

Darcwolf - Lost City

5.0 is just broken in general, it needs to be nerfed badly, I have 16.7k hp standing, with 2 pieces of nirvana, and 2 pieces of 99. A 5.0 BM can literally stun lock me and drop me in under 5 seconds with 3 spark even with a charm on, and there is NOTHING that I can do to stop it, since anti stun pots don't work again occult ice.

SilverCleric - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's not much hercs but veno heals which are too overpowered. And dude, that is for a different topic. Yes it is imbalanced. Are you satisfied? :P

So you are saying nerf the venos heals just to make it harder just to be a veno?

That kind of makes no scene because they are made for solo and nerfing their heals on pets is just going to remove the purpose of venos being a solo class,.

Nerfing the venos even more than they are now is just going to make them have no purpose at all.

Lastly saying everything is overpowered all because you think that wizards are to weak and can't Pk or do anything in game or what ever your reason is, is not going to change anything. Ether learn how beat assassins and BM's with 5aps or just rerole one (or the quit even tho this is not a option to you).

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would say 3.33/4.00 unsparked dagger aps is pretty OP for sins since they get first hit as opposed to BMs who don't.

Here is what 3.33 unsparked looks like in pvp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTivlkFqalY

b:sad Poor Link

Elviron - Dreamweaver

@Borsuc
My point of making all that was not to discuss them but to show that there are so many imbalances which are there because thats how its been made. APS is also one of them. Youre talking like all aps gears falls in our laps and every BM/Archer/Barb/Sin is a 5 APS one and somehow magic classes are like not needed at all.

All magic classes and non-aps players (cos you still do have archers/bms/barbs/etc who play without the aps gear) can still do whatever instances are available in the game but perhaps not as fast as a full 5 aps squad...thats about it.

If something this basic doesnt get thru your head, then I dont see any reason to explain further.

As analogy, I used to have a character (ofc in another game) which had more HP and Defense than a barb, would flatten any archer/wizard/squishy in like 3 hits with subpar gears. Was that OP? Nope. Why? because if multiple squishies ganged up on me, I would still die. My char could solo hunt in most dungeons without even needing a healer. Was that OP? Nope. Why? Because I would go in with a squad to do it faster.

The same applies here. Can a single 5.0 APS char solo TW? Nope. Are wizards and other magic classes needed? Very much .. YES. If you take farming instances...can a single 5.0 APS char do it? Probably yes. But much faster with a squad.


@SilverCleric
I dont know about Borsuc, but IMO having a class which has the ability to solo like a veno does in a MMO is as much of an imbalance as what 5.0 aps does.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

If you take farming instances...can a single 5.0 APS char do it?

This is smth I really hate... Seems a lot assume if you have 5 aps, you can solo most dungeons...

Yeah... have fun soloing that nirvana.... oh wait... you need 5 more to open...

Oh well, but surely you can go solo that 3-3... Oh right....


The chars that do solo are the ones that are spouting +10 or higher full nirv gear... But that's another story...

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

The solution to the APS "problem" is simple. Just uninstall. Or at the very least, don't take PWI so seriously. There are far better MMOs out there, both in gameplay balances and in technical reliability.

Some even only require a 1 time purchase, and aren't built around the concept of "he who has the highest spending limit, wins."

SilverCleric - Lost City

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@SilverCleric
I dont know about Borsuc, but IMO having a class which has the ability to solo like a veno does in a MMO is as much of an imbalance as what 5.0 aps does.

So you are saying get rid of the soloing abilities of a class that is design to solo?

Not a good idea, besides all thats going to lead to is more flames and QQ, so I think killing a class is not really a big deal. >_>

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

SilverCleric - Lost City wrote: »

So you are saying get rid of the soloing abilities of a class that is design to solo?

Not a good idea, besides all thats going to lead to is more flames and QQ, so I think killing a class is not really a big deal. >_>

Venos weren't "designed" to solo anything. It came as an accident when Hercs were brought into the picture. And ofc, this being PW, nothing was fixed to rebalance it.

SilverCleric - Lost City

Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Venos weren't "designed" to solo anything. It came as an accident when Hercs were brought into the picture. And ofc, this being PW, nothing was fixed to rebalance it.

I don't see much imbalance in venos except for the bugged flesh ream skill but like what you said "being PW nothing was fixed" so there is no purpose to complain about it, and besides venos have been nerfed enough already and a genie skill stole their main job so, trying to overkill venos with nerfs is a bad idea and will cause mass QQ.

Tsubakey - Heavens Tear

or just class lock weapons.... a archer/barb has no buisiness wearing fists in the first damn place.

this way the only classes that will be able to acheive 5 aps is fist BMs and dagger sins. everyone else will be ****ed up the ***.