Idea to help improve the APS problem.

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  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »
    You forget titans buff = 30% more p.attack & Devour debuff = 50% less p.def. Demon/sage versions give more but even lvl 10 ones I took the stats from do affect quite a bit. Actually with those barb would be better bet than last 5aps, not gonna start counting at whichpoint it`s better to have barb than another 5aps.

    Just note that claw barbs can easily replace a normal barb in Nirv, TT etc etc as stated above.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    You actually strengthen what I said. You actually further imply that I am right (about being useless, as a class, in most instances).

    Too bad in RL I can't compare since i don't know of any better RL out there... not that I had a choice to begin with. And you know, talking to God is sort of unreachable, unless you're one of those crazy monks or priests.

    Cause the God of this game ought to fix a few of the "laws of physics" ijs.

    /facepalm

    *cata barb is missing* "OMG EMERGENCY WE LACK CATA BARB FIND A REPLACEMENT ASAP" (not that there's many to begin with)
    *some random mage is missing* "meh big deal we can still do this, just replace him with another DD aite?"

    Oh and guess what, we can pull off those ultis because of others staying in front of us. I mean eh, we are so formidable that we depend on others to be in the frontlines.

    How about you make others depend on us in instances first?

    Because missing a cat barb implies that one of your FEW cat barbs are missing, that's why it's a big deal. You only need a FEW cat barbs, each dealing like 150k a hit to a crystal or tower, but you need plenty of good DDs. One cat barb gone means you can't pull a cat, it's like 1/4 of the DDs being missing. You are completely **** if you want wizards to be able to pull off ults without any support whatsoever. It's a ****ing TW, a team game, where people work together. You are here complaining about being dependent on teammates in a TW.

    Are BMs not dependent on teammates? Do they not need archers to deal with enemy robes? Do archers not need BMs to counterstun enemy heavies, or wizards to kill heavies? Do barbs not need everyone backing them up so they can do what they do? Again, I don't think you TW at all.
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  • jemima
    jemima Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Because missing a cat barb implies that one of your FEW cat barbs are missing, that's why it's a big deal. You only need a FEW cat barbs, each dealing like 150k a hit to a crystal or tower, but you need plenty of good DDs. One cat barb gone means you can't pull a cat, it's like 1/4 of the DDs being missing. You are completely **** if you want wizards to be able to pull off ults without any support whatsoever. It's a ****ing TW, a team game, where people work together. You are here complaining about being dependent on teammates in a TW.

    Are BMs not dependent on teammates? Do they not need archers to deal with enemy robes? Do archers not need BMs to counterstun enemy heavies, or wizards to kill heavies? Do barbs not need everyone backing them up so they can do what they do? Again, I don't think you TW at all.

    Awesome.
    So now that we've established that TW is balanced between classes, that means we can go back to the original topic, or instances not being balanced between classes, right?

    Ah, who am I kidding.
  • Yamiino - Heavens Tear
    Yamiino - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,031 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    jemima wrote: »
    Awesome.
    So now that we've established that TW is balanced between classes, that means we can go back to the original topic, or instances not being balanced between classes, right?

    Ah, who am I kidding.

    Lol, you're right, I missed what page this thread became a TW QQ thread...

    Anyhow~ 5 aps... overrated... and everyone using the same gear over and over no variations... - you: "but..." - me: "SHUT UP JUST!!! SHUT!!! UP!!! ... ty" -

    Don't you think devs can simply nerf it like they've done with several things?, its just a matter of time until they realize the game is 70% bms/sins getting 5 aps.

    Just a note: Without clerics you're doomed! Something you might want to consider before typing your thoughts in here related to "bms / sins rule the world". As well as being so arrogant and cocky about something that is way overrated and thinking it's original and "PRO", rofl when it's not.

    I'm sure a Psy can kill a 5 aps bm, just watch the psy get the phy immune buff and you're doomed. So if you so claim you're "PRO" on PvP you should know there are classes that will beat your little pixeled butt off.

    I have killed BMs with 5 aps without even healing my self yet they still use apoth to beat other classes b:chuckle how pro is that. That way anyone can win :P so **** :]

    b:bye
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  • prof
    prof Posts: 1,111
    edited November 2010
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    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    ever heard of sage slipsteam?

    sage assassin? where?

    but besides that, it's a 30% chance of success. 30% isn't the greatest of odds(to put into perspective: claw users believe the 30% chance hp debuff is actually 10%). so you have a skill, only a cultivation that I believe most don't even consider(because even if you did, demon spark is still better), that wont even work 70% of the time. b:bye
  • Kreuz - Raging Tide
    Kreuz - Raging Tide Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Yamiino - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lol, you're right, I missed what page this thread became a TW QQ thread...

    Anyhow~ 5 aps... overrated... and everyone using the same gear over and over no variations... - you: "but..." - me: "SHUT UP JUST!!! SHUT!!! UP!!! ... ty" -

    Don't you think devs can simply nerf it like they've done with several things?, its just a matter of time until they realize the game is 70% bms/sins getting 5 aps.

    Just a note: Without clerics you're doomed! Something you might want to consider before typing your thoughts in here related to "bms / sins rule the world". As well as being so arrogant and cocky about something that is way overrated and thinking it's original and "PRO", rofl when it's not.

    I'm sure a Psy can kill a 5 aps bm, just watch the psy get the phy immune buff and you're doomed. So if you so claim you're "PRO" on PvP you should know there are classes that will beat your little pixeled butt off.

    I have killed BMs with 5 aps without even healing my self yet they still use apoth to beat other classes b:chuckle how pro is that. That way anyone can win :P so **** :]

    b:bye


    So you are saying that 5aps isn't overpowerd?
  • Hellsflame - Lost City
    Hellsflame - Lost City Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Alphae!!!!!!
  • Rawthorne - Heavens Tear
    Rawthorne - Heavens Tear Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »
    You forget titans buff = 30% more p.attack & Devour debuff = 50% less p.def. Demon/sage versions give more but even lvl 10 ones I took the stats from do affect quite a bit. Actually with those barb would be better bet than last 5aps, not gonna start counting at whichpoint it`s better to have barb than another 5aps.

    Hmm or do what the wife (4.0 sage bm) and I do...we bought sage strength and hp buff for her brother's barb and we buff everyone before we enter nirvana and then I constantly debuff (40% pdef and nonstop extreme poison/tangling mire). Too many fail barbs thought they were pro -int w/ 1 piece of -int gear or wanted to dd in human form and never devour/rarely rebuff when needed for our taste so we bought those skills. One barb I used to nirvana nonstop with got the sage hp buff 5x+ via tokens and kept selling it; saying it was worthlessb:angry. If worse comes to worse I log out/she brings barb back in to rebuff squad and then I log back in. Barbs have become buff bitxxxx unless you are 3.0aps+ or have nirvana +10 or higher axes in nirvana. Depending on squad makeup/op of people's gear cleric's aren't even necessary....

    So yeah with using the barb we give the squad 50% more attack and a 1 hour sage barb buff before entering and we always try and bring at least 1 sin with us to make it easier for me to spam debuffs (I have a genie designed just for nirvana) while keeping everyone alive. Barb devour = 50% (lasts 10/15 secs w/ a chi cost involved so difficult to keep on perpetually) and my debuff = 40% (I'm sage so lasts 25 seconds and I have good pdef/hp so I can deal w/ lowering my pdef) but I KEEP it on bosses 99% of the time whereas most barbs it seems around 35-65% of the time. So we throw another -int dd and we roll just fine without a barb nowadays.
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  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Because missing a cat barb implies that one of your FEW cat barbs are missing, that's why it's a big deal. You only need a FEW cat barbs, each dealing like 150k a hit to a crystal or tower, but you need plenty of good DDs. One cat barb gone means you can't pull a cat, it's like 1/4 of the DDs being missing. You are completely **** if you want wizards to be able to pull off ults without any support whatsoever. It's a ****ing TW, a team game, where people work together. You are here complaining about being dependent on teammates in a TW.

    Are BMs not dependent on teammates? Do they not need archers to deal with enemy robes? Do archers not need BMs to counterstun enemy heavies, or wizards to kill heavies? Do barbs not need everyone backing them up so they can do what they do? Again, I don't think you TW at all.
    He doesn't, all of our TWs are over in under 20 minutes.
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  • Yamiino - Heavens Tear
    Yamiino - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,031 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Kreuz - Raging Tide wrote: »
    So you are saying that 5aps isn't overpowerd?

    Overpowered for PvE, bosses in FF, 3-3, etc. are not meant to die in less than 1 min with a bm squad... I don't complain about it, as I said in other thread, I love interval, makes my cleric life easier lol... but it is not meant to be like that whatsoever :P, on the other hand... for PvP? overpowered? not really.

    BM has many downsides :P apoth more and you're safe against BMs and any other class realy b:chuckle, as of me, taking a 20 sec anti-stun is enough to kill a bm / sin. The only way to kill a cleric is keeping 'em stunned :P so yep its easy :]

    Not to mention assassin's only protection is 1 hit and stealth lol, 2 hits with a high elemental skill and... plop!, down. Unless it is an AA sin... which would die with a swing of a cleric's sword :)

    b:bye
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  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Because missing a cat barb implies that one of your FEW cat barbs are missing, that's why it's a big deal. You only need a FEW cat barbs, each dealing like 150k a hit to a crystal or tower, but you need plenty of good DDs. One cat barb gone means you can't pull a cat, it's like 1/4 of the DDs being missing. You are completely **** if you want wizards to be able to pull off ults without any support whatsoever. It's a ****ing TW, a team game, where people work together. You are here complaining about being dependent on teammates in a TW.

    Are BMs not dependent on teammates? Do they not need archers to deal with enemy robes? Do archers not need BMs to counterstun enemy heavies, or wizards to kill heavies? Do barbs not need everyone backing them up so they can do what they do? Again, I don't think you TW at all.
    You don't get it.

    You said wizards are good at TW. No, we aren't "good" because we can't do it alone. By "good" I mean something that can easily replace anyone else, and thus doesn't need anyone else if it had more of him/her. EVERYONE in TW has a role, it's not just about who kills best.

    You are saying this balances out that we DO NOT HAVE A ROLE in instances at all?

    If you want "balance" here, where only 5aps ppl CAN go to nirvana and DO NOT NEED others, then make TW where wizards can solo TWs with other magic classes only. So, everyone has a role in TW, but some also have roles in instances??? That is balanced?

    Wizards are not bad in TW, they are epic, BUT they don't pull their stuff alone. UNLIKE in instances with the "other" classes... different level of epicness.

    At least, I thought this was your argument.
    Yamiino - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lol, you're right, I missed what page this thread became a TW QQ thread...
    Every single time it must turn into that because people who want to support 5aps just CANNOT FIND arguments about it and then resort to a whole different topic.

    At least all the complaints are put into topics about -interval -- again, it's not my fault that so many pop up.
  • DaKillanator - Raging Tide
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide Posts: 2,965 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Again, I don't think you TW at all.

    lolwut I didnt know Sanc had TW's that are more than 5min
  • Ninja_Dagger - Dreamweaver
    Ninja_Dagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    *switches to main weapon*
    *sparks*
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    WIN b:laugh
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  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    You don't get it.

    You said wizards are good at TW. No, we aren't "good" because we can't do it alone. By "good" I mean something that can easily replace anyone else, and thus doesn't need anyone else if it had more of him/her. EVERYONE in TW has a role, it's not just about who kills best.

    You are saying this balances out that we DO NOT HAVE A ROLE in instances at all?

    If you want "balance" here, where only 5aps ppl CAN go to nirvana and DO NOT NEED others, then make TW where wizards can solo TWs with other magic classes only. So, everyone has a role in TW, but some also have roles in instances??? That is balanced?

    Wizards are not bad in TW, they are epic, BUT they don't pull their stuff alone. UNLIKE in instances with the "other" classes... different level of epicness.

    At least, I thought this was your argument.

    I think your problem is that you think there should be some kind of balance. You see, this is not your average Western MMO where balance is everything. Here, unbalance is the name of the game. It is here, it should be here and it has to be here. Without that, I don't think PW would have pulled that much profits without people rolling sins, Rank 8 wizards, herc/nix venos, 5 aps chars in general etc.

    I don't criticize anyone for complaining/discussing about OP things but... OP things are here to stay and that's the first thing to realize here as the whole game is based on it.
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  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    You don't get it.

    You said wizards are good at TW. No, we aren't "good" because we can't do it alone. By "good" I mean something that can easily replace anyone else, and thus doesn't need anyone else if it had more of him/her. EVERYONE in TW has a role, it's not just about who kills best.

    You are saying this balances out that we DO NOT HAVE A ROLE in instances at all?

    Actually YOU don't get it.

    I know plenty of mages that have no trouble finding or creating farming parties. Just because you're either so horrible nobody wants to take you, you can't make friends to actually create a farming party, or you're just so much of an **** nobody wants to have anything to do with you.
    If you want "balance" here, where only 5aps ppl CAN go to nirvana and DO NOT NEED others, then make TW where wizards can solo TWs with other magic classes only. So, everyone has a role in TW, but some also have roles in instances??? That is balanced?

    lol. Only 5aps people can go to Nirvana? You mean, nobody is willing to personally take you with them. Umm... that has more to do with YOU than wizards. I don't know how many casters here have farmed Nirvana armor or weapons. I guess you just really suck that bad.
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  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    You need to learn some comprehension skills. By "can" I mean that THEY CAN DO IT WITHOUT A WIZARD.

    Like, we CANNOT WIN TW without them, but THEY CAN "WIN" NIRVANA WITHOUT US.

    Is that more clear?

    And sorry but being "taken" to nirvana does not constitute actually being useful OR a choice that they consider to take for usefulness, rather than just "extra spot" or "no one better was available". If it didn't require keys, you could take lvl1 char, but would you claim a level 1 char can "do" nirvana and feel useful in? Or that it's balanced compared to the rest of the squad? b:chuckle (if you want realistic, just replace lvl1 char with lvl100 with no gear at all, not even NPC gear)

    And Kupuntu, I realize what you're saying, but I didn't bring this "TW balances it out" argument, I actually disputed it.
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    And Kupuntu, I realize what you're saying, but I didn't bring this "TW balances it out" argument, I actually disputed it.

    It doesn't matter as I didn't mention TW. This game has no balance, and there is a reason for it. Of course it's nice to think "what if things were balanced" but that's about it.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
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  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It doesn't matter as I didn't mention TW. This game has no balance, and there is a reason for it. Of course it's nice to think "what if things were balanced" but that's about it.
    Yeah but I wasn't arguing with you about it :P
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Yeah but I wasn't arguing with you about it :P

    Good. If everyone realised that we wouldn't have this thread to begin with. Or any other balance-related QQ threads that are surprisingly entertaining to read though. b:chuckle
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
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  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It doesn't matter as I didn't mention TW. This game has no balance, and there is a reason for it. Of course it's nice to think "what if things were balanced" but that's about it.

    well, it's one thing to say that the game isunbalanced and dont expect it to change and quite different to say that everything is balanced cause wizzies(/psys?) can kill ppl in TW.
    besides, not everyone TWs/pvps, the majority of ppl are in pve servers and dont TW

    life is unfair, the game is unfair; i dont really expect much and i'm happy since it's f2p
    but not admitting the imbalance is kinda annoying


    (not directed to you)
  • Furries - Dreamweaver
    Furries - Dreamweaver Posts: 966 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    personaly im fine with have the max APS lowered below 5 APS.

    and i have a lvl - interval 60 fist bm

    im never ganna get my afford to bring my bm to 5 APS anyways, would also not force me to go demon
    Killing level 80's with a lvl 60 is a lot more fun than killing level 90's with a level 100.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    The game is unbalanced. I can't 1-1 melee as good as someone with Deicide Claws, and they can't AoE like I can. -What's the big deal?
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  • Susylu - Heavens Tear
    Susylu - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,786 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Furries - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    personaly im fine with have the max APS lowered below 5 APS.

    and i have a lvl - interval 60 fist bm

    im never ganna get my afford to bring my bm to 5 APS anyways, would also not force me to go demon

    I think that what you said is kind of unfair and states the mindset of several players who also wouldn't mind lowering the aps max.

    "Since I won't get it, it doesn't matter. Whoever already worked to get it can go QQ because I'm sick of QQing I can't have/benefit from it."
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  • Evanera - Heavens Tear
    Evanera - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,423 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Nerfing APS now would **** way too many people off and would be generally unfair. Unless the current 5.0 people would be compensated for their loss, I don't see it being any bit fair.
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  • Aesthor - Heavens Tear
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    It's all fine and great that there are 9001 of these QQ 5aps threads, but how many of you actually stopped to think that since it was implemented in the first place, if it gets taken out you're ****ing over the people who sank hundreds of millions of coin into it in the first place. Yea, 5 aps screwed over some poor people who can't be assed to work for their gear (and you can get it being f2p, so it's too lazy to, not can't), but that doesn't give you the right to suggest the devs **** over 5 aps people who did work for it.

    Personally, I don't like 5 aps. Yes, I have it, but I prefer it didn't unbalance PvE as much as it does now. However, now that so many people already bought it, I don't see it being fair either to remove it.

    And to those of you who insist on QQing about it, were you around back when there were 9001 QQ threads about nix bleed? Was anything done to fix that, after so many venos bought it? Because the suggestions were reasonable: fix bleed to factor in player level instead of doing full damage regardless. Yea, no.
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  • Aelo - Harshlands
    Aelo - Harshlands Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    5 aps user: nothing is wrong with 5aps
    non 5 aps user: it needs to be nerfed cause I can't get it easily
    developer: ....................
    cash shop operator: .........................................
    5 aps user: if they nerf it I'll rage quit
    non 5 aps user: if you quit can I get your gear free?
    5 aps user: heck no
    developer:.....................
    cash shop operator: $$$$$$$$.......................
    5 aps user: look I know its unbalanced but why QQ after all, you can get it too
    non 5 aps user: right so its unbalanced, well I prefer a balanced game
    5 aps user: truthfully even if they nerfed it I still pwn you cause my gears are +12
    non 5 aps user: .......................
    developer: ......... lol .............
    anouncing new classes
    cash shop operator: heh, another 6-8 months of more $$$$$
    5 aps user: a new class to get to 5 aps
    non 5 aps user: awesome new content
    GM: .....patch complete go play.........

    a few months later....

    5 aps user: 101 5aps (insert new class) lfs Nirvana (or new dungeon if any)
    non 5 aps user: sigh (feels sad cause I'll never get to do a fast Nirvana run)
    developer: (big smile)............
    cash shop operator: $$$$$$$$$$$$
    GM: packs on sale
    cash shop operator: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
    5 aps user: sweet
    non 5 aps user: I give up, I wish I was rich
    5 aps user: lol play harder......im pro
  • DaKillanator - Raging Tide
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide Posts: 2,965 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Aelo - Harshlands wrote: »
    horribad attempt at dialogue

    Su, leik, wizhards shud git fife aye pee ess?
  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Yea, 5.0 aps is just a QQ jealously topic at this point.


    I worked about 3 months getting 4.0 aps, need another 2 weeks before I can make 5.0, unless I charge zen..........ewwww....


    Changing it would be funny, can't wait for those wizzys and psys to laugh at me if they ever do nerf it. b:bye
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  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    Aelo - Harshlands wrote: »
    non 5 aps user: it needs to be nerfed cause I can't get it easily
    /facepalm

    There are a lot of people, including me, who want it nerfed because it is OP, not because we don't have it. I could've easily have a lot of aps (not 5 yet though) if I spend the same amount of coins on a BM. EVEN IF I DID, I would've said it's OP since it breaks all other weapon paths for normal attacking. Not to mention, compared to other classes.

    There's some of us who are more mature than just wanting "the best" and to pwn -- for some, we care about the actual balance in a game.

    Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Yea, 5.0 aps is just a QQ jealously topic at this point.


    I worked about 3 months getting 4.0 aps, need another 2 weeks before I can make 5.0, unless I charge zen..........ewwww....


    Changing it would be funny, can't wait for those wizzys and psys to laugh at me if they ever do nerf it. b:bye
    You think other people don't work for their gear? ego centric much?

    Let's put the analogy with "work". You think it's fair/balanced if someone works just as hard but has 5 times less salary or returns on investments? I mean, with like the amount you spend on 5aps, there's NOWHERE CLOSE you can get that DPS with same amount of money on a ranged class -- even though BEFORE spending on gear, the difference between dps was CLOSER. Clearly not a fault of -interval rite? /sarcasm

    I certainly didn't work for cube necklace, lunar rings, cape, etc right? And the returns? Don't make me laugh.

    Or what about people who CS up a wiz? Then find out they have much lower DPS than a f2p sin with ****/average gear? Not surprisingly, such a wiz here said he'll roll a sin after getting pissed at it. If we compare "throw money at game, get X returns", clearly favors aps doesn't it.
  • Aelo - Harshlands
    Aelo - Harshlands Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited November 2010
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    DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Su, leik, wizhards shud git fife aye pee ess?

    Bad dialogue perhaps but there is humor and truth hidden in it.

    As for the post above clearly you didn't get it either. I am for nerfing of the -intv stat. In fact I already suggested an appropriate nerf ala

    -0.05 down to -0.02
    -0.1 down to -0.05

    So assuming cape, bracers, tome, fist/claw, legs what was -0.4 intv would now be -0.19

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