I am going to say my piece and be done...

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is, and I repeat again, nothing, that Frankie can do about the crappy and shoddy development of the game, and in most cases, the best response is no response, lest he put his foot in his mouth. The only way to speed it up is for the community to stop spending money on the game. Frankie is an easy and convenient target for your assertions, but again, pissing on the wrong fire hydrant.

continuing your analogy

his job seems to be a decoy fire hydrant, hired to get pissed on

direct the stream in one way or another

and make sure that if someone pees in the wrong place, it gets mopped up

sounds like a pretty **** job to me.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »

@ Long Then again, even under x2 drop GBA boss has still dropped nothing in 3 runs in a row (then magically drops like 3 >__> stupid boss lol) And yes I remember that DQ "compensation" in the form of x2 drop but the whole point was that people felt as if they were giving the flying finger to those who actually was present at their screens grinding as opposed to farmers/botters being rampant in other versions. That and the fact that non paying players felt a bit shafted about the whole affair inadvertently telling them that grinding for money to spend in the gold market or spending it to fuel the economy wasn't the way to do it and that it was leaning towards a CSer friendly world. But I dont want to really go there on that, as it would derail this thread into the lower depths faster than people asking for bans.

@ Janus-which is why usually in those threads I've resorted to calmly continuing my feedback here and there after my freak out posts about 3-2 Emp XD Now, my real only beef just comes from how people are getting treated by mod statements and how some of Grim's policing makes no sense *points to a thread where he brings up the rule about not talking about competing MMO's including other versions of PW* b:surrender that makes every single time someones referenced China/Malaysia versions a chance of getting their posts edited (if Im reading that rule right ) >< which reminds me, has that rule ever been actively enforced or is it just me that they now start enforcing it? Threads get depth'd so fast, locked, deleted and people banned that my head spins.

And really, I usually thank the GMs when they do post an update so long as in the same breath dont call me nitpicking or insult me in any other way. Which usually isn't the case So I would say just because one person doesn't feel that they should thank the GM's for update however small doesn't mean that other people don't. I just wish that the devs would be less vague and/or restrictive on the GM's.

About the Grim thing, indeed it will end up causing a stir (I know how much we, here, like stirring) if there is such a sudden and steep change to moderating style. That would be rightful complaints. The forums and GM's (well, those from NA) and CM's are part of a publishing subsidiary. I know most people don't quite understand how this thing works, but often times development classifies priority of bug fixes.

The way a single player game like Metal Gear Solid or early Rock Band go about fixing things is through extensive bug tests and quality control, which also includes, in all likelihood, a pre-localization done with an actual localization team. The way MMO's work is different, and the way F2P models work is even further different than the general MMO. For instance, they may send game strings (NPC dialogue, skill descripts, etc.) to their American subsidiary to better translate them (which means that, possibly, GM's and other people will be doing developer side work for the developers), or outsource localization to some contractor. When bugs get reported, most of the time, developers end up finding out through the GM's (American, and guaranteed, there are some GM's from China who play) or through a report through the CM or other employee from the American branch. When that is sent to the developer, they decide 1) the nature of the bug or problem and decide how to classify it, 2) prioritize whether it can be fixed, whether they can use up enough development time used for other projects to fix this issue at all, i.e. the most cost-effective way to handle it, then 3) work on it, push it back until other projects are done, or simply ignore it if they feel (regardless of what's logical) it doesn't break the game, i.e. like a crash to desktop or money/speed **** etc.

Working in the F2P MMO industry, an American GM or CM getting foreign developers to move their *** to fix issues in a timely fashion is like pulling teeth. Developers have management up their *** to keep the cash flow coming in, because if their financial statements suggest vulnerability (like someone mentioned the stock problem a while back on the forums) then they start to heavily push out cash making products to drive stock back up. In the end though, the developers made the game, and thus are, regardless of who's yelling in their ear, ultimately responsible for how quickly things get fixed or implemented. American publishers, including GM's/CM's/marketing assistants, etc., in most cases are victims of paranoia and distrust due to the open nature of how American business is conducted versus Asia. That would be a cultural thing.

Indeed if there are bugs and **** they should, without a doubt, be voiced to Frankie. It's his job to get endless complaints about bugs, features, content releases, etc. They are supposed to provide a service to you, especially if you are spending real money. If you spend real money, and don't get results from your complaints in the fashion you consider timely, stop spending money on it, or (a tip for those who spend nothing) find another game. The developers, and especially management, will get the picture, when they have less populated servers, and their income is significantly less. However, flaming Frankie and presuming he should be giving updates faster than developers can give them to him about fixes isn't smart and without any knowledge of how this works. The company I worked for, it took nearly a year to fix a fricken broken e-mail customer support system. Pardon my bias, but as far as development and service go, P2P's are generally better than F2P's. And PWI is amongst the best F2P MMO's you'll find.

Tamias - Archosaur

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

See wtf is this? This is where people are ridiculous. "Ya but I had bad luck dat week!!1! stupid frankie, all frankie's fault!!" WHAT THE HELL?? That trash shouldn't come up in any thread.

As for the DQ drop reduction, do you really think the devs thought "mwahahahaha, let's reduce DQ prices and ruin the game that puts food on our tables?" Hell no, they did it cause they felt it was important, just like how the government will tax people when they feel it's important. The government doesn't think "we should tax people to be jerks," they think "if we tax everyone a small portion, then we can pay for this great program that will benefit everyone without any one individual having to pay a ton just to make it happen." PWE doesn't think "we should do this to be jerks," they think "we believe this will ensure economic stability in the future."


And you know what? The devs have made an impressively stable economy in this game thusfar. I'd love to see another MMO with an even more stable economy. For this reason, I dunno why everyone screams "omg stupid devs don't know what they're doing. I, 14-year-old random So-and-So, am obviously an economic expert and I know how to balance our game and they're idiots for not listening to me." The only legit complaint in here is that we got a change made in China that wasn't at all individualized for our version, and as I've said before, show me one god damn MMO company that does that. They ALL take this same damn shortcut.

Um first of where did I say ANYTHING in there about Frankie? Dear Lord I feel sorry for him-dragged up in a post where I said really nothing about him. You assumed I was speaking of Frankie maybe because I said GMs? nah-I'm more concerned about Kanto and the more quieter GMs ;-;

I merely stated that it was a "stupid boss lol" as to be light hearted. Nowhere in that did I say anything that you're flying off the handle about. I would like to not have it be called "trash" when it was merely an off handed remark in lieu of that double drop week you speak of but again, there seems to be a civility problem when someone is being as civil as possible. I merely am stating how alot of people had responded (mind you the people that were attempting to be logical about it, not the people who were being newbies and flying off the handle for no reason) And I even said as my last line that I dont even want to go into this as it will derail something good here that Red is trying to discuss. So please just for some small ounce of respect to those who are trying to practice competency and civility (there's that word again civil ) don't run around saying things that I didn't state in the afore mentioned part you quoted.

And reasons why Im majoring in Game Art and Design is that I want to be the creative side on a team for a game that WILL do that however impossible it might seem. And I'll be darn sure to come back (without breaking the posting rule on discussing other MMO's ><)and show how it can be entirely possible and that a company can do that. But anyways that's beside the point *hopes she didn't derail the thread with this post*

I'll sit by and wait patiently for Frankie to respond as out of all the GMs that do float around forums, he does post the most (as far as updates/engagement wise) And the wiki mod doesn't count tehee (hopes that her joke doesn't get blown out of proportion again *sweatdrop*)b:avoid

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Dear JanusZeal: Please answer this post I already made. Thank you.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The lack of updates on popular issues is still an argument with some traction. Janus, you're oversimplifying the problem. The fact that updates technically exist does not mean that they are satisfactory proof that he's doing his job properly.

With minor changes, most of his updates are just the same thing copy-pasted over again. Even if he has nothing new to tell us, he does need to write out his posts and empathize with us. You see, that's the fundamental ingredient that's missing. Usually we get something like this:

...oh, oh, oh, and if we're lucky, sometimes we even get this!:

(EDIT: These are not actual quotes from Frankie. But come on, you could be mistaken for thinking they are. -_-)

Those are stock lines. We know they're stock lines. It's obvious.

Where is the individuality? Where is the sense that we're not being fed a sheet of paper from a robot programmed to keep us placated? Where is the evidence that Frankie genuinely reads the threads and gives some measure of independent thought and compassion to them? This isn't compassion. This is business-speak.

Compassion came naturally to Spoons. I have yet to see Frankie master it.

But all that being said!... As I said in an earlier post, which seemed to be ignored... every time Frankie makes an update post, it's received warmly, even if it's a stock line. He should have no fear of this foot-in-mouth scenario of which you speak.

Longknife - Harshlands

Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »

Um first of where did I say ANYTHING in there about Frankie? Dear Lord I feel sorry for him-dragged up in a post where I said really nothing about him. You assumed I was speaking of Frankie maybe because I said GMs? nah-I'm more concerned about Kanto and the more quieter GMs ;-;

I merely stated that it was a "stupid boss lol" as to be light hearted. Nowhere in that did I say anything that you're flying off the handle about. I would like to not have it be called "trash" when it was merely an off handed remark in lieu of that double drop week you speak of but again, there seems to be a civility problem when someone is being as civil as possible. I merely am stating how alot of people had responded (mind you the people that were attempting to be logical about it, not the people who were being newbies and flying off the handle for no reason) And I even said as my last line that I dont even want to go into this as it will derail something good here that Red is trying to discuss. So please just for some small ounce of respect to those who are trying to practice competency and civility (there's that word again civil ) don't run around saying things that I didn't state in the afore mentioned part you quoted.

And reasons why Im majoring in Game Art and Design is that I want to be the creative side on a team for a game that WILL do that however impossible it might seem. And I'll be darn sure to come back (without breaking the posting rule on discussing other MMO's ><)and show how it can be entirely possible and that a company can do that. But anyways that's beside the point *hopes she didn't derail the thread with this post*

I'll sit by and wait patiently for Frankie to respond as out of all the GMs that do float around forums, he does post the most (as far as updates/engagement wise) And the wiki mod doesn't count tehee (hopes that her joke doesn't get blown out of proportion again *sweatdrop*)b:avoid

You wouldn't know civil if it bit you in the ***. Try writing a letter that says:


"I would like to request we drop the discussion. (These parenthesis are where I tell you you're a jackass and you fail at life)"

And see how many people take you seriously. Neither of us is being civil; don't try to pretend you're something you're not.


And whether you realize it or not, there are nabs who take lines like what you posted and start in with "IT'S A CONSPIRACY!211! DROP RATES WEREN'T INCREASED AT ALL" bullcrap, and then everyone goes bat-**** insane and throws their poo on the wall and that's the last thing we need. So if you want my opinion, please spare us those lines.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

You wouldn't know civil if it bit you in the ***. Try writing a letter that says:


"I would like to request we drop the discussion. (These parenthesis are where I tell you you're a jackass and you fail at life)"

And see how many people take you seriously. Neither of us is being civil; don't try to pretend you're something you're not.


And whether you realize it or not, there are nabs who take lines like what you posted and start in with "IT'S A CONSPIRACY!211! DROP RATES WEREN'T INCREASED AT ALL" bullcrap, and then everyone goes bat-**** insane and throws their poo on the wall and that's the last thing we need. So if you want my opinion, please spare us those lines.

*throws poo* b:fatb

RedsRose - Lost City

Let us all try to stay on track as we have been and in the civil manner to which the discussion has been going. Thank you again for that.

I would like to remind people that this post has nothing to do with the game itself but everything to do with these forums.

The proof that this is/was a great community is that even those who have chosen to no longer play the game are still active and/or visit these forums.

^ imo that should say something


Keep discussing...I think this has turned into a great discussion thread and MUCH more then I ever thought it would get too.

Jennalicious - Sanctuary

LOL, 34 pages and not a single response. Can't think up of any new lies to tell us? Also, way to show the community that you actually give a damn.

MagicHamsta - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

Let us all try to stay on track as we have been and in the civil manner to which the discussion has been going. Thank you again for that.

I would like to remind people that this post has nothing to do with the game itself but everything to do with these forums.

The proof that this is/was a great community is that even those who have chosen to no longer play the game are still active and/or visit these forums.

^ imo that should say something


Keep discussing...I think this has turned into a great discussion thread and MUCH more then I ever thought it would get too.

(o.o)^
Me are agree with the above post.
And enough of the **** tossing.
x.x'

Tamias - Archosaur

Long-You can seethe and insinuate all you like but like I said, I'd tried the "flaming mad" route (on Gaia Online) and it NEVER worked. I'm not going to bother engaging, as you obviously think I have some civility problem (which tbh I have no clue where you got that from) It was a joke about GBA boss since it's kind of a faction joke where I'm from that GBA's drop rate is "suckors" (but that too will sadly get blown out of context when it's not even meant to) If they take what I read like that you can be sure I'll be there to set it straight. Of course people will read what they choose to in what people say-there's no denying that. We can't tell people not to go "bat-@#%@!" but be that as it may-

"My experiences on the drop rates are not comparative to yours as you may have better luck than me so my drop rate experience is just something I'm throwing out there into the data pool (but of course you'll interpret it every which way to suit your attacks on me so lets be done with it. Never mind that I was merely joking about GBA boss but I guess you're assuming Im calling you an idiot when the lines you claim to read between are so nonexistent it's scary. Btw why ARE these parentheses here when I didnt even have anything extra going on "between the lines" anyways? @__@)&quot;

Does that suit your view of someone you don't know better? However you bring this up allows me to make a good point here that I've made before earlier. That the way its been handled has not been done as maturely as it could of *stares at the MNS hate party that was mentioned in the mod thread that was depth'd* I even said myself that my "ape shting" over Emp in 3-2 was a bit dumb and so I can see what other people have been up in arms about...where people who try to be civil in the midst of everyone going crazy gets ignored ,until you conform to their "you're just as uncivil as me" interpretation of you, which in turn then has the same "ape crazy" people screaming that you're being a hypocrite when you act out. Which brings us back to the discussions at hand. People who normally wouldn't have gotten so out of hand (who are CIVIL and respectable posters) but snap once or twice and get banned. Which brings us to the way the mod situation and how it was handled.

This derailment disappoints me that I have to go out of my way to bring it back roundabouts . WTB magical hamster powers to make things right again XDDD
b:sweat

BTW Miu I didn't get around to commenting on what you said but honestly I have a very very good example of that and it was in a discussion about TW's across servers. Frankie dropped by and immediately after that all the response were "ty for coming in and responding" as well as immediately after that suggesting things and again thanking them for his time. I myself was one of those people who thanked him for coming in as he did not have to. It was one of those moments where he was more human I guess you could say than some other responses people point to as being a bit generic. (the thread did get depth'd sadly due to the fact that it was getting into a debate between 2 people in there but I wont get into that lol) So yes you're correct in saying that he is thanked for his time more often than people think he is.

EDIT-Ty Reds and sorry for the derailment *waves white flag* tried to get it back to what I was trying to say ><

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »

WTB magical hamster powers to make things right again XDDD
b:sweat

Not for the sale.
>:
And me am working on it, in me own way.
b:avoid

RedsRose - Lost City

Tamias - Archosaur wrote: »

EDIT-Ty Reds and sorry for the derailment *waves white flag* tried to get it back to what I was trying to say ><

No worries...I meant overall.

I think this thread is amazing and a perfect discussion so far.

b:cute

Notgood - Raging Tide

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

No worries...I meant overall.

I think this thread is amazing and a perfect discussion so far.

b:cute

i liike your sig xD creepy and yet funny

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The lack of updates on popular issues is still an argument with some traction. Janus, you're oversimplifying the problem. The fact that updates technically exist does not mean that they are satisfactory proof that he's doing his job properly.

With minor changes, most of his updates are just the same thing copy-pasted over again. Even if he has nothing new to tell us, he does need to write out his posts and empathize with us. You see, that's the fundamental ingredient that's missing. Usually we get something like this:

No, he doesn't have to. He should though, but most definitely, he doesn't have to. If he's told what to write, how he even could empathize with us? He can't. We can say he's not doing his job but that's only going to give him a bad feeling. I couldn't sleep at night thinking: "damn, hundreds of players hate me for saying things that are 100% true".

And I don't complain. I feel sad for him.

The main thing is that PWE (like all MMO companies) is a company different from 'normal' companies. You can't expect anything to happen fast, if at all. I'd be happy we still have DQ items in game... I know game companies that would've just removed them from the game.

Also, frankie can't say anything about the new updates. Of course it would be cool to hear frankie say "we got Arena coming back in the next month". Even if he knew that (he would if that was to happen, trust me) he'd get insta-fired from his job for doing so. It can't be that hard to understand what they can say and what they can't.

@everyone who asked for better responses from frankie: those are not his words. He is told what he's supposed to say. And no, arena is not coming back in a month.

Frankie, keep doing your job just like you have done in the past. Things could be way worse. Way, way worse.

LOKl_ - Harshlands

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

What does that mean?

There is nothing to forward to anyone.

This has and is an AMAZING discussion thread, one in which this forum needs. (Most definitely what I expected to see tbh).

Keep discussing everyone!! I am enjoying reading the different views and this is proof we can be civil and yet still have opinions!

I agree... But one I hadn't had much sleep at the time and 2 it was something I had said I was gonna do in the earlier posts. Just to see if maybe just maybe something could be done. About the forum moderation or get a response from the new mods here in this discussion.

RedsRose - Lost City

Notgood - Raging Tide wrote: »

i liike your sig xD creepy and yet funny

Michael made it for me. b:cute

LOKl_ - Harshlands wrote: »

I agree... But one I hadn't had much sleep at the time and 2 it was something I had said I was gonna do in the earlier posts. Just to see if maybe just maybe something could be done. About the forum moderation or get a response from the new mods here in this discussion.

Ohhh ok, it was early for me too and I was confused

Susylu - Heavens Tear

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

Let us all try to stay on track as we have been and in the civil manner to which the discussion has been going. Thank you again for that.

I would like to remind people that this post has nothing to do with the game itself but everything to do with these forums.

The proof that this is/was a great community is that even those who have chosen to no longer play the game are still active and/or visit these forums.

^ imo that should say something


Keep discussing...I think this has turned into a great discussion thread and MUCH more then I ever thought it would get too.

I would think that although the discussion is geared towards the monitoring of the forums, you can't really address the problem with the forums unless you discuss the game in which the forums were made for (somewhat). Afterall, most posts that are targetted by the players/mods/gms are an effect of game changes.

Jennalicious - Sanctuary wrote: »

LOL, 34 pages and not a single response. Can't think up of any new lies to tell us? Also, way to show the community that you actually give a damn.

Please calm down. We all know you are frustrated but seeing posts like these pop up constantly is kind of annoying.

RedsRose - Lost City

I would like to direct you to the current state of the forums...

Just look...

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Susylu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I would think that although the discussion is geared towards the monitoring of the forums, you can't really address the problem with the forums unless you discuss the game in which the forums were made for (somewhat). Afterall, most posts that are targetted by the players/mods/gms are an effect of game changes.



Please calm down. We all know you are frustrated but seeing posts like these pop up constantly is kind of annoying.

You be missing the point.
>:

RedsRose - Lost City

No sign of the Mod's, no sign of a GM/Cm...timezones? in other forums?

This entire thing....

MagicHamsta - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

No sign of the Mod's, no sign of a GM/Cm...timezones? in other forums?

This entire thing....

Even Jade Dynasty has mods online.
b:sweat

Susylu - Heavens Tear

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

You be missing the point.
>:

Please tell me the point cause I'm lost...

My head must be off somewhere in lala land after reading posts after posts of irresponsible people making fun of gms and mods for not intervening... but who would? b:laugh

I don't know... do we really deserve all the attention and care from people who give us free service from the beginning, especially after we trampled over them for not giving us more? b:surrender

RedsRose - Lost City

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

Even Jade Dynasty has mods online.
b:sweat

I know...

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Susylu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Please tell me the point cause I'm lost...Me leave it to you to see it.

My head must be off somewhere in lala land after reading posts after posts of irresponsible people making fun of gms and mods for not intervening... but who would? b:laugh

I don't know... do we really deserve all the attention and care from people who give us free service from the beginning, especially after we trampled over them for not giving us more? The players has run the forum for the most part (the "free service" me assume you mean the mandatory services required to keep any game going) but the majority of stuff happens to come from the players, the "GMs" overstepped their bounds with the recent TW fake bidding incident. They also glossed over/ignored quite a lot of the changes on this game. b:surrender

Also the new mods, while me has nothing against them, frankie appointed one who's already moderating (and already has a preference for) the FW forums while the other be rather inexperienced and apparently chosen at random.
b:surrender

Centetric - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

Sure, why not. At this point the banhammer is fierce. I am only speaking the TRUTH and conveying the feelings of this community.

Z- snap
uh huh tell em sista.

ya got my support
i quit the forums because of the over flow of flamers xD

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Centetric - Lost City wrote: »

Z- snap
uh huh tell em sista.

Ello there Centetric.
b:bye

SilverCleric - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

No sign of the Mod's, no sign of a GM/Cm...timezones? in other forums?

This entire thing....

This is why lack of communication and not even trying learn more about the community of the forums messed up everything in this game.

None of this happened when Spoon's was still a GM. b:surrender

RedsRose - Lost City

Centetric - Lost City wrote: »

Z- snap
uh huh tell em sista.

Hai hun b:kiss

Missed you

Sad you have to see the forums like this b:cry

Susylu - Heavens Tear

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

Also the new mods, while me has nothing against them, frankie appointed one who's already moderating (and already has a preference for) the FW forums while the other be rather inexperienced and apparently chosen at random.
b:surrender

I still fail to see your point as a valid argument.

GMs can't overstep any bounds because they set the bounds. That's what they're entitled to, and you agreed to be subject under their game/forum changes. And to lay out your thoughts about it whether you like it or not is perfectly fine. But -

I just need someone to post a sound argument as to why should demand and cry for attention NOW, especially in such a negative manner, especially if you said yourself that the forums were run by the players themselves. Maybe someone posted it somewhere, but I guess I've missed it. Besides the fact that "it would be nice" if they did it, I want to know why people have to go so far as to degrade themselves to get attention from people that have been serving them all this time.

It's kind of rude to be expecting them to be so kind and generous to you as before when you don't even do anything really to make them stay that way. You don't even pay them...

Really, is it the gms/mods fault that forums are the way it is now? Is it really their lack of communication or their strict enforcement of forum rules and banning people that say outrageous things against the game? Or is it really the forum posters that can't control themselves and cause mayhem for expecting something that they're not entitled to?

Although I would like to know where they are hiding right now. I do think they're letting this get out of hand too much.

Please tell me where I'm flawed, kind of tired maybe not thinking straight b:sad

Centetric - Lost City

hi hammy ......
rosey
just jumped on the forums and its in a blaze O_O

ummmm wth?