Wizards VS Psychics

/Groovy/ - Harshlands

Imagine that you are a wizard in TW.
Imagine that you can't use your Stone Barrier, Force of Will, Undine or sleep.
Imagine that the only defence you have is lvl1 Force of Will which casts randomly when you are being hit and draining your mana + a skill that allows to make your attacker oneshot himself - unless he stops attacking you and just waits a bit. Cooldown 30 seconds.
Imagine that your defence level is always -11.
Imagine that you can't use Distance Shrink.
Imagine that only ultimate you can use is underleveled Blade Tempest with physical damage part turned into damage over time.
Imagine that you don't have Sutra.


That's what Physics feel during TW.


They might be nice 1vs1 or World PvP class, I don't know. But in TW they got worse survival skills than wizard, with selfbuff turning them into walking oneshots, with control skills requiring enemy to hit them first before effect procs...
b:surrender

Borsuc - Raging Tide

But you can actually AOE stun from afar unlike a BM, and your underleveled Blade Tempest casts as fast as Hailstorm.

Also, as a psy you have a debuff against the cata pulling barbs to make their charms tick longer...

but still Blade Tempest is a truly good ultimate, too bad that most opponents have EITHER physical or elemental weakness but not both, unless you are fighting LA users. Endgame, the fact that it deals TWICE base magic damage makes it deal around 1600% weapon damage with 500 mag. Which is double that of Red Tide. b:victory

Though to be honest, I've never seen a psy as complaining he is weak in TW. I've seen sins though, but those probably don't know how to pick their targets (i.e NOT cata-pulling barbs :P joking lol).

Kristoph - Lost City

/Groovy/ - Harshlands wrote: »

Imagine that you are a wizard in TW.
Imagine that you can't use your Stone Barrier, Force of Will, Undine or sleep.
Imagine that the only defence you have is lvl1 Force of Will which casts randomly when you are being hit and draining your mana + a skill that allows to make your attacker oneshot himself - unless he stops attacking you and just waits a bit. Cooldown 30 seconds.
Imagine that your defence level is always -11.
Imagine that you can't use Distance Shrink.
Imagine that only ultimate you can use is underleveled Blade Tempest with physical damage part turned into damage over time.
Imagine that you don't have Sutra.


That's what Physics feel during TW.


They might be nice 1vs1 or World PvP class, I don't know. But in TW they got worse survival skills than wizard, with selfbuff turning them into walking oneshots, with control skills requiring enemy to hit them first before effect procs...
b:surrender

lol... a skill that your attacker oneshot himself? Keep in mind this skill can be casted while having white voodoo on. This can be casted on a fast hitting class like archers/BMs that are targetting your allies. This can be casted on one of their strongest DDs, forcing them to either stop attacking and being useless or simply killing themself. Keep in mind that you can **** the effectivity of a cata puller's charm while having white voodoo on.


And how do you feel as a wizard when you see that debuffed catapuller running past you? Gonna cast mountain seize and hope it goes off before your target runs out of range or you get stunned? Imagine being able to cast something like gush that stuns for 6 seconds and costs 1 spark.


And keep in mind, even if you are squishy, you can stun whoever attacks you, giving you time to run away. It won't save you from every situation, but the same goes for wizards and distance shrink... and you have a skill that makes you immune to physical damage, meaning you can get out of certain situations as long as you have a spark. And simply hitting domain followed by switching to white voodoo might save you from deaths.


But really, I hardly have any experience playing a Psy... meaning there's plenty of other things to learn and do. If you really think that way about psychics I feel sorry for you. They're not useless and they don't go down as easily as you seem to think.

/Groovy/ - Harshlands

I posted extreme point of view just like QQers post their extreme point of view


Regarding killing cata barbs - it's not my job to stun that cata barb. BMs and archers stun them, I just nuke them. If I HAVE TO stop rushing cata, I can either sleep (for only 20 Chi) or use Glacial Snare (6 seconds of barb basically immobilized). Duh, I've even seen some wizards with Occult Ice, that would do the job too.


And I'm not sure what wonderful tactic can Psychic develop to counter archer critting on them with first shot or barb ninja perditioning near them when they are busy killing other target.

I'd rather see Psychics as support class, keeping White Voodoo on most of the time, buffing own cata and debuffing enemy catas, helping finish off high priority targets with Soulburn, annoying enemies targetting them with those "Soul of..." skills, messing up wizards and clerics with channeling debuff, etc. etc.

But nah, all Psychics I've seen so far just have to prove they are better DDs than wizards and run around doing kamikazi attacks.

Kristoph - Lost City

/Groovy/ - Harshlands wrote: »

Regarding killing cata barbs - it's not my job to stun that cata barb. BMs and archers stun them, I just nuke them. If I HAVE TO stop rushing cata, I can either sleep (for only 20 Chi) or use Glacial Snare (6 seconds of barb basically immobilized). Duh, I've even seen some wizards with Occult Ice, that would do the job too.

No, glacial snare really doesn't do much on a cata barb. And "it's not your job"? Who cares? Fact is that you can't do it. If you're using occult ice your genie is worthless. Sleep has a 2 minute cooldown and is gone as soon as someone hits them once and that's not going to be a paralyze or stun half the time.

/Groovy/ - Harshlands

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

And "it's not your job"? Who cares? Fact is that you can't do it.

Why would I even want to do the "stun job" if any BM can do that much better? I'd rather spend that time DDing the target.

I can't use the pet to attack my opponents either, does it mean wizards are inferior to venos?


Maybe it's only me but I will take 100% Pdef bonus working 24/7 over 1-spark stun.

Every class deal best damage when alive, after all.

Kristoph - Lost City

/Groovy/ - Harshlands wrote: »

Why would I even want to do the "stun job" if any BM can do that much better? I'd rather spend that time DDing the target.

I can't use the pet to attack my opponents either, does it mean wizards are inferior to venos?


Maybe it's only me but I will take 100% Pdef bonus working 24/7 over 1-spark stun.

Every class deal best damage when alive, after all.

Do you have any TW experience? At all? Ofcourse BMs can stun better than you, but it doesn't mean they're targetting the same person you are. They might have no chi, they might have gotten stunned themselves, or god knows how many other possibilities.


lol @ you rather spend your time DDing the target. Earth Vector deals damage and stops your target from doing anything at the same time. Allows everyone around you to catch up to your target to stun, debuff, or whatever else.


Either way, attacking a cata puller with a Psy + Wizard is going to work FAR better than attacking with Wizard + Wizard.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

/Groovy/ - Harshlands wrote: »

But nah, all Psychics I've seen so far just have to prove they are better DDs than wizards and run around doing kamikazi attacks.

That's pretty unfortunate, and the reason might be because people on older servers are "afraid" of rerolling into a psy and start all over, they might have invested a lot in their other classes, so you get the idea.

Although yes psys are good as supporting they can also be better DD than a wiz. By DD I mean deal damage, not bypassing charms, of course. It doesn't matter much when you gank them anyway, since a charm tick won't do much (they can deal much more damage in those 10 seconds, although they can die much faster with Black Voodoo and no Stone Barrier)

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

That's pretty unfortunate, and the reason might be because people on older servers are "afraid" of rerolling into a psy and start all over, they might have invested a lot in their other classes, so you get the idea.

Although yes psys are good as supporting they can also be better DD than a wiz. By DD I mean deal damage, not bypassing charms, of course. It doesn't matter much when you gank them anyway, since a charm tick won't do much (they can deal much more damage in those 10 seconds, although they can die much faster with Black Voodoo and no Stone Barrier)

wizz cant use the sutra ? b:shocked

/Groovy/ - Harshlands

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Do you have any TW experience? At all? Ofcourse BMs can stun better than you, but it doesn't mean they're targetting the same person you are.

Ever heard about Ventrillo? Look it up, really makes TW easier...

-_____-"


I can agree that Wizard + Psychic combo would be better than 2 wizzies.
But Wizard + Wizard > Psychic + Psychic

Bobobobobo - Lost City

/Groovy/ - Harshlands wrote: »

Ever heard about Ventrillo? Look it up, really makes TW easier...

-_____-"


I can agree that Wizard + Psychic combo would be better than 2 wizzies.
But Wizard + Wizard > Psychic + Psychic

Lol who cares if psychic is good, better or w/e in TW, every class have its uses in TW, (even sin for scout lol?). All that matters in TW is winning by destroying cristal, eg have gear=$$ and strategy=ppl who follow orders.

Adroit - Lost City

/Groovy/ - Harshlands wrote: »

Ever heard about Ventrillo? Look it up, really makes TW easier...

-_____-"


I can agree that Wizard + Psychic combo would be better than 2 wizzies.
But Wizard + Wizard > Psychic + Psychic

I 100% agree with Kristoph about having an ability to stop a barb. Vent is always nice.. but a barbs regularly just run past the BMs.. the BM's themselves may have been stunned or w/e it is.. I can't tell you how many times a barb has just passed my squad.. I holy path to catch up.. and feel helpless to stop the barb. I generally try a sleep -> MS to keep them stunned, but most the time a cleric from above sleeps me or someone pokes the barb right after I slept them or my sleep is on colldown.. and then they are out of range by the time MS falls. Sometimes when I don't have 2 sparks I try a hailstorm out of desperation, but that often fails as well. Anyway.. vent doesn't solve everything.. and there will always be cases where a person has a moment in time where they wished they had a quick stun to stop that barb as they are rushing through.

Kristoph - Lost City

/Groovy/ - Harshlands wrote: »

Ever heard about Ventrillo? Look it up, really makes TW easier...

-_____-"


I can agree that Wizard + Psychic combo would be better than 2 wizzies.
But Wizard + Wizard > Psychic + Psychic

Ventrilo does what? Does it magically bring the dead BM in your party back to life? Does it remove any sleep/stun/slow off of the BM? Does it give the BM free chi?


There's plenty of times where being able to stun someone fast at the cost of a spark would help incredibly much. In some situations you'd even be better off with Psy + Psy. And who knows, maybe demon/sage and 79 skills will make them even more useful. But even as they are, Psy's are definately useful characters in TW. Replacing 2-3 wizards with equally good geared Psy's would benefit the guild a lot.

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

I agree with most of this stuff here, though I have some other alternatives for dealing with soulburn (if you were in fact talking about soulburn).




If they are running past me they do not have invoke up, but might have that little white wing that means they are immune to stun. If so, my only way to halt them would be to kill them, or threaten them enough that they use invoke.

Yes, if they anti stun then your only hope of stopping them is a really well-timed purge followed by a stun/paralyze. If that doesn't happen then a wizard will probably be more useful; blink/holy path after the barb and seal when the barb gets to the towers/crystal so they can't turtle before their anti stun runs out.


I'm not saying Psy's are gods or should replace wizards, but they're definately good to have around. I rather have a Psy in my squad stunning that barb and **** his charm over than another wizard as equally worthless as me when that barb happily runs into base.

Adroit - Lost City

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

If you have 3.99 sparks, why would you not be using something like sutra, GS, MS?

I rarely have full sparks first of all.. I die regularly. Every time I build 2sparks or more I generally use it on the first group I see so it doesn't get wasted when a +12 8jun/nirvana archer one shots me. On top of that, most the time as they are running through they have used an anti stun (either pot or skill) so I just try to run alongside them until it runs out or they get debuffed.. and that usually means I need to my chi on distance shrink. Now assuming I don't get stunned/slept etc as I'm chasing the barb, I usually will try to use a no channel pot -> MS (I hate wasting all my sparks on that when I know I'm going to need those sparks in a minute to take down the barb). For the most part though, something will go wrong.. I will get slept by the clerics flying above or my skills/pots will be on cooldown or I won't have enough chi.. I will lag and they will run past me.. etc. So short answer to your question, I do try that when I can.. but that isn't very often >.>

Haiz - Lost City

I generally have full sparks a lot. I find using all 3.99 of it on one character a big waste though.

In TW, doing a sutra ulti I generally consider a waste of a sutra. Sure it is fun for a 1v1 or something so you get an upper hand, but in TW there will always be more people to kill. To use up my spark I will either sutra if there is a high HP target, will use an ultimate on a group of people, or triple spark on a single high hp target if my sutra is on cool down.

Using all of your chi to only stop a catapult means you won't have any chi to kill the catapult when the others catch up. As a wizard you just have to depend on others to stop the catapult, and when they are stopped that is when you unleash whatever you have. It is a group effort, and the best thing you can do is gush or GS them to let others catch up some.

Save your spark for the kill, don't waste it on stopping someone because when those BMs catch up and dragon, who will ulti then?

Zuunu - Heavens Tear

Bladetempestkthxbai. b:victory

PrettySammy - Sanctuary

Hmm can't say I get trip sparks in TW too often, I think there is some sign over my head saying shoot me LOL. when I get 2 its Sage Black Ice Dragon time. apart from that I spam the basic 3 skills.

As for the Psy issues, they get 4 aoe skills compared to our 6 but ours have much better range. In the last TW we had wizards and psy's working side by side and I think on the performance its fair to say 1 v 1 the psy was faster but the wizards did more overall damage.

Can't see Wizard getting replaced any time soon especially when we have skills like Black Ice Dragon. Major difference for me is that the psy's die really fast or underhit depending on which voodoo is being used.

Also we do get undine strike which does make up for additonal damage. Those of your like me with a "certain fire based genie skill" will also know we have a slight advantage of having Fire elemental skills. Put it like this a 4 spell fire sutra plus that genie skill = flash fried opponent 9 times out of 10

From PvE I can say the psy and wizards basic to med skills seems about equal but the upper skills the Nuke I have noticed I always outdamage the psy's.

Overall I welcome the psy's cos now im not the squishiest anymore LOL

anyhow thats my two cents, now i'm broke and Haiz keep the videos coming

Have a great day pwi

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Of course you deal more damage per hit lol, that's the only thing we've got good. b:chuckle

I don't think you can deal more damage, on average, than a psy though. That is, let's say, average over 10 seconds. Unless you got that Sutra ready, of course.

Haiz - Lost City

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

I do not know, but... white tea?

Or, since you are sage, use your sutra to build some chi, use some cheaper tea and maybe master li's?

I suppose though that demon wizards have a slightly easier time, stopping pullers...

It's rather annoying to see people use the excuse "oh you can just use white tea" or even now people go "cloud eruption". Pots have a long cool down and they aren't readily available most of the time. Genies the same, I use most of my genies energy on frenzy and amp, and I rarely have enough energy left over for defensive skills. You can't depend on pots to do well either.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Haiz - Lost City wrote: »

It's rather annoying to see people use the excuse "oh you can just use white tea" or even now people go "cloud eruption". Pots have a long cool down and they aren't readily available most of the time. Genies the same, I use most of my genies energy on frenzy and amp, and I rarely have enough energy left over for defensive skills. You can't depend on pots to do well either.

same about genie but i use pot most of time in tw when i think i can do nice dmg with 3rd spark+udine+amp+frenzy+bt/or bids. simple i like the high dmg if this crit.

LordPangu - Harshlands

Psychics are amasing in 1v1 if played correctly, and seriously hard to kill and defend agaisnt when they really know how to play. But they still dont have the ability to maintain high defense and high attack like wizzards do, which makes them easy prey or last target in PvP. What concerns TW I would say their function is a bit different than the wizzard. Because their aoes are not as strong as Wizzards they rather pick targets off one by one. The PvP experiences I had with psychics, both high levels and low levels, rank8 and npc gear, I can say that they are like Venomancers without nix but with the power of a wizzard. But when they get this wizzard power they are easier to kill than clerics unbuffed.

About the use of sparks in TW for wizzards, by my experience its important to make full use of your sparks as soon as you get it cause you might not take 5 mins with it if your opponent is strong. I rarely build 3 sparks cause Im always using sparks and when the catas are spotted I save the sparks to kill them. Sparks in TW are like "water in the sand", it can stay on the surface for sometime or it might dissappear immediatly, cause its not hard to die as a wizzard in TW.

EDIT: We could say it like this, if your alive, **** as many ppl as possible.

Adroit - Lost City

LordPangu - Harshlands wrote: »

Psychics are amasing in 1v1 if played correctly, and seriously hard to kill and defend agaisnt when they really know how to play. But they still dont have the ability to maintain high defense and high attack like wizzards do, which makes them easy prey or last target in PvP. What concerns TW I would say their function is a bit different than the wizzard. Because their aoes are not as strong as Wizzards they rather pick targets off one by one. The PvP experiences I had with psychics, both high levels and low levels, rank8 and npc gear, I can say that they are like Venomancers without nix but with the power of a wizzard. But when they get this wizzard power they are easier to kill than clerics unbuffed.

About the use of sparks in TW for wizzards, by my experience its important to make full use of your sparks as soon as you get it cause you might not take 5 mins with it if your opponent is strong. I rarely build 3 sparks cause Im always using sparks and when the catas are spotted I save the sparks to kill them. Sparks in TW are like "water in the sand", it can stay on the surface for sometime or it might dissappear immediatly, cause its not hard to die as a wizzard in TW.

EDIT: We could say it like this, if your alive, **** as many ppl as possible.

your comparisons are really confusing...

Astrohawke - Lost City

Lol at all the wizzies trying so hard to prove they're not worthless next to psychics. Just FYI, no one else is saying wizards are outclassed, just yourselves. I haven't seen a single topic (not even on the psychic forums) that's saying psychics > wizards but there's like 3 topics here on how wizards > psychics on the first page alone.

If you haven't played both a psy and wiz to decent levels, you shouldn't comment because they have completely different roles and play styles. One is not better than the other. They cannot and should not replace each other in TW/PvP.

The one thing I absolutely disagree on is the fact that people think psychics are easier to play and high level wizards are somehow "pro". Yes, maybe psychics are easier to grind with in the first 40 levels because they kill most mobs before it reaches them. God forbid wizards have to kite a bit before they learn WotP. After that, it's all the same anyway because everyone is doing instances and neither should be getting hit. If anything wizards have an easier time surviving with stone barrier should something go wrong.

However, in PvP, psychics require much more skill. Wizards uses some combination of FOW, sleep, sutra, undine followed by nukes. It's pretty much always the same thing. The only thing you have to know is the order to use them in. A pro psychic however needs to know when to alternate between black and white voodoo; which buffs/debuffs to use at which time because a few of them share the same cooldown; when to use stuff like soulburn and psychic will for maximum effect; when to all out nuke and when to use DoTs and turtle. The list goes on.

Personally, I've found it a lot more difficult to PvP on my psy because there are so many things to do and consider than just kamikaze nuke because that will get you killed. One of the main problems is timing as a lot of their buffs/debuffs last a very short time and using something like psychic will or soulburn at the wrong time can be very bad.

Bloop - Harshlands

If you haven't noticed the people making these topics are lowbies who don't have a single clue. Personally I'm still afraid of psychics because all of their skills look the same to me, they just have a different glow so I never know when I'm going to reflect myself to death. >_>

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

However, in PvP, psychics require much more skill. Wizards uses some combination of FOW, sleep, sutra, undine followed by nukes. It's pretty much always the same thing. The only thing you have to know is the order to use them in. A pro psychic however needs to know when to alternate between black and white voodoo; which buffs/debuffs to use at which time because a few of them share the same cooldown; when to use stuff like soulburn and psychic will for maximum effect; when to all out nuke and when to use DoTs and turtle. The list goes on.

sry but if u do allways same tactic with ur wizz then u will fail easier in pvp. wizz got alot alterntive tactic too.

Astrohawke - Lost City

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

sry but if u do allways same tactic with ur wizz then u will fail easier in pvp. wizz got alot alterntive tactic too.

Such as what?

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

Such as what?

depend from target, what class or is full buffed or no.
like 3rd spark+E.poison+genie spark+divine if unbuffed
if buffed seal +udine+sutra+divine+MS+gush+d.pyro
if high hp then try do 50-60% hp and after that a fast sutra with debuffs and nukes
if group then 3rd spark+spark pots+frenzy+bt/bids

etc etc allways situation/target depend.

Astrohawke - Lost City

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

depend from target, what class or is full buffed or no.
like 3rd spark+E.poison+genie spark+divine if unbuffed
if buffed seal +udine+sutra+divine+MS+gush+d.pyro
if high hp then try do 50-60% hp and after that a fast sutra with debuffs and nukes
if group then 3rd spark+spark pots+frenzy+bt/bids

etc etc allways situation/target depend.

How is that different to what I just said? All you did was add in sparks and genie skills which applies to every class. Everything else you suggested was basically some combination of FOW, sleep, sutra, undine followed by nukes. All you really have to consider is how much extra buffing/debuffing from skills/genie/pots/spark you need before you nuke them with your ultimates depending on how strong your target is.

Atherous - Sanctuary

ight so 29 pages....... ya im not reading all that.... so here is my take on this topic:

1st off the fish r evil and should b destroyed, that being said a psy has nothing that should worry a wizard, as long as the wizard plays smartly. okay so since the psy has a nasty bramble like buff that will literally kill wizards i have devised a evil lil plan that hasnt failed me duel or in pk (when the rare chance arises that a phy dares step out of SZ with me around)b:surrender

okay so since a phy can literally sit there and wait for us to kill ourselves with their buff, there is very few ways we can get around this and so far this is the only method i like.

1st use a stun (whisper works the best)

2nd use undine

3rd stun again FoW will do

4th if you have could eruption on your genie, spark, if not skip this b:surrender

5th use elemental shell (this is the most important step and one of the only ways to survive step 6)

6th and finally use blade tempest


nuff said..... dead and Q.Qin fishy b:victory

Astrohawke - Lost City

Only problem with that is you've spent all your time trying to set up BT and as soon as they see you casting it, they use psychic will to resist the damage then do whatever. Not to mention at some point along those steps, you're probably gonna be hit with a soul of stunning or soul of retaliation (or soul of silence if you're unlucky) which will mess you up.