Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?

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  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lit, you simply fail because you cannot seem to grasp that a veno simply does not need a herc to make a lot of coin in the game.

    What other way is there to make money besides grinding for 10 hours a day? I made 16m in a week doing twilight temple...not even hardcore playing. Please tell me anyone w/o herc who can do that without extreme no-lifing.

    But like I said, people without a herc don't understand...or don't want to because they can't afford one. ;o
  • vagrant0
    vagrant0 Posts: 290 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Veno is not a party tank. I don't care how good your herc is, let the barb do their role, and you do yours. Sure you can solo bosses. So what? You earn money, and ruin the prices for those items, so what? Is it fun to spam heal for 20-30+ mins per boss?

    A good veno, with a good assortment of matched skills and pets can be much more useful to a party than they can ever be acting as a tank. Running with a party, passing out sparks, debuffing bosses, pulling mobs is much more fun than any solo run. Furthermore, those venos are liked better by clerics, archers, barbs, bms, and wizards since they know their damn role and do it right without failure. Sure, you can make lots and lots of TT runs, but you also spent your rent money on a friggin game that you play solo. Personally, I'd rather keep a roof over my head, and suffer with the pleasure of working in a well organized group.

    As to the debate... I don't care how good you "think" your herc is. If you have an archer critting for every other hit, doing ranges between 10-30k, just from auto attack, you're losing agro. Even if you have nothing but attack skills on said herc, and spamming them, you'll still lose agro. As is most high level archers end up having to swap out for a lower bow at bosses unless the barb is decent, the same is also true for whenever anything other than a barb is used. And if this isn't happening, you're a friggin weak archer, sorry to break it to you. Disagree? Take it elsewhere.

    To answer the question of the thread, no. Veno's are not useless without a herc because the veno class is centered around debuffing, pulling, and indirect support. A herc, or any other really good tanking pet is merely just another tool that the veno can work with, just like their spells, just like their fox skills, just like their other pets, just like their genie, just like any other thing they might have that might add to their bag of tricks. A veno tank is like a veno DD caster. They might be able to do the job in some cases, but are usually surpassed by anyone else who is designed for that role. A veno with only a herc and a nix in their bag is simply just not using their character to their fullest. I've got 6 pets on my veno. Qingfu and Golem for tanking (always good to have a backup), kowlin for pulling and defense debuff on bosses, sawfly for air (swapped out for turtle I keep in bank for quests), a minkii with flesh ream, slow, attack debuff, and magic debuff for TW (fun to ambush with) and some bosses as an assist, and a deathknight just for giggles and scaring casters in the swamp. Didn't cost me more than a few mil (got lucky with kowlin), and while I cannot solo TT groupmode with this set, I have a broad range of options to fit most situations, and can use the various pet abilities to compliment my other skills. If I wanted to tank, I'd be on my barb. Venos are fun because they are so versatile when used right.

    Oh, and veno sparks + tanking barb = happy group who can finally let loose. If the party can kill faster without fear of stealing agro, the boss dies faster (faster still with all the debuffs that the veno can be using), meaning lower charm and repair costs. It's just better.
  • Damewort - Sanctuary
    Damewort - Sanctuary Posts: 573 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Players who know how to do their job well and how to get out of horrible situations are the best. You can be axe cleric or heavy wizard as long as you can do your role well. Venos with hercs are better when there isn't barb/cleric available or for situations where golem isn't enough.

    Barbs or BM are the best for tanking, if they know how and when to use aggro spells to keep aggro. It isn't serious that LA veno can steal aggro with weakest spells from higher lvl barb or BM.
    If a good barb/bm is available, then veno's role in squad is more like assisting one - pulling, cripling bosses, DD, saving clerics if needed. And for that role any skilled veno with good pets is enough.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    lol, can i be an arcane armor, bow wielding barbarian and tank ancient evil for you :D?
  • Damewort - Sanctuary
    Damewort - Sanctuary Posts: 573 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    lol, can i be an arcane armor, bow wielding barbarian and tank ancient evil for you :D?

    *shrugs from imagining arcane-bow barb's stats and skill point distribution* I would advice you to switch to LA at least... b:surrender
    I would use that kind of barb as DD, not tank. Don't pick up jobs you can't handle...
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    why not!? i can tank perfectly fine in human form!
  • Dirty_PEET - Sanctuary
    Dirty_PEET - Sanctuary Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    lol, can i be an arcane armor, bow wielding barbarian and tank ancient evil for you :D?

    Only an idiot mix-n-matches classes.... oh wait a sec, don't some venos use heavy armor and axes? and other go light armor? but then again being magic users the majority go robes as they should?? hmm... sounds like mix-n-matching to me.....
  • Damewort - Sanctuary
    Damewort - Sanctuary Posts: 573 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    sure, go ahead and try :) If you don't die in one or two blow without a heal (don't want to see dead cleric), then you can tank it :) If you somehow also manage to hold aggro too, then even better. If not, then let me go and assist you with meelee attacks from my magic sword. That would be a long and exciting boss whacking party!!!

    p.s.
    You have to provide cleric lot of mp powders. Otherwise he will be broke :(
  • Damewort - Sanctuary
    Damewort - Sanctuary Posts: 573 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Dirty_PEET - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Only an idiot mix-n-matches classes.... oh wait a sec, don't some venos use heavy armor and axes? and other go light armor? but then again being magic users the majority go robes as they should?? hmm... sounds like mix-n-matching to me.....

    not sure about HA and axe venos as I am not one and have a little knowledge about them.
    But about LA - it provides not too bad defense for both. Casters doesn't have that much hp to handle a lot of physical damage, so LA becomes handy as it gives some physical defense too and don't damage magic attack too much. LA isn't only for archers after all.

    If you can do your role in squad, then mix and experiment as much as you want... I wouldn't care less as long as I don't die because of you and get what I need.
  • FoxRunning - Heavens Tear
    FoxRunning - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    thank you for the backup. im getting really discouraged because of the growing number of nercs out there, and how, when people hear i dont have one, say, sorry, only want venos with hercs. talk about making you feel like you are worth less than b:fatb.
    b:sad
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lit, you simply fail because you cannot seem to grasp that a veno simply does not need a herc to make a lot of coin in the game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    (and hugs to Flauschkatze for the sig!)
    "Thanks for writing me-- it's always great to hear from a vet.

    -FrankieRaye"
    Playing here since '08b:heart
  • Holystic - Sanctuary
    Holystic - Sanctuary Posts: 81 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Rillien - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I know it's possible to solo heal on soulbanisher (with BB), but question--what in heaven's name did you do when soulbanisher starts his aoe? Can you explain a bit more what you did? How did you avoid aoe?
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    its not the tank youre looking out for, its the rest of the party, im assuming looking at your level, youve only done 1-1 squad.

    To answer both questions I did do this in 1-1 so there was no AOE. Tonight I will be trying to heal this in 1-3. I'm looking forward to this boss since almost everyone seems to want to skip it. After reading the comments from Rillien I can see why you would need BB. If I find any tricks or tips I'll PM you Rillien. The group I do most of these TT runs with do not have another cleric but I do have two wizards who can heal along side me if needed. So guess we will have to get inventive with this boss, but that's what I love about the group I'm in. They take risks and try new things. To OP, my group has 1 veno and she does not have a Herc, but she does everything we need her to do. She also runs around with a beetle pet. Groups like ours do exist but they aren't very common looks like. b:thanks
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    yes, 1-3's aoe is a btch :D
  • vagrant0
    vagrant0 Posts: 290 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Dirty_PEET - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Only an idiot mix-n-matches classes.... oh wait a sec, don't some venos use heavy armor and axes? and other go light armor? but then again being magic users the majority go robes as they should?? hmm... sounds like mix-n-matching to me.....
    Light armor is doable. Even heavy armor is doable if handled right and a melee build. But axes... no.

    Light armor is usually for hybrid builds, what they lose in dd power they gain in survivability. It also ends up encouraging them to branch out into some of the foxform skills, which can be rather good all things considered. Even if they do not spend a significant amount of spirit in the fox skills, every veno should pick up purge and amplify damage.

    Heavy armor ends up being a rather odd lot build since you can never use both armor at level, and weapon at level (since they can only transform with an arcane weapon held, and need it for all skills). But between the armor bonuses provided by fox form, their accuracy debuff, amplify damage, and reflect skills, they can still pull off the melee grind better than most the BMs out there. Since they have a pet, doubly so since they usually don't tank, or can go killing 2 at a time with a good pet.

    But axes... no. Not past level 14 or so unless they really like just killing things with auto attack.

    As for other "mixed" classes. Battle clerics can be rather nifty in pvp, but yeah, everyone else doesn't have much option unless they really want to suck hard. Tried doing a heavy armor wizard once (3 str, 3/4 dex, 1 1/4 mag)... fun for the first dozen levels or so, didn't get much further than that. Heavy armor archers are just asking to be hit with spells and have **** damage, arcane just simply does not work for barb or BM for a similar reason. Light armor though... Almost everyone can use to some degree (even if 10 levels lower) to make up for a lack in physical or magical def. Light armor wizards still suck rather greatly, but "can" work.

    Point is that Veno is really the only class that can use any of the armor types without ending up too gimp to do anything.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Dirty_PEET - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Only an idiot mix-n-matches classes.... oh wait a sec, don't some venos use heavy armor and axes? and other go light armor? but then again being magic users the majority go robes as they should?? hmm... sounds like mix-n-matching to me.....
    some people dont understand jokes..
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Literature - Harshlands wrote: »
    What other way is there to make money besides grinding for 10 hours a day? I made 16m in a week doing twilight temple...not even hardcore playing. Please tell me anyone w/o herc who can do that without extreme no-lifing.
    I've made 15 mil from Thursday to today's patch buying stuff off AH, converting it into chi stones, and selling them on a cat shop. Only took about 2-3 hours total for the 5 days searching the AH. Then I just left my cat shop to sell on a spare computer, while I goofed off and had fun playing with friends on my main computer. Heck, I still have maybe 3-4 mil worth of stones to sell (advice for anyone trying this: avoid the level 4-9 stones, people just don't know how much chi they give so are reluctant to buy them).

    Even before the genies, my cat shop selling regular stuff pulled in about 3-5 mil a week for ~10 minute's work per day. Frankly, I find your method of using your herc in TT to grind for mats to sell for coin to be horribly inefficient and time-consuming.

    There are lots of different ways to play or make money. If grinding in TT floats your boat, then good for you. But don't make the mistake of thinking that just because it works for you and you enjoy it, that it's the only way. Or even the best way.
  • Hisuna - Sanctuary
    Hisuna - Sanctuary Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    FoxRunning - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    thank you for the backup. im getting really discouraged because of the growing number of nercs out there, and how, when people hear i dont have one, say, sorry, only want venos with hercs. talk about making you feel like you are worth less than b:fatb.
    b:sad

    I didn't have a herc until level 79, and I always had far more than enough money. It doesn't require a herc to make lots of money. I'm not saying it's not the best tanking pet, for land anyway, and I certainly enjoy mine now that I have it, makes pve much easier and I can help with almost any boss now. *kicks krimson in the face* but before I had it I was still plenty useful, and certainly never short on cash.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The family is a haven in a heartless world.
    Once a Guardian, Always a Guardian. Element: Fire.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Hisuna - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I didn't have a herc until level 79, and I always had far more than enough money. It doesn't require a herc to make lots of money. I'm not saying it's not the best tanking pet, for land anyway, and I certainly enjoy mine now that I have it, makes pve much easier and I can help with almost any boss now. *kicks krimson in the face* but before I had it I was still plenty useful, and certainly never short on cash.
    ^ truth, i got my phoenix @82 or 83 cant remember after a week lol money making is easy as hell higher up
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I've made 15 mil from Thursday to today's patch buying stuff off AH, converting it into chi stones, and selling them on a cat shop. Only took about 2-3 hours total for the 5 days searching the AH. Then I just left my cat shop to sell on a spare computer, while I goofed off and had fun playing with friends on my main computer. Heck, I still have maybe 3-4 mil worth of stones to sell (advice for anyone trying this: avoid the level 4-9 stones, people just don't know how much chi they give so are reluctant to buy them).

    Even before the genies, my cat shop selling regular stuff pulled in about 3-5 mil a week for ~10 minute's work per day. Frankly, I find your method of using your herc in TT to grind for mats to sell for coin to be horribly inefficient and time-consuming.

    There are lots of different ways to play or make money. If grinding in TT floats your boat, then good for you. But don't make the mistake of thinking that just because it works for you and you enjoy it, that it's the only way. Or even the best way.

    K perfect stones go for 900 on HL so thats like 17000 you have to get from breaking down. You only get like 10 from 1 item. Tell us your secret of how you got 17000 of them and sold them all within a week.

    And to the person saying they soloed Krimson with a herc...stfu please. He is like Polearm in FB69.
  • Hisuna - Sanctuary
    Hisuna - Sanctuary Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Literature - Harshlands wrote: »
    K perfect stones go for 900 on HL so thats like 17000 you have to get from breaking down. You only get like 10 from 1 item. Tell us your secret of how you got 17000 of them and sold them all within a week.

    And to the person saying they soloed Krimson with a herc...stfu please. He is like Polearm in FB69.

    I'm going to go ahead and assume that last part is at me, and inform you that I never said that. I was kicking krimson because, after saying "almost any boss", I am still unable to do him. But I appreciate you making it unnecessary for me to return any kind of derogatory comeback. Have a nice day.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The family is a haven in a heartless world.
    Once a Guardian, Always a Guardian. Element: Fire.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Hisuna - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I'm going to go ahead and assume that last part is at me, and inform you that I never said that. I was kicking krimson because, after saying "almost any boss", I am still unable to do him. But I appreciate you making it unnecessary for me to return any kind of derogatory comeback. Have a nice day.
    usually if you ignore noobs like him/her they go away :O
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Lol how bout next time you say what you mean so theres no misunderstandings. =(

    And Tear stfu. You buy the battle pets then say you farmed it. Please explain how you lvled so fast + had time to farm a nix + herc. Lame.
  • ADvEnTcUrSe - Sanctuary
    ADvEnTcUrSe - Sanctuary Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    I think everyone should just calm down

    venos can do just fine without a herc, take there pet plus a barb and your good. It worked before hercs came out and it works after. It may not be as efficient, but I'm sure there are many people who do it no problem

    as for clerics, ya it helps a ton to have a mp charm we do go through mana like none other ha. But we do not have the money problems everyone seems to think we ha. . (hint, don't buy potions, mobs drop more then enough)
  • swgs
    swgs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So, I saw a World Chat shout the other day, screaming for anyone who could help do a boss to come and assist with it. I, also needing the boss, volunteered my services, and was asked if I had a Herc, when I informed him that no, I did not, I was promptly ignored. This is not the only time I have a seen Venos without Hercs being treated like ****. Everywhere I look, I see people shouting for "Veno with Herc!" What gives? I know, it's the best tank in the entire game, I know that it's capable of doing pretty much 99% of the bosses, but still, why the hell would you ignore anyone trying to help, regardless of if they have Herc or not?

    Would you do the same for the other classes? "Oh, look, a Wizard without full TT, YUCK! Let's leave him alone", or "Ew... a Non Tiger-Form barb, let's ignore the crappy tanker.", or "A cleric without Charm, Do not WANT."

    The sad part is, I know a few people already are guilty of doing these things. What the bloody Hell, people? Just because we don't play the game the way you think we should play it suddenly means that we aren't worth your time? If you're so God damned good at this game, why the Hell did you ask for help in the first place? If someone volunteers to help you after you've asked for help, don't pick apart what they have, or don't have. You don't know a damn thing about how they play. Obviously, if they offered to help you, they're probably a decent person, and since they're not QQing and whining for help, they're probably a decent player. Hell, I've seen things done better by players that defied the standards than the ones that are exactly the same as everyone else.

    It just disgusts me how some you are so wrapped up in the "Standards of PW" that you ignore those who don't fit the molds. Veno doesn't mean Herc. Clerics are not just your healing slaves. Barbs aren't just there to have the **** beat out of them and do very little damage.

    And just FYI? I party with Charmless Clerics all the time. The ones who don't carry charms are usually good enough to carry the powders to make up for it.

    But it seems like some people wouldn't even give them the chance. And, yeah. I am not happy about that. I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but at this point, if I can get even one person to stop and think about how they play, it'll all be worth it.

    When I do bosses/FB/HH, I do not care who comes with me, all I need is some DDs. If I pick, venos are my first choice, one veno works like 2 DDs, and veno + their pet can do more damages then any one else. they can also amp/lure or help me heal my pet when needed. but the clerics are different, they will need to blue bubble and red bubble, if they do not have a charm, it will be difficult for a long fight, I do take charmless cleric with me to do HH, even they do not have a charm, they are usually my second choice just behind venos, but I see them as a DD most of the time, they may be able to bubble with pots, but I want a cleric with a charm to bubble, so I do not need to worry if the cleric will run out of mana.
  • SunHawk - Heavens Tear
    SunHawk - Heavens Tear Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Ok i will admit that hercs are awsome in some ways but i gotta be honest..they cant keep agro for ****! I have a high lv tank and while in TT's i have found it is easyer for a well raised golem to steal my agro then a herc. I have also seen venos aoe with hercs which iv seen is effect the issue being as i said they cannot keep agro. Its funny honestly. I will see a veno take on like 8 mobs and 3 of them will trail off; she has to run while makeing her herc try to grab them back. Ok heres the thing i agree with the use of multiple pets because I personally like wolves (and the kowling) style pets. If you find a good elite wolf it tanks just fine. Also they are very fast that is why i like them. I have a mythical wolfkin on my veno and he moves 8.7 m/sec so when i mob with him he can easly catch mobs that run off, before they reach me. And as was said spend cash on that pet. (which in the end is cheaper then a herc) it makes up for it. As long as one raised it and kept its moves up. I also laughed when i found out that a veno with a herc was with another veno (yes it was raised) and they duel healed it for krimson. Guess what ppl it died!b:laugh .The only thing i hate is ppl seem to think one NEEDs a herc. COME ON PPL use you minds! WTH do you think ppl did before hercs even came into the game. I mean come on! The lvs were already up to at least 80 think of all the TTs and Bosses that were done before hercs even came into to play. Im not saying its a sucky pet im just saying ONE SHOULDNT HAVE THE MIND SET THAT YOU NEED IT! And come on $200 serously!? For a pet lol. Venos can get boring but honestly where is the challenge and fun if one gets a herc? If your gonna get one since they can take on higher lv mobs just get one at higher lvs. I mean honestly where is the fun if you get it at the begining of the game. And for those wondering yes there will be better and diffrent pets. That parrot on the backround aint just for looks b:laugh i have seen that later there will be this litte minature dragon and that parrot(no jk) but sorry idk their stats. I enjoy my beast pets eventhough they may not be the best they get the job done and make it fun for me and thats what counts. Some ppl are just better with certain types of pets. I had a friend who sold her kowling cause she felt her golem was better :). Oh and question can you even teach a herc skills other then what it currently has? In the long run wouldnt that make it eventually out of date? oh PS i was on my veno and out of the goodness of my heart i helped another veno heal her herc for hog king. 1) that herc would have died without me helping her duel heal it 2) she was getting attacked and i sent my wolf after the mobs cause hes fast 3) the bish didnt even say thank you she just flew off.... Last comment why do so many venos with hercs get an ego(and dont get all huffy i said many not all)...
  • Oldbear - Sanctuary
    Oldbear - Sanctuary Posts: 486 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Sometimes venos without Hercs are just venos without Hercs. It doesn't affect my gameplay, so what if they are?
  • Venomeow - Sanctuary
    Venomeow - Sanctuary Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Hmm its not really a thing to QQ over. I don't have a herc <yet> and I've done fine all these levels without a magmite. Sure sometimes it's inconvenient that I can't tank bosses, but you can always find ways to get around that. b:chuckle

    Venos without nixes on the otherhand, are pretty much useless in pvp. b:cry
  • Tiaque - Sanctuary
    Tiaque - Sanctuary Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Everyone makes assumptions about certain classes - to the majority, a barb is not a barb unless he goes tiger. Clerics need to be charmed. Axe is the best path a BM could take. Wizards suck unless they're 90+. Venomancers are useless unless they have a herc...

    Unfortunately, due to everyone conforming to the above stereotypes, everyone else can't see the value of what they mock. Want some examples?

    A level 60 veno solos TT1-1 at level 60, then goes on to solo a good chunck of FB69 at level 68....with a shadou cub.

    Single healer for a TT60 squad run: level 43 cleric, with base 3 vit and no MP charm

    Who needs 60+ help for Krixxix? I did it on my 33 FIST blademaster, with a 33 cleric healing me, and no outside help.

    Level 48 barb tanking Jewels with a completely on-level party (highest member: 52 archer)

    I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture...
    "In the end, its not about LA vs robe - which is better? Its about knowing your character and how to play it." ~Blosque, Sanctuary

    Director of Tsunami
    Contact me in-game if you're looking for a new home!

    Ayjia (5x veno), Celys (4x full support cleric), Eirel (3x claw blademaster)
  • Ninnuam - Sanctuary
    Ninnuam - Sanctuary Posts: 1,086 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Lol seriously, what's with the hate? Yes, herc-less venos get the job done. They can amp, purge, they can pull and they can pass sparks to the tanking barb. Those with herc can do all that, plus tank a good number of bosses. What's wrong with that?

    Personally, when doing a TT run I LOVE having a herc veno. If we don't I'll usually log mine. For one, it makes the fight go WAY faster, the reflect damage is like having an extra dd. Barbs save on the repair bill, clerics use half the mana they would with a barb tank (for comparison, under 200k for a 2-2 run whereas they'd use 400k+ easily with a barb tanking all the bosses). Of course, barb tanks the bosses a herc can't; SB, percussion, cosmo, wurlord come to mind.

    Also, there is no way in hell ANYONE can pull aggro from a herc on "?" bosses. Two reasons: 1) pets don't suffer the 75% damage reduction that players do. 2) reflect damage
    Granted, an archer/wiz can and will pull aggro on normal bosses, but that's not hercs fault, it's theirs. Either lower your dps, or have a barb tank.
    b:dirty
  • Venomeow - Sanctuary
    Venomeow - Sanctuary Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Ninnuam - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Lol seriously, what's with the hate? Yes, herc-less venos get the job done. They can amp, purge, they can pull and they can pass sparks to the tanking barb. Those with herc can do all that, plus tank a good number of bosses. What's wrong with that?

    Personally, when doing a TT run I LOVE having a herc veno. If we don't I'll usually log mine. For one, it makes the fight go WAY faster, the reflect damage is like having an extra dd. Barbs save on the repair bill, clerics use half the mana they would with a barb tank (for comparison, under 200k for a 2-2 run whereas they'd use 400k+ easily with a barb tanking all the bosses). Of course, barb tanks the bosses a herc can't; SB, percussion, cosmo, wurlord come to mind.

    Also, there is no way in hell ANYONE can pull aggro from a herc on "?" bosses. Two reasons: 1) pets don't suffer the 75% damage reduction that players do. 2) reflect damage
    Granted, an archer/wiz can and will pull aggro on normal bosses, but that's not hercs fault, it's theirs. Either lower your dps, or have a barb tank.

    Agreed. My magmite pulls aggro from sage barbs in 2-2 even without the skills. >.>

    For my TT squads: veno with herc, second healer veno (optional), barb tank. Most efficient ever. :D
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    I did just fine all the way to level 75 with just my crystaline magmite. Tanked tons of bosses and pulled tons of monsters with him.

    A hercules is better of course but that does not mean a veno is worthless without one. Barbs are much better tanks than a herc can ever hope to be
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
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