Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

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  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    This is going around and around, and I don't know who to respond to any longer...

    ...but I like it. People are talking more and more about real life pvp situations and applying more thought.

    @Badazmofo; the reason you are likely to find more fail sages is that a sage can only really shine in a high-end pvp situation. Since you're on Dreamweaver, come find me. I know of one demon archer who can beat me reliably (Dragoonz), and another demon who can almost beat me reliably (Merangeleus). It goes without saying that the one who can beat me reliably is 98%-ish of the way to a warsoul, and the other one has 16k HP. I know of one sage archer who can beat me reliably (chezedude).

    Archers 89-99 will be a grab bag of both good and bad for both paths. I guess my argument was about high level end-game archers, because I fight them the most and have the most experience with them.

    Also, there is some truth to what you're saying about regular shots and take aim, after stun. To be honest, I don't use take aim unless I see a demon (or sage) spark, WoG, AD, or if I'm incredibly patient (rarely) after an IG wears out; the awesomeness of both is that you can be charging a shot for nearly the entire duration of their spark and one-shot them before they can even start their attack. The skill is great, if used appropriately.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I'm not 100% sure why sage archers always resort to saying they beat demon archers 1v1. Even if a sage archer can consistently beat a demon archer 1v1 there are 7 other classes. It's such narrow-minded thinking that just because you can beat a demon archer sage is better.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    that is assumeing a 1v1 if your in group pvp you realy think your gonna be aloud to channle and cast take aim? also if you have a +10 its easyer to just stun > shoot for 4 sec you would probly come out with more dmg in the long run

    i use take aim in world pvp, tw, and 1v1 in cube... and have no trouble going the full chan time. and no **** i'll do more damage if i use regular shots instead of take aim overall. but in pvp i aim to kill and move on... not to tick charm and recovery my target's hp for him.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    @Kiyoshi then you have been very lucky in your pvping so far if i saw you stun and start channeling a nuke on one of my buddys i would stun you and start shooting you up and by time you come outta stun my buddy should be out also so now you have 2ppl to deal with this was what i was trying to get across.

    @Illyana i would love to pk with you but i already know how it would end lol. Your better geared with higher lvl skills and more exp in pk. I barely have lvl 10 of most skills let alone the demon version of them (i blame packs they take all my moneys QQ) the skills i do have at lvl 10 are the expensive ones to get. but even with my crappy gear and my under lvled skills i still manage to kill ppl in pvp no i dont mean just lower lvls i mean ppl who are 89+ ive killed lvl 95s and even a few lvl 100s the only reason ive been able to do that is because of my demon spark and i honestly dont see how a person with my gear and skills would be able to kill higher lvls with a sage spark (note if you still wanna pk ill give it a shot but imma glass cannon in every sence of the word i have like 3.6k hp atm so youll most likely just 1 shot me lol)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Lu$t - Sanctuary
    Lu$t - Sanctuary Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    @Kiyoshi then you have been very lucky in your pvping so far if i saw you stun and start channeling a nuke on one of my buddys i would stun you and start shooting you up and by time you come outta stun my buddy should be out also so now you have 2ppl to deal with this was what i was trying to get across.

    @Illyana i would love to pk with you but i already know how it would end lol. Your better geared with higher lvl skills and more exp in pk. I barely have lvl 10 of most skills let alone the demon version of them (i blame packs they take all my moneys QQ) the skills i do have at lvl 10 are the expensive ones to get. but even with my crappy gear and my under lvled skills i still manage to kill ppl in pvp no i dont mean just lower lvls i mean ppl who are 89+ ive killed lvl 95s and even a few lvl 100s the only reason ive been able to do that is because of my demon spark and i honestly dont see how a person with my gear and skills would be able to kill higher lvls with a sage spark (note if you still wanna pk ill give it a shot but imma glass cannon in every sence of the word i have like 3.6k hp atm so youll most likely just 1 shot me lol)

    3.6k? O.o wth XD do you socket garnets? lol im purepure dex(3 vit) with refines +3-4 and i have 5.6 unbuffed which is still considered low. stop wasting cash on packs >_> lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero~
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I was actuly wrong with hp i have less than that atm http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=93d1b85d5aacf885 this is what im going for http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8dc6b04a0b213182 refines are only +2 cuz i wanted it to be as relistic as possible for me +4 or +5 isnt being relistic when considering the amount of cash i have available atm. Ill be restating that vit and mag yes i was one of the dummys who stated mag cuz i got tired of running outta mp while useing the starter wings the str is where its at so i can use the FC gold fist which i intend to get at some point in time. I may or maynot restat the str at 99 havent decided yet guess it depends on if im rich enough to afford lunar claws but of course i would get the bow first
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Tinaaaaaa - Lost City
    Tinaaaaaa - Lost City Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Uhhh helm of pirate? Do not use that, you need way too much str, and it has no good stats lol, If you want that much str, get a warsoul helm at least lol.
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    i got the helm cuz i figured i already had the str to use it since i was gearing to use the FC gold fist i figured why not go with the highest lvl helm i can equip this is the one i could afford the warsoul helm costs way to much for me atm but the + dex on it is nice to have since i already gimped my dex so in my eyes the helm was the best choice cuz it would help me to maintain my bow dmg a bit better than it was, the mold was cheap and i already met the str req to use it
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    I'm not 100% sure why sage archers always resort to saying they beat demon archers 1v1. Even if a sage archer can consistently beat a demon archer 1v1 there are 7 other classes. It's such narrow-minded thinking that just because you can beat a demon archer sage is better.

    I have used that comparison because it seemed like a fair comparison.

    I do not see how this can be very relevant to anything, nor how it can help you, but I have killed members of every class (and been killed by...).
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I was actuly wrong with hp i have less than that atm http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=93d1b85d5aacf885 this is what im going for http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8dc6b04a0b213182 refines are only +2 cuz i wanted it to be as relistic as possible for me +4 or +5 isnt being relistic when considering the amount of cash i have available atm.

    In the past, I was able to get +3 with about 37 tries on average, but I think they lowered the probability on gamble refines so now I think I need 52 tries on average for +3. Still, 52 celestones is not outrageously expensive -- if you are level 100 you get 50 from some of your bounty hunts and you can probably buy that many for a price not too far different from the price of a pack.
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    when i do my OHT daily i actuly usualy end up with a 3* item after i craft it but so far ive use 100+ mirages and +3 is the highest ive gotten that damn bow... -_- and i didnt get that till yesterday
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    im sorry but you did it to your self i now have to call you fail.... kids dont try that^ in pk youll just get a free trip to town

    kids with that i 1hit a 7k hp archer without problems if its crit (~30% chance) without rank8 weapon if target is unbuffed another side its kinda theory if u talk about qs work in most of time, i can do that with fast take aim and after stun over i just fall down and got nearly 1 spark. (about take aim most of time usefull when target hp is around 50% but dont tell to others b:chuckle [ofc situation depend cause full buffed target is not really easy])
    also if you have a +10 its easyer to just stun > shoot for 4 sec you would probly come out with more dmg in the long run

    true but who want tick the hiero? not that point same like sin with sage cod vs demon interval. (and y with same **** gear than mine i often 2hited (ofc with genie debuffs) the self buffed archers what was mostly demon, ofc not really usefull for high refine full buffed archers but u dont wear it everytime+debuff from weapon also cool :P)
    I'm not 100% sure why sage archers always resort to saying they beat demon archers 1v1. Even if a sage archer can consistently beat a demon archer 1v1 there are 7 other classes. It's such narrow-minded thinking that just because you can beat a demon archer sage is better.

    have some term where sage got advantage and few case where got disadvantage vs class, but this changeing in time when u get interval or refined gear etc etc.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    @Kiyoshi then you have been very lucky in your pvping so far if i saw you stun and start channeling a nuke on one of my buddys i would stun you and start shooting you up and by time you come outta stun my buddy should be out also so now you have 2ppl to deal with this was what i was trying to get across.

    Lets just assume that i stun your buddy and you stun me... and how do i have 2 people to deal with? if its group pvp... won't it make sense that i'll also have a friend or more. WTF are they doing when you are stunning and attacking me?
    In group pvp... there is little to no chance you'll have the time to react to your buddy being stunned... scan the battlefield to see who is the stunner... then scan it again to see who is channeling a nuke... then select the target... then stun the target yourself. Archer stun has a 1.5s chan and .6s cast... while my take aim has a 3s chan and .6s cast. which mean you'll have 1.5 seconds to do all of that (that is if i am already in your range... if not you'll have to run into range) before i fire off my take aim... and score the kill (pending a crit).
    also keep in mind that i can fire off my take aim anytime i want (at a reduced damage). a good archer will time the attack depending on the enemy's hp and conditions. Such as I can fire off my take aim early if i notice my teammate attacked the same target and lowered its hp... to that i will not need the full channel time.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    @shadow Ok unless you post a SS of this then i call bs and untill you post on your main i dismiss any and all further arguments from you and consider you to be just trolling. Anyone else who has presented a valid argument has done it from their main so i would expect the same from you. If you do post from your main i will consider a counter arguement but untill then im just ignoreing you

    @Kiyoshi to be honest we can sit here all day doing this i can say "oh well i just domained him what are you going to do now" this argument cant and wont end cuz there are too many variables that can happen like what if your stun misses? What if your take aim misses? What if i was going to attack you anyway? See there are just to many things to consider and to many points and counter points we can try to make. I say we just give this a rest there is no sence in argueing over whats could happen in a theoretical situation like this one. When i posted origanaly i was just trying to show you that your stradigy may not work but since it is your stradigy you will most likely continue to argue for it but i dont have time to spend the next couple hours argueing on the forums, I would rather type this exeptionaly long statement and go and finish gathering the herbs and stuff ill need for TW later tonight.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Alphawing - Harshlands
    Alphawing - Harshlands Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Barbs should be able to be girls, and Venomancers should be able to be guys.

    Also relating to Barbs and Venomancers, their true forms have a big problem.
    If you choose the Tiger Barb, then your true form should be a Tiger, but if u chose the wolf then it should be a wolf, same for panda and lion. And if a veno chooses something other then the fox look, then their true form should change and vary as well.
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    0.0 ok 3 things.... 1. horribly off topic.... 2. wrong section..... 3. there are several of those threads go post there
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ya I have to say tho, using Take Aim in mass PK is totally legit and you'll get away with it more times than not - unless you do it in the open with no teammates with you or something ie: acting like a jackass. Same thing with sparking and barraging. Otherwise, how would you play a wizard in TW?

    Regarding covering a teammate, it happens a lot more and it's a lot easier if your teammate was attacked by a melee or a veno. This is why archers and wizards are win in TW (Jone's Blessing or no).
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    @Kiyoshi to be honest we can sit here all day doing this i can say "oh well i just domained him what are you going to do now" this argument cant and wont end cuz there are too many variables that can happen like what if your stun misses? What if your take aim misses? What if i was going to attack you anyway? See there are just to many things to consider and to many points and counter points we can try to make. I say we just give this a rest there is no sence in argueing over whats could happen in a theoretical situation like this one. When i posted origanaly i was just trying to show you that your stradigy may not work but since it is your stradigy you will most likely continue to argue for it but i dont have time to spend the next couple hours argueing on the forums, I would rather type this exeptionaly long statement and go and finish gathering the herbs and stuff ill need for TW later tonight.

    LOL... i am pointing this out only cause you said take aim for archer is fail... but its actually one of the better skill combos. first of all... any attack can miss... if my stun/take aim miss... i'll do the same thing i do when my regular shot misses... CONTINUE TO ATTACK. and if you was going to attack/stun me... you're going to attack and stun me regardless of what attack i use... might as well use the highest damage attack to ensure my kill. Its not a matter of theoretical situations or not... its a matter of take aim being the highest damage archer damaging skills.
    The logic behind it is the same as that of a wizard when he decides to use bids... instead of that card throwing ****. the card throwing **** will only tick my charm at best... while black ice is gonna nuke the **** out of me.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    LOL... i am pointing this out only cause you said take aim for archer is fail... but its actually one of the better skill combos. first of all... any attack can miss... if my stun/take aim miss... i'll do the same thing i do when my regular shot misses... CONTINUE TO ATTACK. and if you was going to attack/stun me... you're going to attack and stun me regardless of what attack i use... might as well use the highest damage attack to ensure my kill. Its not a matter of theoretical situations or not... its a matter of take aim being the highest damage archer damaging skills.
    The logic behind it is the same as that of a wizard when he decides to use bids... instead of that card throwing ****. the card throwing **** will only tick my charm at best... while black ice is gonna nuke the **** out of me.


    Flawed logic.


    Wizards it makes sence because their only attacks are through their skills. Unless you see a wizard hacking at you with a sword.



    Archers, well, we deal more damage with regular shots and criticals over time than we do with skills (except for maybe heavy melee classes - even then with BM regular shots will be better than metal attacks if a BM makes the mistake of using Alter Marrow magic.)


    Take aim is 500% of weapon damage.


    Our highest damaging skill is deadly shot, but in the amount of time it takes you to channel and cast it - you can deal more damage with regular shots.


    Really only a handful of skills are viable in PvP:

    1. Sharpened Tooth Arrow (Hidden Opener)
    2. Stunning Arrow (When they realize their being hit)
    3. Quickshot - Demon Proc
    4. Thundershock (reduce metal defence)
    5. Lightning Strike (Demon Never misses)
    6. Bloodvow (bad idea if they have you targetted)
    7. Wings of Grace (Invincibility and Immune to stuns)
    8. Winged Shell (anti-1 shot shield - nearly)


    Its better if you spend time channelling sharpened tooth than it is to channel take aim as an opener. Reducing HP by 16% to 20% is a clear winner.


    Stunning arrow interrupts casting and prevents attacking (wow, you can survive a mage nuke because you stunned them).


    Quickshot for demons can increase attack rate by 30%. If it doesn't the small bonus damage is okay.


    Thundershock to reduce metal defence on heavies is important. It can make or break a charm tick.


    Lightning Strike - relatively low cast and channel time to deal a decent amount of magic damage to heavies.


    Bloodvow - your guild will love it when you cast this on a catapult puller.


    With that said, most of the viable PvP skills archers use benefit more from the demon path than the Sage.




    Most of the attacks in PvP will be normal attacks as fast as possible (demon favored.)











    And I know some rediculous person is going to bring up Barrage. In which case its been clearly pointed out that the animation is a clear give-away. Thus the idea is to deal as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time before someone stuns you to break barrage.


    Demon's 2.5 seconds inbetween volleys is better than the Sage counterpart.
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Its better if you spend time channelling sharpened tooth than it is to channel take aim as an opener. Reducing HP by 16% to 20% is a clear winner.

    u really sharp every low hp cleric/arche/veno/psy?

    i prefer better vs not high refined low hp ppls because lets say need 4-5 shot with hiero tick and they got time for another def skill till from far rage a crit with take aim maybe 1hit. i said situation depend, ofc i dont start take aim a barb or a archer with 10k hp with buff, point is the surprise attack, stun+take aim could be deadly for low hp's and obviously for high hp's need different techniq and can use instant like vigor gainer if u got enough time and need only a bit vigor for something.
  • Ecatomb - Harshlands
    Ecatomb - Harshlands Posts: 139 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    @shadow Ok unless you post a SS of this then i call bs and untill you post on your main i dismiss any and all further arguments from you and consider you to be just trolling. Anyone else who has presented a valid argument has done it from their main so i would expect the same from you. If you do post from your main i will consider a counter arguement but untill then im just ignoreing you
    He got lvl100 archer on european server. But only nob character on this server ... like me :D
    ecatomb.net/pwi/

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  • fulgida
    fulgida Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Really only a handful of skills are viable in PvP:

    ...
    Most of the attacks in PvP will be normal attacks as fast as possible (demon favored.)

    This really depends.

    But I have used archer skills in PvP that you have not listed, and been successful. I have landed some -- perhaps most -- of my PvP kills using only archer skills which you have not listed (and no normal attacks).

    Please do not blame me if you can not figure out how to use them.
  • Islamey - Dreamweaver
    Islamey - Dreamweaver Posts: 586 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    sage is better than demon archers because of 5 aps fists.
    go ask chezedude -.-
    Who even cares about range anymore.
    The PvP nowadays is Occult Ice + Regular Attack.
    The chillum is sometimes referred to as a chalice, based on a quote from the Biblical book of Deuteronomy. Thanks and praises are offered to Jah before smoking the chillum.
  • MystiMonk - Sanctuary
    MystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Another Archer rant thread all you need is hell.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    fulgida wrote: »
    This really depends.

    But I have used archer skills in PvP that you have not listed, and been successful. I have landed some -- perhaps most -- of my PvP kills using only archer skills which you have not listed (and no normal attacks).

    Please do not blame me if you can not figure out how to use them.


    If your using DoT's please get off of this thread... You clearly dont know how to PvP if you are.

    Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »
    u really sharp every low hp cleric/arche/veno/psy?

    i prefer better vs not high refined low hp ppls because lets say need 4-5 shot with hiero tick and they got time for another def skill till from far rage a crit with take aim maybe 1hit. i said situation depend, ofc i dont start take aim a barb or a archer with 10k hp with buff, point is the surprise attack, stun+take aim could be deadly for low hp's and obviously for high hp's need different techniq and can use instant like vigor gainer if u got enough time and need only a bit vigor for something.


    Depends. Yes you may not choose to use sharpened on low HP characters.


    But bear this in mind, if your not opening with stunning arrow otherwise you can be sealed. As an archer you need time to kill them. Time you dont have if your battling their charms. Magic classes which can nuke can and will nuke you if you cant kill them fast enough.


    Sharpened Tooth makes 5000hp become 4200, and subsequently means that you only have to deal with a minimum of 2100 HP extra after a charm tick. Thats a whole 2900 HP you've taken off with just sharpened tooth alone on a 5000 hp target. In the proccess you might have reduced the HP of a whole bunch of people (bunched up group of people in TW's)



    But honestly, end game nobody has low HP besides the hyper oraclers and frosters who made it to 100 on level 70~80 gear.



    End game characters usually come decked out with HH99, CV95, Nirvana, Event Gear that is refined (moderately - commonly +3 to +6), with Immaculate Shards or better (Savants, Gems, or Defence Stones).


    Which gives them decent HP (5000~7000+), and defence. Against archers you'll never know when you'll make that next hit. Even with 2 CV rings +100% accuracy you can still miss 5 shots in a row without the archer evasion buff.


    With Genies, pots, and charms, all classes have a considerable amount of HP that you need to eliminate end-game. Thus unless your fighting people who have vastly inferior gear, you might want to think about how you open in a fight.
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Depends. Yes you may not choose to use sharpened on low HP characters.

    But bear this in mind, if your not opening with stunning arrow otherwise you can be sealed. As an archer you need time to kill them. Time you dont have if your battling their charms. Magic classes which can nuke can and will nuke you if you cant kill them fast enough.
    Sharpened Tooth makes 5000hp become 4200, and subsequently means that you only have to deal with a minimum of 2100 HP extra after a charm tick. Thats a whole 2900 HP you've taken off with just sharpened tooth alone on a 5000 hp target. In the proccess you might have reduced the HP of a whole bunch of people (bunched up group of people in TW's)
    But honestly, end game nobody has low HP besides the hyper oraclers and frosters who made it to 100 on level 70~80 gear.

    End game characters usually come decked out with HH99, CV95, Nirvana, Event Gear that is refined (moderately - commonly +3 to +6), with Immaculate Shards or better (Savants, Gems, or Defence Stones).
    Which gives them decent HP (5000~7000+), and defence. Against archers you'll never know when you'll make that next hit. Even with 2 CV rings +100% accuracy you can still miss 5 shots in a row without the archer evasion buff.
    With Genies, pots, and charms, all classes have a considerable amount of HP that you need to eliminate end-game. Thus unless your fighting people who have vastly inferior gear, you might want to think about how you open in a fight.

    sure its target depend but when u got time is worth.and with stun+genie debuff [and 3rd spark if possible but then need ~399 chi at start then u can do wing of grace after take aim if needed] ofc what give enough time/initial damage for take aim but ofc in few situation u can have time for 3rd spark+sharp stun+take aim and if u are lucky u dont must care with hiero but this is not a recipe to every situation, again situation depend . situation this is situation depend like everything, only what i want say is take aim usefull in few situation so its on usefull skill list for more ppl.

    (still normal shot too cause few ppl can use antistun pot and stun/sleep u if they dont died in time) etc etc.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    1. Sharpened Tooth Arrow (Hidden Opener)
    2. Stunning Arrow (When they realize their being hit)
    3. Quickshot - Demon Proc
    4. Thundershock (reduce metal defence)
    5. Lightning Strike (Demon Never misses)
    6. Bloodvow (bad idea if they have you targetted)
    7. Wings of Grace (Invincibility and Immune to stuns)
    8. Winged Shell (anti-1 shot shield - nearly)

    I'll agree with this list, but I'd add a couple.
    Wingspan - when coupled post-spark, it is possible to 1-hit people; best used in crowded areas of course
    Aim Low - perfect PvP skill for those who would run away or attempt to kite you.
    Elven Alacrity - a perfect retreat for when you've been swarmed
    Thunderous Blast - Group kills! In Tw, use this at towers and crystals for maximum effect.

    There are some sage specific skills that are added to the PvP arsenal:
    1. Frost Arrow (used between anti-metal genie skills and as an opener to fist BM distal targets)
    2. Deadly Shot (used primarily on wizards who distance-shrink to receive 1/2 damage)

    I would generally be adverse to adding Blood Vow to anyone but a stationary catapult barb.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Another Archer rant thread all you need is hell.

    Another archer rant thread? This was THE archer rant thread thank you very much. b:bye
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Our highest damaging skill is deadly shot, but in the amount of time it takes you to channel and cast it - you can deal more damage with regular shots.

    First question for you... have you even hit 90 yet? Any idoit should know that take aim does more damage then deadly shot with a decent refined 9x weapon. Demon deadly shot does 500 more damage then sage deadly shot... so i'll even use that as a comparsion to my sage take aim.

    demon deadly shot = base + 100% weapon + 5.8k + 500
    sage take aim = base + 500% weapon

    lets see... my base is about 10-14k.. so lets assume 12k and my cv gives about 2.1-2.3k... so lets just assume 2.2

    with demon deadly i would have 12k + 2.2 + 5.8 + 500 = 20.5k
    and with sage take aim i would have 12k + 5(2.2) = 23k

    and of course regular shot deal more damage... but getting the kill is more important then dealing damage. ticking charm is a waste of damage since that just make your work so much longer. you... or aleast i like to kill my target without being annoyed by charms.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur Posts: 1,842 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    . . . I don't know how it happened but apparently a pre-requisite to being an archer on pwi is to be half or almost completely **** . . . Here is a quick test to see if you qualify for this guide: What level is your poison arrow? If you didn't say 1 please keep reading . . . I'll outline the basic ideas for pve and for pvp, list several telltale signs of failure and rant while I fly world quest . . . After being in a guild with several potential non-fail archer's . . . Frost arrow is teh **** against heavies - No it isn't ****. You have 3 god damn metal attacks for pvp already. That's almost more than a cleric. Use them. If you wanna throw 25 chi worth of minimal water damage at the opponent that's your prerogative. Seriously, you really wanna waste a quarter of a fury on a little amount of damage? . . . You are pure dex for the crit rate (you are pure dex right?) this is how you do your damage. Crits. If archers didn't crit 5 times in 3 attacks they would be like warriors with bacon axes. That's right, you suck . . . If they don't **** or even consider my points and are still on heaven's nuts then I tune them out after that . . . Aka hell fury. Seriously those two words are almost enough for you to snap out of your state of retardation to talk to mo zun (demon guide u nub) instead of the *** with the dress . . . When you open zhen you have bunch of blue **** which eerily look like arrows pointing at you saying: "STUN THIS FGT" . . . This is annoying. 2m isn't anything. Stop arguing like it is. Basically I tell people this: get to 88, use the 88 bow, **** now . . .No archer on this server should have this helmet. It is one of the first signs that you are doing something wrong. Class participation time: What is the str requirement for that terrible helmet? If you said 101 congrats you can subtract. That's right level 101 is the earliest you should wear this helmet. If you have it on now I'm sure you can sell it to another 7x archer who hasn't read this yet . . . No no nooo please tell me how you can pvp with this build. At 90 you are sacrificing a huge chunk of your damage to tank more damage. Are we in the werebeast forums? No. In pvp you are meant to kill things, not fly around tanking 4 people, you aren't pandora - you don't even have blink . . . I really wanna rename this build as 'I'm not bad enough to go pure vit - I'm worse.' . . . Ugh, writing sucks.
    changelog:
    42709 - started qq on heaven/hell
    42909 - qq'd about builds


    OMG, I lmfao. Rage much? Please come to Archo and join Narla. Our faction chat is waaaaay tooooo sleepy lately.

    P.S.: You sound like some of the people telling me to shard garnets b:chuckle
    "And as for bragging, I don't need to brag. I am famous, yo. My accomplishments are legendary. I am BLOODMYSTIC, speaker of truth, bane of the Barbarians of Impulse, slayer of the **** of Narla, liberator of all the free peoples of the Archosaur server, former master propagandist for our leader in freedom, Proski, and Archtroll of the PWI Forums. And now? Amiable pve wizard, beloved by all, aka BLUEMYSTIC. Pleased to make your acquaintance."
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    First question for you... have you even hit 90 yet? Any idoit should know that take aim does more damage then deadly shot with a decent refined 9x weapon. Demon deadly shot does 500 more damage then sage deadly shot... so i'll even use that as a comparsion to my sage take aim.

    demon deadly shot = base + 100% weapon + 5.8k + 500
    sage take aim = base + 500% weapon

    lets see... my base is about 10-14k.. so lets assume 12k and my cv gives about 2.1-2.3k... so lets just assume 2.2

    with demon deadly i would have 12k + 2.2 + 5.8 + 500 = 20.5k
    and with sage take aim i would have 12k + 5(2.2) = 23k

    and of course regular shot deal more damage... but getting the kill is more important then dealing damage. ticking charm is a waste of damage since that just make your work so much longer. you... or aleast i like to kill my target without being annoyed by charms.

    I'm 102 thank you. On an Archer, BM, and a Mage.


    And to sound a bit snotty just like your post I'll say, "have you grinded out 270ish Million exp 3 times? Probably not.... so you dont really know anything."




    I dont want to do digging, but there were threads on this before - in which it was concluded that you need to reach a minimum refinement level, before on average take aim will beat deadly shot.



    500 - 100 = 400%.

    At 400% you need to match 5800 + 500 = 6300.

    Divided by 4 is 1575.


    So assuming you have a CV and your in that 4th percentile of the normal distribution that both always hits 500% and always hits your maximum weapon attack then you can say Take Aim does better.


    Key word is: UP-TO doesn't mean you do. You can immediately release Take aim and achieve 500% weapon damage too. Your chances of hitting 500% just get better the more time you spend channelling.


    Even if you sit around channeling your 2.5 seconds for take-aim as a demon you arent guaranteed to deal 400% weapon attack.


    Hence why Deadly shot is still better damage-wise unless you walking around with a +10 bow.





    In PvP situations you would only quick release take aim for the chance of a free 400% - in which case the time is considerably less than deadly-shot. Thats the real reason why people say take aim is better end game.

    Learn to play your class Mr Level 101 novice.

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