Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

Legerity - Sanctuary

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

y just since token thing more and more ppl use rank8 instead lunar cause more dmg and vs nirvana easier get good stat (still i prefer too the nirvana justa bit ahrder ro get).
till rank8 dont get debuff and easy to get and good damage too, more ppl forced to use metal then qs-ing a full buffed barb, maybe i am wrong but i think this and another side sage often use rc if want debuff somebody with 30% attack speed.

RC? I assume you mean the lightning debuff skill, thunder shock. Either cultivation doesn't have impressive bonuses with that skill so I don't know what you're trying to get at there. If not, what do you mean by RC? (edit: nvm, you meant Relentless Courage. Since you were from MY, I assumed it was the name of a MY skill. Anyway, have you actually tried to debuff a barb in several seconds? You probably won't get the proc in those seconds and on top of that, your genie will be useless for a good minute or two if you use RC to get the speed increase).

If you're talking about TW then obviously I wouldn't be kiting a barb because 1. they're pulling a cata, 2. they won't be chasing me, 3. I don't have time for a debuff proc, 4. I will probably get caught offguard by some others if I try to normal attack debuff. In TW, either cultivation can kill well. There are too many situations that either favor one cultivation or the other.

I was talking more along the lines of open PK. A ~15k hp barb is no problem. A fully buffed 20k hp or higher starts to become a problem. At times you will not be able to kill them even using genie skills. You could sure try to continuously knock them down with thunder skills but it will be a long fight. This is where I value a normal shot debuff.

Different fighting styles I guess but it is worth thinking about. Also, if you can afford +12 r8 or +12 nirvana, what's stopping you from getting a lunar bow just for debuffing purposes? Some BMs use Monarch for this reason.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

RC? I assume you mean the lightning debuff skill, thunder shock. Either cultivation doesn't have impressive bonuses with that skill so I don't know what you're trying to get at there. If not, what do you mean by RC? (edit: nvm, you meant Relentless Courage. Since you were from MY, I assumed it was the name of a MY skill. Anyway, have you actually tried to debuff a barb in several seconds? You probably won't get the proc in those seconds and on top of that, your genie will be useless for a good minute or two if you use RC to get the speed increase).

If you're talking about TW then obviously I wouldn't be kiting a barb because 1. they're pulling a cata, 2. they won't be chasing me, 3. I don't have time for a debuff proc, 4. I will probably get caught offguard by some others if I try to normal attack debuff. In TW, either cultivation can kill well. There are too many situations that either favor one cultivation or the other.

I was talking more along the lines of open PK. A ~15k hp barb is no problem. A fully buffed 20k hp or higher starts to become a problem. At times you will not be able to kill them even using genie skills. You could sure try to continuously knock them down with thunder skills but it will be a long fight. This is where I value a normal shot debuff.

Different fighting styles I guess but it is worth thinking about. Also, if you can afford +12 r8 or +12 nirvana, what's stopping you from getting a lunar bow just for debuffing purposes? Some BMs use Monarch for this reason.

i tryed said exactly same than ur bolded part.

i just replied to quick shoting barb, sage use often RC (about 2min, y a bit cost a bit time but work if u got a mag dex or mag vit genie) but anyway most of time u can use only 1x in non tw situation cause a barb not dumb just stay there and wait XD

or anyway vs me often barb's use anti stun so i cant really stay too much in same position XD

i know debuff is nice but need really time if u are unlucky but true whole archer is about luck XD

angellicdeity

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Angellic... nvm, some people aren't capable of civil discourse. Post from your main so we can see your stats and know you're really an end-game archer; there is no security breach from the new system unless you were foolish enough to make your login name the same as your display name.

I believe the point I'm trying to make here is that sage and demon archers are similar yet vastly different creatures in a PvP setting. To suggest one is better suited than another has not been "proven" and further it never can be. All anyone here in this thread has is anecdotal evidence on toons with varying degrees of equipment, levels and refinement, and personally, I don't feel that differences between the cultivation makes or breaks a toon.

Same old argument.


People like you advocating sages do not like to perform equal comparisons because of course thats the only way sage seems viable - when demon has nothing, no gears, no skills.


Please learn to actually argue your points.


The paper tiger argument that my points dont count because I choose not to expose my account for the world to see is stupid. For instance now any random kid who wants to try at your password all day knows your login name is "iniquitousis".



You havent addressed the points I present, you just merely avoid them because you are unable to provide rebuttle. Everyone reading this thread can see that.




This has been argued many times over.



Its pretty ironic too, if you actually took the time to search the forums, 2 people here are now agree'ing with me - wont say their names, when well over a year ago they were arguing the exact same points you are now.




Now sage or demon doesn't break a toon. But its simply wrong to be informing people that Sage has better PvP potentional. It is clear demon is the strict winner. And I quote:

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I know some very talented demon archers, but if asked, I will always tell people that sage has the potential to be better than demon for both PvE and PvP, so what it boils down to is style preference, skill, and the amount of time/coin put into a character.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

angellicdeity wrote: »

wrong to be informing people that Sage has better PvP potentional. It is clear demon is the strict winner.

potentional winner only who got better eq and reflex for, nothing more.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

potentional winner only who got better eq and reflex for, nothing more.

In my experience, a better understanding of the game can also help.

And, personally, if I am fighting another archer, I would much much rather fight a demon than another sage.

But that issue is secondary to another one: I would much rather I did not forget something important. I hate when I lose a battle or end one inconclusively, and then realize I did something really stupid.

Still, I have tried to explain to people that I am a fail archer -- that my build (300-ish dexterity) and my cultivation (sage) are just wrong for an archer. No one that has played with me believes me. Some have disagreed with me almost violently, when I suggested I was a fail archer.

(But this issue will be harder for me to play, in the future, because I am starting to get good gear.)

Quilue - Sanctuary

@Legy

RC = Relentless Courage.

edit: oh wait you figured it out wasnt reading your whole post

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Ok, @angellic. Brute force 'iniquitousis' as much as you want, it is not my login and will never yield access to my account. You've been posting behind your anonymous account for far longer than the new profile system, so don't act as if suddenly a change PWI has made will suddenly validate you hiding behind a seemingly anonymous account. As far as I'm concerned, if you're not posting with your character you're nothing more than a troll.

I've posted it before and I'll post it again-- there is absolutely no fair comparison between sage and demon PvP wise, as the number of factors and situations that separate the two are so numerous, that where one fails another will succeed. The nuances cannot be boiled down to a simple equation, despite your attempts. Your approach to comparing them isn't balanced, it is highly over-simplified, and always supports your own opinions. Your anecdotal experience and obvious pre-determined conclusion may never change.

To suggest that simply because a few people agree with your points does not make it valid. If you look at this thread, you'll find plenty of sage archers who will also tell you you're wrong. Of course, your rebuttal will be as disingenuous, if you even bother to read what others are saying. And yea, my quote still holds with regards to the difference between sage and demon. More so than a cultivation path, what matters most is timing, skill (from experience), equipment, and yea, at times procing on a QS or having chi.

It is apparent that your mileage and mine have varied, and I respect that, because ultimately it is nothing more than opinion to say which is better. When people ask me for my opinion, I give it to them, but please understand that what we have here is merely a difference of opinion, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Devoted - Lost City

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I've posted it before and I'll post it again-- there is absolutely no fair comparison between sage and demon PvP wise, as the number of factors and situations that separate the two are so numerous, that where one fails another will succeed. The nuances cannot be boiled down to a simple equation, despite your attempts. Your approach to comparing them isn't balanced, it is highly over-simplified, and always supports your own opinions. Your anecdotal experience and obvious pre-determined conclusion may never change.

There is no proof needed to show that demon is consistently better than sage in pvp. Every single argument for sage is always some uncommon situation that in retrospect rarely happens. A large majority of people know what makes an archer good and demon maximizes those attributes more effectively than sage. While the benefits of sage are easy to spot, if you take a step back and see what makes archers good you would understand why people choose demon. There is a stable argument for sage on the forums where people can theory-craft whatever situation they want and make it sound like it's useful but step in-game and everything falls apart.

Saying demon isn't better than sage just because I haven't incorporated every possible scenario into this thread is ridiculous. No one decides their cultivation by walking through every situation they might be in, they pick what plays on their strengths AND/OR what improves their weaknesses. Seeing as there isn't much diversity when it comes to pvp archer builds most have the same strengths and the same weaknesses. This is why demon is so popular. It's not some feat of luck that there are far more demon archers than sage archers it's simply due to the fact demon is more rewarding. I know of zero demon archers that converted to sage while plenty of sage archers I know converted to demon and actually enjoy pvping again.

There will always be people, like you, that prefer to take a different road altogether. It's not like it's the wrong road because it works for you but the mistake you make is thinking it will work for everyone else. In my opinion, fist archer for pvp isn't a viable build without out-gearing your opponent massively. Having rank 8 isn't cheap so I can assume the average person you fight will be at a disadvantage. I can kick the **** out of 8x's with my archer who uses XS (yes i do) but I don't actually think it's a good build and I sure as hell don't go around the forums advertising my 'uniqueness.' This point directly relates to sage too - unless you have a 'unique' build or play-style it's always a much safer bet to choose a generally better cultivation path that suits the needs of the average archer.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

There is no proof needed to show that demon is consistently better than sage in pvp. Every single argument for sage is always some uncommon situation that in retrospect rarely happens. A large majority of people know what makes an archer good and demon maximizes those attributes more effectively than sage. While the benefits of sage are easy to spot, if you take a step back and see what makes archers good you would understand why people choose demon. There is a stable argument for sage on the forums where people can theory-craft whatever situation they want and make it sound like it's useful but step in-game and everything falls apart.

Saying demon isn't better than sage just because I haven't incorporated every possible scenario into this thread is ridiculous. No one decides their cultivation by walking through every situation they might be in, they pick what plays on their strengths AND/OR what improves their weaknesses. Seeing as there isn't much diversity when it comes to pvp archer builds most have the same strengths and the same weaknesses. This is why demon is so popular. It's not some feat of luck that there are far more demon archers than sage archers it's simply due to the fact demon is more rewarding. I know of zero demon archers that converted to sage while plenty of sage archers I know converted to demon and actually enjoy pvping again.

There will always be people, like you, that prefer to take a different road altogether. It's not like it's the wrong road because it works for you but the mistake you make is thinking it will work for everyone else. In my opinion, fist archer for pvp isn't a viable build without out-gearing your opponent massively. Having rank 8 isn't cheap so I can assume the average person you fight will be at a disadvantage. I can kick the **** out of 8x's with my archer who uses XS (yes i do) but I don't actually think it's a good build and I sure as hell don't go around the forums advertising my 'uniqueness.' This point directly relates to sage too - unless you have a 'unique' build or play-style it's always a much safer bet to choose a generally better cultivation path that suits the needs of the average archer.

It probably is easier to be good PvP'er as a demon archer; A sage will have to compensate for attack rate and critical, for which come relatively cheap for a demon. A demon will have to compensate for a lack of defense (and arguably, a certain degree of versatility and chi generation but evidently that remains to be seen).

At the same time, you're right with regards to gear. It is more difficult to gather the equipment to be successful as a sage archer (-int gear comes at a premium regardless of your server), but gear and genie skill choices between the cultivation paths differ to compensate. I would argue alone, at least in terms of PvP (and maybe with specific regards to spark), that a demon can never catch up to a sage in terms of defense, but a sage can be built to compensate for attack rate and critical. In a sense, a sage has more room to grow, whereas demons hit a wall because they can never achieve a 25% reduction in damage received.

I don't buy the argument that demon is better simply because "most people" do it. I end up killing "most people" so it doesn't mean it is right or better by any stretch of the imagination.

On Dreamweaver (which maybe just backasswards, who knows), there are an equal number of sage and demon archers in the upper echeleon of PvP kills (yes, its a PvE server). One archer went from sage to demon and I now find him easier to kill than before. One archer went from demon to sage and hasn't regretted it since (and not by any intervention of my own).

Perhaps it is simply cheaper to make an effective glass cannon demon than it is to make a comparable sage with regards to survivability, so more people go demon.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In a sense, a sage has more room to grow, whereas demons hit a wall because they can never achieve a 25% reduction in damage received.

Wings of Grace? Stone turtle orbs? Wind shield? Demons use their sparks to kill... do sages really use them to run away?

Illyana - Dreamweaver

All of these options are also available to sages, there is cooldown on apo, chi isn't always available for WoG, etc.

Sparks should be used for killing b:chuckle Often, the difference is who is alive long enough to use the skills.

Rubix - Harshlands

What this thread is really about:


Archers are a good class. People dont think they are a good class. 95% of people who play archers have NO idea what to do. An archer that knows how to pk has insane potential to own everybody. If you don't know how to play an archer, dont role one because you will suck. If you think archers are bad then either A)You dont know how to play it , or you only fight those 95% of them who fail. I can own a horrible archer who has a +10 wep but a good archer with a +0 wep can equally own me. An archers ability all comes down to how the person can play it.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

There is a stable argument for sage on the forums where people can theory-craft whatever situation they want and make it sound like it's useful but step in-game and everything falls apart.

i got alot time that situations in another server where i never was in non kosed guild b:surrender

Saying demon isn't better than sage

+1

It's not some feat of luck that there are far more demon archers than sage archers it's simply due to the fact demon is more rewarding.

y but few skill description is tricky too, best example the qs where if dont proc then u losed time, another the 3rd fury when most of ppl dont want till u hit him, run away and laugh on u why u wasted 3 spark XD

ofc its really nice bonus but situation depend too cause not every target is nub. (ok have alot on server and laugh examples when ppls attack with low hp and soulburn on them and qq, in high lv too, or low hp archer do 3rd spark vs cleric who used antistun pill put him to sleep till effect over and same time debuff too then with genie dmg amplifiers 1 hit the archer ).

example in pw ms most of mg is hell, still alot sucks in 1vs1 too (vs holy wizz too)(hell side was proved the best side for wizz in 1vs1) so if something populare it dosnt mean u can play with it or u are better like u said too

There will always be people, like you, that prefer to take a different road altogether. It's not like it's the wrong road because it works for you but the mistake you make is thinking it will work for everyone else.

this is true, but true to demon side too,only difference most of ppl blame u if u arent demon (not only in archer case,veno, wizz case too, alot friend who made sage class told his guild said sage is sucks and he is stupid if choose sage[ofc no one was sage])

have few ppl who really can use the demon version advatanges and have more who follow because he heard "this and that" and follow the others and most of time fail if he choose something what maybe he dont want but others convinced him indifferent his playing style.
i watched alot demon archer who failed in that situation where my another sage archer friend got succes with less refined eq (cause they just choosed the demon path but cant play with it, just choosed something cause others, like sheeps XD ofc have nice dmeon archers too but fact really have alot fail, and mainly in demons cause they have more than sage XD)

fist archer for pvp isn't a viable build without out-gearing your opponent massively

y, exclude if u have a tank or in tw when u got enough time but even that must use the bow/sbow too.

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

@Shadowvzs Actuly i find more fail sage archers than demon archers. To look like your not fail as a demon archer all your realy have to do is demon spark and kill, ive seen so many fail sage archers they think just cuz they have skills that give them chi they have to use the skills. When in actuality it lowers their dmg, i dont know many demon archers who will demon spark and spam anything but metal or winspan/wing pledge on close range mobs but ive found quite a few sage archers who will sage spark and spam every skill. (maybe i just have bad luck with meeting sage archers or maybe i just dont squad with enough other demon archers)

dont get me wrong i know a few great sage archers but most of the sage archers ive met arent that great because they just spam skills for the extra chi sage spark and continue spaming skills they "oh well i get spark quicker" well guess what i can run up put on claws and demon spark and get chi a lot faster (no i do not have epic -int stuff i use dark flash [lvl 70 mold claws] rank 4 chest and OHT wrists with -.05 )

Oh btw who ever said bout the sage spark dmg reduction makeing it better than demon.... well you guys are going to get a rude awakeing when you relize the +30 atk lvl blessing just messed up your plan. So ok now you take 5% more dmg than 30 ok well i still have my +25% atk speed you just lost your major defence... i await the counter argument ^_^

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Shadowvzs Actuly i find more fail sage archers than demon archers. To look like your not fail as a demon archer all your realy have to do is demon spark and kill, ive seen so many fail sage archers they think just cuz they have skills that give them chi they have to use the skills. When in actuality it lowers their dmg, i dont know many demon archers who will demon spark and spam anything but metal or winspan/wing pledge on close range mobs but ive found quite a few sage archers who will sage spark and spam every skill. (maybe i just have bad luck with meeting sage archers or maybe i just dont squad with enough other demon archers)

dont get me wrong i know a few great sage archers but most of the sage archers ive met arent that great because they just spam skills for the extra chi sage spark and continue spaming skills they "oh well i get spark quicker" well guess what i can run up put on claws and demon spark and get chi a lot faster (no i do not have epic -int stuff i use dark flash [lvl 70 mold claws] rank 4 chest and OHT wrists with -.05 )

Oh btw who ever said bout the sage spark dmg reduction makeing it better than demon.... well you guys are going to get a rude awakeing when you relize the +30 atk lvl blessing just messed up your plan. So ok now you take 5% more dmg than 30 ok well i still have my +25% atk speed you just lost your major defence... i await the counter argument ^_^

y that possible u met more fail sage, but its aint path fault (still i met with more demon archer[ofc have enough amount fail sage too in my server like that guy who was lv100 and started 3rd fury+skill spamming on metal warsong bossb:laugh] i really dont got the point the spamming skills vs few squishy class)

i dont said sage spark better than demon just pretty egual since genie mostly the reflex count, to avoid and do counter attack in right time, use skills in good time.

Lu$t - Sanctuary

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

All of these options are also available to sages, there is cooldown on apo, chi isn't always available for WoG, etc.

Sparks should be used for killing b:chuckle Often, the difference is who is alive long enough to use the skills.

Our defense is only as good as our offense...and Aste wasnt saying those arent available to sages, its just that demons can easily compensate for the 25% reduction you speak of making your point sorta not viable. I look at it this way...reduction can be easily and cheaply compensated for if youre a demon, but how easy(easy being the keyword) is it for a sage to make up that +25%(demon spark) or that +30%(demon quickshot)?

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Lu$t - Sanctuary wrote: »

Our defense is only as good as our offense...and Aste wasnt saying those arent available to sages, its just that demons can easily compensate for the 25% reduction you speak of making your point sorta not viable. I look at it this way...reduction can be easily and cheaply compensated for if youre a demon, but how easy(easy being the keyword) is it for a sage to make up that +25%(demon spark) or that +30%(demon quickshot)?

same easily than the reduction for demon :P

Esuna - Raging Tide

Didnt bother reading full first post because OP is **** and uses PW-MY terms after over a year of playtime on Englihs server.

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

umm you didnt check the origanal date did you it was april 27th 2009.... umm thats over a year ago just though you should know......

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

All of these options are also available to sages, there is cooldown on apo, chi isn't always available for WoG, etc.

Sparks should be used for killing b:chuckle Often, the difference is who is alive long enough to use the skills.

You have been making some points which make sense, but if you do not have chi for wings of grace, how can you have enough chi for triple spark?

Anyways, sparks being used for killing does not always mean that they should be used for the spark skill. For example, if another archer demon sparks on you you could try triple sparking yourself, and tanking. If you do, good luck with that... Or you can get to your own max range during the spark burst and freeze them in place. If done right, that leaves you with two sparks unused, and a dead demon. (Of course doing that right not easy -- but if you have a clock that counts seconds visible you can maybe time your aim low so you have only a fraction of a second wait between spark burst end and aim low hits.)

Lu$t - Sanctuary

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

same easily than the reduction for demon :P

In all honestly I didnt quite understand that o.o so not gonna make a rebuttal to a comment I dont fullt understad xD Can you clarify?

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Lu$t - Sanctuary wrote: »

In all honestly I didnt quite understand that o.o so not gonna make a rebuttal to a comment I dont fullt understad xD Can you clarify?

how can get demon damage reduction without useing spark? pharma or genie. same sage can use pots and genie what increase the attack speed.

Quilue - Sanctuary

You people speak as if people are going to be **** enough to triple spark in the open where everyone goes "hey look! this fruit just blossomed like a flower, lets stun and seal it!" You don't notice people triple sparking in TW every time, you see a 9k crit and realize some mother****er triple sparked. There are rocks, hills, walls, towers, all sorts of places to let you spark or barrage relatively safely and out of sight.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You people speak as if people are going to be **** enough to triple spark in the open where everyone goes "hey look! this fruit just blossomed like a flower, lets stun and seal it!" You don't notice people triple sparking in TW every time, you see a 9k crit and realize some mother****er triple sparked. There are rocks, hills, walls, towers, all sorts of places to let you spark or barrage relatively safely and out of sight.

in tw y but in tw longer disntace, faster chi, reduction nice too same like qs,demon spark, crit buffs. 1st we talked about normal pk too.
(in tw few situation not that rarly like in normal pk, example when get 1 hit by a wizz after 3rd spark XD or u do nice damage with demon spark but same time damage reduction good too since after u start the barriage u will a main target)

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

how can get demon damage reduction without useing spark? pharma or genie. same sage can use pots and genie what increase the attack speed.

how can get sage damage reduction without useing spark?

If you really feel like starting off with the silly assumption you have 0 sparks, 0 genie energy, and 0 apoth, Demons can get +30% attack speed while Sages have 0 attack speed and 0 damage reduction.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

how can get sage damage reduction without useing spark?

If you really feel like starting off with the silly assumption you have 0 sparks, 0 genie energy, and 0 apoth, Demons can get +30% attack speed while Sages have 0 attack speed and 0 damage reduction.

y demon can get 30% attack speed every ~12sec and if ur eq not enough good then u die in 12 sec or u want use stun too XD its usefull only in not 1vs1 fights if u just want spam qs without any other skill this is a special case too in 1vs1 :P.

(another side after sage use the chi skill, stun, take aim and nearly got 1 spark without genie with will be enough for wing of grace and still similiar amount of time needed than for 2 qs.)

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

I'm beginning to think you don't have much pvp experience. Demons use QS at the start of a fight or after a stun... not after 12s of tanking hits.

Sages have a few skills that give them damage reduction from sparks (25% or 30%) and no skills that increase attack rate and no skills that increase crit.

Demons have a few skills that increase attack rate and a few skills that increase crit and they have a damage reduction skill that takes a spark (30%).

I'm getting annoyed talking to a lvl 1 cleric. Post from your main or just stop with your flawed theorycraft.

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

(another side after sage use the chi skill, stun, take aim and nearly got 1 spark without genie with will be enough for wing of grace and still similiar amount of time needed than for 2 qs.)

im sorry but you did it to your self i now have to call you fail.... kids dont try that^ in pk youll just get a free trip to town

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

im sorry but you did it to your self i now have to call you fail.... kids dont try that^ in pk youll just get a free trip to town

why would a sage archer not use take aim... its the highest physical damage skill that an archer has. a fully charged take aim on a +10 cv can crit over 10k. with a 4.5s stun on the target... you can safely charge up the whole 3 seconds.

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

that is assumeing a 1v1 if your in group pvp you realy think your gonna be aloud to channle and cast take aim? also if you have a +10 its easyer to just stun > shoot for 4 sec you would probly come out with more dmg in the long run