Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

angellicdeity wrote: »

I'm 102 thank you. On an Archer, BM, and a Mage.


And to sound a bit snotty just like your post I'll say, "have you grinded out 270ish Million exp 3 times? Probably not.... so you dont really know anything."




I dont want to do digging, but there were threads on this before - in which it was concluded that you need to reach a minimum refinement level, before on average take aim will beat deadly shot.

You can claim to have a 102 in every class for all i care... but as long as your posting behing an unknown... you might as well be an unknown.

At this level in time... about 90% of the archers that I interact with have aleast +10 or better on a cv or better weapon. Just where is that "minimum refine" level that you spoke of where take aim becomes greather then deadly? +11... or are we talking about +12? The min refine can be easily meet with a decent refine on tt90 xbow.

Quilue - Sanctuary

I do believe CV bow's damage range is a lot higher than 2k...unless you have the slingshot or something. Anyways, I'm pretty sure a fully charged take aim will always do the max percentage of weapon damage add-on, it's just that since your base damage still varies sometimes a charged take aim might feel like a regular shot if you're wielding an xbow or something.

EthikaII - Heavens Tear

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Only know of terrible archers on lost city and harshlands. Maybe heaven's tear knows how to roll. b:mischievous

T~T i don't do 10 shot only 4-5 and you hate my build
7dex-1str-1vit every lvls

Im PvEr not PvPer T~T
please put at begging "pvpers here"or somthing

Im sorry but .."Sage/Demon" for the life of me i could only find "8/2" to my preference

now.. like i said im pve not pvp...and i don't take 10 shots to kill...
sage:
yes that carbearness you mentioned
"sharptooth arrow-reduces max hp by 20% "
storm rage eagleon- reduces targets ohy/mag def by 20%
knockback-reduce cool down to 10 sec
even though i haven't used it much lately
deadly shot-does full damage reguardless of distance
barrage- reduce damage during casting by 33%
winged shell- absorbs 250 more damage
winged blessing- 14 meter range
bow mastery- 90% increase to range damage weapon attack

demon:deadly shot- increase damage by 500 and reduce cooldown to 10 sec
barage- reduce unterval by .5sec

event though i liked more things in sage, i rly don't want to be tuanted in a game i like becuase, ppl can only see one way , they're way or no way .
why should ppl be called fail becuase of they're preferance

side note.. i rly want to slap these ppl who rage on archers when it takes them 10 shots.what is like every fracking mob "Increased Life for them"or "mini boss" perhaps?

Shadowvzs - Lost City

angellicdeity wrote: »

Hence why Deadly shot is still better damage-wise unless you walking around with a +10 bow.

In PvP situations you would only quick release take aim for the chance of a free 400% - in which case the time is considerably less than deadly-shot. Thats the real reason why people say take aim is better end game.

Learn to play your class Mr Level 101 novice.

ok in sage case a bit different, less pattack on deadly a bit and more on take aim. what i like in take aim? the animation less visible, a bit faster, and y luck depend tq to damage range, i can fire out faster if situation changeing or want fast chi but still hit something + mana consume.

i dont say its something uber but also not useless cause most or acher atleast got a 10 weapon for end game weapon. (correct me if wrong).

about lunar bow min and max pattack difference

I do believe CV bow's damage range is a lot higher than 2k...

★Emperor Slayer +10
Bow
Grade Rank 13
Attack Frequency(Times/second) 0.71
Physical Attack 1602-2307
Level Requirement: 95
Strength Requirement: 52
Agility Requirement: 287
Interval Between attack -0.1сек
Agility +17
Decrepity: A certain chance to dispel away all the opponent's positive states effect.

rank8

★★Bow of The Nimrod +12
Bow
Grade Rank 14
Attack Frequency(Times/second) 0.71
Physical Attack 2432-3456
Level Requirement: 100
Strength Requirement: 50
Agility Requirement: 300
Interval Between attack -0.1sec
Probability of Critical +4%
Agility +15
Military rank equipment: Unable to disassemble
Unable to trade, discard, death protection.

EthikaII - Heavens Tear

EthikaII - Heavens Tear wrote: »

sage:
yes that carbearness you mentioned
"sharptooth arrow-reduces max hp by 20% "
storm rage eagleon- reduces targets ohy/mag def by 20%
knockback-reduce cool down to 10 sec
even though i haven't used it much lately
deadly shot-does full damage reguardless of distance
barrage- reduce damage during casting by 33%
winged shell- absorbs 250 more damage
winged blessing- 14 meter range
bow mastery- 90% increase to range damage weapon attack

demon:deadly shot- increase damage by 500 and reduce cooldown to 10 sec
barage- reduce unterval by .5sec

Also if any of those are wrong xD please mention it cuase i know ectomb has its many flaws

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

angellicdeity wrote: »

500 - 100 = 400%.

At 400% you need to match 5800 + 500 = 6300.

Divided by 4 is 1575.

So assuming you have a CV and your in that 4th percentile of the normal distribution that both always hits 500% and always hits your maximum weapon attack then you can say Take Aim does better.

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

ok in sage case a bit different, less pattack on deadly a bit and more on take aim. what i like in take aim?

the nub with 3 level 102 character came out with 1575 weapon damage for sage take aim to break even with demon deadly. what the nub forgotten to mention is that given the same weapon sage archers will have a greater base weapon damage then demon (with 1% less crit)... taking in to account of bow mastery. so the actual number is lower then the 1575.

firing off a no channal take aim is just like a regular shot... to gain the full percent of damage you'll need to sit through the whole 3 second chan (same chan time as deadly). take 4.5s sage stun into consideration... there is no reason that one can't pull off a full 3s chan take aim in any sitution.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

@Ethicka 2 -- the OP originally suggested that Demon was better than Sage for both PvP and PvE (or failed to differentiate which he was talking about) but recently this thread has turned into "Which Cultivation has the greatest PvP potential" with its recent resurgence.

Regardless, the original post is woefully inaccurate with regards to both skill descriptions and application in part because genies did not exist at the original time of authorship, Nirvana and end-game equipment has changed, Clawchers are now a relatively common build/occurrence, and well-- this was written as a rant and not really a guide.

It is easy to take every paragraph written in the original post and refute it based on the inherent errors in either the analysis, over-simplification, or skill description errors.

Assuming Devoted was talking about PvP only (let's assume he is):

-Quickshot
Sage version has a 50% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version has a 50% chance to increase attack rate by 30% for 6 seconds.
Devoted is right-- demon quickshot is better than sage quickshot on the whole. Sage archers have no issue taking down squishes and their increased stun length makes up for this great demon skill.

-Lightning Strike
Sage version has a 25% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version extends cooldown by 2 seconds, but will never miss.
Devoted overestimates the effectiveness of 'never miss', in particular because of the frequency of +50% accuracy ornaments. Assuming sage/demon damage was the same, I would opt for sometimes miss and regular cooldown over never miss and additional 2 seconds of cooldown.

-Sharptooth
Sage version always reduces maximum HP by 20%.
Demon version grants a 10% increase to critical hit for 15 seconds.

Despite thinking that sage STA is for carebears, 20% AoE is a lot off the top of any heavy. Not only does this skill inflict the status effect first, but you end up doing the next hit on top of that. Killing a heavy with a sage's arsenal after their hiero ticks should be a walk in the park.

-Stun
Sage version increases stun duration to 4.5 seconds.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 10% for 10 seconds.
When these skills stand alone, they are pretty equal; however sages gain a synergistic advantage of a longer stun to compensate for demon QS.

-Wingspan
Sage version has a 20% chance to gain 50 Chi.
Demon version casts a Level 5 Winged Shell on yourself upon a successful hit.
The description for the sage skill here is erroneous. This is how the skill procs: Sage Wingspan. In real PvP situations, any wingedshell regardless of a level means you'll receive 20% damage of the next thing to hit you. I'll take 108 chi over one measly hit any day.

-Wings of protection
Sage version always increases evasion duration to 1 hour and speed increase duration to 15 minutes.
Demon version always increases evasion by 50% and speed by 20%.
The difference here between these skills is pretty minor; in TW/PvP situations you will rarely stay alive for longer than 15 minutes, so sage has no real advantage here. As we've already said evasion in this game has long been broken, but you can argue that 5% more evasion is "less broken".

-Barrage of arrows
Sage version reduces damage taken during casting by 33%.
Demon version reduces the interval between attacks by 0.5 seconds.
The main application of this skill in PvP is in TW; having a portable BB is nice, and dealing damage faster is nice. A smart archer will pair their barrages with an antistun pot or skill, meaning the effectiveness of this skill can be longer in term, which lends credit to a non-glass cannon type build. Depending on how you use this skill, both can be highly advantageous.

-Thundershock
Sage version increases Metal resistance reduction to 25 seconds.
Demon version has a 10% chance to paralyze enemy for 10 seconds.
Demon Thundershock description is erroneous; for killing HA or LA, you need a hard-hitting skill that can tick past a hiero. Thundershock is not only a wonderful debuff, but it is also a wonderful attack. When you reapply this skill, make sure its stacked with an already existing metal debuff. Sages win out here. The 10% chance "to paralyze an enemy" only lasts for 3 seconds. It can neither be counted on nor is it entirely beneficial.

-Winged blessing
Sage version always gives a 14 meter range increase.
Demon version increases accuracy by 10% on ranged targets.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 1% on ranged targets.
As evasion is broken in this game, 10% accuracy will not translate to anything. The only advantage is having 1 additional crit. Having an additional 2 meters over every other class, however, is highly advantageous, especially after the implementation of the tab key for targetting, as it selects the closest target first. That means that a sage archer can approach the first line of an enemy attack in TW first, landing a crucial first stun, Aim Low, etc.

It isn't as if Devoted was entirely incorrect when he wrote this a long time ago, its that he wasn't correctly informed about all of the skill descriptions. He also did not know how genies would change game-play, or how people would create different builds other than "Hybrid, Pure or Vit". His entire argument about the helm of Aqua Terribleness is no longer relevant, because 90% of archers of both cultivation paths past 99 have stated for the use of deicide claws or TT100 fists.

TL;DR -- The game has changed, and so has the discussion.

EthikaII - Heavens Tear

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Ethicka 2 -- the OP originally suggested that Demon was better than Sage for both PvP and PvE (or failed to differentiate which he was talking about) but recently this thread has turned into "Which Cultivation has the greatest PvP potential" with its recent resurgence.


It isn't as if Devoted was entirely incorrect when he wrote this a long time ago, its that he wasn't correctly informed about all of the skill descriptions. He also did not know how genies would change game-play, or how people would create different builds other than "Hybrid, Pure or Vit". His entire argument about the helm of Aqua Terribleness is no longer relevant, because 90% of archers of both cultivation paths past 99 have stated for the use of deicide claws or TT100 fists.

TL;DR -- The game has changed, and so has the discussion.

Ty Illyana for the correct skill discriptions
I'm to assume your sage then?


and.. omg ty for pointing out the thread date XD!

Fleuri - Sanctuary

And, if anyone cares, sage stormrage eagelon's description is wrong.

It says that it debuffs your opponent's attacks, but when you use it, you get the same icons on the enemy that appear when a blademaster uses myriad sword stance (except the debuff from stormrage eagelon lasts 30 seconds and probably does not reduce so much attack).

Devoted - Lost City

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-Lightning Strike
Sage version has a 25% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version extends cooldown by 2 seconds, but will never miss.
Devoted overestimates the effectiveness of 'never miss', in particular because of the frequency of +50% accuracy ornaments. Assuming sage/demon damage was the same, I would opt for sometimes miss and regular cooldown over never miss and additional 2 seconds of cooldown.

-Wings of protection
Sage version always increases evasion duration to 1 hour and speed increase duration to 15 minutes.
Demon version always increases evasion by 50% and speed by 20%.
The difference here between these skills is pretty minor; in TW/PvP situations you will rarely stay alive for longer than 15 minutes, so sage has no real advantage here. As we've already said evasion in this game has long been broken, but you can argue that 5% more evasion is "less broken".

-Winged blessing
Sage version always gives a 14 meter range increase.
Demon version increases accuracy by 10% on ranged targets.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 1% on ranged targets.
As evasion is broken in this game, 10% accuracy will not translate to anything. The only advantage is having 1 additional crit. Having an additional 2 meters over every other class, however, is highly advantageous, especially after the implementation of the tab key for targetting, as it selects the closest target first. That means that a sage archer can approach the first line of an enemy attack in TW first, landing a crucial first stun, Aim Low, etc.

I don't quite follow this...

Never missing isn't that good because evasion is broken? oO

Quilue - Sanctuary

oops i meant CV bow's damage range has to be more than 200

anyways, Thundershock is actually a 3s seal/freeze, believe it or not. and it procing is pretty nice. Saying it's not entirely beneficial is kind of glossing it over. I mean a Demon Archer stun is 3.5s anyway.

I don't understand how Sage could be better with it's debuff longer lasting, because you need to cycle your one of 3 metals anyway, so it's not like you're not going to be reapplying it when it's cooled down and a heavy hasn't died.

Wingspan: the shield is actually pretty ludicrous, I guess you have more options with the chi gain, but the one block is very nice, especially because people don't see it coming and try to bypass your charm with an arma or something right after you slip this in. At the very least, this is your 1 protection that doesn't cost chi (other than Condor i guess)

Stunning Arrow: who said I must chain this with QS? I could just fire with 10% increased crit you know...

QS: I guess killing squishies isn't a problem when you have 8jun, but at one time, people had unimpressively refined TT90s against robes with garnet gems and ****. I have killed some of the best geared robes on my server because of a chain of quickened crits when I had the +4 TT90. No ****ing kidding...mother****ers had their pack items up the **** and they died to a green weapon. Now with more attack speed and a better bow, I can kill some BMs with this (not the vit ones with 20k hp tho)

angellicdeity

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

ok in sage case a bit different, less pattack on deadly a bit and more on take aim. what i like in take aim? the animation less visible, a bit faster, and y luck depend tq to damage range, i can fire out faster if situation changeing or want fast chi but still hit something + mana consume.

i dont say its something uber but also not useless cause most or acher atleast got a 10 weapon for end game weapon. (correct me if wrong).

about lunar bow min and max pattack difference

rank8

And I Quote:

angellicdeity wrote: »

Hence why Deadly shot is still better damage-wise unless you walking around with a +10 bow..

And wrong. Most archers arent running around with a +10 end-game bow. Most archers dont even have a Nirvana Bow. Most Archers dont have a rank 8 bow.


I dont know where your getting these facts from, but most archers dont spend $300 for 3 +10 Dragon Orbs.


Most archers dont have the 60M x 3 worth of in-game coins to buy them from other players either. Nevermind factoring the 60M to buy your LG ornament.


Most archers dont have the time investment to get those either. With the economy the way it is its not easy to make money merchanting anymore - exspecially on lost city.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

the nub with 3 level 102 character came out with 1575 weapon damage for sage take aim to break even with demon deadly. what the nub forgotten to mention is that given the same weapon sage archers will have a greater base weapon damage then demon (with 1% less crit)... taking in to account of bow mastery. so the actual number is lower then the 1575.

firing off a no channal take aim is just like a regular shot... to gain the full percent of damage you'll need to sit through the whole 3 second chan (same chan time as deadly). take 4.5s sage stun into consideration... there is no reason that one can't pull off a full 3s chan take aim in any sitution.

Wow biggest newbi ever.


No passive buffs stack with sage take aim's 500% weapon damage affect. Only refines will affect the sage take-aims affect.


Again learn to play your class then come back and post.



101 and fail - really did you oracle or hyper?

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

And, if anyone cares, sage stormrage eagelon's description is wrong.

It says that it debuffs your opponent's attacks, but when you use it, you get the same icons on the enemy that appear when a blademaster uses myriad sword stance (except the debuff from stormrage eagelon lasts 30 seconds and probably does not reduce so much attack).

*brushes aside the Stormrage Eagelon debuff*
*starts charging mah magical lazor~*
b:bye

b:chuckle

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

angellicdeity wrote: »

And I Quote:
And wrong. Most archers arent running around with a +10 end-game bow. Most archers dont even have a Nirvana Bow. Most Archers dont have a rank 8 bow.

I dont know where your getting these facts from, but most archers dont spend $300 for 3 +10 Dragon Orbs.

Most archers dont have the 60M x 3 worth of in-game coins to buy them from other players either. Nevermind factoring the 60M to buy your LG ornament.

Most archers dont have the time investment to get those either. With the economy the way it is its not easy to make money merchanting anymore - exspecially on lost city.

I am genuinely feel sorry for lost city's lower then **** archers population if most of them don't even have +10 cv. On HT... there maybe be a few +7 or above archers that are somewhat skilled... but +10 cv or above is pretty much a requirement to be a named archer.

angellicdeity wrote: »

Wow biggest newbi ever.

No passive buffs stack with sage take aim's 500% weapon damage affect. Only refines will affect the sage take-aims affect.

Again learn to play your class then come back and post.

101 and fail - really did you oracle or hyper?

You know... there is a skill called bow mastery... of course you know... aleast i really hope you know. At level 10 that skills 60% (if memory serves) extra ranged damage. Sage version gives 90%... which demon verson gives 75%. And guess what... take aim is BASE DAMAGE + 400-500% weapon damage.

And oh yea... either post under your in game character or you'll just be treated like any other level 1 scum.

Shinkansen - Lost City

soooooooo, a couple things that have already been mentioned but seems people like to just skip them over as if there nothing. low hp cleric. wizzies, well squishies in general. if your a sage and open with take aim pretty decent chance the'll just die right there. 2ndly for the really dumb person earlier on who actually said deadly shot does more dmg then take aim late game. well stop smoking what you currently are and actually pay attention.

demon -
deadly shot - base + 100% wep + 5.8k ok pretty hard hitting but still not the top dmg do nearby targets . . . ya maby if there spooning and if you've done many tw's as i have. people don't like to stay as close as you think they do. certainly not close enough for this to hit more then 1
take aim - base + 400% wep dmg. so any bow that does more then what 1450 dmg (so the basic TT80 xbow with 0 refines ya easy to get) passes deadly shots dmg pretty easy

sage -
deadly shot - full dmg regardless of distance (great for wizzies who get in yoru face as mentinoed earlier. base + 100% + 5.8k
take aim - base + 500%. your bow only has to have dmg higher then 1160 to bypass deadly shots dmg (with exception to people under 5m).

well there are a few actual stats for you.

2nd: barrage in TW. ok a couple things here ya it's flashy but there are a couple ways around this. a. the tower near the crystal if you hide under the roof the only barrage animation seen is the one hitting you in the head, the rest is stopped by the cealing. and b. the little guards you can set up that are sorta like housing foundatinos but only sideways a base and about a 45 degree angle. ya you can barrage under that as well and avoid the animation from beeing seen. by the time somebody cancels there target and/or sees/reaches you you've gotten atleast 2-3 AoE barrage hits off which makes it more then worth it considering it has a rather large AoE. just make sure your target is the cata barb to be sure the barrage stays up long enough for maximum effect.

ok that's a few simple things for those who can't seem to understand them. and the lvl don't really matter for that (other then the lvl for lvl 11 take aim/deadly)

ps: I'm really sorry for the wall of text, but actually reading through all of that nonsense which was pretty easy to figure out just annoyed me

truekossy

Shinkansen - Lost City wrote: »

well squishies in general

The only squishies endgame are LA users and people who are unbuffed. b:surrender

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

I wouldn't say this the last time i played my Archer I enjoyed it especially since I went all dex and learned winged shell.

Shinkansen - Lost City

truekossy wrote: »

The only squishies endgame are LA users and people who are unbuffed. b:surrender

true enough. but that still means generally the same thing i was pointing at. . . . non heavies. LA after 80 isn't to far pdef under AA if they get good pdef ammy/belt and such but hey.

Uriah - Raging Tide

I have a Sage Archer and am very fond of my build and the performance I get out of it. I'm not statted for fists or a heavy helm. Every single piece of gear I have either adds dex, or adds str that has been restatted into dex.

People tend to look at forums/guides and instantly agree with them without question. And in a lot of guides and forums, there is a lot of misinformation regarding skills, etc.

Here are a few examples.
Myth-Sage Bow Mastery adds 95% to weapon damage.
Fact-Sage bow Mastery adds 95% to "ranged attack", effectively giving a Sage Archer atk lvl15 to ranged attacks based upon damage dealt.

Myth-An archer can deal more damage in-close with 5aps and fists.
Fact-An extreme dex archer that didn't waste the points on str for fists and warsoul Helm, equipped with Sage Winged Pledge (one second cool-down and casting) and Sage Wingspan can deal damage faster. (I have proven this in duels several times, with Demon-fist archers hitting me with 5aps at 300 damage a hit. And I hit them twice in less than two seconds with a total of 9,000 damage.)

Myth-A Sage Archer isn't any better than a Demon archer at taking down HA, because you already have enough metal skills as an archer the way it is.
Fact-Sage Archer metal skills are better than demon in a lot of ways. Also, and I have tested this theory in several TWs against barbs and BMs, Sage Frost Arrow restats all phys damage into water damage. So even if a barb or BM has increased metal resistance, this skill pwns them. (And don't forget the 20% max HP reduction dealt with Sage STA.)

Myth-One point of dex isn't that important.
Fact-Dex multiplies by weapon damage, making every dex point count. it also affects evasion and accuracy.

And my final argument against Demon/fist builds being better than Sage/extreme dex is this. Take part in a long, drawn out TW and run out of chi pots. And then die in the enemy base while your catas are on their crystal. Now hurry back and set up barrage. Oh wait...you have no chi...

I'm not saying my build is really better than demon either, because I know a lot of good Demon archers. Both of them in a squad together can be a devastating combination in both PvE and PvP.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/GhostNThaMachine/archerstats.jpg

This is my build. The pic on the left is unbuffed. The one on the right is unbuffed and sparked. I have a Jones Blessing, and 10 DoTs in my gear, giving me an effective atk lvl of 55 to ranged attacks on top of the damage I already get from 534 dex multiplied by the damage of a +10 R8 bow.

Teppeii - Dreamweaver

Uriah - Raging Tide wrote: »

Stuff about Sage Archers are epics lolz

Cool story bro. Even cooler necro.b:bye

Devoted - Lost City

Teppeii - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Cool story bro. Even cooler necro.b:bye

If this gets locked I'm blowing up the place.

chaoticshelly

Closed for necro.

grimreaperhc

Okay, thread re-opened, also made sticky and re-named.

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver

ChaoticShelly wrote: »

Closed for necro.

It's a guide. Guide's stay relevant even if theyr old.

Tnx grim

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Dude, what? This entire "guide" was one disgruntled PK-focused elitist ranting on how there's only ONE way to ever play an archer and hurling passive-agressive insults at whoever disagreed with that. Then s/he tells us "not to flame" at the end of it.

New mods: I'm trying to give you guys some credit, but you need to actually read these things before stickying them. This should have stayed buried. Please return it to the grave.

grimreaperhc

Miugre, I assume this is his/her way of writing stuff. The 'guide' is actually pretty helpful for people who are wondering which way to choose. Plus you can see how many pages of discussions about it have been made. He/She is not forcing anybody to go hell, she is just showing her point of view and it seems that many archers are agreed with it from the posts I've seen around.

I can say that I like the guide and I encourage Devolted to add some additional info.

PS: Meh archer iz going demon cuz frost arrow is teh ****!!1!!11

Oh wait ..

Miugre - Heavens Tear

GrimReaperHC wrote: »

Miugre, I assume this is his/her way of writing stuff. The 'guide' is actually pretty helpful for people who are wondering which way to choose. Plus you can see how many pages of discussions about it have been made. He/She is not forcing anybody to go hell, she is just showing her point of view and it seems that many archers are agreed with it from the posts I've seen around.

I can say that I like the guide and I encourage Devolted to add some additional info.

PS: Meh archer iz going demon cuz frost arrow is teh ****!!1!!11

Oh wait ..

You can "write stuff" without hurling insults at anyone who disagrees with you. This isn't a guide, it's a manifesto on precisely one way to play an archer. "It's this way or the highway" is not the example we want to set here. -_-

I've sent you and Shelly a PM on this matter.

Falcondance - Heavens Tear

And yet in the 11 pages of comments that I read before I got bored, Devoted managed to disprove most if not all of the pro-heaven comments. No, he doesn't sugarcoat anything, but I would much rather hear a comparison of facts geared towards hearing why Heaven is terribad and made of fail than a gently worded thread telling me why Heaven is "not that good."

It's written by a Hell archer, snubbing the Heaven cultivation path. Of course some Heaven archers will take offense. I haven't seen a "Why Heaven is better than Hell" thread, though.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And yet in the 11 pages of comments that I read before I got bored, Devoted managed to disprove most if not all of the pro-heaven comments. No, he doesn't sugarcoat anything, but I would much rather hear a comparison of facts geared towards hearing why Heaven is terribad and made of fail than a gently worded thread telling me why Heaven is "not that good."

It's written by a Hell archer, snubbing the Heaven cultivation path. Of course some Heaven archers will take offense. I haven't seen a "Why Heaven is better than Hell" thread, though.

Heh, I'm sure I could write one if I felt like it, but what's the point? It would all come down to "I like it this way." And that's all anyone should ever need to reach their decision on Sage/Demon.

The facts are that Demon is statistically better than sage in terms of damage output and PVP potential. We know that. We cont need a cascade of insults to go along with it. The whole OP sounded like a rant made after Devoted had encountered an archer who didn't accept his/her arguments as gospel, and took it upon him/herself to "get it through their heads." Do I want to argue with Devoted on why I took the sage path? No, because I wouldn't expect any kind of mature discussion from it. And the same thing would happen if anyone made a pro-sage thread - fifty people stamping them into the dirt with raw data, when raw data is never the point of going sage to begin with.

A real guide would present a far less biased account of the individual skills, note that demon is better in terms of raw data, and then suggest that the reader make his or her own informed choice. This one, by contrast, carries the message of "if you aren't a full-dex demon archer than you can GTFO."

grimreaperhc

Miugre, check your inbox.

I`ll talk to Dev about this thread and proceed with actions after that. Meanwhile I would like to hear the opinions of the rest archers who are working with guides etc. Please send me a PM. Thanks.