Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

Viktorian - Archosaur

can we get an unbiased opinion guide
cuz they pretty much yelled out that sage archer=fail
which is the exact same problem i have with the sage bm=fail sentiment
THEY ARENT FAIL
maybe those ppl uve seen are fail but in the whole PWI community there are those ppl who take a culti called fail for the class and become great at it. not a rant at OP just a rant at cookie cutter ppl and class=culti morons

Devoted - Lost City

Viktorian - Archosaur wrote: »

can we get an unbiased opinion guide
cuz they pretty much yelled out that sage archer=fail
which is the exact same problem i have with the sage bm=fail sentiment
THEY ARENT FAIL
maybe those ppl uve seen are fail but in the whole PWI community there are those ppl who take a culti called fail for the class and become great at it. not a rant at OP just a rant at cookie cutter ppl and class=culti morons

This guide is so outdated I've completed a bachelors degree in the time since it was made.

nignig23

Ok I'm guud archerrrrr

TheMVP - Heavens Tear

Sage is by far better now days. it didnt use to be the case demon was better for a long time until the update gave sages the upperhand. Sages shoot farther and shoot harder and is better in almost every skill. Only thing demon is good at is the triple spark which hits the hardest of all and quick shot which hits faster if it works, and thats the problem with demon, Quickshot only works 50% of the time, so right now Sage is by far better. If the game ever made the Demon Quickshot 100% then I think they would be pretty even but I doubt that will happen anytime soon even though they should to balance it. so for all you new archers u dont need to read this guide just go Sage because demon has nothing to offer but Triple spark.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

TheMVP - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sage is by far better now days. it didnt use to be the case demon was better for a long time until the update gave sages the upperhand. Sages shoot farther and shoot harder and is better in almost every skill. Only thing demon is good at is the triple spark which hits the hardest of all and quick shot which hits faster if it works, and thats the problem with demon, Quickshot only works 50% of the time, so right now Sage is by far better. If the game ever made the Demon Quickshot 100% then I think they would be pretty even but I doubt that will happen anytime soon even though they should to balance it. so for all you new archers u dont need to read this guide just go Sage because demon has nothing to offer but Triple spark.

Necro and extremely misinformed (this is the archer forum, numbers or gtfo. Also, you're wrong).

I think we have a winner.

opkossy

The only thing the guy you quoted is right about is that
*rereads post*

Oh wait. Nevermind. I thought he said somewhere that this was dated a bit in there somewhere before saying not to read this. Oh well, technically not a necro due to being a sticky, but it'd be nice if someone were to revamp this for modern day archers.

TheMVP - Heavens Tear

I dont see what the drama is about, my post is pretty accurate, sages hit farther they have 2 meters longer range, sages hit harder, they have more power per regualar shot than demon, Sage archers have longer stuns 1.5 more seconds, and pretty much every other sage skill is better than demon, except for Triple spark and Quickshot which only works 50% of the time, So demon quick shot is really only better 50% of the time.. If someone wants to get real in depth I guess they could make a case that the demon barrage is a liltte better as well, but really isnt that much difference. So i think its very accurate to say that sage archer is way better than demon if your gonna choose now days. I cant even imagine anyone making a case that demon is better because sage Archers are better in almost every skill, so once again nobody really needs to read this thread just pick sage archer. Unless they were to make demon quickshot 100% theres no reason to even consider demon archer because the only advatage u would have is triple spark and that doesnt even come close to making up for the longer range, natural power, and longer stuns that sages have. so if anybody wants to tell me I'm wrong or wants to make a case that demon is better I love to hear it cuz its not even close.

I'm giving you a unbiased honest opinion, I'm a demon archer and I got stuck with it cuz i had all my skills before the update, long ago before r9rr people needed a little extra power from the triple spark to get quick kills and sage quickshot was garbage so demon was right choice back then to get kills quicker, but now days with r9rr everybody is 1 hit anyway and the update gave sages longer stuns, and a quickshot which now days almost garuntees double crit hits along with all the other advantages sages already had. So with the new r9rr longer range and more natural power are much more important than it use to be as well as the update giving them longer stuns and better quickshots. Sages are clearly by far better and its not even close. anybody chosing demon now days is putting themselfs at a huge disadvantage.

opkossy

Firstly, that's your opinion.

Second of all, we're on the archer forums. If you wish to try and support your opinion as factual instead, provide the relevant math to back yourself up.

Thirdly, there isn't any drama at all. You posted your opinion without anything to back it up. Someone disagreed. A person having a different opinion than you do and voicing as such does not constitute drama.




That said, outside of ideal paper PvP conditions, the 2 meter range advantage for sage is negligible at best. The same can be said for the absolutely miniscule base advantage from bow mastery when we choose to ignore crits, attack rate, and so on. Moving aside, most skills are horrible regardless of culti to a point where trying to compare them is senseless. On top of that, a large portion of the remaining skills wind up being fairly even and more based on playstyle preference. Moving past that, most of the demon skills that are considered superior to sage cannot be replicated by sages without burning valuable resources (or using arbitrary theoretical scenarios) while the sage skills are usually things a demon can come very close to.

... and all that is before taking into account that in the modern game, culti matters far less than gear/cards/etc and player skill as a super endgame character that hasn't even touched their culti 89 can easily wipe the floor with a large portion of their respective servers even if said portion had all their level 11/primal/level 100 skills.

TheMVP - Heavens Tear

OPKossy wrote: »

Firstly, that's your opinion.

Second of all, we're on the archer forums. If you wish to try and support your opinion as factual instead, provide the relevant math to back yourself up.

Thirdly, there isn't any drama at all. You posted your opinion without anything to back it up. Someone disagreed. A person having a different opinion than you do and voicing as such does not constitute drama.




That said, outside of ideal paper PvP conditions, the 2 meter range advantage for sage is negligible at best. The same can be said for the absolutely miniscule base advantage from bow mastery when we choose to ignore crits, attack rate, and so on. Moving aside, most skills are horrible regardless of culti to a point where trying to compare them is senseless. On top of that, a large portion of the remaining skills wind up being fairly even and more based on playstyle preference. Moving past that, most of the demon skills that are considered superior to sage cannot be replicated by sages without burning valuable resources (or using arbitrary theoretical scenarios) while the sage skills are usually things a demon can come very close to.

... and all that is before taking into account that in the modern game, culti matters far less than gear/cards/etc and player skill as a super endgame character that hasn't even touched their culti 89 can easily wipe the floor with a large portion of their respective servers even if said portion had all their level 11/primal/level 100 skills.

I would say that 2 meter advantage is huge and not in anyway miniscule, whether your facing a demon archer, bm, or barb iin particular its definately a nice bonus to have, I would agree with you about the bow mastery skill being miniscule, and also agree with you that archer skills as a whole are horrible and most arent used very often. However the sage stun 1.5 sec advantage is also huge against every class, it doesnt sound like a lot only 1.5 sec more but archer skills take so long to channel etc that any extra time stunned is huge. And you can make the case that the differences are miniscule but demons dont really have anything that is clearly better than sage thats used a lot and useful except for triple spark and quickshot 50% of the time. As far as playing style etc your at a disadvatage with demon archer other than triple spark which u could use 3 times in a row by sparking, then awaken, and then herbs or genie for 3rd one. but thats really all that demons have and i think clear choice is sage in almost every way. I mean you can even make a case that the triple spark differnce is miniscue as well, sage triple spark is not weak by any means. I also would agree that gear is much more important than culti but my main thread was for newer players who were trying to decide between sage and demon archer and I thought I did back up my opinions by stating why they were better. I'm not trying to get in a huge discusiion this sittuation to that vs this gear to that gear and providing numbers damge etc. I think its pretty clear sage is better now days and trying to help the newer players out

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Sage/Demon has always been very close on Archers. Hence the endless debate.

Prior to New Horizons and after the skill balancing these are some of the benefits sage had over demon;
-Higher crit rate with QS
-Stronger debuffs with SE
-Chi
-Longer stun
-0.15 attack muliplier with mastery

Post New Horizons;
-Everyone got crit passives, archers have so much crit it makes little difference between the cultivations
-Defence passives can't be purged and effectively nerfed debuffing of all kinds

With the extra attack multiplier from reawakening and the skill damage passive the difference between sage and demon attack power is even more neglible than before.

The charm bypass potential of demon quickshot when it procs is so underrated, it's one of the biggest perks of demon, and is the reason so many AAs call archers hax. I've killed fully endgame mystics with this once purged. Even a proc'ed QS that triggers a purge is so hard to react to as you hit so fast.

Demon boa is far superior to sage. This and QS are probably the two most commonly used skills in mass pvp and demon is far better for both.

Demon lightning strike never misses.

The only thing that sage has going for it now is the chi and slightly longer stun. The chi can be managed with TA spam and the occasional CEruption. Not worth sacrificing the clear benefits of demon.

TheMVP - Heavens Tear

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage/Demon has always been very close on Archers. Hence the endless debate.

Prior to New Horizons and after the skill balancing these are some of the benefits sage had over demon;
-Higher crit rate with QS
-Stronger debuffs with SE
-Chi
-Longer stun
-0.15 attack muliplier with mastery

Post New Horizons;
-Everyone got crit passives, archers have so much crit it makes little difference between the cultivations
-Defence passives can't be purged and effectively nerfed debuffing of all kinds

With the extra attack multiplier from reawakening and the skill damage passive the difference between sage and demon attack power is even more neglible than before.

The charm bypass potential of demon quickshot when it procs is so underrated, it's one of the biggest perks of demon, and is the reason so many AAs call archers hax. I've killed fully endgame mystics with this once purged. Even a proc'ed QS that triggers a purge is so hard to react to as you hit so fast.

Demon boa is far superior to sage. This and QS are probably the two most commonly used skills in mass pvp and demon is far better for both.

Demon lightning strike never misses.

The only thing that sage has going for it now is the chi and slightly longer stun. The chi can be managed with TA spam and the occasional CEruption. Not worth sacrificing the clear benefits of demon.

you left out the 2 meters longer range that sages have as well, but I do agree with you that when Demon QS procs it does even the playing field between sages and demons however its still only 50% so Demons archers are still at a disadvantage, barrage is situational and can be canceled easily by the targeted player with genie before u ever even get to see any advantages from it and sage Barrage hits 0.15 harder with the attack multiplier and demon barrage is quicker so really isnt that much better especially if barrage isnt up for that long. sages longer range, extra stun time, and 0.15 attack muliplier with mastery are advatges your gonna get with sage not to mention sage quickshot is almost a garunteed double crit strike now days. If they made demon QS 100% then i could see choosing Demon but now days sage seems to be much better in almost every way other than triple spark

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

TheMVP - Heavens Tear wrote: »

you left out the 2 meters longer range that sages have as well, but I do agree with you that when Demon QS procs it does even the playing field between sages and demons however its still only 50% so Demons archers are still at a disadvantage, barrage is situational and can be canceled easily by the targeted player with genie before u ever even get to see any advantages from it and sage Barrage hits 0.15 harder with the attack multiplier and demon barrage is quicker so really isnt that much better especially if barrage isnt up for that long. sages longer range, extra stun time, and 0.15 attack muliplier with mastery are advatges your gonna get with sage not to mention sage quickshot is almost a garunteed double crit strike now days. If they made demon QS 100% then i could see choosing Demon but now days sage seems to be much better in almost every way other than triple spark

Not trying to insult you here but you seem to have a misunderstanding of math in general. The actual difference in damage is 2% sage vs demon in terms of masteries for my archer. I can prove this using very simple math if you would like. With everyone getting an extra attack multiplier this % difference has gotten smaller since the NH update.

When you say double crit this again makes no sense. Demon archer crit caps at around 85% and sage at 95%. Due to the crit passive. This is what we mean by diminishing returns. The difference between say 75 and 85 was noticeable, but between 85 and 95 it barely makes a difference. Again easily proved with simple math.

The point about barrage, see 1st point about damage difference, and also when a barrage is only normally up for a few seconds I would rather get an extra tick of a barrage in than do 2% more damage on one less tick. Ie. Demon could do 300% damage and sage does 204% damage to illustrate what I mean.

Its also interesting that you mention triple sparks, I would pick sage for the damage reduction and the fact that sages have more chi to even consider triple sparking in pvp/tw. Demon triple spark = gank me pls.

Hopefully this clarification is helpful, if not for yourself then at least for other readers.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

I'd consider going more in-depth than this, but this topic has been covered so many damn times (including multiple times in my own archer guide and subsequent discussion) that I can't be bothered to give you more than a general overview of why you're, well, frankly, completely wrong.


(1) Sage stun lasts 1.5s longer: Granted. One of the few benefits sage can actually claim.

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(2) Sage has a chi advantage: You technically didn't claim this, but I'll throw it out since it's a common argument (DSX mentioned it above) and, like (1), is an advantage sage can actually reasonably claim to have. That said, a properly-played demon archer will still have plenty of chi generation to sustain themselves -- instant take aims, cloud eruption, awaken.

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(3) 2 meter range advantage is "significant": Completely false. The vast majority of the time, you do not want to be shooting someone from 100% max range, because they can just... y'know... walk out of range (once your stun wears off anyway). Shooting from less-than-maximum range is the norm for typical group PvP / TW. Even in situations where you are "utilizing" that range advantage, 2 meters is covered in approximately 350 milliseconds by most classes (even less by barbs, venos, or anyone on a flyer or using a speed boost). Absolutely none of these people will want to be at the edge of your attack range -- they will either want to be closer, to hit you back, or further, to avoid being hit. Likely total advantage time: ~350ms. Not significant.

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(4) Sage has a damage advantage: Per hit? This is technically "true", but is very misleading, as DSX started to touch on. Sage mastery gives a 15% higher weapon damage multipler, but you also have to account for the multiplier from dex when considering this (and buffs, if you have them):

Typical 900-dex demon archer: 1 + (900/150) + 0.75 = 7.75
Typical 900-dex sage archer: 1 + (900/150) + 0.90 = 7.90

Actual sage damage-per-hit advantage: (7.9)/(7.75) ~= 2% sage advantage


Demons get 14% bonus crit: 4% from passives+white wings, and 10% from the proc on stun/STA. Sages get 20% bonus crit from quickshot. Since demon gets this proc from stunning arrow and sage gets it from quickshot, both should have their crit buffs up the majority of the time, so we'll compare that case.

Typical 900-dex demon archer: ~88% (74% base + 4% passive + 10% proc) crit with stun/sta proc
Typical 900-dex sage archer: ~94% (74% base + 20% proc) crit with qs passive

Actual sage damage advantage from crit: 1.94/1.88 = 3.2%


Demons also get one more advantage from their skills that sages don't have in their arsenal at all: demon quickshot's aps proc, which gives a straight 30% aps boost 50% of the time (and thus also gives a higher chance to purge in that time as well).

Typical endgame archer: 0.83 aps
Typical endgame demon archer w/ qs proc: 1.18 aps

Actual demon dps advantage from quickshot (not counting extra purge benefit): 1.18/0.83 = 42.2%. You may half this if you insist, to 21.1%, although this is not realistic since a failed quickshot can be re-attempted almost immediately. Assuming for the sake of simplicity that every other quickshot fails, 3s (from cd) of aps boost is lost for every 6s gained, so quickshot's bonus should be reduced by approximately a third (3 / (3+6)) to account for time spent trying for a working qs: [(1.18-0.83)*(2/3)]+0.83 = 1.06 average aps for a demon.


Taking all of these together, we get --

Sage: 7.9 (base damage) * 1.94 (crit multiplier) * 0.83 (aps) = 12.72x weapon damage per second on average
Demon: 7.75 (base damage) * 1.88 (crit multiplier) * 1.06 (average aps) = 15.44x weapon damage per second on average

Demon dps advantage: 15.44/12.72 = 21.4%

This is, of course, assuming you are using autoattacks for most of your damage... but you're an archer, so of course you are.

Skill addon damage differences are, as has been mentioned, neglibile since they suck to begin with anyway.

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(5) Barrage comparison --

Demons hit 16.67% faster, and thus demon boa does 16.67% more damage on average.
Sage takes 33% reduced damage -- but this is mostly negligible. The first thing your enemy is going to do when they see you in barrage is knock you out of it -- interrupt or stun. This is true regardless of cultivation. Then they will kill you.

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(6) Sage gets an extra debuff from stormrage, as DSX mentioned. This is a legitimate claim, but again, it's expensive (2 sparks); and with everyone having 56% bonus defense from passives, debuffs are much weaker than they used to be.

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(7) Sage frost arrow does water damage. This is dependent on you not taking Frost Splash (which is worthless anyway, so okay). Additionally, the added benefit from sage frost arrow is small even if you are skillspamming someone (you can easily fill demon's cooldown gaps with stun and instant take aim), and an archer's utility as a skillspammer is extremely questionable at best in any case.

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(8) Demon lightning strike never misses. Sage has no comparable 100%-accuracy option, and demon LS is particularly useful against sins (to avoid missing that last hit) or archers that have used condor (though with the loss of instant-cast animations, condor isn't always immediately noticeable).

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(9) Triple spark is just about never used as an archer in mass PvP, since your chi is better used elsewhere, and sparking is bound to draw the attention of everyone within sight. Differences not something I'd consider significant.

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Putting the actually significant differences all together, in rough order of importance:

Sage gets a 1.5s longer stun, slightly more chi generation, an expensive debuff on Stormrage, and water damage on frost arrow.

Demon gets 21% higher dps during typical use (stun+qs and auto), 17% more dps while barraging, easier purge chance from higher aps, and a 100% accuracy metal skill.


If you honestly still think Sage is better than Demon after seeing the above... then frankly, no argument would sway you, and this discussion is pointless anyway.

TheMVP - Heavens Tear

I understand your point and its a valid one. To shorten it, your basicly saying over time Demons will do more damage than sages mostly because of QS and rest of skills are minor differences or not enough to make up for the extra damage demons will do with QS when it works and i can agree to that. I also agree with you about the 2 meters longer range and how people will move out of 100% max range, however I will make the case that demons have the same problems with 2 meters less to work with. so maybe its not super significant since most fights or situtations arent at max range but it is a nice advantage to have to go along with the longer stuns and actual 2% more damage on basicly everything else from weapon damage multipler. Its just hard to give up all those advantages that sages have for a skill thats 50% of the time especially considering that sage QS is pretty decent as well, and the 50% of the time it doesnt work that sage QS is better even just for the extra 2% actual damage if theres not much difference on crits. But I do agree with you that over time demons will do more damage and sage and demons are closer than i first thought especially considering that when QS does work its a few extra chances at a weapon proc which i thought was a very good point by you. Demon dps advantage: 15.44/12.72 = 21.4% seems pretty high doesnt seem like demons got that big of damage advantage so i'm not so sure its as high as all that, but with so many variables pretty hard to accurately determine an average number, or to be able to put a number how valuable extra stun time is to determine how much more damage a sage will do with extra stun time as opposed to demon would probably be on defense during that time etc.. From a straight up damage perspective like your numbers indicate demon would be much better but from a playing perspective it seems to be a lot closer than that. Maybe just a case of grass looks greener on the other side for me idk cuz i am demon

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Insult Comedy is more convincing than math b:avoid

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

I dont read those walls when they arent divided into chapters properly. As for Jarkhen, I would like to point out couple of things I miss being sage. Still, with how much we talked bout subject, you know I do agree on demon being better option outside of undergeared archers whose only purpose is supporting real DDs.

Sage stun, its not that much longer but you can feel the difference in length. Might be the fact 90% archers demon and they dont expect sage stun and are more or less caught pants down by the longer stun. All in all its a good point for sage, not as huge as some make seem though.

And I miss my magic macro. It was beutiful. QS + metal skills + FA. Like no downtime, full uptime on crit from QS. Now when I have to kill p.immunes my archer just stood there silly till I added auto on macro so it hits those 3ks when metal skills on cd.

Still the QS proc, never missing LS and shell on wingspan alone are more than enough to pick demon over sage. You also forgot the passives going to lvl 10 soonish, which will have impact on demon being stronger in comparison.

Last time I triple sparked in PvP was when I just had to drop saiosaur and I could get to position where she didnt see me I believe. Thats more of result of being outgeared distinctly and trying to drop that +12 cleric whacking on your flag carrier than actually considering triple spark valid most of the time.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Sage archers can just use windshield and hey presto the debate flies wide open.
This is like trying to justify APS because archer skill damage is so ****.
Personally I think both cultis have their ups and downs. Demon is **** easy to play though seriously.

Gear matters more than culti.

Playstyle may depend on culti but play style also matters more than culti.

In actual reality you could role either and be just as good because you can't put value on being able to stun lock better, damage out of demon archer range (which I have done and roled many demon archers who stand there stupidly trying to attack and doing nothing) or stacking pdef/Mdef debuff with blood vow, or the fact that chi is easier to generate.

In the end - archer is statistically the weakest class in the game by so much that even the maths to support either culti being better is rendered such a small insignificant difference to real world non theoretical performance.

Verenor - Morai

When comparing Sage Vs. Demon, throwing it on "playstyle" or "gear" seems rather futile. It's like talking about off-roading in 4x4's and then say "yeh well it goes faster on highways anyways".

Whole point of this, and many other threads is comparing purely Sage and Demon, neglecting every other possible variable (meaning gear and skills of player) and with the math from Jarkhen, it pretty much puts an end to that debate.
The more NH-content expands, the less useful the debuffs from sage become, and the crit from QS might very soon reach 100%+ with new passive levels, rendering the advantage of Sage QS vs Demon stun/aim low even lesser.

But to me it doesn't matter if sage or demon is better or worse, I preferred Demon and I never once regretted it.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

the whole playstyle argument on its own is just LOL

Socqar - Lost City

Verenor - Morai wrote: »

When comparing Sage Vs. Demon, throwing it on "playstyle" or "gear" seems rather futile. It's like talking about off-roading in 4x4's and then say "yeh well it goes faster on highways anyways".

Whole point of this, and many other threads is comparing purely Sage and Demon, neglecting every other possible variable (meaning gear and skills of player) and with the math from Jarkhen, it pretty much puts an end to that debate.
The more NH-content expands, the less useful the debuffs from sage become, and the crit from QS might very soon reach 100%+ with new passive levels, rendering the advantage of Sage QS vs Demon stun/aim low even lesser.

But to me it doesn't matter if sage or demon is better or worse, I preferred Demon and I never once regretted it.

Only thing we as demon miss is Frost Arrow... and I?m not sure it's that useful? (never tried myself xD) Does it really hit like one of our metal mage skills or...? I just put Kiss of Snake in the middle of magic combos for thse nasty DOT... better than a "Resist" on mobs xD

Otherwise, Demon all the way, the devate was over since NH came

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

Only thing we as demon miss is Frost Arrow... and I?m not sure it's that useful? (never tried myself xD) Does it really hit like one of our metal mage skills or...? I just put Kiss of Snake in the middle of magic combos for thse nasty DOT... better than a "Resist" on mobs xD

Otherwise, Demon all the way, the devate was over since NH came

It hits bout as hard as LS w/o metal debuff.

Socqar - Lost City

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

It hits bout as hard as LS w/o metal debuff.

Thanks for the feedback. The only good point I see on sage nowadays is Frost Arrow... quite a huge one if it hits this hard for such a few cost, making posible a pure mag combo anyway, great against HA thingies... Oh well, sticking to demon anyway :P The general outcome seems to favour Demon too much to bother about one single skill

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. The only good point I see on sage nowadays is Frost Arrow... quite a huge one if it hits this hard for such a few cost, making posible a pure mag combo anyway, great against HA thingies... Oh well, sticking to demon anyway :P The general outcome seems to favour Demon too much to bother about one single skill

The real tasty aspect of sage frost arrow is that it deals water damage.

Heart of Steel is almost a staple genie skill HAs like BMs will use it right after a purge and close to death to resist the incoming LS.

Sage frost arrow used at that point = gg

Jaabg - Sanctuary

TheMVP - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I would say that 2 meter advantage is huge and not in anyway miniscule, whether your facing a demon archer, bm, or barb iin particular its definately a nice bonus to have.

Let me give you my bm take on archer, 2m range advantage. I use my running skills, leaps, tele, i am on your archer 24/7. If i am not using running skills, range does not matter, because you are kiting me, if you kite from 20m or 22m it does not make a difference to my bm. I take the same damage. When i close that distance, it will be in an instant, that the 2m are not even worth considering.

Now that we can stun lock again b:dirty, archers are not scary.

The above is in tw and nw only.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Let me give you my bm take on archer, 2m range advantage. I use my running skills, leaps, tele, i am on your archer 24/7. If i am not using running skills, range does not matter, because you are kiting me, if you kite from 20m or 22m it does not make a difference to my bm. I take the same damage. When i close that distance, it will be in an instant, that the 2m are not even worth considering.

Now that we can stun lock again b:dirty, archers are not scary.

The above is in tw and nw only.

Archers were always stun-lockable b:question

Jaabg - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

Archers were always stun-lockable b:question

In mass pvp, archers don't come alone b:cry. Them casters, you manage to stun and leave alone, but some wise sin pops out to aps the caster only to get one shot later, and get me killed while i am chasing the archer.

Now i can stun the caster and chase the archer for glory and death. Mostly ending in death b:victory.