Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

crusty0921

Devoted
I appreciate your saterical whit and look forward to reading more of your posts ty for the intro to archers

/Radamanthys - Sanctuary

hehe I agree totally with you, good job, but is funny how u wrote this like u were nuisance.

These bad archers do that the good archers are better.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

This thread is classic, but a necro is a necro b:chuckle

Teppeii - Dreamweaver

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This thread is classic, but a necro is a necro b:chuckle

Ah but comeon, there's gotta be exclusions.

I just read this the other day to reenstate myself to choose demon. And got a decent laugh out of it too =3

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Request a sticky and mayhaps with enough support.
b:avoid

Devoted - Lost City

I doubt it can be deemed sticky material as it does seem 'nice.' I'm okay as long as it doesn't get locked for being a 'necro' or it would take away the whole intention of why this thread was made. It's a guide not a question so it is relevant no matter how old it is..

Illyana - Dreamweaver

It would be nice to see Devoted go at this with a 2.0 now that new gear is available, clawchers are somewhat common, skill descriptions for both paths are more clear, etc.

I somehow fear that the guide will read much like "Demon FTW, Sage QQ", but its still entertaining b:laugh

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Old/Necro or not, it kinda made me choose hell over heaven. Sage clawchers might be better if they can attain that 5 aps without the spark but otherwise I find being a demon so much better.

Even in pve, quickshot, stun, masteries and demon spark makes life so much easier. Nothing like killing 5 mobs (lower lvl mobs) or 2~3 (equal levelled mobs) in 15 seconds without getting hit or seeing an increased life mob drop within 6 seconds (stun + qs proc FTW).

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Most everyone will say "Cultivation X" is better than "Cultivation Y" simply because they have no experience with the latter.

It would be just as simple for me to say that stun + regular shots = dead mobs.

I know some very talented demon archers, but if asked, I will always tell people that sage has the potential to be better than demon for both PvE and PvP, so what it boils down to is style preference, skill, and the amount of time/coin put into a character.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

I would say its the time/coin u put in.

angellicdeity

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Most everyone will say "Cultivation X" is better than "Cultivation Y" simply because they have no experience with the latter.

It would be just as simple for me to say that stun + regular shots = dead mobs.

I know some very talented demon archers, but if asked, I will always tell people that sage has the potential to be better than demon for both PvE and PvP, so what it boils down to is style preference, skill, and the amount of time/coin put into a character.

Sage PvE wise has the potential to be better only because you cant exceed 5 attacks per second. Thus Demon spark is useless, and Sage Spark wins because it has damage reduction.


Sage PvP wise will never reach the same potential as Demon archers.


Bows or ranged weapons cant max at 5 attacks per second. Demon can increase their attack speed, increase their critical rate, and using only the typical skills an archer would use in PvP.



Lets face it, claw archers will never be viable in real PvP. Archers have no melee stuns making them easy pickings for any melee Sins, BM's, Barbarians. Similarly good luck beating a competent magic class whose nukes will kill you if you spend time running to them to claw them.




Bows and ranged weapons are what matter in PvP. And Sage is behind Demon in every aspect when it comes to ranged weaponary.



The rest of the reasons why Sage fails are on the first post of this long thread.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

I've had a different personal experience PvP-wise to comparably equipped Demon archers, of course you can see that as I'm posting with my character account.

Are you a demon or a sage, and what makes you so sure?

angellicdeity

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I've had a different personal experience PvP-wise to comparably equipped Demon archers, of course you can see that as I'm posting with my character account.

Are you a demon or a sage, and what makes you so sure?

My archer is Demon.

And this is not the account where I have all my perfect world characters for good reason. With the invention of the PWI Profile system your account name is now exposed to the little hackers that may or may not be in game. The whole purpose of a forum name previously was to hide your real login so even if some hacker knew your name they wouldn't know your account.


I'm very sure. Up until 92 or 99 sage may have equal footing. After 92 Demons get Stunning Arrow, and 99 demons get Sharpened Tooth.


Both increase critical rate by 10%. At 89 demons can get quickshot.


30% increase in attack rate means with all other things being equal - demons get off 1 every round of 3 shots. Note: increasing attack rate with bows is very much different. 30% Increase actually yields more than a 30% increase in most cases.


So when 3-4 arrows are fired by a sage, 1 additional more is done by a demon. The same applies to sparks.



I've PvPed with sage archers, both 1 on 1 in open PK environments, and in TW's. Although its not a 100% win ratio, 4 times out of 5 I've won simply due to the increase in critical rate which breaks their charms on the first hit or two.



Demons also have Lightning strike which never misses at 89. This is invaluable in finishing off archers, assassins, and even BM's whose higher DEX can create misses in PvP. This is exspecially important when dealing with charms. If you dont kill them off, their charm will tick making your entire endeavour useless. And against those classes there is a chance you'll miss that one critical hit that makes or breaks a win.


Demon? Well that 1 critical hit is pretty much guaranteed - less your opponites ability to stun.



With all things being equal, once archers reach a critical point in interval reduction gear - sage shines less in PvP. Quickshot and Demon Spark have the effect of bumping up a demon archer several attack rate levels:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=279561


With 0.86 attack rate, demon archers hit 1.25 attacks per second with quickshot, and 1.18 with demon spark. The highest you can go is possibly go is 1.00 attacks per second with the best interval gears. Demons with Demon spark hits 1.33 attacks per second, and 1.43 attacks per second with quickshot.


Why does it work this way? Demon spark reduces the seconds per attack by the percentage amount.


Sage will never be able to make-up the difference with all things being equal.




Furthermore, from experience in large group PvP (both TW's and open PK wars) attack rate is the most important. Exspecially when you have Soul Shatter or Spirit Blackhole. The more attacks you make the more chances you'll debuff and critical.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

angellicdeity wrote: »

Sage will never be able to make-up the difference with all things being equal.

Well, then I know where you're coming from, and of course, everyone builds their character to suit their needs. I'm not suggesting that claws are a PvP tool, however they certainly can do the trick when a non-brambled heavy comes at you. Generally, a bow will kill them faster and keep you alive longer, but when someone gets inside your effective attack range, it becomes a viable option.

My concern about the rationale of end-game demon archers who say "Demon is better" because QS procs and then its a "OMGWTFBBQ minigun". Half the time QS doesn't proc, your enemy's stun will wear off and the player you're attempting to kill has a chance to escape.

Personally, my archer has a base attack rate of 1.0/second without the aid of genie skills. Since we all know the only real advantage of high interval without claws is killing squishes (you use elemental damage for heavies), I postulate that sage stun -> regular attacks is a better combo because primarily you're not reliant on QS. The problem with QS is it has a cast and doesn't always proc. As a demon when you stun -> QS, and by the time you're ready to fire your first shot post-QS, your stun is nearly over. 3.5-1.6=1.9. Let's give demon the benefit of the doubt and say QS DOES proc and you're left with 1.9 seconds of stun remaining to light 'em up. So, 1/2 the time you'll Stun -> QS -> 2.3x shots before stun wears off, the user pots, uses an IG, plume shells, runs away or uses some other skill.

A sage will Stun -> regular shots. That means in the time a demon has attacked 5 times, a sage will stun -> 4.5 times. The demon will crit more, but the DPH from sage will be harder from effects of bow mastery and blazing arrow.

There is no doubt in my mind that 90% of squishies not in a plume shell will be dead in both scenarios, however, when you combine the additional chance to crit from Demon stun, the lethality of the combo only exceeds sage in the event of a proc.

Translation: For most real life PvP scenarios, the only time demon is better is when it procs, other than that, sage wins out. Additionally, sage does not have to rely on "chance skill", instead their attack pattern will not change.

As for non-squishy HAs, elemental damage is a better choice, and strictly in terms of PvP, a sage will win out here. With genie anti-metal effect skills, killing a HA becomes much harder. Sage Frost arrow nicely fills the void, despite what page 1 would suggest.

Demons are quick to toute demon lightning strike as being awesome because it never misses. Are you kidding? Evasion has long since been broken in this game-- even more so since 2x 50%+ accuracy rings have come out. To top it off, it increases the cool-down time.

For the record, EVERYTHING I SAY IN BOLD UNDERLINE RED LARGE FONT IS TRUE, because it just is.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well, then I know where you're coming from, and of course, everyone builds their character to suit their needs. I'm not suggesting that claws are a PvP tool, however they certainly can do the trick when a non-brambled heavy comes at you. Generally, a bow will kill them faster and keep you alive longer, but when someone gets inside your effective attack range, it becomes a viable option.

My concern about the rationale of end-game demon archers who say "Demon is better" because QS procs and then its a "OMGWTFBBQ minigun". Half the time QS doesn't proc, your enemy's stun will wear off and the player you're attempting to kill has a chance to escape.

Personally, my archer has a base attack rate of 1.0/second without the aid of genie skills. Since we all know the only real advantage of high interval without claws is killing squishes (you use elemental damage for heavies), I postulate that sage stun -> regular attacks is a better combo because primarily you're not reliant on QS. The problem with QS is it has a cast and doesn't always proc. As a demon when you stun -> QS, and by the time you're ready to fire your first shot post-QS, your stun is nearly over. 3.5-1.6=1.9. Let's give demon the benefit of the doubt and say QS DOES proc and you're left with 1.9 seconds of stun remaining to light 'em up. So, 1/2 the time you'll Stun -> QS -> 3x shots before stun wears off, the user pots, uses an IG, plume shells, runs away or uses some other skill.

A sage will Stun -> regular shots. That means in the time a demon has attacked 5 times, a sage will stun -> 4.5 times. The demon will crit more, but the DPH from sage will be harder from effects of bow mastery and blazing arrow.

There is no doubt in my mind that 90% of squishies not in a plume shell will be dead in both scenarios, however, when you combine the additional chance to crit from Demon stun, the lethality of the combo only exceeds sage in the event of a proc.

Translation: For most real life PvP scenarios, the only time demon is better is when it procs, other than that, sage wins out. Additionally, sage does not have to rely on "chance skill", instead their attack pattern will not change.

As for non-squishy HAs, elemental damage is a better choice, and strictly in terms of PvP, a sage will win out here. With genie anti-metal effect skills, killing a HA becomes much harder. Sage Frost arrow nicely fills the void, despite what page 1 would suggest.

Demons are quick to toute demon lightning strike as being awesome because it never misses. Are you kidding? Evasion has long since been broken in this game-- even more so since 2x 50%+ accuracy rings have come out. To top it off, it increases the cool-down time.

For the record, EVERYTHING I SAY IN BOLD UNDERLINE RED LARGE FONT IS TRUE, because it just is.

i agree with u totally but not u are the only who tryed tell the facts and still not everybody able to understand it b:surrender

Zhadi - Archosaur

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

i agree with u totally but not u are the only who tryed tell the facts and still not everybody able to understand it b:surrender

the demon side argument is stupid because theyre not using all the demon skills that are superior...

and the sage side fails because they are ignoring them and only putting very specific situational scenarios where of course they have the advantage.

the fact that all demon archers are so sure that their side is best and never regret going demon tells the story..

i see many sage archers who say "i should have went demon" or "its just based on what the person wants to do" shows how even they are insecure about the path they chose.

if that doesn't tell you anything, then go sage and see for yourself.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

That's just it, Zhadi. How many demons do you see who questioned their cultivation path? Few. For some reason, the appeal of QS, demon spark, or perhaps simply this thread makes for a lop-sided distribution. Who knows.

What I do know, is that I've watched many many hours of TW footage as I've recorded myself and watched footage recorded by others, and I simply cannot see any practical reason why people should choose demon over sage.

I think the thing that gets me the most is that all the skill description errors (some of which are listed on the front page here in this guide) are erroneous in a way that makes demon better than it is and sage weaker than it is. I read this guide before going sage, and now having experienced an end-game sage with all skills (yes, even stormrage), I just can't see how it'd ever be better.

Sage wins out in PvE because of the ability to 5.0 APS claws and sage STA.

Sage wins out when it comes to chi building. Don't give me this level 100 Awaken BS. If you're in a real TW, you'll have that skill on cooldown nearly all the time (if you're worth your salt).

A end-game sage has stronger hits and if built correctly, has a higher base attack rate than a demon to compensate for a lack of QS. Yes, demon archers can get 1.0 base Atk rate with a bow too, but they'll lose out on damage reduction and defense getting there (in terms of both PvP and PvE).

Demons will say that they get 20% boost to critical from STA and stun, however these do not stack. I'll take sage stun and sage STA any day over demon. I'll also take an extra few meters over every other class in the game over dealing 2x damage once every 100 hits. You know the greatest thing about a sage archer in TW? Tab kill, tab kill-- no need to take a few unnecessary steps to meet a demon archer at a range he can hit you at.

In terms of bow use, every sage skill benefits from the weapon masteries and fire damage (save for winged pledge which does not get fire damage added to it).

You demons don't make any sense. Stop drinking the kool-aid and writing in red text. The difference between the two cultivations are so razor thin, the only thing you do in trying to convince others that one is better than the other is to support your own choice you made long ago. They're fundamentally different and both will find advantageous ways to use their skill arsenals. The "Demon is better than Sage and I'm not listening" plbbbbtbtbtt! defense has been far overdrawn.

Cavalieri - Sanctuary

lol... wait and see how insecure you get when 99% of the people you meet tell you you're an idiot for going sage...

EDIT: @Zhadi

Illyana - Dreamweaver

@Cavalieri You know, its not an if, but a when. b:chuckle

However, I just did something interesting. Everyone posting from an archer account here that was 89+ was opened up in a tab. Having paid special attention to those who identify their cultivations, I witnessed no real difference between sage and demon archers in terms of PvP kills.

There is only one archer who has posted within this thread with more PvP kills than I do (Chaotiic, from a PvP server no less). I think that means that in the very least I know what I'm talking about when it comes to PK.

That means that either demon archers don't care to weigh in here, I'm an exceptionally talented "Fail Sage Archer", or demons talk more than they kill, or... whatever conclusion you wish to draw from that. b:chuckle

Teppeii - Dreamweaver

what is this i dont even

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Teppeii - Dreamweaver wrote: »

what is this i dont even

this is pretty much it here

Devoted - Lost City

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Cavalieri You know, its not an if, but a when. b:chuckle

However, I just did something interesting. Everyone posting from an archer account here that was 89+ was opened up in a tab. Having paid special attention to those who identify their cultivations, I witnessed no real difference between sage and demon archers in terms of PvP kills.

There is only one archer who has posted within this thread with more PvP kills than I do (Chaotiic, from a PvP server no less). I think that means that in the very least I know what I'm talking about when it comes to PK.

That means that either demon archers don't care to weigh in here, I'm an exceptionally talented "Fail Sage Archer", or demons talk more than they kill, or... whatever conclusion you wish to draw from that. b:chuckle

Profile doesn't display the correct number of kills. I was once on the top 50 pvp rankings and I had 2.5k kills.

This also says I have 800 more than you and my KD is 2.9 to your 2.1.

Either way, kills really doesn't show how good you are. Wel has over 12k and most know they aren't the best archer.

Quilue - Sanctuary

I don't know where you get this "Demons think they have 20% more crit" from. it's 12, as people have said repeatedly. The trade off is 12% crits over more base damage.

I looked at the weapon damage of a +12 g15 bow, 2 garnets, 2 attack rings, and I looked at the difference between the 2 masteries. It comes out to about 516 more base damage.

Now on to Blazing Arrow: 10% more fire damage...except attack rings are not included. Your extra damage is about 300.

This is 800 more base damage than Demon. Demons don't need QS to outdamage you, they have just a tad more chance to crit to sort of compensate. If I'm ever unfortunate enough to be hitting 750 on a well-geared wizard, it means a similar Sage would hit about 790, except I have a crit advantage from Stunning Arrow.

2 Meters in range advantage: Stop pretending it makes a huge difference. I love tabbing and hitting people without having to move in TW too, except in the rare rare rare rare circumstance that I've selected a Sage at 34 meters rather than 32.

Sage has a real advantage in STA, I'll admit that the 20% debuff is very powerful.

I'm not here to bash Sages, I'm here to remind everyone to put things in perspective. Just as you pointed out that QS' 1.6s cast + chan negates a lot of stun time and is random on top of that, I'm reminding everyone that Sages have about 800 more damage per hit and 2 more range at the cost of 12 extra crits. Also, please elaborate on you "attack speed" argument, what does a Demon lose as opposed to Sage if they also have rank8 and have 1 attack/s with normal hits?

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Zhadi - Archosaur wrote: »

the demon side argument is stupid because theyre not using all the demon skills that are superior...

and the sage side fails because they are ignoring them and only putting very specific situational scenarios where of course they have the advantage.

the fact that all demon archers are so sure that their side is best and never regret going demon tells the story..

i see many sage archers who say "i should have went demon" or "its just based on what the person wants to do" shows how even they are insecure about the path they chose.

if that doesn't tell you anything, then go sage and see for yourself.

in pw ms where is my ea have more sage archer and i never heard anybody qqing about that :P

i like pretty much like others too without sine aps, just thats all.
(yea range is situation deped like qs too, cause u dont qs everybody everytime, and still i use often my chi skill too both in pve than pvp)

angellicdeity

Wow, I hadn't checked the forum for awhile, and came back to some more nonsense:

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well, then I know where you're coming from, and of course, everyone builds their character to suit their needs. I'm not suggesting that claws are a PvP tool, however they certainly can do the trick when a non-brambled heavy comes at you. Generally, a bow will kill them faster and keep you alive longer, but when someone gets inside your effective attack range, it becomes a viable option.

My concern about the rationale of end-game demon archers who say "Demon is better" because QS procs and then its a "OMGWTFBBQ minigun". Half the time QS doesn't proc, your enemy's stun will wear off and the player you're attempting to kill has a chance to escape.

Personally, my archer has a base attack rate of 1.0/second without the aid of genie skills. Since we all know the only real advantage of high interval without claws is killing squishes (you use elemental damage for heavies), I postulate that sage stun -> regular attacks is a better combo because primarily you're not reliant on QS. The problem with QS is it has a cast and doesn't always proc. As a demon when you stun -> QS, and by the time you're ready to fire your first shot post-QS, your stun is nearly over. 3.5-1.6=1.9. Let's give demon the benefit of the doubt and say QS DOES proc and you're left with 1.9 seconds of stun remaining to light 'em up. So, 1/2 the time you'll Stun -> QS -> 2.3x shots before stun wears off, the user pots, uses an IG, plume shells, runs away or uses some other skill.

A sage will Stun -> regular shots. That means in the time a demon has attacked 5 times, a sage will stun -> 4.5 times. The demon will crit more, but the DPH from sage will be harder from effects of bow mastery and blazing arrow.

There is no doubt in my mind that 90% of squishies not in a plume shell will be dead in both scenarios, however, when you combine the additional chance to crit from Demon stun, the lethality of the combo only exceeds sage in the event of a proc.

Translation: For most real life PvP scenarios, the only time demon is better is when it procs, other than that, sage wins out. Additionally, sage does not have to rely on "chance skill", instead their attack pattern will not change.

As for non-squishy HAs, elemental damage is a better choice, and strictly in terms of PvP, a sage will win out here. With genie anti-metal effect skills, killing a HA becomes much harder. Sage Frost arrow nicely fills the void, despite what page 1 would suggest.

Demons are quick to toute demon lightning strike as being awesome because it never misses. Are you kidding? Evasion has long since been broken in this game-- even more so since 2x 50%+ accuracy rings have come out. To top it off, it increases the cool-down time.

For the record, EVERYTHING I SAY IN BOLD UNDERLINE RED LARGE FONT IS TRUE, because it just is.

Its been proven over and over again, that sage passive damage increases amount to less than 1000 extra damage. Even less when you factor in PvP reductions.


Criticals will always deal up to twice the damage. See Quilues post below:

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't know where you get this "Demons think they have 20% more crit" from. it's 12, as people have said repeatedly. The trade off is 12% crits over more base damage.

I looked at the weapon damage of a +12 g15 bow, 2 garnets, 2 attack rings, and I looked at the difference between the 2 masteries. It comes out to about 516 more base damage.

Now on to Blazing Arrow: 10% more fire damage...except attack rings are not included. Your extra damage is about 300.

This is 800 more base damage than Demon. Demons don't need QS to outdamage you, they have just a tad more chance to crit to sort of compensate. If I'm ever unfortunate enough to be hitting 750 on a well-geared wizard, it means a similar Sage would hit about 790, except I have a crit advantage from Stunning Arrow.

2 Meters in range advantage: Stop pretending it makes a huge difference. I love tabbing and hitting people without having to move in TW too, except in the rare rare rare rare circumstance that I've selected a Sage at 34 meters rather than 32.

Sage has a real advantage in STA, I'll admit that the 20% debuff is very powerful.

I'm not here to bash Sages, I'm here to remind everyone to put things in perspective. Just as you pointed out that QS' 1.6s cast + chan negates a lot of stun time and is random on top of that, I'm reminding everyone that Sages have about 800 more damage per hit and 2 more range at the cost of 12 extra crits. Also, please elaborate on you "attack speed" argument, what does a Demon lose as opposed to Sage if they also have rank8 and have 1 attack/s with normal hits?

They dont loose anything. Demons only gain more if Quickshot proc's.


But apparently our dreamweaver friend here doesn't understand that demon spark is a guaranteed increase.

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

in pw ms where is my ea have more sage archer and i never heard anybody qqing about that :P

i like pretty much like others too without sine aps, just thats all.
(yea range is situation deped like qs too, cause u dont qs everybody everytime, and still i use often my chi skill too both in pve than pvp)

Only because they made the mistake of going sage in the beginning. They would've rather went demon, but at the end of the day they spent all their time levelling - the hard way, so they dont want to throw away all that effort.


Only recently has the demon/sage switch thing been implemented. Even now sages dont switch simply because they've spent soo much money on their skills that go bye upon switching.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

angellicdeity wrote: »

Wow, I hadn't checked the forum for awhile, and came back to some more nonsense:




Its been proven over and over again, that sage passive damage increases amount to less than 1000 extra damage. Even less when you factor in PvP reductions.


Criticals will always deal up to twice the damage. See Quilues post below:





They dont loose anything. Demons only gain more if Quickshot proc's.


But apparently our dreamweaver friend here doesn't understand that demon spark is a guaranteed increase.




Only because they made the mistake of going sage in the beginning. They would've rather went demon, but at the end of the day they spent all their time levelling - the hard way, so they dont want to throw away all that effort.


Only recently has the demon/sage switch thing been implemented. Even now sages dont switch simply because they've spent soo much money on their skills that go bye upon switching.

less than 1k damage but overall more % than 2 from ur total damage so better than 2% crit if u dont spam skills for another 10% crit (i talk about pve).

i dont care about attack speed vs a barb (or any heavy) when i am already nearly out from chi after 3rd spark ...... about qs u critical cost time what u dont get back with that damage bonus what skill add so acctually if u spaming with them u lose secs, in critical case less luck depend than qs but i dont see the point why i must spam skills with ea only for raise my damage with few % in overall when i can be passive also most of sage use RC too so i like better the reduction (simple reason the wizz and cleric with higher refined weapon at 100+ hurt on me) and attack speed i use when i want.

about godly 3rd spark burst, often if somebody u are strong just anti stun skill/pot and fall down from air (most of pk in air) or in tw just godline and bb

fulgida

angellicdeity wrote: »

Its been proven over and over again, that sage passive damage increases amount to less than 1000 extra damage.

I think you typically use both your passive skill and blazing arrow, so talking about the one without the other is sort of silly.

Meanwhile, try this on for size:

Stellar Vibration+12
two drakeflame stones
+65 attack levels (+9 from bow adds, +24 from diamond of tiger in armor, +30 from Jones blessing)
critical hit

15% of your minimum weapon damage here will be something like 1292, before defenses.

But let's go for a pk situation:

Blazing Arrow

Stun from max range.
max speed move to get closer
frenzy, extreme poison

It seems to me that the maximum potential damage difference here, in pk, would be over a thousand higher for a sage, than for a demon (assuming all relevant skills were the sage or demon varieties). Though of course that's before defenses, but since we are totally hypothetical here we could throw in veno armor break, just for fun.

Now... of course... this is not necessarily a plausible character, nor situation. But proofs are supposed to be valid even in implausible situations, I think?

Anyways, I am not disputing that demons can be great archers and have advantages over sage. But I feel sad when people speak of proofs which are nothing of the sort.

And you do not want me to feel sad do you? Oh, what am I saying... of course you want me to feel sad.

Never mind.

b:chuckle

Legerity - Sanctuary

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

...

i dont care about attack speed vs a barb (or any heavy) when i am already nearly out from chi after 3rd spark ......

...

My thoughts:

I'd rather normal attack a barb with QS proc for a debuff while kiting. When the advanced soul shatterer becomes more common I postulate that many would rather just normal hit the barb for debuff and then proceed to take it down with metal skills. Barbs already take a lot of effort to take down so I see fast normal hits (to debuff) as a viable tactic. If we're talking about mid-hp barbs ~15k hp mark... they shouldn't be a problem for either cultivation with genies and blessing being available.

Also, stun arrow should probably be almost used on cooldown. STA also is helpful against barbs (or high HP characters in general) to lower the effectiveness on charm ticks. These both grant a +10% crit chance. The crit buff is not on 24/7 but chances are you'd have the crit buff active when unloading your metal chain when you re-engage after kiting.

For robies with ridiculous pdef, I'd much much prefer a crit hit as those are the times when you're most likely do see four digits. I could use the +250 raw PvP pdamage but if I had to choose, the critical and speed increase from the demon cultivation wins.

Personally I think sage benefits from 5aps fist with spark. But again, if a sage wants to unload their elemental chain upfront on a barb, that is their prerogative and it's how they prefer to kill.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

It is good to see some more input on this topic, but there is still some omg sage, stfugtfo nao stuff going on that doesn't yield any more to the discussion.

@Devoted the kill ranks you're referencing have not updated in ages. I'm not sure how they've changed it or how they calculate it, but 2235 != 2898. I know my number of kills and my KTD ratio have not changed in many months on the server-wide ranking, but I do see my kills going up under my profile, so for what its worth... not that much of a difference.

@Qui, Yep, a possible 12% maximum. How many demon archers went demon thinking they were going to be in the 50-60 crit range by thinking they'd tack on 22% more crit? I'm not saying you or anyone else in this thread did, but I've corrected many players of this harsh reality. I should have clarified what was trying to say earlier... apologies.

@Angellic... nvm, some people aren't capable of civil discourse. Post from your main so we can see your stats and know you're really an end-game archer; there is no security breach from the new system unless you were foolish enough to make your login name the same as your display name.

I believe the point I'm trying to make here is that sage and demon archers are similar yet vastly different creatures in a PvP setting. To suggest one is better suited than another has not been "proven" and further it never can be. All anyone here in this thread has is anecdotal evidence on toons with varying degrees of equipment, levels and refinement, and personally, I don't feel that differences between the cultivation makes or breaks a toon.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

My thoughts:

I'd rather normal attack a barb with QS proc for a debuff while kiting. When the advanced soul shatterer becomes more common I postulate that many would rather just normal hit the barb for debuff and then proceed to take it down with metal skills. Barbs already take a lot of effort to take down so I see fast normal hits (to debuff) as a viable tactic. If we're talking about mid-hp barbs ~15k hp mark... they shouldn't be a problem for either cultivation with genies and blessing being available.

Also, stun arrow should probably be almost used on cooldown. STA also is helpful against barbs (or high HP characters in general) to lower the effectiveness on charm ticks. These both grant a +10% crit chance. The crit buff is not on 24/7 but chances are you'd have the crit buff active when unloading your metal chain when you re-engage after kiting.

For robies with ridiculous pdef, I'd much much prefer a crit hit as those are the times when you're most likely do see four digits. I could use the +250 raw PvP pdamage but if I had to choose, the critical and speed increase from the demon cultivation wins.

Personally I think sage benefits from 5aps fist with spark. But again, if a sage wants to unload their elemental chain upfront on a barb, that is their prerogative and it's how they prefer to kill.

y just since token thing more and more ppl use rank8 instead lunar cause more dmg and vs nirvana easier get good stat (still i prefer too the nirvana justa bit ahrder ro get).
till rank8 dont get debuff and easy to get and good damage too, more ppl forced to use metal then qs-ing a full buffed barb, maybe i am wrong but i think this and another side sage often use rc if want debuff somebody with 30% attack speed.