Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)
Comments
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I read it.GrimReaperHC wrote: »Miugre, check your inbox.
I`ll talk to Dev about this thread and proceed with actions after that. Meanwhile I would like to hear the opinions of the rest archers who are working with guides etc. Please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nothing will be fixed unless the bias is removed, too. But Devoted is entitled to his/her opinions. They just shouldn't exist as a guide. >_>
Or what, do we need to follow Falcon's idea of a sage-biased guide? Bias against bias isn't going to solve anything. And I doubt anyone would want a guide written by me. -_-[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »And I doubt anyone would want a guide written by me. -_-
To be honest I'd love to see such thing. I've only spoke with demon archers so far and never had the chance to look on the sage side in details. Who knows, I might change my decision about going demon?0 -
Well, I agree that nothing will be solved with bias against bias, but you just said yourself that there is no solution, right? A thread about why Heaven > Hell written by a Heaven archer such as yourself would call into play your own opinions about skills you've had a chance to use, rather than raw data that is used in factual arguments - perhaps there are situational uses not mentioned here. I wouldn't know, as I'm going Demon - but it would be a nice contrast to the current Hell>Heaven one and a resource for pro-heaven arguments that newbies could take into consideration when making their choice.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I always thought I'd be the only one doing crazy things for people who would never care enough to do it back or to act like idiots or be entirely vulnerable, and making someone fall in love with you is easy, and flying 3000 miles on four days notice because you can't just sit there and do nothing and breathe into telephones is not everyone's idea of love, but it is the way I can recognize it because that is what I do."
Sig pic by Nowitsawn0 -
Again, it's all about personal preference. Do you want more versatility with a magic-based frost arrow? Do you want a 36m range when using a Windcatcher? Do you want a 4.5-second stun? I did. But I wouldn't waste my time directing arguments like that at Devoted, because all I'd get in return is a rant on how I suck at PVP.GrimReaperHC wrote: »To be honest I'd love to see such thing. I've only spoke with demon archers so far and never had the chance to look on the sage side in details. Who knows, I might change my decision about going demon?
As if that were news to me anyway. Of course I'm going to suck at PVP, and not just because of my culti choice. I stopped caring a long time ago when I realized that PVP is only dominated by the obsessive or by the daddys-credit-card crowd. Why should I even care about stacking up against them? Then again, Devoted is from LC, from back in the day when it was fashionable to call everyone who wasn't on LC a "carebear." XD
No, any guide from me wouldn't just focus on sage/demon culti. It'd focus on realistic archers of many different builds, gear plans and playstyles. But unless a bunch of people suddenly come out with support for this idea, I doubt I'll waste my time. -_-
They shouldn't have to read two threads to do it, though. And then, what? One person is calm and moderate and civil-minded and the other is promoting a single extreme and using passive-agressive insults?Falcondance wrote:Well, I agree that nothing will be solved with bias against bias, but you just said yourself that there is no solution, right? A thread about why Heaven > Hell written by a Heaven archer such as yourself would call into play your own opinions about skills you've had a chance to use, rather than raw data that is used in factual arguments - perhaps there are situational uses not mentioned here. I wouldn't know, as I'm going Demon - but it would be a nice contrast to the current Hell>Heaven one and a resource for pro-heaven arguments that newbies could take into consideration when making their choice.
Geez... sounds a lot like political debates. >_<[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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Different strokes for different folks. Personally I support the guide idea, it sounds very interesting. I don't know if I take Devoted's tone a little less seriously than you do, though. I burst out laughing a few times, and I've already read this. :P
And as far as politics go, Demon and Sage were both radically opposed political parties from the start, lol.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I always thought I'd be the only one doing crazy things for people who would never care enough to do it back or to act like idiots or be entirely vulnerable, and making someone fall in love with you is easy, and flying 3000 miles on four days notice because you can't just sit there and do nothing and breathe into telephones is not everyone's idea of love, but it is the way I can recognize it because that is what I do."
Sig pic by Nowitsawn0 -
We could always have a Sage>Demon next.
Or...we could just try to mathematically prove everything and have hardcore evidence which is better or whether they are equal.0 -
KageYingZi - Heavens Tear wrote: »We could always have a Sage>Demon next.
Or...we could just try to mathematically prove everything and have hardcore evidence which is better or whether they are equal.
Elena, they're playing your song.b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I always thought I'd be the only one doing crazy things for people who would never care enough to do it back or to act like idiots or be entirely vulnerable, and making someone fall in love with you is easy, and flying 3000 miles on four days notice because you can't just sit there and do nothing and breathe into telephones is not everyone's idea of love, but it is the way I can recognize it because that is what I do."
Sig pic by Nowitsawn0 -
It's been done to death. All hail the conquering demons, etc. >_>KageYingZi - Heavens Tear wrote: »We could always have a Sage>Demon next.
Or...we could just try to mathematically prove everything and have hardcore evidence which is better or whether they are equal.
Well that's another problem with the thread - it's full of obscure references to LC players and anecdotes that go nowhere. o.O A newbie archer is going to be confused, and thus it's going to be hard for them to figure out the point of it all (other than "rarr go pure dex demon rarrrg").Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »Different strokes for different folks. Personally I support the guide idea, it sounds very interesting. I don't know if I take Devoted's tone a little less seriously than you do, though. I burst out laughing a few times, and I've already read this. :P
How do you figure? :P Unless there's some "silent majority" of people who just skipped their 89 culti altogether? XDFalcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »And as far as politics go, Demon and Sage were both radically opposed political parties from the start, lol.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »Elena, they're playing your song.b:chuckle
*sets up Elena-bait and hidesb:avoid*b:chuckle0 -
@Miugre: Well, it's like Demon archers are the dictators, the RARR GO DEMON RARRG people, who heartlessly abuse the poor Sages, who need to learn to farm their own crops under oppression, thus their PvE interests...
Actually, I sense inspiration for a fanfic coming on. o.0[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I always thought I'd be the only one doing crazy things for people who would never care enough to do it back or to act like idiots or be entirely vulnerable, and making someone fall in love with you is easy, and flying 3000 miles on four days notice because you can't just sit there and do nothing and breathe into telephones is not everyone's idea of love, but it is the way I can recognize it because that is what I do."
Sig pic by Nowitsawn0 -
I lol'd. And then I thought of Tetris, for some reason. @_@Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »@Miugre: Well, it's like Demon archers are the dictators, the RARR GO DEMON RARRG people, who heartlessly abuse the poor Sages, who need to learn to farm their own crops under oppression, thus their PvE interests...
Actually, I sense inspiration for a fanfic coming on. o.0
Eh... any other support for that guide idea? >_> I just can't help thinking there'd be way better people than me to do it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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Thread unstuck for now.
Muigre, I support your idea about creating a guide about the sage achers, too bad that I can't help with that, but I`m sure that you are not the only sage archer out there ... are you? >.>0 -
Just the only vocal one, I think. ._.GrimReaperHC wrote: »Thread unstuck for now.
Muigre, I support your idea about creating a guide about the sage achers, too bad that I can't help with that, but I`m sure that you are not the only sage archer out there ... are you? >.>
Nah, I mean... the only problem with this board is that newbies or mid-level players are often given advice along very, very strict lines. Obviously I would never suggest that an archer should go full magic or something, but the possibilities for a competent endgame archer are a lot more varied than that (competent, not good in modern-day PVP - people here don't seem to know the difference >_>). If I did write up something, it would focus on the pros and cons of various builds, maybe personal opinions on the lv11 skills (no, for the record, I am not a hardline, closed-minded sage... there are several demon skills I would love, particularly the buff, wingspan and a couple others), and maybe some interesting suggestions for armor sets - although ElenaCostel covered budget gear pretty well.
Or maybe I could write a rant about how everyone's way too PVP-focused around here (and on PWI in general). Ehh. XD That wouldn't be as interesting to read though.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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Well I think that as long as you want to help somehow or write something it doesn't matter what it is about. For example I'd like to write a thread with a few simple tips and tactics I've discovered on my own while playing, but the problem is that each and every time I`m trying to write it down only a few helpful things come up in my mind so I`m always closing the tab and forgeting about the thread I wanted to post.
Just go ahead and write for that, for what you feel like writing, nobody will sue you for that. For example an archer friend of mine, level 100, wasted a lot of his time to explain me a lot, he started helping me with my archer when I was around lvl 45 and now I`m 70, so you can imagine with how much stuff he actually helped me. He helped me with the skills, with the instances and how I should run them, with tips that I can find helpful, with an explanation about the sage and the demon archers ( yes, he is a demon but he definitely explained the sage side of the things too ). When it was down to a skill he was explaining me why I should lvl up this one instead of that one, which one I should keep at level 1 etc, and he wasn't just saying 'This skill is cool, lvl it up' or 'This skill sux, forget about it', he was explaining me why it is so and he was letting me decide if I want to lvl it up or not.
Wow, wall of text, but I hope that this might help you come up with an idea.
By the way, if you start a thread with tips and hints I`ll be happy to join it.0 -
Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »And yet in the 11 pages of comments that I read before I got bored, Devoted managed to disprove most if not all of the pro-heaven comments.
Which says something about the quality of some of those comments, in the context of the typical gear that people were using back then.
For example, in PvP, an advantage of sage is that you can attack people without their being able to attack back. That's like having stun immune, damage immune, seal immune, and debuff immune and so on all rolled up into one nice package.
It will not always work (especially against assassins) but every skill has limitations. Sometimes it will not work the way you think it is working, because of lag, which is annoying. And if this tactic matters very much you will have to use aim low (which only has a 90% success rate, for the purpose of this tactic). And you typically have to be near max range when opening combat for this to be useful (and if you were not max range you would have to holy path or something).
Anyways, Devoted's argument against this was that a demon could get a +range weapon, which nullfies that advantage. If anyone had taken maybe 2 seconds to think about this, they would have realized that sages can also use plus range weapons.
Of course another issue with this skill is that finding a good +range weapon can be difficult. According to the in game encyclopedia, you cannot get nirvana weapons with +range, and it is somewhat ambiguous about if this is possible with something like a Haze Dispeller. This changes the playing field somewhat, since a +range weapon means you probably take maybe a 30% damage hit just from your weapon choice, when compared to the high end available gear. But this also means you are not likely to be facing a demon archer with a +range weapon, so it balances out somewhat. (That said, my only relevant experience for this issue has been in TW, and there I was using a soul crusher so it may be that this does not work so reliably with only a +2m range advantage over other archers... perhaps someone else could comment on that aspect.)
So, anyways: how much of this was discussed in those 11 pages of comments, and how balanced was that discussion?0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »Which says something about the quality of some of those comments, in the context of the typical gear that people were using back then.
For example, in PvP, an advantage of sage is that you can attack people without their being able to attack back. That's like having stun immune, damage immune, seal immune, and debuff immune and so on all rolled up into one nice package.
It will not always work (especially against assassins) but every skill has limitations. Sometimes it will not work the way you think it is working, because of lag, which is annoying. And if this tactic matters very much you will have to use aim low (which only has a 90% success rate, for the purpose of this tactic). And you typically have to be near max range when opening combat for this to be useful (and if you were not max range you would have to holy path or something).
Anyways, Devoted's argument against this was that a demon could get a +range weapon, which nullfies that advantage. If anyone had taken maybe 2 seconds to think about this, they would have realized that sages can also use plus range weapons.
Of course another issue with this skill is that finding a good +range weapon can be difficult. According to the in game encyclopedia, you cannot get nirvana weapons with +range, and it is somewhat ambiguous about if this is possible with something like a Haze Dispeller. This changes the playing field somewhat, since a +range weapon means you probably take maybe a 30% damage hit just from your weapon choice, when compared to the high end available gear. But this also means you are not likely to be facing a demon archer with a +range weapon, so it balances out somewhat. (That said, my only relevant experience for this issue has been in TW, and there I was using a soul crusher so it may be that this does not work so reliably with only a +2m range advantage over other archers... perhaps someone else could comment on that aspect.)
So, anyways: how much of this was discussed in those 11 pages of comments, and how balanced was that discussion?
Well, I can tell you that if I was red-named in world pvp and with my miraculous powers of observation noticed that I just got stunned by a sage archer from 16m away, I'd pop an anti-stun potion and roll them at level 87, because as you said, their damage would be really unimpressive. That said, my damage is also unimpressive. b:chuckle
Of course, if they were a +10-refined sage archer with 20,000 HP and unreal damage, I wouldn't have a chance. The average 90-95 sage archer, though? Using, for example, a Windcatcher? Yeah, I'd probably roll them.
If they had an OHT weapon or something with +2 Range x3, for some absurd reason, maybe I'd be more likely to die. But it would have to be refined like crazy to be PvP-viable... /tangent-rambling
You're right in that there was not a lot of substantial pro-heaven argumentation within those eleven pages. Redundancy, however, was also abundant on the part of the sage archers or pro-sage players, who argued the same stale points which were disproved with the same reply. I did not read the entire thread's worth of comments; it's entirely possible that I missed some crucial nub of knowledge that preaches the benefits of sage archery that I overlooked entirely... in which case, would you care to enlighten me? I'm set on becoming a Demon archer, but I may yet change my decision.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"I always thought I'd be the only one doing crazy things for people who would never care enough to do it back or to act like idiots or be entirely vulnerable, and making someone fall in love with you is easy, and flying 3000 miles on four days notice because you can't just sit there and do nothing and breathe into telephones is not everyone's idea of love, but it is the way I can recognize it because that is what I do."
Sig pic by Nowitsawn0 -
Well that's the final point, isn't it? Your culti and your build are all but irrelevant if you're not devoting unhealthy amounts of time/money into the game (in 99% of cases... and of course every +10 player and their dog are going to claim to be in that other 1%, but don't you believe it >_>).Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »Of course, if they were a +10-refined sage archer with 20,000 HP and unreal damage, I wouldn't have a chance. The average 90-95 sage archer, though? Using, for example, a Windcatcher? Yeah, I'd probably roll them.
Impossible. If OHT bows even can have range on them (and I don't know that they can... I don't remember seeing it in pwdatabase for Haze Dispeller), it'd be listed under the "special add-ons" category, and you can only have one of those (at most). Trust me, if there was a xbow with more than +2m range, I'd be after it.Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »something with +2 Range x3
Refer to my comments above to grim. :P It's all about the skills. If you like Demon's skills better, then go Demon. But don't choose your culti based on what an extreme few have to say regarding "serious" PVP.Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »You're right in that there was not a lot of substantial pro-heaven argumentation within those eleven pages. Redundancy, however, was also abundant on the part of the sage archers or pro-sage players, who argued the same stale points which were disproved with the same reply. I did not read the entire thread's worth of comments; it's entirely possible that I missed some crucial nub of knowledge that preaches the benefits of sage archery that I overlooked entirely... in which case, would you care to enlighten me? I'm set on becoming a Demon archer, but I may yet change my decision.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »Which says something about the quality of some of those comments, in the context of the typical gear that people were using back then.
For example, in PvP, an advantage of sage is that you can attack people without their being able to attack back. That's like having stun immune, damage immune, seal immune, and debuff immune and so on all rolled up into one nice package.
It will not always work (especially against assassins) but every skill has limitations. Sometimes it will not work the way you think it is working, because of lag, which is annoying. And if this tactic matters very much you will have to use aim low (which only has a 90% success rate, for the purpose of this tactic). And you typically have to be near max range when opening combat for this to be useful (and if you were not max range you would have to holy path or something).
Anyways, Devoted's argument against this was that a demon could get a +range weapon, which nullfies that advantage. If anyone had taken maybe 2 seconds to think about this, they would have realized that sages can also use plus range weapons.
Of course another issue with this skill is that finding a good +range weapon can be difficult. According to the in game encyclopedia, you cannot get nirvana weapons with +range, and it is somewhat ambiguous about if this is possible with something like a Haze Dispeller. This changes the playing field somewhat, since a +range weapon means you probably take maybe a 30% damage hit just from your weapon choice, when compared to the high end available gear. But this also means you are not likely to be facing a demon archer with a +range weapon, so it balances out somewhat. (That said, my only relevant experience for this issue has been in TW, and there I was using a soul crusher so it may be that this does not work so reliably with only a +2m range advantage over other archers... perhaps someone else could comment on that aspect.)
So, anyways: how much of this was discussed in those 11 pages of comments, and how balanced was that discussion?
I've got plenty of more arguments against the range bonus of sage. Back then I said to prospective archers that if they think the +2 range bonus was good was to pvp with a +2 range bow to see how effective it is before going sage.
In theory, +2 range would only be truly helpful in 1v1 situations. In tw and group pvp being able to attack from as far away as possible is a benefit but it isn't something you can rely on. For group pvp there are people everywhere and you are aren't very helpful if you have to keep flying back to the edges of the mass ball to maintain the benefits of +2 range. In TW the players are more structured so it's a lot easier to DD on the front lines and be behind most of your other DDs. This seems like a nice aspect to the +2 range. It won't save you from an aoe and the front lines aren't static so you will have to be very mobile but you can stay alive for quite a while baiting your lower range DDs. Unfortunately in TW the front lines are never uniform walls of players so to attack one player you might be in the range of another. Being selective on your targets will keep you alive but you won't be providing the massive damage assistance a demon archer has. I guess the trade-off is rarely dying and providing adequate damage to over aggressive targets(which are usually targeted in the first place) or giving your front line a good damage boost and dying.
For 1v1 the range is very helpful against casters. Fight a bm, barb or sin from max range and they will hardly notice the difference. Barbs and BMs were built to survive to get in melee range (sans +30 attack blessing and rank 8) they have anti-stuns and 10 meter insta-cast stuns while moving. You can kite and having the extra 2 meters sounds like it would really help you but the time it takes a player to move 2 meters is so minuscule you can rarely do more than a demon archer. This is why I said try the +2 range weapon. There is a noticeable difference in pvp but it in no way is a skill to base your culti on. The times I was able to appreciate my extra range were few and far between. The only thing appealing to me that I see being a great advantage is the 1v1 against a caster niche. Unfortunately, almost all pvp fights are immune battles and unless your aim low procs a seal or you stun there are plenty of things each class can do to survive. You are making them use an apoth pot, genie stamina or a skill but you are also down a spark. Once the caster is in range all the bonuses from your passive are gone unless you back up or drop from the air. It's smart to use an anti-stun when engaging an archer as they basically have to kite if off or any class will walk over them. Good thing it's easy to get in range while the archer is kiting. I do this against both demon and sage archers.
Why don't I like the heaven passive? Well it's a passive that provides absolutely ZERO benefits unless you are in it's 2 meter range bonus. With demon you get a consistent 10% accuracy and 1% crit. Both of these are worth a lot less compared to when I wrote this guide but at least the bonuses are always in effect from any distance. If I had the ability to choose the culti of this skill I'm on the fence but leaning towards sage. It is good in situations that I'd see myself in but it in no way makes a winning argument for sage as we have to take every skill into consideration.
As for the sticky I appreciate it but I won't change the tone of my original post. I didn't make this 'guide' to be a sticky I made it because arguing between sage and demon in guild chat is very hard to formulate points and for people to comprehend them. I feel like a broken record but the entire meaning of this thread was for people to voice their opinions and others can take in the opinions and formulate their own. Critical thinking is described as 'purposeful reflective judgment concerning what to believe or what to do.' Before this post archers had no easy form of obtaining opinions on demon and sage besides a small number of people they talked to about it. This thread provides a lot for an archer to analyze. If you want to write a technical document on the subject go ahead. You aren't going to prove anything but you will provide another extremely helpful reference point for archers to take into consideration. My original post is my opinion after reading a ton about the subject. I originally wanted to get heaven before I knew anything about the skills. I was 2x on my-en on my archer but I just wanted to go heaven. At 7x on devoted I cleared my opinion and read all the skills, picked apart the my-en archer forums and tried to forecast as much as I could on 9x archer play style and what areas archers were weak and what would directly or indirectly improve them. Saying demon isn't good because the loudmouth said so is a **** poor argument. If a new archer were to pick a culti only using this thread as a reference they wouldn't be going demon because I'm yelling at them they would be going demon because there isn't enough sage testimonials to create a valid sage opinion good or bad.0 -
I do get your point about this having limited use as compared to demon version. However I've found that the sage passive skill does afford me some limited benefits. +2 range will make all the difference if you're in PVE fighting a boss with a nasty aoe skill. When I first put on Windcatcher at 88, the first thing I noticed was that its +2 put me out of range of nob and pole's AoEs for my BH. Obviously either lv11 passive will accomplish this just as well as Windcatcher, but you asked for the benefits of +2 range and IMO that's one of the biggest.Devoted - Lost City wrote: »Why don't I like the heaven passive? Well it's a passive that provides absolutely ZERO benefits unless you are in it's 2 meter range bonus. With demon you get a consistent 10% accuracy and 1% crit. Both of these are worth a lot less compared to when I wrote this guide but at least the bonuses are always in effect from any distance. If I had the ability to choose the culti of this skill I'm on the fence but leaning towards sage. It is good in situations that I'd see myself in but it in no way makes a winning argument for sage as we have to take every skill into consideration.
Actually, my favorite moment in using that skill was when I had to kill the water-based boss for the Treasure X quest. Our veno (very experienced and a good friend of mine) suggested that one person pull the boss to shore at which point his herc would catch it and begin to tank. I was the obvious choice for this due to my range of 36m with Windcatcher (and I was low-90s at the time, when not everyone would have lv11 winged blessing). The pull was successful and I immediately went to max range and began to DD. We happened to have another archer in the squad, a demon without a +range wep. I can't be sure if he had the demon version or not, but I do remember him dying from the aoe, at least three times, putting a considerable strain on our only cleric who had to focus heavily on aoe healing. After the second time he died several members of the party told him to sit the rest of the fight out (as forcing the cleric to res him again could result in a failed fight); he did not listen. After the third or foruth time he died I said, quite bluntly, "let the fail sage archer deal with this." He finally listened and sat out the fight.
Also, I should note that if you say "only one skill isn't culti-changing" enough times, wouldn't their cumulative effect be? i.e. if there are enough "one skill"s, wouldn't that be valid? :P
Which is fine in and of itself - all guides have at least a little bit of opinion creeping into them - but the presentation of the OP is what threw me off. What place do insults have in the realm of critical thinking? None - because critical thinking requires a climate of honest, clear and above-all respectful discourse.Devoted - Lost City wrote: »Critical thinking is described as 'purposeful reflective judgment concerning what to believe or what to do.' Before this post archers had no easy form of obtaining opinions on demon and sage besides a small number of people they talked to about it. This thread provides a lot for an archer to analyze. If you want to write a technical document on the subject go ahead. You aren't going to prove anything but you will provide another extremely helpful reference point for archers to take into consideration. My original post is my opinion after reading a ton about the subject.
Saying demon is good because the loudmouth said so is an even worse argument. Show me a person who can only present an argument by being unnecessarily vocal and insulting, and I'll show you a person who's sabotaging their own efforts.Devoted - Lost City wrote: »Saying demon isn't good because the loudmouth said so is a **** poor argument. If a new archer were to pick a culti only using this thread as a reference they wouldn't be going demon because I'm yelling at them they would be going demon because there isn't enough sage testimonials to create a valid sage opinion good or bad.
That being said, a newbie isn't going to understand the difference. A lot of newbies are unsure of how to play the game and constantly think they're doing it "wrong," but don't have the patience to actually research things on their own - and will thus defer to the first "experienced" opinion they find regardless of its actual arguments or their presentation. And what do they see when they come to this board? Demon, demon, demon. There's an entire "peer-pressure" element to this board that is never addressed.
And honestly, my hangup against writing a sage-based thread at this point is that I know... I know... that it's going to be dissected and pissed on from all sides by people who either completely missed my point or just decided that my opinion is invalid for whatever reason. e.g. I could write an entire thread about not needing to be a ridiculously geared, 5.0-capable clawcher, and all I'm going to get is people decrying my build as not Nirvana-ready or whatever.
tl;dr: I'd like to do it but I have my doubts that it'll be received properly. -_-[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
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LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »I do get your point about this having limited use as compared to demon version. However I've found that the sage passive skill does afford me some limited benefits. +2 range will make all the difference if you're in PVE fighting a boss with a nasty aoe skill. When I first put on Windcatcher at 88, the first thing I noticed was that its +2 put me out of range of nob and pole's AoEs for my BH. Obviously either lv11 passive will accomplish this just as well as Windcatcher, but you asked for the benefits of +2 range and IMO that's one of the biggest.
Actually, my favorite moment in using that skill was when I had to kill the water-based boss for the Treasure X quest. Our veno (very experienced and a good friend of mine) suggested that one person pull the boss to shore at which point his herc would catch it and begin to tank. I was the obvious choice for this due to my range of 36m with Windcatcher (and I was low-90s at the time, when not everyone would have lv11 winged blessing). The pull was successful and I immediately went to max range and began to DD. We happened to have another archer in the squad, a demon without a +range wep. I can't be sure if he had the demon version or not, but I do remember him dying from the aoe, at least three times, putting a considerable strain on our only cleric who had to focus heavily on aoe healing. After the second time he died several members of the party told him to sit the rest of the fight out (as forcing the cleric to res him again could result in a failed fight); he did not listen. After the third or foruth time he died I said, quite bluntly, "let the fail sage archer deal with this." He finally listened and sat out the fight.
Also, I should note that if you say "only one skill isn't culti-changing" enough times, wouldn't their cumulative effect be? i.e. if there are enough "one skill"s, wouldn't that be valid? :P
Which is fine in and of itself - all guides have at least a little bit of opinion creeping into them - but the presentation of the OP is what threw me off. What place do insults have in the realm of critical thinking? None - because critical thinking requires a climate of honest, clear and above-all respectful discourse.
Saying demon is good because the loudmouth said so is an even worse argument. Show me a person who can only present an argument by being unnecessarily vocal and insulting, and I'll show you a person who's sabotaging their own efforts.
That being said, a newbie isn't going to understand the difference. A lot of newbies are unsure of how to play the game and constantly think they're doing it "wrong," but don't have the patience to actually research things on their own - and will thus defer to the first "experienced" opinion they find regardless of its actual arguments or their presentation. And what do they see when they come to this board? Demon, demon, demon. There's an entire "peer-pressure" element to this board that is never addressed.
And honestly, my hangup against writing a sage-based thread at this point is that I know... I know... that it's going to be dissected and pissed on from all sides by people who either completely missed my point or just decided that my opinion is invalid for whatever reason. e.g. I could write an entire thread about not needing to be a ridiculously geared, 5.0-capable clawcher, and all I'm going to get is people decrying my build as not Nirvana-ready or whatever.
tl;dr: I'd like to do it but I have my doubts that it'll be received properly. -_-
/inb4yourcommentsareinvalidbecauseyou'resagearguement b:chuckle
I'll tell you why I went demon though:
Quickshot
Wingspan
TA
Stun
STA
Demon Spark
Obtained all the books except Quickshot. Whenever I use stun, it always seems that the immediate shot that follows it is another crit, which is why I love it so much. Wingspan is useful in pve and pvp, rest are pretty self explanatory.
Why I would've went sage:
Stun (4.5 seconds)
Bow Mastery
Blazing Arrow
Now I think there are 5 items on demon side, 3 on sage side, hence why I went demon.0 -
Falcondance - Heavens Tear wrote: »Well, I can tell you that if I was red-named in world pvp and with my miraculous powers of observation noticed that I just got stunned by a sage archer from 16m away, I'd pop an anti-stun potion and roll them at level 87, because as you said, their damage would be really unimpressive.
Um, like... 16m? That's 20m too close...
And, I think perhaps once upon a time, you could use apothecaries while stunned. But that had to have been like a year ago, or something.
(And, soul crusher is vastly superior to windcatcher...)
Of course, there are several ways of messing up the kind of scenario I described, but in a situation like TW those approaches have their own rather significant limitations (but will still succeed, sometimes).
Anyways, personally, I chose sage because the first genie went well with my hair. I now have a blue genie, though, so I could not advise anyone to go sage for my reasons, unless maybe they had blue hair.
Put differently: you create the situations where your skills are useful. Any canned "forum description" will have hundreds of variations when you get to doing it "for real". And I could not even begin to do them justice.0 -
Hey, I'll be honest, part of the reason I went sage is because there was such a swarm of demon archers. :P I know the "dislike it because it's popular" angle isn't worth making a choice on, but... I figured someone needed to give it a shot and find its redeeming qualities.
Skills I like for sage include...
Take Aim
Frost
Blazing
Mastery
Stun
Knockback (could have its uses in PVE)
Wings of Protection (although demon is better)
Stormrage (it basically turns into Glacial Spike in the form of a DoT)
Winged Blessing
and of course, STA.
Several of the other skills (such as Serrated and Thunderous Blast) weren't culti-deciding for me but I look forward to their effects nonetheless. And of course, some skills are just much better than their lv10 versions because their lv10 versions were acheived so early on (Vicious comes to mind).
Sadly, all I have right now are the "cheap three," and Vicious, Winged Blessing, and the buff. Eventually I want to make the full Lv92 book set from AMPs, but sadly I haven't made much headway into this yet. >_<[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]
Other Active Characters:
LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).0 -
I would have to agree with devoted on this one considering I have yet to see a good write up on how useful the sage skills are to counter what Devoted has stated in this thread (although a little harshly).
Pretty sure it was never meant to be a guide but an opinion on why "Devoted" thought Demon was better. However due to lack of argument on his/her points further reinforced the claim that Demon > Sage. Even the sage archers do not contend it here or come up with points to support their cultivation path or highlight the strengths or accomplishments of a sage archer.
For PVE, in my opinion, the following would be more important aspects to think along instead of individual skills:-
1.) DPS -> Given the same equips, the demon cultivation provides you two skills to give a boost here. Demon spark - 25% increase, Quickshot - 30% increase when proced
2.) CRIT -> Given the same equips, the demon cultivation passives would give you 2% more crit. Although random, you still have 2% additional chance to crit than an equally geared sage archer
3.) DPH -> Sage wins here given that the bow mastery provides an additional 15% boost to ranged damage along with the Fire buff giving 10%. So given the exact same build and equips, the sage version would have an additional damage boost.
4.) AoE Damage -> Archers have 4 AoE skills, wingpsan, Thunderous Blast, Barrage of Arrows and Sharptooth Arrow.
Demon
A.) Wingspan -> gives a damage reduction buff free of cost when you hit a target successfully. When do you use this skill? When there are mobs at melee range. So the dmg reduction buff is actually useful here since you will use this skill only when fighting mobs not killable using your bow quickly enough. Sage version has a 20% chance to give 1 spark. How useful is the sage version compared to the demon one? Not very much imo
B.) Thunderous Blast -> Demon gives you 800 more damage while Sage gives 0.5 second faster channeling and 1 second faster cooldown. Basically you can use this skill quicker if you were sage. If this is a skill you use frequently, then its something you might want to take into consideration when choosing your culti
C.) Barrage of Arrows -> The heaviest mana consuming skill of archers with insane damage output. Lets compare now, Demon version fires at intervals of 2.5 seconds while sage version gives you a damage reduction of 33%. Now as per my gameplay, I do not even bother using BoA unless my expel is available (immune to phy dmg for 8.5 seconds) or have a BB running up (which would nullify the sage version's damage reduction). So in my case, the demon version is more useful since mobs will be dying faster as opposed to the sage.
However if you are the kind that BoAs on their own without a tank or a cleric around....then the sage version is kinda better since you get a natural 33% damage reduction which would increase your survivability.
D.) Sharptooth -> Demon version gives you 10% crit boost while sage reduces max hp by 20%. Personal choice I guess. 10% additional crit chance for 15 seconds or a perma 20% hp drop. I actually like the definitive 20% decrease more.
Amongst these 4 AoEs, if you like the majority of one culti, then thats probably more useful for you in the long run.
5.) Regens -> Sage cultivation gives you a lot of gain chi (including the free skill for 50 chi). Given the same equips, potting preferences, sages can gain chi easier for sparks and BoA
Demon cultivation has a single skill Winged Shell which lets you regain mana when not in combat. This means if you are out of combat and like to regen mana at the cost of chi, you may do so using winged shell instead of pots.
What to you prefer? This again is a personal choice
6.) Damage Reduction -> Sage has more skills here. BoA (33% reduction), Winged Shell (absorbs 200 dmg more than demon), spark (25% damage reduction)
7.) Survivbility -> This is more of a point of view. Take your archer and compare both Demon and sage sides with it and you would probably have an idea which would help you survive more. For me, I felt under the proc of quickshot or demon spark, my attack speed would negate the hit entirely in many cases. Basically why would I need damage reduction when the mob is dead before it gets a chance to hit me? Bosses are an exception here since irrespective of whether youre demon or sage, you are going to get hit.
8.) Working with other classes -> As a demon, I found my spiked skill effects (crit bonuses, atk speed increase, etc) all match very well with the debuffs provided by other classes. For instance, HF, I know I can time my spark so that I can boost my attack speed when HF is active to do maximum amount of damage in that time interval. Last night, I killed FB59 bosses within 15 seconds of spark time under the influence of amp+myriad rainbow. I know others can do better but it was just to emphasize more on the capitalization of debuff duration part.
This by no means is saying sages cant do the same, its just that demon skills are more tuned to capitalize on these short intervals than sage skills.
In Short: Both have their strengths and weaknesses and each archer needs to know what they value most and choose accordingly. I would very welcome a fair comparison between both highlighting their strengths and weaknesses to be labelled as a definitive guide.
Overall I find demons to be the kind which have short duration spiked damage while sages have more on the damage reduction and steady damage over time. So it all comes down what kind of player the archer is and what they value more.
Others may have a different view on what I have said in my post (if they cared to read), but this is my opinion.
@Edit after further reads
@Miugre -> Draft your guide based on points put in this thread and things youve learned from your own experience as a sage archer and other archers (both sages and demons) could probably help contribute to it. Just because there are a lot of demon archers, doesnt meant they dont know where the sage version of their skills would be useful.0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »In theory, +2 range would only be truly helpful in 1v1 situations. In tw and group pvp being able to attack from as far away as possible is a benefit but it isn't something you can rely on. For group pvp there are people everywhere and you are aren't very helpful if you have to keep flying back to the edges of the mass ball to maintain the benefits of +2 range. In TW the players are more structured so it's a lot easier to DD on the front lines and be behind most of your other DDs. This seems like a nice aspect to the +2 range. It won't save you from an aoe and the front lines aren't static so you will have to be very mobile but you can stay alive for quite a while baiting your lower range DDs. Unfortunately in TW the front lines are never uniform walls of players so to attack one player you might be in the range of another. Being selective on your targets will keep you alive but you won't be providing the massive damage assistance a demon archer has. I guess the trade-off is rarely dying and providing adequate damage to over aggressive targets(which are usually targeted in the first place) or giving your front line a good damage boost and dying.
For 1v1 the range is very helpful against casters. Fight a bm, barb or sin from max range and they will hardly notice the difference. Barbs and BMs were built to survive to get in melee range (sans +30 attack blessing and rank 8) they have anti-stuns and 10 meter insta-cast stuns while moving. You can kite and having the extra 2 meters sounds like it would really help you but the time it takes a player to move 2 meters is so minuscule you can rarely do more than a demon archer. This is why I said try the +2 range weapon. There is a noticeable difference in pvp but it in no way is a skill to base your culti on. The times I was able to appreciate my extra range were few and far between. The only thing appealing to me that I see being a great advantage is the 1v1 against a caster niche. Unfortunately, almost all pvp fights are immune battles and unless your aim low procs a seal or you stun there are plenty of things each class can do to survive. You are making them use an apoth pot, genie stamina or a skill but you are also down a spark. Once the caster is in range all the bonuses from your passive are gone unless you back up or drop from the air. It's smart to use an anti-stun when engaging an archer as they basically have to kite if off or any class will walk over them. Good thing it's easy to get in range while the archer is kiting. I do this against both demon and sage archers.
Your assessment sounds fairly accurate, based on my experience. And I will agree that the extra range is almost unnoticeable in a kiting situation. On the other hand, 2m, if the person is not using holy path, is a third of a second, and 4m (which was the typical range advantage I had, because no one else was dumb enough to be using a soul crusher), is 2/3 of a second. In other words, if I was not lagging to badly, and if holy path was not an issue, my stun would almost always land before their stun.
Also, sage stun lasts 4.5 seconds. That's enough time for (for example) sage sharpened tooth arrow and sage aim low before it wears off.
That said, in TW, one of my main jobs was to lure people into range of my squad (or get them to target me so the rest of my squad could attack them from safety), which would require a completely different kind of analysis.
Anyways, I do not believe that sage is superior to demon, or vice versa, in the general case. They both have specific cases where they are superior, but my PvP experience is limited (barely 640 pk count, permanent blue name, battle avoider) so I am not the best person to talk about that aspect.0 -
Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »For PVE, in my opinion, the following would be more important aspects to think along instead of individual skills:-
1.) DPS -> Given the same equips, the demon cultivation provides you two skills to give a boost here. Demon spark - 25% increase, Quickshot - 30% increase when proced
2.) CRIT -> Given the same equips, the demon cultivation passives would give you 2% more crit. Although random, you still have 2% additional chance to crit than an equally geared sage archer
3.) DPH -> Sage wins here given that the bow mastery provides an additional 15% boost to ranged damage along with the Fire buff giving 10%. So given the exact same build and equips, the sage version would have an additional damage boost.
4.) AoE Damage -> Archers have 4 AoE skills, wingpsan, Thunderous Blast, Barrage of Arrows and Sharptooth Arrow...
From my point of view, archer PVE DPS currently means you are using 5aps fists. Ranged dps will be much lower than that... but in a quick battle, ranged attacks do not need you to run up to your target.
And I think crit, when taken out of a DPS context has something of a DPH flavor.
Edit: and how would I choose between sage and demon? Personally, I choose mine based on my faerie's appearance. But demon advantages have a small multiplicative effect with dexterity where sage advantages are additive, which I think introduces a slight bias towards vit builds for sage and dex builds for demon, and the optimal skill use patterns (and their methods and the ends you can achieve with them) of the two cultivations have some differences.0 -
@Fleuri
As much as I would agree on you of how most people percieve DPS today, my point was made for bows. At 5.0 fist/claw aps, the only skill that even figures in the picture is the spark skill where the dmg reduction from sage spark wins since the atk speed boost from demon can no longer impact the atk rate.
Perhaps I should have worded DPS as "Attack Rate". Would that make better sense?
What am trying to get at is
Given the below build with just lvl10 masteries, which cultivation would suit it better
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=2e582f9f8d7d5e8d
Does the same hold true for a build as follows (100 dex points were put in as 75 vit and 25 str):-
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c76e330ffd594221
Perhaps yes...perhaps no. Is Demon suitable for both? Is Sage suitable for both?
Does the player prefer spamming skills or prefers to use normal shots?
Are they the type to charge in blindly and attack asap and kill themselves or are the careful type of player who takes note of all the mobs positions before attacking?
Does the player prefer tanking the bosses using their damage instead of holding back?
How does one determine if they should go demon or sage? A guide would most likely be a tool a newbie player can use to determine what they actually want when they switch at 89. That is something the archer community has to come up with in a better fashion.0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »I don't know how it happened but apparently a pre-requisite to being an archer on pwi is to be half or almost completely ****. Seriously archer seems to be a magnet for failures. Please stop, too many people have said that archers on this server are terrible. Here is a quick test to see if you qualify for this guide: What level is your poison arrow? If you didn't say 1 please keep reading. In this guide I'll attempt to save the class so many people fail with. I'll outline the basic ideas for pve and for pvp, list several telltale signs of failure and rant while I fly world quest. BTW if I ever finish this, it will be huge.
I'll start off with something that happened today that made me write this.
Heaven vs Hell
After being in a guild with several potential non-fail archer's and thoroughly discussing the pro's and con's to heaven and hell (it's a lie), I decided I need to somehow map out my arguments instead of conveying them with the shift button of justice in guild chat. Kay so, heaven sucks endgame, 9x and even before you hit 89 and I'm here to prove it.
Let me list some key arguments I've received from pro-heaven -- aka fail -- archers.
- Frost arrow is teh **** against heavies.
No it isn't ****. You have 3 god damn metal attacks for pvp already. That's almost more than a cleric. Use them. If you wanna throw 25 chi worth of minimal water damage at the opponent that's your prerogative. Seriously, you really wanna waste a quarter of a fury on a little amount of damage? You need the chi for much more useful things that will actually provide damage. You never used frost arrow pre-89 pvp and you won't now. (If you do use frost arrow in pvp please stop reading my guide, you'll taint it.) The only justifiable time you could ever use heaven frost arrow in pvp is against victor because he has more metal defense than physical defense.
- Take-Aim 1 shots everything, including wb's
Ah yeaaa heaven take aim is a nice skill, I'll admit it but it isn't justifiable to go heaven seeing as the hell version is just as nice. This skill is purely based on your epeen refinement level and comparing 400% to 500% isn't a huge culti changing decision because hell casts half a second faster which is just as nice as more damage. If you were to stop at 90 this skill might be enough to make the switch to the fail side BUT this skills real power comes later in the game (remember it's weapon damaged based) so hell fury > heaven take aim.
- Free 50 chi every minute
Yeah that ****s useful, to an extent. In my opinion archers aren't as vigor based as almost every other class. You can easily overcome this little advantage with fury pots. Pvp wise the only real vigor skills you would use are: triple spark, aim low, wings of grace. Notice how there isn't a huge vigor requirement to pvp as an archer. You can pvp extremely effectively without having to kite for 3 minutes building it.
- 90% damage mastery
With hh90:
Level 10 mastery: 5437-9094
Sage mastery: 5834-9759
Demon mastery: 5636-9427
Don't forget the 1% crit you get. Oh yeah you are an archer. You are pure dex for the crit rate (you are pure dex right?) this is how you do your damage. Crits. If archers didn't crit 5 times in 3 attacks they would be like warriors with bacon axes. That's right, you suck.
I'm sure there are more arguments people have presented but usually those are the first four. If they don't **** or even consider my points and are still on heaven's nuts then I tune them out after that.
Some reasons why hell **** heaven:
I guess I should divide this section into two categories. First I'll tell you why hell **** at 90 if you stop leveling (you're dumb) and I'll also tell you why hell **** at endgame with all skills seeing as heaven people think the heaven mastery appears in their inventory upon reaching level 89.
So you got to 90 and now you want a life AND want to be a factor? Too bad. Don't worry though, as long as you didn't choose heaven you still can sort of do something.
Aka hell fury. Seriously those two words are almost enough for you to snap out of your state of retardation to talk to mo zun (demon guide u nub) instead of the *** with the dress. You are shooting mini heaven take aim's at the speed of usain bolt. I killed yoshiki with it once when he was vit build. (in pvp war, not 1v1, you kidding me)
K so most 90 archers have: take aim, frost arrow, blazing arrow and heaven/hell fury. Take aim I discussed, blazing arrow can go away cause it only works for normal arrows (50% vs 60% isn't culti changing you pve'r) and frost arrow sucks.
So if you are deciding on stopping at 90 with only those 3 skill books readily available hell is still superior.
If you wanna get to real endgame and have several or all skills available read on.
-Quickshot
-Lightning Strike
-Sharptooth
-Stun
-Wingspan
-Wings of protection
-Barrage of arrows
-Thundershock
-Winged blessing
No, I didn't just list every skill archers have. I listed the ones in which hell is waaaay better than heaven. Looking at the list I really don't wanna explain each one because there are so many.
-Quickshot
Sage version has a 50% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version has a 50% chance to increase attack rate by 30% for 6 seconds.
Holy **** robe classes, you have a 50% chance to die in under 6 seconds. (This is the biggest **** machine with 8jun)
-Lightning Strike
Sage version has a 25% chance to gain 20 additional Chi.
Demon version extends cooldown by 2 seconds, but will never miss.
Ok that cooldown sucks but it will never miss. In terms of endgame that 'will not miss' is important. Sure you won't miss wb's too often already but what about non **** warriors? That's right, those warriors you made fun of with their miss-miss-miss-zerk crit-miss damage now are more dex based. Prepare to miss on important shots. Also great against other archers.
-Sharptooth
Sage version always reduces maximum HP by 20%.
Demon version grants a 10% increase to critical hit for 15 seconds.
If you are even pondering heaven you must be a carebear. I'll leave it at that.
-Stun
Sage version increases stun duration to 4.5 seconds.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 10% for 10 seconds.
Looks a lot like sharptooth. Good thing archers don't heavily rely on crits.
-Wingspan
Sage version has a 20% chance to gain 50 Chi.
Demon version casts a Level 5 Winged Shell on yourself upon a successful hit.
Well holy ****. To be honest I really never noticed this skill till the stupid forge put it in my inventory. It ****. With a 6 second cool down you can literally sit there tanking warriors and werebeasts unless they one shot you. The shield breaks after 1~3 hits and by then it's already done cooldown. This skill is so vital in group pvp you won't even know till you get it. Imagine a werebeast attacking you in group pvp. Use this skill every 6 seconds while standing still and you got a wb wasting his time while your party kills every other person because they don't have to kite the annoying thing. I only died once tanking a single person's damage because law zerk crit with dragon and hes got a +11 GX.
-Wings of protection
Sage version always increases evasion duration to 1 hour and speed increase duration to 15 minutes.
Demon version always increases evasion by 50% and speed by 20%.
I won't disclose my level of this skill for untold reasons (tldr im cheap) but the evasion boost this skill gives make it way better than an hour buff.
-Barrage of arrows
Sage version reduces damage taken during casting by 33%.
Demon version reduces the interval between attacks by 0.5 seconds.
This skill is much better than heaven because the only time you will be using it is in tw. When you open zhen you have bunch of blue **** which eerily look like arrows pointing at you saying: "STUN THIS FGT" You need to deal damage fast. Most people stun the zhenner so the 33% damage reduction can pz. Only time heaven is better is if you are facing bloodlust and they are continuously spamming their paralyze skills on your open zhen. DONT WORRY BLOODLUST ILL BE SURE NOT TO RUN WITH MY ZHEN OPEN.
-Thundershock
Sage version increases Metal resistance reduction to 25 seconds.
Demon version has a 10% chance to paralyze enemy for 10 seconds.
This is definitely a personal choice for me. I like hell better because if it does proc it will be against a heavy user (aka melee) so you either get 10 seconds of nuking or 10 seconds to kite. Sage is nice because this skill costs 30 chi but 15 seconds is enough as you will be spamming this skill against heavies.
-Winged blessing
Sage version always gives a 14 meter range increase.
Demon version increases accuracy by 10% on ranged targets.
Demon version increases critical hit rate by 1% on ranged targets.
This is annoying. 2m isn't anything. Stop arguing like it is. Basically I tell people this: get to 88, use the 88 bow, **** now. The 10% acc is great because it adds a lot and ofc the 1% crit doesn't need anymore explanation.
Opinions on PVP builds
I will only talk about 3 builds because even though I think there is only one proper build there are two other acceptable builds and any other build besides these 3 were never meant to be. The 3 builds are: pure, hybrid and vit.
First off all this part of the guide is geared more towards 90+ pvp. Really the builds work for every level but the stats I will show will mostly be 9x stats.
Pure Dex
Basically all my points for the pro's of this build are the con's for the other two builds so this might get redundant. First off let me clarify one thing that makes me rage: archer's str stats. Any proper archer build will require minimum strength, emphasis on the minimum. Not 2 more strength, exactly your level + 4. If you are 90 you better have 94 strength. If you get bonuses from your equipment restat it. This build is called pure for a reason. Actually you can probably get away with capping your str at 94 for hh90 till you need more for higher 9x gear. Put all that extra str into dex. Restat your int to 3 and if you are a high level and 1~2 dex away from another crit restat your vit.
I just remembered one thing. I need to emphasize this.
☆Helm of Archer Terribleness
No archer on this server should have this helmet. It is one of the first signs that you are doing something wrong. You aren't as fail with it at 95+ but when I see people with this at 8x it makes me raaaaaaage. Class participation time: What is the str requirement for that terrible helmet? Following the proper way to play an archer what level could it first be worn at? If you said 101 congrats you can subtract. That's right level 101 is the earliest you should wear this helmet. If you have it on now I'm sure you can sell it to another 7x archer who hasn't read this yet. Even better trade it for a lion spirit helm.
As you can see pure dex is very demanding and you really want to squeeze every single dex point possible that you can. This is because your dex is directly related to your crit rate. If you have played an archer into the 90's you will realize that we actually are terrible without crits. It's depressing trying to kill something when you can't get a crit in 10 shots. You won't kill anyone not terrible without critting. Not only does pure dex provide much more crit than other builds it also gives you more damage. Now let's think about that by throwing some numbers around.
Let's say a pure dex archer hits a cleric for 1.3k no crit.
Now let's say a hybrid archer hits the same cleric for 1k no crit.
Now add the crits:
Pure: 2.6k
Hybrid: 2k
Now the damage difference is even higher. Factor in that the hybrid has around 5% less crit that means if you even do crit as a non-pure, your damage will be even worse comparing both crits. Those numbers are purely made up and I'm sure that the damage difference is probably even more but it's just there to emphasize that the damage a pure does is tons more.
Vit build (3 dex 1 str 1 vit)
No no nooo please tell me how you can pvp with this build. At 90 you are sacrificing a huge chunk of your damage for 1k more hp. Sure that hp sounds nice but it isn't helping you do anything other than tank more damage. Are we in the werebeast forums? No. In pvp you are meant to kill things, not fly around tanking 4 people, you aren't pandora - you don't even have blink ffs. You are no good surviving 1000 more damage when you deal a terrible amount back. This build is absolutely terrible at any level of the game for both pvp and pve.
Hybrid Build (7 dex 2 str 1 vit)
I really wanna rename this build as 'I'm not bad enough to go pure vit - I'm worse.' I don't understand what people are trying to accomplish with this build. Do you want to tank? Do you want to do damage? These people seem to be stuck in the middle and quite frankly it's worse to not choose a side. Hybrid is basically gimping your damage for a not even noticeable amount of hp. Congrats you now crit less and do less damage but don't worry you get a whopping 500 more hp. You really are just hurting yourself not choosing a side because you still will have trouble killing people and lasting one poison dot longer wont help you kill things.
Ugh, writing sucks. I'll stop for now. I tried to make it not look like a giant wall of text but I failed. Ill add more later.
Please please please argue against all of my points. Talking with people is way better than writing a guide. If someone were to read this guide I'm sure they would learn a lot more from the points other people raise and the arguments people provide against said points.
Upcoming rants:
DOTS: Stick stop.
ARMOR: No danika, go away.
SOULSTONES: loljohnnieboy
Other stuff I forgot:
Don't flame in here. I want this to be actually referenced for people who have questions. Again, please provide your opinions and constructive critism as they help make this guide better.
changelog:
42709 - started qq on heaven/hell
42909 - qq'd about builds
So much derp in one post.0 -
INexperience - Raging Tide wrote: »So much derp in one post.
Perfect World User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 30
b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
Leeching CQ salary since 09'
Many names, Common Faces.0 -
What kind of a ****ing ****** quotes a whole guide just to put in one comment? So worthless GTFO >>Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »What kind of a ****ing ****** quotes a whole guide just to put in one comment? So worthless GTFO >>
Herpaderp[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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