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Official Feedback Thread: Guardian Fighter Changes

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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Guarded Assault was getting damage bonuses when it shouldn't have been. This wasn't as noticeable before (increasing a small number could still keep it within the variance swing) but is now quite obvious. You should only reflect the amount relevant to what you took which should not be boosted by damage bonuses. It can still be resisted however. It will be potent, but not 350k potent :). Also it is being clamped to no more than 15% of your max HP which should prevent the massive reflect cases without making the power worthless on high damage targets.

    Agreed.

    Also I think people forget that when you are blocking, you cant attack with encounters (you can tab or bash only) so its a DPS "nerf" from a casting time perspective. Plus its pretty rare that you take massive enough hits that would end up actually capping this power out... I could be wrong, but mod 4 my GF will be over 40k HP, I think its a clever solution and also makes stacking HP a little more attractive.

    Ontop of that, in PVP things like the reflect are not useful against an HR because it can somehow proc their deflect heal - making it actually HEAL the HR more than the damage they take.
  • fdsakhfduewhfiuffdsakhfduewhfiuf Member Posts: 604 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    evalira wrote: »
    BUG: Tab Mark is only giving 8% damage increase not 20%

    Verified using a dummy and Crushing Surge.
  • gentlemancrushgentlemancrush Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 445 Cryptic Developer
    edited July 2014
    Verified using a dummy and Crushing Surge.

    Good catch. I have fixed it locally and hopefully I make it in for the build this week!
  • g4rfunkleg4rfunkle Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    imit8r wrote: »
    That is probably your Ioun stone. The companion is invisible, normally, but it is there even though it looks like it is floating around your head.

    You are correct, I forgot to mention I had an ioun stone, but this knight's valor effect should be disabled on augment companions in my opinion.
  • crixus8000crixus8000 Member Posts: 1,205 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Bug:

    I thought we are meant to be CC immune when blocking but when fighting a cw I can lose a lot because they just freeze me over and over with many different skills through my shield.


    And griffons wrath sometimes loses 2 stacks instead of one.
    Crixus - PVP GF
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • vteasyvteasy Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ayroux wrote: »
    Agreed.

    Also I think people forget that when you are blocking, you cant attack with encounters (you can tab or bash only) so its a DPS "nerf" from a casting time perspective. Plus its pretty rare that you take massive enough hits that would end up actually capping this power out... I could be wrong, but mod 4 my GF will be over 40k HP, I think its a clever solution and also makes stacking HP a little more attractive.

    Ontop of that, in PVP things like the reflect are not useful against an HR because it can somehow proc their deflect heal - making it actually HEAL the HR more than the damage they take.

    how does it do vs TR?
  • reagenlionel1reagenlionel1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I think thats supposed to happen. That happens on live too.
    Blocking seems to be immune to only DIRECT CC effects. CC effects from debuffs seem to still apply, which I dont particularly mind munch, when its under the old block system.

    This new block system, hm..
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Crush,

    I do have to give this feedback. I was 1v1ing some CWs today on PTR (1st time for ToD 'mod 4') I was pretty surprised to see how tanky CWs are with their new shield on tab... Im not a CW expert and I know their capstone is halving its effectiveness soon (forget the name - one that procs and deals %hp or %weapon damage)

    It seemed really funny to me that a CW gets (even when broken) +50% DR ontop of their what, 20-25% base DR? This puts them over or near the cap. This MAY be overkill. Posted on the GF thread form playing my GF and if this is whats intended, maybe the TANK class should be a little more tanky than the CW class...

    I mean id honestly rather take a shield like they have over the one we have TBH. Theirs pretty much DR caps CWs out. To be fair, maybe this is a little too strong?
  • klangeddinklangeddin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I think thats supposed to happen. That happens on live too.
    Blocking seems to be immune to only DIRECT CC effects. CC effects from debuffs seem to still apply, which I dont particularly mind munch, when its under the old block system.

    This new block system, hm..

    No, there is a difference in CC immunity between live and pts.
    On live you can block effects like Dragon Wing Buffet or Beast Raider Charge, on PTS you cannot like you could not on live until a few weeks ago when a fix was applied to solve this problem.

    http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/6001243

    "Dragon Wing Flap may now be properly blocked by Guardian Fighters."

    Well, this has been broken again on PTS. (probably because of the changes to the block system)
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Mod 4 so far from GF ( and GWF but I wont write it twice on two different threads ) perspective:


    - many things have changed and are still chaning ang I hope will continue to change because frankly so far Mod 4 is shaping out to be the kingdom of ranged classes who not only can wreck you from afar, not only can completely avoid your damage and cc but are also getting buffed to a point when they can stand toe to toe with you in melee and actually beat you.

    Do you recall the times CWs in partucular would complain that in a PVP Dom they were getting destroyed by GWFs on nodes ? To which I have many times replied with - " use your range , keep your distance, dont come into my melee ".. Well things are different in Mod 4. HRs remain pretty much as good as they are on LIVE, CWs hulk out ( ridiculous), DCs can already be next to unkillable.

    Why are classes who are designed to control/kill from range and who can in turn avoid damage and control getting so resilient ?
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • thestaggythestaggy Member Posts: 1,102 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    crixus8000 wrote: »
    And griffons wrath sometimes loses 2 stacks instead of one.
    '

    I've started using Griffon's more frequently on live and I have too noticed that it fires off twice when I only press it once.
    PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
  • ahsherahsher Member Posts: 208 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    I agree with you guys concerning CW Shield.

    Shield buff needs to be the same on and off tab.
    I've proposed adding a small damage pulse when Unstable on tab but not getting any traction.
  • iceshard2faceiceshard2face Member Posts: 289 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Feedback
    ARMOR OF BAHAMUT


    the buff at 30% does not last very long it's almost not even noticeable, after a lot of testing i feel like even now with the rework to the feat it still isnt worth putting 5 points into for a 2 second buff.

    the duration of the buff should be increased so when you hit 30% it should be there for a good amount of time it just doesnt last long enough to make it worthwhile.
  • nwnghostnwnghost Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Stab At-Will
    It would be nice if this at will would not automatically move the player forward if no target is selected. Players intentionally do not select a target to steer the cone of this attack better to hit multiple targets as opposed to 1 target only


    Steel Blitz
    This Class Feature deals rather pitiful damage. When it procs, it deals approximately 2/3 of the damage the first attack of Cleave would. On a Great Weapon Fighter, the damage is slightly higher, though also very low and makes this a poor Class Feature to use for either character.


    Guard
    Guard is too stable now compared to earlier versions. With Shield Talent and one of either Enforced Threat or Iron Warrior, I can pretty much remain in Guard mode indefinitely without choosing any Guard related feats
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Feedback:

    For pvp the new block does not last long enough .Opponents just wait the block to run dry and attack.GF is doomed against ranged classes.Standard block duration must at least get an increase of 2-3 secs.

    What means "shield block interrupts control powers?"I try to break through a control chain by an Oppressor CW but no avail.

    Did Griffon's animation ninja nerfed to the live standards?Today it seemed to me significantly slower than i tested it some days ago on preview.

    Anvil Of Doom works great.Kudos here ;)

    Weapons masters strike animation seems a lit slow to me.Can it get a litlle 15% speed boost?

    Crushing surge animation is clunky .I know it is purely aesthetical but can something done for this?Not an entirely new animation a copy paste of any att will of any class would be better than the current

    Terrifying Impact cone of effect is even narrower than FS.FS is an encounter TI a daily.Can it's cone be enlarged a little bit?maybe by reworking the Menacing Impact feat?It would not affect pvp but it would greatly help GFs in Pve.


    Plate agility feat is lucklaster.5 points to get a 5% increase in deflect?Can it reworked to 4 tiers of 2%? 2/4/6/8.

    tactical superiority is lucklaster for a t4 feat.5% damage while investing five points to it is really low.Can at its final 5 point to give an extra 3 or 5% chance to critical?

    Steel Blitz:It is a paragon power but deals so little damage that goes alomost unnoticable.Either its proc rate must be increased or its damage.

    Steel grace needs more attention.Sometimes on live it works sometimes not.In preview i was stunned same time by a GWF ,no matter if i had it on or off.It is 30% duration decrease i would notice that.

    Tide of iron cone remains small basically a single att will damage.Can it's cone enlarged a little bit?Again here no worries for pvp it would not unbalance it,but it would greatly help in pve to debuff mobs.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ahsher wrote: »
    I agree with you guys concerning CW Shield.

    Shield buff needs to be the same on and off tab.
    I've proposed adding a small damage pulse when Unstable on tab but not getting any traction.

    It just seems that TO ME, having a CW with a minimum of 70% DR (2% base + 50% unstable) is a little silly when the GF thats a TANK cant even get much over 60% DR (in full prot) I was thinking maybe the "MASTERY" of this adds either a damage boost, or MORE control resist but I dont think the DR should be more than even 30% when broken. Now that CWs have alot more control, they ARE more tanky. Now that they have a feat that deals damage THROUGH all damage resist, they can still do some good damage in PVP (through GFs block).

    So to me, it doesnt make sense that they also have MUCH higher DR than all the classes.... Even the Tank class....

    Im fearful if I post this feedback in the CW thread it causes alot of flame and just gets removed. If anyone wants to, go for it.


    FEEDBACK:
    I am also VERY leery about Guardians ability to tank. Now we have tools (i.e. ET/Mark/New block) but all of that is rather meh, if the GF cant actually TAKE alot of damage. Maybe we are supposed to revolve around blocking, and outside we are pitiful, it just seems for a class wearing plate armor, we dont get much benefit to the added AC we have.

    Heroic Feat:
    Armor Specialization. Consider boosting this to 10/20/30% increase (up from 5/10/15%). This would boost DR a fair amount for all GFs giving a real benefit to stacking high defense and AC. Even going to 15/20/25% would be fitting as well....
  • nwnghostnwnghost Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Like I said, Guard in the current state is too durable considering I invested exactly 0 feats in it, basically meaning that those feats would be superfluous and never picked.

    I do not believe that Guard should be "endless" without having chosen any feats or sacrificed more than 1 encounter slot
  • l3g10nna1rel3g10nna1re Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 372 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    @ GC

    Are you planning on changing the animation fro E/Threat ?

    I.e Make it a shout and instant and not a shield sword clang and 1.5 second delay ?
  • yawulfyawulf Member Posts: 139 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    @ crush with the changes u made to the sent iv gwf u have just created the very problem u seek to solve and is currently live now,since now their mark wod be working the same like the gf no one really cares that much for gf having top treat than gwf since now with the mark they would be out performing the gf even more,party buffs are sweet but if the gwf can provide one aspect of it and clear more of the treat without droping to even half his hp and runnig away from mobs no one really cares aba the buffs kv and kc wod give,and lets not forget the gf mechanic is build around these marks.If this makes it to live without changes to how the marks works on the gf differently than on a gwf u have honestly wasted effort and time buffing up the class to no end.You said it in a post u want us to be tanks and not dps so then if thats the deal
    1.Make con stat on a gf more effective than on any of the other classes reason being if we generate treat and with our low damage weapon we wod be eaten alive hence more con to soak in that damage for our team to clear

    2.make it such that on a gf when he marks a target he gets he gets 5-10% damage resistance on that target make it work like u did for the aspect of the wolf of the hr currently on live.

    3.Increase cap for damage resistance on the gf to 55-60% and make deflection come easy for us(currently these classes hr,trs and gwfs have more deflection than gfs who in ur words is suppose to be a tank and not a dps)

    4.Change this feat "enforce mark or treat"(sorry cant remember) when ever slotted gives more dr and deflection

    5.Increase the AC of the gf

    thank you
  • oicidrazoicidraz Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ayroux wrote: »
    I actually had to TRIPLE check he posted it under the GWF thread because I thought it was a type-error.

    But yes, I am really at a loss.

    GF mark(tab) is on command, but only hits 1 target, uses animation time. All their other marks DONT last long.

    GWFs marks, NOT on command - use skills to mark, but are perma...

    My suggestion: make "mark" last 10 seconds for BOTH classes (down from 20). Make Mark do 20% increased damage and CA - but 10 seconds for BOTH GF and GWF. REMOVE "tab" mark from GFs and give them Into the Fray on tab.

    Yes you will have to replace those with new powers... Shoot, since were in the mood just take some of the GWFs stuff to make it easy.

    Why not Take "Restoring Strike" and replace Into the Fray for encounters.

    Now GFs get "into the fray" on tab. Block on Stamina.

    GWFs get Unstoppable + Sprint

    They both have the same mark mechanics - i.e. 10 second mark, 20% dmg bonus (8% for allies) and C.A. Bonus.

    Id say that shapes up nicely. If you dont like ITF, use Knights Valor (although it has no solo-benefits) so that would be the only drawback... (Maybe just give a flat 10% DR boost while KV is active - instead of the R2/R3s giving 20% boost there).

    Take your pick crush! Now players could be using ITF or K.V. on tab, and Enforced Threat to mark (aoe) targets for 10 seconds and get the aoe benefits. GWFs can threat rush/IBS/Shout to mark and get benefits.

    This makes sense to me... Gives GF something unique from GWF and they BOTH get the fancy new mark!

    I agree a lot with this, please Crush, read it.

    Oh, and I wanted to report something.

    FEEDBACK:
    Griffon's Wrath sometimes activates 2 times instead of 1... :mad:
  • isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    our guard is soo bad, i take so much dmg from guarding. especially when guarding fox shift
    but i dont think we need anymore buffs
  • marko531marko531 Member Posts: 32
    edited July 2014
    Yes ITF on tab for gf, big + from me this idea. Or just give us unstopable :cool: fair trade :D
  • ameyaw1ameyaw1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    @ Crush your initial idea of the iv gwf trading damage for tankiness was good now with this update u have just thrown us back to the very root of the problem.I suggest you consider redesigning the tab ability(mark) of the gf to be very unique from what the gwf wod get here are some suggestions

    1. reduce the bonus damage the gwf gets from mark to the 8% gfs are currently getting on live and 3% to allies and do away with the combat advantage they get.This class has high weapon damage and very good offense stats

    2.When a target is marked by a gf let the gf allies gain 10% dr on that target(act differently in pvp of course)

    3.like someone said let the gf get 15-25% dr on the targets that r marked

    4.make mark last 20-30 sec for the gf and 10-15sec for the gwf

    5.Its been said before let the guard timer start when we start taking damage not when sheild is up and stops when there is no more damage increaE THE TIME DURATION BY 4-8 sec

    These optionsvare being presented to you and i hope u take a serious look at it else this is just mode 2 all over again since the gwf can tank better and dish out a truly decent amount of damage and this time round also buff allies
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    marko531 wrote: »
    Yes ITF on tab for gf, big + from me this idea. Or just give us unstopable :cool: fair trade :D

    LOL.

    I mean both are fighters, to be frank, I dont know why GWFs mark is perma, while GFs isnt. Makes no sense. You know Crush, an easy way to give an advantage to mark on the GF is to respect this aspect of the PnP mark:

    "While a target is marked, it takes a −2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target."

    So this would give GFs mark on a solo basis a much better mark than the GWFs who have a better AoE mark. -2 would be roughly 10% less damage no?

    There is also another feature you could add

    "When a marked enemy is adjacent to the fighter who marked it, and shifts or makes an attack that does not include the fighter who marked it as a target, the fighter who marked it can make a melee basic attack against it as an immediate interrupt action".

    - This is more difficult to code, but could be as simple as adding "interrupts" to marked targets from GF attacks... Might be TOO good though... But again, this has party utility written ALL over it.

    Overall, I just think mark from encounters/at wills needs to be level across the board. For PVP purposes Mark should NOT last more than 10 seconds (except for GF "tab mark" at longer duration). GFs should ALSO have lesser marks that last JUST as long as GWF lesser marks.

    Adding one of the two - or both - of the features above, gives the GF an advantage to their tab mark. Maybe you could even show love there and lessen the animation as well - seeing as its a bit clunky....
  • isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    feedback
    when we guard it doesnt show the "block" text and also it has no impact effect. it feels like they are just hitting my body.
  • iceshard2faceiceshard2face Member Posts: 289 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Bug
    Supremecy of Steel


    When activating SOS in thornward it reflects all damage back to thornward instead of the hunter ranger. i have noticed thornward is considered a companion? an ivisible figure can be seen in the green thorn that is usually in the middle. i thought we fixed this reflect problem and if a guardian is in the middle of thornward with SOS on. the reflected damage should be directed at the ranger not thornward considering i cant physically attack the ward to end it but for some reason it reflects to the ward

    any chance for a fix on that
  • mfgamesysmfgamesys Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    This whole business of giving the gwf a better mark than the original owner of the power just seems a waste of a skill for the gf since the gwf gets it perm and the armor pen bonus of 12% and now even more CA damage..... can you stop boosting something to the same level(clearly done because you cannot distinguish the code properly or it makes things too complex and thus it results in the gf becoming a 5th wheel) there needs to be a distinction if not just dont give them mark.

    If you could make it so it only gives the gwf only 8% dr reduction, 20% for them is way too much as they already do plenty damage.

    This is ending up like mod 2 all over again anything we get they get and it is much more effective for them than it should did the nerfs to iv not say something that you need to distinguish between our 2 classes as anything made for us becomes too much for the gwf.
    Main-Lothor Syralth Guardian Fighter
  • lococatt91lococatt91 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 162 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Rayrdan in Mod4 none of the things your concerned about gwf abilities is working like that anymore. problem solved.

    But you really should post to the GWF board not the GF board.
  • primaxalprimaxal Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    cba to read trough all of this, but has anyone mentioned that knights challenge has a bug? after a certain time of using it you can not use it anymore and have to slot another spell.
  • macaran5123macaran5123 Member Posts: 122 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Bug: Falling Damage
    I'm pretty sure this is unintentional, but block, as of NW.25.20140715a.3, is absorbing 80% of falling damage. As well as Knight's Valor is both transferring and reducing falling damage.
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