the main problem for GWF in pvp with all those nerfs on CC ill be that he wont do anything even if he get close to target.
Flourish - takes way too much time to cast,the animation is way too slow and lack CC immunity during it
FS ill probly stun for 0.25s
takedown stuns for 0.25s
so if u go SM or IV u will not do anything cause of lack of CCs
Feeback on the changes to GWF based on CN preview run
First of all i do have to say i agree with most of the changes as being PVE destroyer, the difference in DPS / survivabilty is not major.
Test run of CN was done on a 15k GWF PVE DPS destroyer : 7k power 4k Crit 1.2k recovery 2k defense 1k deflect 1k life steal with avatar of war set and dread legion weapon set. dailies spinning strike, avalanche of steel, at wills: Sure Strike, Threat rush encounters: restoring strike , IBS , frontline surge. class feats: destroyer , weapon master, i found this particular setup to be the best as it keeps the survivability at around the same levels, the DPS on the other hand was decreased by around 20% because of the need to move out of red which i am in agreement with a gwf like any other class should have the skill and game knowledge of what to tank and what to dodge : enough with the 18k fail GWF's that just tank everything and cause whole group wipes because of their inability to process information and live up to the expections, themselves and the group have upon seeing such a high GS. i do believe this will succesfully separate the actual gwf's from the poor wannabe's (the latter being mostly those who b*tch about the nerf and cry quit game, i can live with that). i'd like to mention that i do not play PVP with my GWF because i refused to use roar and would have been forced to do so by your common bug exploiters wanna be pros out there, therefore this is strictly from a pve point of view.
Group setup: 16k Spellstorm Thaum CW P.vorp, 16.5k Spellstorm Oppressor CW P.vorp, 15.3k Conq GF G, plaguefire, 16.6k Stormwarden archery P.vorp, 15k GWF IV destroyer P.vorp. we played without DC which i do believe having one would have speed things up a bit as the GF found himself in trouble pretty often, he did pull aggro off of the other party members without much difficulty , there was no more common pull boss to boss sort of gameplay followed by nuking them as it is currently the meta on live, progress was slow but constant.
GWF point of view.: with these changes the wicked strike rubberband needs to be fixed i tried using it and it just got me killed everytime i had to sprint out of danger, the marks from the IBS and Threat rush were not as many of you thought : insta-death because of full aggro, not at all, the GF was able to take most of it while the oppressor would constantly freeze everything in place, ofc the need to spam dailies as often as possible was increased due to the extra dmg received from the unstopabble change but any decent GWF would spam those anyways for extra DPS and crowd control. Bug report: on Xivros i tried using roar in the attempt to solo him and it seemed like it interrupts and stuns the boss i'm pretty sure this is not intended i suggest further testing. at the dracolitch fight almost every boss attack caused a severe loss in FPS and increase in latency this was the same for everyone so i do believe it is a server/game codding issue rather than computer/connection issue, which lead to multiple wipes after which we called it a day.
Overall impressions: all these changes combined are a complete game changer. imo most of them are necessary but toned down a little bit. Everyone will be forced to change their playstyle and builds which would allow for different party compositions and more challenging existing content. I do support the GWF changes and agree upon their necessity but i recommend to keep the CC immunity of sprint but remove it's damage resistance buff whilst at the same time increasing the DR of unstoppable to a 15-25% for destroyer spec. the current 5-10% is very low and dosen't allow the class to be enjoyed while playing it, the sprint immunity and CC resist is a nice way to compensate but i do believe this to be exploited by sentinel specs into creating an even more tanky GWF than current live is and result into keeping GF as useless as it is at the moment on live. don't even wanna think about possible PVP senti specs with the current sprint on preview. Not sure if u haven't implemented the charges changes to threat rush or if it is bugged but on my testing it did not have any sort of charge system, whilst this could be a good idea perhaps reduce the specified recharge time from 9s to 6s this will make the skill un-spamable but still useful i repeat i did not have any charges on threat rush during tests so i am not sure how this will actually perform with charges. Determination has a faster gain but also a faster drain which will most likely allow players to keep the destroyer purpose stacks up and have CC immunity but as mentioned before. the DR reduction is quite harsh.
The game is changing ladies and gentlemen and by the looks of it, it's a simple survival of the fittest great players will find ways, builds, party compositions to still enjoy the game, the crybabies will leave. i personally am happy with the GWF changing because at the moment it requires 2 brain cells to be the paingiver and immovable object at the same time while other classes struggle to get a group and most of the time they only get to run anything with guildies and close friends. for the developers your thoughts are in the right direction but you need to listen and take into consideration playerbase opinion, i'm not reffering here to people who just read the update notes and made a 2 sentence answer : "this is unacceptable. i quit. " but to people who have been loyal to the game and classes and have enough experience to help you out into creating the balance which is very much needed at this moment.
Thank you for taking the time to read this
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited June 2014
Feedback:
Big problem : (first crit is not 100%its not always this big numbers)
Take Down now do stun in pvp super usless .
Take Down as a destroyer +feated +25%dmg +40% from DP from destroyer +feated +37.5%+10%unstoppable=live dps critt 18k-20k with 12k power perfect vorpal from 19k gwf in PVE.(Are y aware i almost reached my limits?)
ON peview 12k-14kcrit dmg.Same setup as destoyer.
Now look on instigator and sentinel.
12k power perfect vorpal from 19k gwf take down critt (base dmg 2680) crit 5000-6000 DMG wow .
I can imagine if the FLS(also stun super usless) will get the 33 % nerf will hit as sent and insigniator 12 power 19k GWF with p v. 3000-4000 dmg .
All my at wills deal much more dmg .
Now imagine with 4k power GWF sentinel (10-12k GS no perfect enchant)=1000-2000 dmg crit?You realy belive all GWF in NW have p.vorpal and 12k power?
Reconsider pls this nerf makes take down and frontline =at-will skills .
PS: wrote from mobile sorry for it
Also i have 15k GF my FLS deal 10-13k and i have only 10k power and i have only rank 7 enchants no vorpal only lesser p fire.
PvP, PvP, PvP... I'm sure that balance in PvP is very important... but I don't do PvP... and I don't see how a GWF with 5-10% DR in unstoppable is supposed to do melee DPS damage to dungeon bosses or hoards of epic mobs when you can't even get close to them... running in and out of red circles is what we'll be doing, cause getting caught in one without unstoppable is instant death... I just tried some fighting on icewind pass without using unstoppable... I was still able to kill a pair of giants without dying, so I guess it's not hopeless... but I don't think kessell's retreat and epic dungeons are gonna be much for me, or for the teammates that will be spending 50% of their time rezzing me... i don't know how to get on the preview server, so i hope to hear a lot of feedback from those who can... thank you...
Feedback So you nerfed unstoppable because of how overpowered it is and then you give them unstoppable as a shift ability? so 2 unstoppable? So now destroyer built gwf are still going to be the really tanky and them deal the most dps? What will control wizards do now? what will any class do against them now? do you not understand that they are gods right now. This idea for sprint is horrible and will not be close to a balance for pvp. it was good the way it was and now you give them 30% damage resistance when sprinting and cc immunity? this is like wilds medicine. It is like you dont play your own game. You devs disgust me in your lack of common sense
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sidewazeMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 31Arc User
You mean other classes that have self heals, and ranged attacks and ways to root/hold enemies?
You can't kill things with a GWF at range, or while running around. At some point you actually do have to facetank some stuff, and that's what being part defender is - it means soaking some damage.
No one is asking for the GWF to be the king of all tanks, but it needs to be survivable and needs to be able to handle the thick of the fight or the class will go back to it's state at launch where it was awful.
No amount of nerfing the GWF is going to fix the GF - the GF suffers from having a "Tank" identity in a game environment that has zero use for actual tanking due to encounter design.
The only things this game's content requires are:
> Gear Score
> Ability to do damage or control mobs or be a force multiplier (buffs/debuffs)
> Not die alot
This is my whole point. Three angles for the nerf - mobility, damage mitigation, damage burst, as it relates to GWF pvp. Get rid of one of the three, but as soon as you get rid of 2 or more of the three, we are fairly worthless as anything but a glass cannon (which not being ranged, in pvp is a death sentence). This nerf reduces ALL THREE.
Health Regeneration: Increases the percentage of your Maximum HP you regain every 3 seconds. The full bonus is given when bloodied , and diminishes the closer you are to your maximum HP ... this is bellow the deflection severity , it's 0 %, it might come with the new boons if there are new boons ...
I have a question... if it's possible to apply health depression to just PvP... is it possible to apply the unstoppable nerf differently in PvP and PvE... say 20 - 40% DR in PvE, and 10 - 20% DR in PvP... not sure if that would make anyone else happy, but it would certainly make me a lot happier...
Regarding Frontline Surge on GWFs, I have a small, purely aesthetic suggestion that I believe would distinguish GWFs from GFs better:
The animation of Frontline Surge features three shields emanating from the source. For GWFs, I suggest that the animation be three Upright Great Swords instead. Since GWFs don't use shields, this seems to fit the class better.
Kind of a minor thing that won't disappoint me if not implemented, but I'm not sure if the idea has come across these forums before.
Aurora: TR Full Perma INT build -- This shouldn't be allowed.
Winter: CW Chain Chill build -- I'm not good at it.
Aella: HR Theoretical ADC build -- There's a reason I'm on page 2000.
On PTR sent spec are still very tanky. You can tell damage has been nerfed however they still hit hard. Without the prones the GWF has to play better in order to land the big hits. Make for more exciting matches. Taking away the prones really makes you have to be careful with encounters but I think this makes it more fair. Can't just run in and prone/roar and auto land your big hit. Def no more 1 rotation kills unless against really undergeared players though.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited June 2014
Well I like the concept of making Sentinel GWFs tanks and Destroer GWFS DPS.
The nerf to Unstoppable has just gone too far. I remember what GWFs where like back in Mod 1 when Unstoppable did not even grant Temp HP and had the 25-50% damage reduction only. And Back then GWF dropped like flies. Now They will die even faster. A dead GWF does no damage and is not wanted in any group.
Unstoppable needs to be 15-30% damage reduction at least. And even with that Sprint needs to be buffed to be on par with other classes shift powers. While granting dodge for the full length of a sprint may be a bit much but granting a Huge bonus to deflection and defeltion severity would be a step in the right direction. And by Huge I mean +100% deflection chance and +25-50% deflection severity.
Until then it is time to retire my GWF I did enjoy playing for the brief period it was useful But I Tried to play in pre mod 2 and gave up and GWF is obivous going that route. And yes I have done alot of test on previre server. I might just start playing HR. But I still think my CW main will hold it's own with these nerfs. Since GWF its only competitor is completely dead now.
Sentinels are more tanky, GFs are more tanky... If not well geared destroyer is squishy on live and even more squishy on preview. We need unstoppable with DR for keeping DPS at some level. I refuse to be senti "dummy". My role is aoe dps same as cw. And they took it from both classes. But CW still has his range... Well, we tested CN and have watched many deaths on my destro GWF. I started with IV destro but using skills like punishing charge to avoid red areas = small dps, then tested SM with instigator tree, same punishing, roar/flourish, ibs = no real dps, more squishy than IV. Finally, i got nice pt and run IV destro again [fls, restoring strike, ibs]. We fought with draco to half his hp and wiped (4 man, one leave before 3rd boss). Maybe coz i had to avoid mobs (singu doesnt help as much as before), draco moving made mess. Summarizing: even if GWF put PvP gear for draco fight he still cant properly facetank boss when mobs running around coz CWs (3 man) have hard time to cc/dps mobs and keeping them in one place with singu. They need more dps same as GWFs their DR. What is thauma without dps and what is destro without REAL unstoppable? Same as at beggining of my post, senti and GF are more tanky than destro on live server. When some GWF destro soloing dungeon he has big gs, r9-r10, legandary artifacts (emblemat keep him alive). And he doing this coz now we have some synergy between dps and survivality and mod4 will take it form us. No survivality for melee class fighting 1st line = no real dps. GWF sentinel and GF are tankers, not damage dealers and they stay alive coz tankiness, i stay alive coz i kill mobs ataking me before unstoppable ends.
Summarizing: even if GWF put PvP gear for draco fight he still cant properly facetank boss when mobs running around coz CWs (3 man) have hard time to cc/dps mobs and keeping them in one place with singu. They need more dps same as GWFs their DR.
This means that things are starting to go in the right direction! Stacking CWs and GWFs no longer pays off
Nope, few runs with rainbow party brings more deaths than runs with 3 cws and hr. So yeah, with mod4 it will be a little harder but CWs or GWFs still should be stackable. Like i said in GF feedback, its still not enough to take GF coz GF will die soon after taunt there. Imagine it on1st pack of mobs in CN... CW still have his range and stun 20 mobs which is better than taunt and instant death.
GWF have potential, i have played him before mod2 and i will play afer mod4. They can nerf us we will back and handle it like a man, not "we need more love" puppies.
Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't calling an "At-Will" that you can only use sometimes contradicting itself?
Basically now a fourth encounter? (With reduced damage)
I don't really understand the reasoning of increasing the effect of the power stat, then down the line having to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all skills to do reduced damage. Change power? That would be something.
Now npc monsters with power, blademasters in ToS, for example. Can take down a well geared gwf while unstoppable. So now that things hit harder we are getting LESS damage resistance?
More and more npc abilities are knocking me around, or just plain ignoring unstoppable's CC portion of resistance. Find my self running around dodging and chugging potions. So I am having a hard time finding what is so overpowered. If it is a balance in pvp is it out of the question to "While Flagged For PvP" -insert balance mechanic here-
Nerfing CW's and GWF's is WRONG (and my main is/was a GF). So people with 15k GS on CW/GWF run through CN too easy. Well duh, they have 5k gs more than than it was designed for. The problem is the other classes SUCK in comparison. Like electricpanties says, they are the fun classes (cw/gwf). Maybe that should TELL YOU SOMETHING. They are the ones that are right, the other classes are not. Buff the other classes, so at 14-15k, anyone can run thru CN, because you are 50% overgeared, you should be able to run through it.
People worry about power creep. If all the classes are on par with GWF/CW that is NOT power creep, that is balance. Lowering the GWF/CW to the other classes... the other classes are underpowered. Why would you add an expansion, and in the expansion you come out weaker than you were before. What sense does that make?
All that said, I am sure some nerfing/tweaking can be done. Maybe the CW changes are spot on, making them still powerful, but not insane. But if you nerf them to the level of a TR, or GF, or DC... now everybody sucks, no matter what class you are.
Its not just that CW/GWF are overpowered, the rest are gimped. If it was just that, you would see rainbow parties of 12k toons doing CN. ya it would be rough, but possible. I don't think it is. You dont see that, do you? Because, in order to do it effectively, you need the "OP" classes. If they are the ones that can do it, are they really OP?
Again, don't come back to me saying "its possible with x-y-z class", or "it could be done". We are talking about reasonably being able to do it.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited June 2014
I dont get the hole nerf in this modul .
The HR can facetank 6-10 ppl minimum 4 min and even kill some of them VS 6 ppl he can even kill all of them .
And what they got buffed to be a god i tested it my self, 20% ls from a single encounter i got back 8k hp cut it in half 4 k hp in pvp . I can show y some vid but its forbidden to do it.
So i dont get it why we cant have at least 1 prone ?
Somday i wish GWF was not implemented .
Why we dont have barbarian ? Or weapon master?
I will dig and show devs how many times they nerfed GWF .
But this time i think its too much comoon i can hit 24k with my 14.7k GS GF using KC+Bull Charge .
We hit hard yess . We have tankiness yess .
God dam it we have Great Sword AND Scale armor . Not knife and leather biker jacket.
Have y ever see closle a Great Sword ? If i hit it on a real human torso he will be dead by 1 swing .
If i hit whit knife he will have still time to make it to hospital .
the gwf is me fighting with a gf
this is the gf i was fightin
the idea is that i respec either Sentinel/destroyer still lost... and took only half of his life... there was another gwf around me who lost pretty badly he had more power...
so DEVS can you explain why i lost so badly?
btw this is the pic on gateway live , as he on preview has more hitpoints around 51k .
oh and i said for a GF player who come here to whine to make this SET and he said he needs LS for PVP , so what can i say more? only fake feedback from whiners.
We are making a change to the shift powers for all classes to make them more responsive and improve player survivability as long as you can react. Being able to shift out of encounters and dailies will make reacting a much more important factor in high end PVE and PVP combat.
Guardian Fighter: Block: Block can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Devoted Cleric: Dodge: Dodge can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Trickster Rogue: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Hunter Ranger: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Control Wizard: Teleport: Teleport can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
This change can have some serious impacts on balance, so when it reaches Preview we would like players to test it as much as possible, but we believe that players should not be punished for attempting to cast powers before an area is threatened. This change should alleviate much of that, as well as improving interactions for all the shift mechanics.
Gonna have to practice animation cancelling my sprint, a half second here a half second there, thank god though I don't have to worry about anymore nerfs for GWF's you guys nerfed everything, shhh don't tell these guys they didn't nerf surestrike, common guys please .
I should clarify this a little. This isn't animation cancelling. More specifically you can stop a power that is currently casting by activating your shift power, but it does not affect the target. Once a power has begun to affect people it cannot be cancelled (except some rare circumstances with maintained powers that go on a separate cooldown).
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
We are making a change to the shift powers for all classes to make them more responsive and improve player survivability as long as you can react. Being able to shift out of encounters and dailies will make reacting a much more important factor in high end PVE and PVP combat.
Guardian Fighter: Block: Block can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Devoted Cleric: Dodge: Dodge can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Trickster Rogue: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Hunter Ranger: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Control Wizard: Teleport: Teleport can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
This change can have some serious impacts on balance, so when it reaches Preview we would like players to test it as much as possible, but we believe that players should not be punished for attempting to cast powers before an area is threatened. This change should alleviate much of that, as well as improving interactions for all the shift mechanics.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I think its a good change but agan pls look on what i wrote "with some pic" pls reconsider Take down nerf give us at least 1 prone and give back the the dmg for takedown for sent/inst its realy a joke dmg .
Or redesing the sentinel or instigator path like HR new paths .
Whats about wicked strike? I have almost died few times because i cant run from aoe. This atwill keeping me back to mob when I try sprint on live server.
still you don't know what you sayn, i already said few posts earlier, nerf roar and destroyer purpose, but not the normal damage you give with FS/takedown/threating rush , and give sprint damage resistance when it isn't needed..
Lets keep this thread on topic. This is not the place for a personal discussion or talk about Guardian Fighters.
This 100%, a mod will probably remove the off topic issues.
Again Crush - Ill plead my case with you...
I understand what you guys are trying to do for BOTH PVE and PVP:
PVE: Making Destroyers LESS tanky so the GF can still fill the role of "tank"
PVP: Destroyers deal too much damage FOR their tankiness, making them hard to kill AND dishing out alot of damage.
Correct me if I am wrong here - I have been playing a LONG time and I think this is the issues your addressing.
Well the solution (to me) seems VERY simple.
For the PVE issue: Ok I get it, nerf Unstoppable, but an 80% NERF to Unstoppable? Why dont we tone that back a bit to 15-30% which is pretty much the unanimous feedback here. Combined with the Roar fix, I really think this will help alot of the problems in PVE. Another thing you could always look at is just removing Unstoppable Recovery HP gain and instead it grants regen or temp HP instead. This would also go a LONG way in balance (these small things are BIG trust me)
For the PVP issue: Ok, I get it here too, Trust me I understand the capability of Destroyers damage in PVP. I honestly thing the issue is easily solved though....
Destroyers Purpose - change this so the change to proc off ANY attack is 10% (down from 25%) this is ONE of the feats giving PVP Destroyers far too much damage. 10% makes this IMO not worth it in PVP where short streaks of combat occur, so getting even 1-2 stacks would be VERY hard with this change in PVP but not change it in PVE almost at all... Id even STILL suggest then making Destroyers Capstone 1% @ 30 stacks (down from 2% @ 20 stacks). This is only a MINOR DPS loss for PVE but ALSO would go a LONG way in balancing this class for PVP.
Overall - Destroyer maintains SOME of its tankiness in PVE but loses about 10% dmg. In PVP its still a melee force to be reckoned with however its damage has been toned down ALOT due to that ONE feat change (Destroyers Purpose). People wont be QQing about Destroyer damage with this change and TBH I really think this would balance the class.
NOW - if you want to take away control of the GWF, then keeping some Sprint utility is a decent way to go.
EITHER
OPTION A) Give back control and do zero sprint benefits besides movement
OPTION Remove control - like you have (still no need to reduce takedown dmg btw) and give sprint utility. I am completely against the CC IMMUNITY idea, but what I am for is EITHER 1) DR in sprint (can be in the form of deflection - which I would suggest BTW) or 2) CC RESISTANCE.
So what ALL these changes could look like:
1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% (or even removed)
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed.
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited June 2014
Mod req pls . We cant give feedback cuz devs need to see 20 -30 post not giving any feedback.
1) Unstoppable: 15-30% agree
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% agree
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks not good cuz unstoppable dont last so long to stack 30 *1% maybe 15% *2
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed. + we want to keep at least 1 prone but agree
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION not need
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE we will need this i agree
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
1) Unstoppable: 15-30% agree
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% agree
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks not good cuz unstoppable dont last so long to stack 30 *1% maybe 15% *2
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed. + we want to keep at least 1 prone but agree
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION not need
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE we will need this i agree
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
I like your suggestion.
15 stacks @ 2% each - this brings other weapon enchants back into play again since GPF was the "go to" for these stacks.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Sprint being able to cancel all powers is what caused animation cancelling in the first place. These powers can gain additional benefits from animation cancelling via Sprint:
Come and Get it! (enemies pulled, there is a 1.2 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Battle Fury (after casting, there is a 1.7 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Wicked Strike (similar to the old Weapon Master's Strike animation cancel issue, can be used to attack ~30% faster if perfected)
Unstoppable (after casting, there is a 0.5 second delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Frontline Surge (after casting, there is a 1.2 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Indomitable Strength (using Sprint after activating power, 2nd attack will continue to occur out of nowhere and send the target flying while player can use other attacks)
Animation cancelling Threatening Rush using Indomitable Battle Strike plays the animation of Threatening Rush and deals the damage of Indomitable Battle Strike, used mainly to shorten the cast time of Indomitable Battle Strike.
Savage Advance (after initiating, can sprint immediately while target will remain prone for full duration, as if power had animated normally - compare this to Cescendo, where using Sprint to cancel the power will end the stun effect on target early)
There's probably some others too.
The way to fix incidental animation cancelling / earlier reactivation of normal activity is to give powers a longer cast time, but reduced "idle" time after the effect starts.
Comments
Flourish - takes way too much time to cast,the animation is way too slow and lack CC immunity during it
FS ill probly stun for 0.25s
takedown stuns for 0.25s
so if u go SM or IV u will not do anything cause of lack of CCs
First of all i do have to say i agree with most of the changes as being PVE destroyer, the difference in DPS / survivabilty is not major.
Test run of CN was done on a 15k GWF PVE DPS destroyer : 7k power 4k Crit 1.2k recovery 2k defense 1k deflect 1k life steal with avatar of war set and dread legion weapon set. dailies spinning strike, avalanche of steel, at wills: Sure Strike, Threat rush encounters: restoring strike , IBS , frontline surge. class feats: destroyer , weapon master, i found this particular setup to be the best as it keeps the survivability at around the same levels, the DPS on the other hand was decreased by around 20% because of the need to move out of red which i am in agreement with a gwf like any other class should have the skill and game knowledge of what to tank and what to dodge : enough with the 18k fail GWF's that just tank everything and cause whole group wipes because of their inability to process information and live up to the expections, themselves and the group have upon seeing such a high GS. i do believe this will succesfully separate the actual gwf's from the poor wannabe's (the latter being mostly those who b*tch about the nerf and cry quit game, i can live with that). i'd like to mention that i do not play PVP with my GWF because i refused to use roar and would have been forced to do so by your common bug exploiters wanna be pros out there, therefore this is strictly from a pve point of view.
Group setup: 16k Spellstorm Thaum CW P.vorp, 16.5k Spellstorm Oppressor CW P.vorp, 15.3k Conq GF G, plaguefire, 16.6k Stormwarden archery P.vorp, 15k GWF IV destroyer P.vorp. we played without DC which i do believe having one would have speed things up a bit as the GF found himself in trouble pretty often, he did pull aggro off of the other party members without much difficulty , there was no more common pull boss to boss sort of gameplay followed by nuking them as it is currently the meta on live, progress was slow but constant.
GWF point of view.: with these changes the wicked strike rubberband needs to be fixed i tried using it and it just got me killed everytime i had to sprint out of danger, the marks from the IBS and Threat rush were not as many of you thought : insta-death because of full aggro, not at all, the GF was able to take most of it while the oppressor would constantly freeze everything in place, ofc the need to spam dailies as often as possible was increased due to the extra dmg received from the unstopabble change but any decent GWF would spam those anyways for extra DPS and crowd control. Bug report: on Xivros i tried using roar in the attempt to solo him and it seemed like it interrupts and stuns the boss i'm pretty sure this is not intended i suggest further testing. at the dracolitch fight almost every boss attack caused a severe loss in FPS and increase in latency this was the same for everyone so i do believe it is a server/game codding issue rather than computer/connection issue, which lead to multiple wipes after which we called it a day.
Overall impressions: all these changes combined are a complete game changer. imo most of them are necessary but toned down a little bit. Everyone will be forced to change their playstyle and builds which would allow for different party compositions and more challenging existing content. I do support the GWF changes and agree upon their necessity but i recommend to keep the CC immunity of sprint but remove it's damage resistance buff whilst at the same time increasing the DR of unstoppable to a 15-25% for destroyer spec. the current 5-10% is very low and dosen't allow the class to be enjoyed while playing it, the sprint immunity and CC resist is a nice way to compensate but i do believe this to be exploited by sentinel specs into creating an even more tanky GWF than current live is and result into keeping GF as useless as it is at the moment on live. don't even wanna think about possible PVP senti specs with the current sprint on preview. Not sure if u haven't implemented the charges changes to threat rush or if it is bugged but on my testing it did not have any sort of charge system, whilst this could be a good idea perhaps reduce the specified recharge time from 9s to 6s this will make the skill un-spamable but still useful i repeat i did not have any charges on threat rush during tests so i am not sure how this will actually perform with charges. Determination has a faster gain but also a faster drain which will most likely allow players to keep the destroyer purpose stacks up and have CC immunity but as mentioned before. the DR reduction is quite harsh.
The game is changing ladies and gentlemen and by the looks of it, it's a simple survival of the fittest great players will find ways, builds, party compositions to still enjoy the game, the crybabies will leave. i personally am happy with the GWF changing because at the moment it requires 2 brain cells to be the paingiver and immovable object at the same time while other classes struggle to get a group and most of the time they only get to run anything with guildies and close friends. for the developers your thoughts are in the right direction but you need to listen and take into consideration playerbase opinion, i'm not reffering here to people who just read the update notes and made a 2 sentence answer : "this is unacceptable. i quit. " but to people who have been loyal to the game and classes and have enough experience to help you out into creating the balance which is very much needed at this moment.
Thank you for taking the time to read this
Big problem : (first crit is not 100%its not always this big numbers)
Take Down now do stun in pvp super usless .
Take Down as a destroyer +feated +25%dmg +40% from DP from destroyer +feated +37.5%+10%unstoppable=live dps critt 18k-20k with 12k power perfect vorpal from 19k gwf in PVE.(Are y aware i almost reached my limits?)
ON peview 12k-14kcrit dmg.Same setup as destoyer.
Now look on instigator and sentinel.
12k power perfect vorpal from 19k gwf take down critt (base dmg 2680) crit 5000-6000 DMG wow .
I can imagine if the FLS(also stun super usless) will get the 33 % nerf will hit as sent and insigniator 12 power 19k GWF with p v. 3000-4000 dmg .
All my at wills deal much more dmg .
Now imagine with 4k power GWF sentinel (10-12k GS no perfect enchant)=1000-2000 dmg crit?You realy belive all GWF in NW have p.vorpal and 12k power?
Reconsider pls this nerf makes take down and frontline =at-will skills .
PS: wrote from mobile sorry for it
Also i have 15k GF my FLS deal 10-13k and i have only 10k power and i have only rank 7 enchants no vorpal only lesser p fire.
So you nerfed unstoppable because of how overpowered it is and then you give them unstoppable as a shift ability? so 2 unstoppable? So now destroyer built gwf are still going to be the really tanky and them deal the most dps? What will control wizards do now? what will any class do against them now? do you not understand that they are gods right now. This idea for sprint is horrible and will not be close to a balance for pvp. it was good the way it was and now you give them 30% damage resistance when sprinting and cc immunity? this is like wilds medicine. It is like you dont play your own game. You devs disgust me in your lack of common sense
The animation of Frontline Surge features three shields emanating from the source. For GWFs, I suggest that the animation be three Upright Great Swords instead. Since GWFs don't use shields, this seems to fit the class better.
Kind of a minor thing that won't disappoint me if not implemented, but I'm not sure if the idea has come across these forums before.
Winter: CW Chain Chill build -- I'm not good at it.
Aella: HR Theoretical ADC build -- There's a reason I'm on page 2000.
The nerf to Unstoppable has just gone too far. I remember what GWFs where like back in Mod 1 when Unstoppable did not even grant Temp HP and had the 25-50% damage reduction only. And Back then GWF dropped like flies. Now They will die even faster. A dead GWF does no damage and is not wanted in any group.
Unstoppable needs to be 15-30% damage reduction at least. And even with that Sprint needs to be buffed to be on par with other classes shift powers. While granting dodge for the full length of a sprint may be a bit much but granting a Huge bonus to deflection and defeltion severity would be a step in the right direction. And by Huge I mean +100% deflection chance and +25-50% deflection severity.
Until then it is time to retire my GWF I did enjoy playing for the brief period it was useful But I Tried to play in pre mod 2 and gave up and GWF is obivous going that route. And yes I have done alot of test on previre server. I might just start playing HR. But I still think my CW main will hold it's own with these nerfs. Since GWF its only competitor is completely dead now.
Sry for my english, cheers.
This means that things are starting to go in the right direction! Stacking CWs and GWFs no longer pays off
GWF have potential, i have played him before mod2 and i will play afer mod4. They can nerf us we will back and handle it like a man, not "we need more love" puppies.
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't calling an "At-Will" that you can only use sometimes contradicting itself?
Basically now a fourth encounter? (With reduced damage)
I don't really understand the reasoning of increasing the effect of the power stat, then down the line having to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all skills to do reduced damage. Change power? That would be something.
Now npc monsters with power, blademasters in ToS, for example. Can take down a well geared gwf while unstoppable. So now that things hit harder we are getting LESS damage resistance?
More and more npc abilities are knocking me around, or just plain ignoring unstoppable's CC portion of resistance. Find my self running around dodging and chugging potions. So I am having a hard time finding what is so overpowered. If it is a balance in pvp is it out of the question to "While Flagged For PvP" -insert balance mechanic here-
People worry about power creep. If all the classes are on par with GWF/CW that is NOT power creep, that is balance. Lowering the GWF/CW to the other classes... the other classes are underpowered. Why would you add an expansion, and in the expansion you come out weaker than you were before. What sense does that make?
All that said, I am sure some nerfing/tweaking can be done. Maybe the CW changes are spot on, making them still powerful, but not insane. But if you nerf them to the level of a TR, or GF, or DC... now everybody sucks, no matter what class you are.
Its not just that CW/GWF are overpowered, the rest are gimped. If it was just that, you would see rainbow parties of 12k toons doing CN. ya it would be rough, but possible. I don't think it is. You dont see that, do you? Because, in order to do it effectively, you need the "OP" classes. If they are the ones that can do it, are they really OP?
Again, don't come back to me saying "its possible with x-y-z class", or "it could be done". We are talking about reasonably being able to do it.
The HR can facetank 6-10 ppl minimum 4 min and even kill some of them VS 6 ppl he can even kill all of them .
And what they got buffed to be a god i tested it my self, 20% ls from a single encounter i got back 8k hp cut it in half 4 k hp in pvp . I can show y some vid but its forbidden to do it.
So i dont get it why we cant have at least 1 prone ?
Somday i wish GWF was not implemented .
Why we dont have barbarian ? Or weapon master?
I will dig and show devs how many times they nerfed GWF .
But this time i think its too much comoon i can hit 24k with my 14.7k GS GF using KC+Bull Charge .
We hit hard yess . We have tankiness yess .
God dam it we have Great Sword AND Scale armor . Not knife and leather biker jacket.
Have y ever see closle a Great Sword ? If i hit it on a real human torso he will be dead by 1 swing .
If i hit whit knife he will have still time to make it to hospital .
this is the gf i was fightin
the idea is that i respec either Sentinel/destroyer still lost... and took only half of his life... there was another gwf around me who lost pretty badly he had more power...
so DEVS can you explain why i lost so badly?
btw this is the pic on gateway live , as he on preview has more hitpoints around 51k .
oh and i said for a GF player who come here to whine to make this SET and he said he needs LS for PVP , so what can i say more? only fake feedback from whiners.
Guardian Fighter: Block: Block can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Devoted Cleric: Dodge: Dodge can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Trickster Rogue: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Hunter Ranger: Shift: Shift can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
Control Wizard: Teleport: Teleport can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive.
This change can have some serious impacts on balance, so when it reaches Preview we would like players to test it as much as possible, but we believe that players should not be punished for attempting to cast powers before an area is threatened. This change should alleviate much of that, as well as improving interactions for all the shift mechanics.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Chieftain
I think its a good change but agan pls look on what i wrote "with some pic" pls reconsider Take down nerf give us at least 1 prone and give back the the dmg for takedown for sent/inst its realy a joke dmg .
Or redesing the sentinel or instigator path like HR new paths .
This 100%, a mod will probably remove the off topic issues.
Again Crush - Ill plead my case with you...
I understand what you guys are trying to do for BOTH PVE and PVP:
PVE: Making Destroyers LESS tanky so the GF can still fill the role of "tank"
PVP: Destroyers deal too much damage FOR their tankiness, making them hard to kill AND dishing out alot of damage.
Correct me if I am wrong here - I have been playing a LONG time and I think this is the issues your addressing.
Well the solution (to me) seems VERY simple.
For the PVE issue: Ok I get it, nerf Unstoppable, but an 80% NERF to Unstoppable? Why dont we tone that back a bit to 15-30% which is pretty much the unanimous feedback here. Combined with the Roar fix, I really think this will help alot of the problems in PVE. Another thing you could always look at is just removing Unstoppable Recovery HP gain and instead it grants regen or temp HP instead. This would also go a LONG way in balance (these small things are BIG trust me)
For the PVP issue: Ok, I get it here too, Trust me I understand the capability of Destroyers damage in PVP. I honestly thing the issue is easily solved though....
Destroyers Purpose - change this so the change to proc off ANY attack is 10% (down from 25%) this is ONE of the feats giving PVP Destroyers far too much damage. 10% makes this IMO not worth it in PVP where short streaks of combat occur, so getting even 1-2 stacks would be VERY hard with this change in PVP but not change it in PVE almost at all... Id even STILL suggest then making Destroyers Capstone 1% @ 30 stacks (down from 2% @ 20 stacks). This is only a MINOR DPS loss for PVE but ALSO would go a LONG way in balancing this class for PVP.
Overall - Destroyer maintains SOME of its tankiness in PVE but loses about 10% dmg. In PVP its still a melee force to be reckoned with however its damage has been toned down ALOT due to that ONE feat change (Destroyers Purpose). People wont be QQing about Destroyer damage with this change and TBH I really think this would balance the class.
NOW - if you want to take away control of the GWF, then keeping some Sprint utility is a decent way to go.
EITHER
OPTION A) Give back control and do zero sprint benefits besides movement
OPTION
So what ALL these changes could look like:
1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% (or even removed)
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed.
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
1) Unstoppable: 15-30% agree
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% agree
3) Destroyers Capstone: 1% @ 30 stacks not good cuz unstoppable dont last so long to stack 30 *1% maybe 15% *2
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed. + we want to keep at least 1 prone but agree
5) Sprint now grants 30% DEFLECTION not need
or
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE we will need this i agree
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
I like your suggestion.
15 stacks @ 2% each - this brings other weapon enchants back into play again since GPF was the "go to" for these stacks.
Come and Get it! (enemies pulled, there is a 1.2 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Battle Fury (after casting, there is a 1.7 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Wicked Strike (similar to the old Weapon Master's Strike animation cancel issue, can be used to attack ~30% faster if perfected)
Unstoppable (after casting, there is a 0.5 second delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Frontline Surge (after casting, there is a 1.2 seconds delay before the player can normally act/attack again, sprint circumvents this)
Indomitable Strength (using Sprint after activating power, 2nd attack will continue to occur out of nowhere and send the target flying while player can use other attacks)
Animation cancelling Threatening Rush using Indomitable Battle Strike plays the animation of Threatening Rush and deals the damage of Indomitable Battle Strike, used mainly to shorten the cast time of Indomitable Battle Strike.
Savage Advance (after initiating, can sprint immediately while target will remain prone for full duration, as if power had animated normally - compare this to Cescendo, where using Sprint to cancel the power will end the stun effect on target early)
There's probably some others too.
The way to fix incidental animation cancelling / earlier reactivation of normal activity is to give powers a longer cast time, but reduced "idle" time after the effect starts.