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Official Feedback Thread: Great Weapon Fighter Changes
gentlemancrush
Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 445Cryptic Developer › Cryptic Developer
Greetings Adventurers!
Great Weapon Fighters have been dominating in PvP and we wanted to take this opportunity to dial them back a little bit by giving them some more severe choices to make when deciding between survivability and damage. On top of that we have also given them some improvements to Mark to increase their tanking utility. Please note that these changes are for Module 4, Tyranny of Dragons.
Overview
Great Weapon Fighters provided unparalleled mobility and striking power in PVP combat, and because of the way Unstoppable functioned they also gained incredible survivability at nearly no cost. We wanted to make this more of a choice and reduce the tankiness of high damage dealing builds, while still preserving how much survivability tanks can get. In addition we toned back their mobility with some changes to Threatening Rush.
Great Weapon Fighters have been dominating in PvP and we wanted to take this opportunity to dial them back a little bit by giving them some more severe choices to make when deciding between survivability and damage. On top of that we have also given them some improvements to Mark to increase their tanking utility. Please note that these changes are for Module 4, Tyranny of Dragons.
Overview
Great Weapon Fighters provided unparalleled mobility and striking power in PVP combat, and because of the way Unstoppable functioned they also gained incredible survivability at nearly no cost. We wanted to make this more of a choice and reduce the tankiness of high damage dealing builds, while still preserving how much survivability tanks can get. In addition we toned back their mobility with some changes to Threatening Rush.
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Comments
- Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Powers- Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
- Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.
- Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
- Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
- Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.
- Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
- Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
FeatsWe need to collect as much feedback as possible on this so we can tweak the feel and effects of Tanking in PVE and performance in PVP. Given that, we would like you to categorize and color code your feedback so we can sort it and act on it most effectively! Please use the below format to submit bugs/feedback.
Type: Bug/Feedback (Please only choose one)
Spec: (Please enter the spec that you are providing feedback for here)
Please use “Bold” face text for the Type & Spec then type your feedback in the body of your post. If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use BLUE.
(Concise Feedback & Screen Shots are much appreciated)
Examples:
Bug: Destroyer
Destroyer’s Purpose didn’t grant stacks while dealing damge.
Feedback: Sentinel
I feel like I don’t have enough tools to stay alive under fire now and it makes tanking too hard.
Please try to play for a few hours to get used to the changes. Thank you again for all your help Adventurers! We look forward to hearing back from you!
Chris “Gentleman_Crush” Meyer
Can you explain what you mean by determination no longer being subject to variance? What exactly has been done to normalize determination gain?
Determination used to be based on the damage taken (and damage dealt by Destroyers). Does this change mean it is simply going to generate passively in combat now?
Additionally while this is not an absolute mandate it would be immensely helpful if posts could be formatted in a concise and clear manner. Here are some tips to get your feedback hear loud and clear.
Bug: Destroyer
Destroyer’s Purpose didn’t grant stacks while dealing damge.
Feedback: Sentinel
I feel like I don’t have enough tools to stay alive under fire now and it makes tanking too hard.
or in the discussion threads:
Guardian Fighter Feedback Discussions
Great Weapon Fighter Feedback Discussions
Hunter Ranger Feedback Discussions
Control Wizard Feedback Discussions
Warlock Feedback Discussions
It actually was generating within a 10% swing of the damage taken value (or dealt for destroyers). Players shouldn't notice much difference but the numbers will now always be consistent rather than possibly being higher or lower on any given determination gain. This is mostly an under the hood change, but I felt it was important to let players know this was happening.
The real change missing to Great Weapon Fighters however is making the Iron Vanguard Paragon Powers scale to the comparable Guardian Fighter's weapon damage. At present, they deal roughly 120% more damage (read 220% of intended) than they should. Due to the huge damage Iron Vanguard Powers deal compared to Swordmaster powers on the Great Weapon Fighter, there is little reason to pick Swordmaster. For example Frontline Surge is always better than Flourish and Indomitable Strength is much faster in execution (and can be animation exploited) as well as dealing more damage than Crescendo.
Lastly, I still feel that the Iron Vanguard Paragon Feats were misplaced on the Great Weapon Fighter's Paragon specializations. There is no reason for Improved Reaction to be available for Destroyers (it should be Sentinel) for example. I would swap that with Battle Trample from Sentinel.
Vice versa for Swordmaster Paragon Feats on Guardian Fighter
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized."
Sounds good to me
Mark: Mark effects will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Awesome!
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.
Much needed!
Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
I am fine with this AS LONG AS the stun is long enough.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5-10% damage resist when activated (down from 25-50%)
This is frankly just stupid. This just killed the class for PVP. Sentinels already delt no damage, Destroyers were ONLY somewhat tanky due to roar stun + Unstoppable recovery heal. I could see a nerf of maybe 20-40% (down from 25-50%) but this is ridiculous guys... With the other changes, I actually think the GWF would be fairly inline with whats intended... This just killed GWFs in PVP.
Sentinel's Aegis Feat: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.
Unstoppable Recovery Feat: The heal from this feat will now properly respect healing depression.
So you removed the added defense which was pretty attractive to make Unstoppable do what it currently does? Nobody even had issues killing Sentinels on Mod 3...
Guys seriously, I have NEVER been one to shy away from talking about my own class and own enchants need a re-balance. But all of these nerfs are WAY over the top.
Already changing takedown+roar+unstoppable recovery + threat rush was already probably more than enough to hurt the class.. Think of it this way.
YOu gave NO survival mechanics to the GWF now. Unstoppable was the only thing that kept them alive because sprint is utterly worthless in dodging attacks. Maybe change sprint over to a teleport/roll/escape mechanic and MAYBE this will work, but with ZERO ways to avoid taking damage and zero ways to even chain attacks off, its going to make the class dead.
Also, I like the Threat Rush change but in order to make this work, there needs to be a "guarantee" it connects. Because right now you rubberband SO badly that its not even reliable - which is why the ONLY way to catch people was a ranged stun/prone (roar or FLS) followed by takedown+Indom Battle Strike (IBS).
Thats the combo that made people mad because you cant avoid roar really. Nerfing roar, nerfing threat rush, nerfing takedown are all fine, but it should stay with that...
Good point. When people have complained about the lack of a dodge mechanic on the GWF, people familiar with the class have pointed out that Unstoppable is the GWF's answer to immunity frames. 5% damage resistance is pathetic when gameplay was previously about using Unstoppable as a means of not dying. (I'm talking PvE.)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
For PvE, the change is quite small, as Lifesteal and massive AoE damage will continue to sustain the GWF easily, even with the reduced Damage Reduction.
Even currently with 2 GWF/2CW/1DC, the DC might not even slot any healing powers and focus purely on debuff. With these changes, healing/mitigation from the DC would be more worthwhile.
There will be fewer players able to run 3GWF/2CW or 3CW/2GWF parties with these changes, which is a good thing.
Sentinel Aegis = 40% more damage reduction than Destroyer
The only difference is that the 40% more DR is granted automatically, if we want BALANCE, then Destroyers should get the 40% dmg buff the same way Sentinels get the extra DR.
Can you explain what this means? - Edit: Was explained, if for all intents and purposes is the same? Cool by me!
Cool!
100% Needed, and I'm in full support of this.
I can see where the damage going down wouldn't be a bad thing, 30% is a bit much IMO.
Will need to test in PvP to see how this lines up IBS... But I still feel it should be a Prone Effect just based on name alone.
This? 80% reduction is utility? Seems way way way over the top. I'll test in PvE to see how much this will impact my GWFs abilities to survive against adds, not a fan of this change at all.
Terrible, IMO.
So it basically just keeps it where it was, yes? Seems kinda meh since Sentinel's get Unstoppable less then Destroyers/Instigators, but we'll see. I still think the DR cut of 80% was way to much.
Makes sense for PvP.
Once again, I guess I can see it for PvP, but it will be really hard to land IBS w/o a Prone IMO. We'll see...
9 Second recharge, in my opinion, is way too high... Unless that refresh cool down is affected by Recovery... If that's the case and it goes down to 5-7 seconds based on Recovery stat I could see it. Still think it's high and could/should be 6 second cool down before a charge is replenished.
Overall I don't see a major change for PvE outside of the Unstoppable DR change which I think is honestly, terrible.
Unless I'm missing something on how Determination is generated, we'll see I suppose...
Back to the drawing board I go! :rolleyes:
sentinel aegis-buff it so let it give +20-30% incoming healing bonus , if we spec sentinel we wont deal any dmg so let us have a bit more survaviblity.
also since u already killed unstoppable i suggest you to bring us our old Bravery class feature +15% deflect chance
bring back old Master At Arms feat where it give 3% deflect per stack instead of 2
and again since unstoppable is dead let the temp hp from it ignore HD + give us old +10-20% temp hp from it.
well I Agree and Disagree, with some of changes.
Feedback:
1.Roar: This power has been fixed .. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity.
overall good to hear that roar is fixed.
2. Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.
it is already difficult to meet/hit someone with Takedown
because this skill its realy easy to dodge.
so if we have to luck to hit someone, we dealt now 30% less dmg,that's a bit exaggerated.
15% less dmg could be reasonable.
3.Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5-10% damage resist down from 25-50%
that shocked me,Unstoppable is the main reason why Great weapon fighter is how is it.
That high reduction is not acceptable! /comprehensible.
we fighting on the frontline this is why the Resist are very important point/task .
We stay in the middle, and we gettin attack of all people around us.
how could we survive this now? it's impossible.
we can not stay in the background and attack we'r not ranged.
i understand that a reduction is necessary but that high reduction is not comprehensible.
15% - 35% damage resist could be reasonable.
[thanks for perceive.!]
Basically forces everyone back to Sentinel tree, dealing zero damage, having zero CC ability now. The issue with GWFs on live could have been delt with with a handful of the changes you guys implemented, not ALL of them.
If JUST the unstoppable change happened, that would probably still be a little overkill but id say Roar NEEDS to keep its 2 sec stun.
If you change roar+takedown stun + takedown nerf in damge+unstoppable recovery nerf - well thats probably ALL you needed to change honestly to make GWFs balanced.
Comments in blue above.
Suggestion: Would be great to get a buff for "Wicked strike" in the Destroyer tree somewhere, to make the class build more AoE viable. Currently this build is getting streamlined into more single target usage. Moreover, any buffs to Wicked Strike is unlikely to affect PvP gameplay.
Without having had opportunity to actually try it yet, I'm a bit concerned with regard to a Swordmaster Destroyer's ability to stay alive while swimming in a sea of red in epic dungeons with the amount of damage resistance being removed from Unstoppable. I'm afraid this is going to push GWFs back into the realm of not wanted on the voyage for PvE content.
Edit: Feedback: Instigator
Not seeing anything to make this unloved paragon in any way appealing.
Not really needed. Sure Strike is an AoE. People tend to overlook that.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Only the last hit is and the range of the AoE isn't that great compared to wicked strike.
SOLUTION:rework destro feats regarding takedown,but leave it base dmg as it is
Yes, you have to line it up. And not really that effective as AoE. And like I said, wicked strike would primarily be used in PvE, so the buffs would not result in any whinefests from PvP.
I'll concede that it would encourage build flexibility. But I'll counter that I'd much rather see Instigator buffed/reworked to the extent of actually being a viable AoE GWF, because that would encourage even more build flexibility,
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
This is very nice, by giving the players real options, you can be either Destroyer (DPS) or Sentinel (Tank). I'm curious to know what would be the real role of the Instigator now, being a fighter. Would it be support (granting CA, debuffs)? Less damage than a Destroyer but higher defense and higher damage than a sentinel but lower defense, they would be in the middle, maybe based in CC? We have seen plenty of threads of people asking that the Mighty Leap should have a knockdown effect or punishing charge pushing the adds with some knockback effect.
Probably like the physical version of "Oppresor" CW tree?
I'd love to see Instigator made viable as well. But same goes for at least one feat tree completely neglected (read-more or less useless) for almost all the classes (Just how many active toons out there with Oppressor or Instigator trees). Would be great to have more viable builds and diversity..provided it does not create disparity and imbalance.
As it is right now theres no point in playing it all .
Honestly, I'd like to see Weapon Master's Strike getting a buff from a paragon feat (Staying Power isn't that great of a feat on the Destroyer tree) to make Swordmaster more viable.