Any class changes or rebalancing confirmed?

reposterz · June 2016

Hey, just wondering about a few things:

1. Class changes, are there any obvious changes happening? Scourge Warlock at level 70 could use some rework and Devoted Cleric spells like Geas and Warding flare are still not commonly used powers...

2. PVP balance? Any confirmed attempts to make PVP powers more balanced and non-melee classes like Scourge Warlock or Hunter Ranger more effective against melee classes?

If you have any ideas to change classes currently, just voice them out, thanks. Would appreciate it if any solid confirmations are done.

mentinmindmaker · June 2016

Nothing official, but I can give you the following two items:
* Cryptic has said making hard dungeons is not really doable until the runaway dps classes are reined in. It is announced we get more hard dungeons in mod 10, so that indicates we also get class balancing.
* The fixes to LoL set and Pally invulnerability tanking really were required to just get started on proper balancing. So it is likely that round of nerfs just was done to provide useful data to actually rebalance all classes.

Balancing rounds always are a nervous process though.. once the players get their fingers into new class setups they often find combinations the developers did not consider. So who will be the new dps winner is entirely random. But hopefully this class balance process will be followed up by careful dps monitoring, so things will be fixed quickly if they do not turn out like the devs intended.

santralafax · June 2016

I think hunter could use a buff, and warlock *some* buffing. CW could use a light buff. That's about it. We just had a round of nerfs to GWF, Cleric and Pally. So now people are screaming bloody murder for the next nerf. (Hold nose.)

mentinmindmaker · June 2016

The various classes respond differently to high ILs. So while some classes might be balanced at 2,5k, at 3,5k the inbalance is very large. Also note that builds matters a lot, and it is the extreme dps builds that needs to be toned down.

The two big problems at the moment at high ILs are SW and GWF.. they can easily parse at 2-3 times my CW dps at IL 3.8k if built properly. Other classes seems to be more in line. If this inbalance is allowed to continue, we'll see 'looking for SW and GWF ONLY to do hard dungeons'. There already are people in PE looking for exclusively SW to do CN.

taitinhakkaaja · June 2016

Sw rework is confirmed. That was more than year ago

I think many of us sw players has just retired from playing with sw and moved to another class.

fastrean3 · June 2016

Why need to tune down gwf and sw? Their dps, the damage dealer, if they are no doing damage, then what they can don't. Really don't understand the tune down dps logic for these two class

fastrean3 · June 2016

And can you explain why in cn, cw can out dps gwf in the total dps count? What are the purpose that ask for nerf dps of gwf and sw? Really doubt

deathbeez · June 2016

I hope the nerf them/buff me bickering that's been going on the last couple months doesn't get us another mod6.
We're all biased and want our preferred classes to be powerful. So our input is going to be 1-sided.

fastrean3 · June 2016

I think instead of asking nerf class dps cuz they duel more than ur class, we should more require dev to design real challenge dungeons that actual require support class to control the mods, not just another dps check speed run dungeons

Btw, how many of us had tried to run a full buff party in any dungeons instead of day by day dps team?

jumpingmorks · June 2016

deathbeez said:
I hope the nerf them/buff me bickering that's been going on the last couple months doesn't get us another mod6.
We're all biased and want our preferred classes to be powerful. So our input is going to be 1-sided.

Agreed, devs shouldn't implement a single thing recommended by players when it comes to balancing. It's good for them to see how the skills they made are being used or in some cases abused but they have their metrics and should stick to them.

scylent · June 2016

I think someone hinted at it, but PvE balance is only needed at the lower iLvls and I am talking below 3K, Having rank 12s in your utility slots to get you to 4k should not be accounted for. I may be wrong, but I was maxed at defense and offense and was around 3.4 or 5.

At high ilvl the class that min/maxes better often does well. I really dont min/max much and cannot call myself a great player yet often times if not 80% of the time my SW is at the pain giver. With that said, it comes down to the fact that most people do not build their characters right and yet still want to get the same benefits of those who specifically target their stats. I am confident that when I do not get the pain giver it just means that person is either zerging more than me, plays better than me, is exploiting some mechanic, but at the end we have a kick HAMSTER group. I know what I can do and having some one or more who can ditch it out just means I can relax.

Where there needs to be balance brought up is definitely to allow people to play their class however they feel like. much of the different paths for classes are not optimal. specially when it comes to added benefits for the teams and being able to kill things when we play solo. I used to be a temptation warlock but I could not pull it off in mod 6, so I have not come back to it.

taitinhakkaaja · June 2016

I can only speak for sw, since i haven't played much with gwf. There are some broken powers with sw that deal massive damage aka. murderous flames that is known to hit over 200 million.
But main issue with sw is that it's only playable in pve with party buffs.
Whole pve part is a big joke now, there simply isn't any challenge and rewards for playing the game are really bad.

crainium#5721 said:

taitinhakkaaja said:
Sw rework is confirmed. That was more than year ago I think many of us sw players has just retired from playing with sw and moved to another class.
an I think you are incorrect, or dont know how to build your char, as we have several sw's in our guild who have no issue playing the game, an when they are online most of us are very happy as the sw dps is awesome.

Well guess i need to specify my points, since you clearly only see pve party situation. YES my sw can deal insane amounts of damage, when in party with buffs. my crit% is 100% and very close to BIS status anyway.
Problem with sw is that it's only good when played in party with buffs but that's it. It's like a fellow sw player said to me. He out dps'd 4k gwf in dungeon and yet he struggles to survive in wod when soloing.
Then there is the only aspect that i currently care in this game pvp. Sw is just pure garbage there, no burst damage, no dodge...

phaadnightsong · June 2016

Would the addition of a NEW class be considered a class change? With the coming of Storm King's Thunder to the game in the not too distant future, would it be a good time to bring up a possibility of Barbarians?

ajlir · June 2016

morenthar said:

Too many people get lost in DPS. If the game wasn't designed as a DPS race, we wouldn't be talking about DPS balance.

So much this. Unfortunately, if it weren't for the bugged Sentinel capstone and its feat paths that offer some shady tankiness that doesn't mean much on T2 mobs, I would have respec to that.

About the DPS race, GWFs seem to like IBS a lot but that's a HDPS encounter (you joined the wrong race, noob). DPS is either at-wills or damage over time encounters/at-wills. But, people from other classes don't like it for their massive damage but it is the only encounter that they have to stay relevant, well, with the melt that most people like to boast on T1.5 dungeons and Demogorgon runs.

strumslinger · June 2016

Yes, information on more class changes are coming down the pipeline. In fact, I've read the proposed changes myself.

jazzfong · June 2016

strumslinger said:
Yes, information on more class changes are coming down the pipeline. In fact, I've read the proposed changes myself.

Respec token ready, hope the bugs will be fixed along with the class changes. Perhaps a new class or new race is coming too.

taitinhakkaaja · June 2016

Exellent! Maybe i can finally awake my sw from hibernation.

gabrieldourden · June 2016

phaadnightsong said:
Would the addition of a NEW class be considered a class change? With the coming of Storm King's Thunder to the game in the not too distant future, would it be a good time to bring up a possibility of Barbarians?

Ehm.... the GWF (cosmetics aside) is the D&D barbarian. High damage, high mobility and unstoppable is basically rage.

gabrieldourden · June 2016

strumslinger said:
Yes, information on more class changes are coming down the pipeline. In fact, I've read the proposed changes myself.

Thanks Strum! Now I'll check the news every 20 minutes tough ....

deathbeez · June 2016

gabrieldourden said:

Ehm.... the GWF (cosmetics aside) is the D&D barbarian. High damage, high mobility and unstoppable is basically rage.

I've always seen the GWF has a barbarian.
But having a rage (unstoppable) with no drawbacks (more prone to damage and stamina drain) and totally spamable.

gankdalf · June 2016

strumslinger said:
Yes, information on more class changes are coming down the pipeline. In fact, I've read the proposed changes myself.

When? Been waiting for a long time now. PvP is super boring atm. In full BiS matches (premades) hardly anyone dies.

beckylunatic · June 2016

ejziponken said:

strumslinger said:
Yes, information on more class changes are coming down the pipeline. In fact, I've read the proposed changes myself.
When? Been waiting for a long time now. PvP is super boring atm. In full BiS matches (premades) hardly anyone dies.

Since we were told to expect to see class balancing changes on preview soon(TM) and we can also expect a preview build for M10 soon, it's reasonable to expect something live in August.

denisnwo · June 2016

strumslinger said:
Yes, information on more class changes are coming down the pipeline. In fact, I've read the proposed changes myself.

fine)

urabask · June 2016

clonkyo1 said:

strumslinger said:
Yes, information on more class changes are coming down the pipeline. In fact, I've read the proposed changes myself.

You should release the info ASAP to allow us test them deeply. Last time Devs did a "balance" job, we ended up with mod6 and the previous to that one, we ended with Mod4...

We just had the bubble nerf/GoH nerf/bonding "fix". That was pretty much a wash. I'd assume they're nerfing DCs and GFs now to see if they can actually stop 3ks from melting everything in seconds while taking no damage.

mentinmindmaker · June 2016

fastrean3 said:
Why need to tune down gwf and sw? Their dps, the damage dealer, if they are no doing damage, then what they can don't. Really don't understand the tune down dps logic for these two class

Ah.. the value of any non-tank non-healer class is 90% dps and 10% 'other'. So for all classes to have a meaningful role, their dps needs to be more or less the same.

If the dps classes are not more or less at same dps level, some classes likely will be shut out from doing the really hard content. I am fairly certain THAT is not something Cryptic can let pass.

We already see groups in PE asking exclusively for SW's to do CN. If we get REALLY hard content, that trend will become even worse if classes are not balanced on dps.

So looking into my magic crystal ball: The best SW and GWF dps builds will see significant nerfs to their dps with mod 10, bringing them in line with the other dps classes. Other classes might see minor buffing, depending on where Cryptic thinks the overall dps level should be.

And no - buffing everyone up to GWF/SW level is not really an option. That would completely trivialize existing content, and bring us to the mod 5 situation again.

hadestemplar · June 2016

I just love to drink coffee and read suggests where guys write own solutions to balance classes.
Even there are lot of good ideas. They all haven't even thought why we have such bad balance in first place.. And I can tell why.
Simply all toons are freaky overbuffed. If u strip away all boons, insignias, mounts, companions and leave only toons encounter + feats. U will have more like ok balance. But once guild + campaings boons, insignias, companions, mounts powers kicks in, then balance collapse.
For example, couple days ago I met player who where lv 4. and had power more than 10k. < So imagine situation what kind pvp looked like. he where DC, and he single handle kicked all enemy party without big problem..

I think without reevaluating all boons and buffs and artifact gear sets and other others powers interactions there will be no balance.
If now lets say we buff like CW, even slightly, u will have more higher stats than this guy in this image.
And I just love to point this image when CW's complain that their class are weak, and need small buffs.

So even if we add even minor changes for any class, final output still can be way higher than expected. Which lead some other players start to complain, starts nefing suggestions threads, or other class buffings and so one.. In other words this circle would never stop.

same goes for pvp, even without top end gear set, guy which stronghold boons can be more powerfull than other ones..

I can' wait to see new changes, but I don't put big hopes that it will bring big balance changes.

armadeonx · June 2016

The problem with any CC focused class is bosses are immune to CC, rendering them utterly useless in the bigger fights.

mentinmindmaker · June 2016

armadeonx said:
The problem with any CC focused class is bosses are immune to CC, rendering them utterly useless in the bigger fights.

Heh, CC is sort of useless on trash too.

CC is a game balance nightmare really. If it is too good, you trivialize content. If it is too weak, it is worthless. And a balanced middle ground between those two most likely do not exist

If you make content that *requires* CC, you add a requirement for a CC class to group build, which again leds to some classes being shut out etc. If you make content that does not require CC, any CC class is fairly useless.

mentinmindmaker · June 2016

bloodyspamer said:
I just love to drink coffee and read suggests where guys write own solutions to balance classes.
Even there are lot of good ideas. They all haven't even thought why we have such bad balance in first place.. And I can tell why.
Simply all toons are freaky overbuffed. If u strip away all boons, insignias, mounts, companions and leave only toons encounter + feats. U will have more like ok balance. But once guild + campaings boons, insignias, companions, mounts powers kicks in, then balance collapse.

There really are two separate issues here:
* How classes are balanced relative to each other
If this is off, we get unfortunate effects like some classes being shut out from content because they underperform
* Overall power in game
If this is off, game is either too trivial or too hard.

The devs need to find good answers to both.

Currently the balance between classes IMO is the bigger problem in NW. If they add(more than one!!!) hard dungeon so the high-geared people get something to die on, the overall power situation is not too bad. Currently 'game is too easy' argument comes from 3,5k+ people running IL 1600 content...

I did KR on my 3k-ish GF with everyone else in group below 2k. We won mostly because KR can't kill a 3k GF.. but it was slow as a snail and the low-gear people died frequently. So there is challenge out there, if you do content at the expected IL.

lukejones77 · June 2016

There really are two separate issues here:
* How classes are balanced relative to each other
If this is off, we get unfortunate effects like some classes being shut out from content because they underperform
* Overall power in game
If this is off, game is either too trivial or too hard.

The devs need to find good answers to both.

Absolutely, and it's critical that they don't fix the content balancing without fixing the class balancing.

Right now, parties formed with mature level 70s pretty much roll the content, badly enough that it doesn't matter too much who you take with you.
Leave the really bad class imbalances in place when you make the content appropriately difficult, and all of a sudden certain classes will find that they're actually irrelevant, and have difficulty getting an invite.

fastrean3 · June 2016

Suddenly thinking what is definition of the harder challenge content or difficult dungeon?
The mods have more hp, dr and damage to player or the dungeon really need each classes co-operate?

It looks like hard for them to balance by simply modify 1 or 2 things, each issue feel like build on top of each other and fall into bad loop due their marketing decision, lazy and bad content design over 9 mods.

If overpower can't be off, then how about change currently dungeons works to reduce the overpower affect?

1. Force each class to play their roles in dungeon. Imagining a boss fight, everyone get strong dps and healing debuff once get in boss room, to stop the debuff, classes with cc ability need to keep cc certain mods/items to interrupt the debuff, then the dps class can damage the boss, tank need hold the boss & mods and healer keep party alive as usual.

2. Split the dungeon difficulty base on item level, like lv2000, the boss as usual, lv3000 more adds and boss will stun player, lv4000 boss refect 20% damage and mods reflect 5%, and will first priority Attack player who cc the debuff mod/item.

3. If the dungeon difficulty split by item lv, then the reward should be different, lv2000 remain current live server reward. Lv3000 reward should slightly better and lv4000 reward should better alot(blood ruby, master crafting materials may be...)higher lv dungeon should had higher drop chance for certain items

Anyway, just my imagination, i know dev won't accept any of us suggestions, otherwise, the balance would had been done long time ago

Any class changes or rebalancing confirmed?

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