You are probably right and threads often derail into biggering if not every time.
But when it comes to class overall balance defending Cws current state as a class in being in balance with other classes trolling is a good word for it.....
Yes, I admit, I have been trolled. Ugh. I don't normally participate in these trolling contests, but it's very disheartening to see players attack another class, then attack the person defending that class. There is a lot of frustration here. I'm not sure where it's coming from? Is it that stupid paingiver chart at the end of dungeons? I hate that. I hate how it pops up after you kill the boss and you have to compare yourself against your team-mates. The best dungeon runs I'm in are when I don't have to compare how much DPS I do as a CW, people don't rush into mobs to get the highest DPS, and I can control, entangle, singularity, oppress forces and generally help other classes to do the best they can. For instance, if there is a GWF or HR in the group, I like to group mobs together so they get taken down quickly. If the DC is pulling too much aggro and the tank has enough on their hands then I like to stun, push or freeze enemies away. I like team work. I like the powers that my CW has. I don't think they are going to be overpowered in Mod 6. I think that we will all struggle. You'll need a strong CW on your team. I also want the SW to be strong and heal (the latest release notes say that the devs are trying to preserve that side to them).
When there are good players playing their class well, then they should be applauded for helping their team out, not looked at as a competitor, not seen as OP (unless it is obvious in certain domains: PvP I'm looking at you - but even then, that forces us to play our classes better). If you play your class well, if you have a good guild or group of friends, you won't be left out in Mod 6. If it's that fear, then I'm not sure nerfing another class is the answer. You'll still be stuck with your same character.
Never underestimate the power of Humor and Irony :cool:
0
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited March 2015
Nice thread, thanks for sharing the mechanism of CW's shield, and thanks the math wizz on analysing how powerful this shield actually is. Thank you all.
In term of stat rating in mod 6, a broken shield (not on TAB) represent 10.000 defense (unmitigable).
Maybe it's too much for a lonely power and I think everybody would like to slot an encounter who give 10K stat points.
In term of stat rating in mod 6, a broken shield (not on TAB) represent 10.000 defense (unmitigable).
Maybe it's too much for a lonely power and I think everybody would like to slot an encounter who give 10K stat points.
oh how much does 100% crit represent that be nice to have also...
I hate CW (Yes i am hater). If Dps DC is a glass cannon, then CW is a metal cannon tower firing at machine gun rate, stunning all target it hits. This class is really son of the devs, pampered like a baby. Nerf them!!
From a poor CW prey, heavily countered in every aspect if encountered since beta.
I kinda want to see this thread locked, this is just a rantfest insulting my class and any other people who have tried to argue using factual evidence, it's a shame that it has to come to this but all of the trolls have ruined this thread, there is no salvaging it now...
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited March 2015
A lot of people here don't realise how a DnD wizard is far superior to a CW in this game and they should be happy the wizard here is nowhere near that powerful. If we were to go off DnD wizards, we could justify making the CW so much more powerful then any other class that people would only play wizards. May I remind people of spells like invisibility, improved invisibility, time stop, invulnerability, tensar's transformation, gate, contingency, chain contingency and summon planetar. You say..."how could a wizard possibly have an ability like shield?!" however, in dnd, spells like shield existed and were a lot more powerful then they are here. They say..."how can chaos magic heal?!!" well, I am sure a wild mage might accidentally cast a spell that heals unintentionally. Just remember, the majority of your preconceived justifications of how powerful a wizard should be and what they can do is nowhere near in line what they could do historically in DnD, so be happy about it for once would you?
and btw, @abaddon, this is the first time anyone has pointed this out, but the thread title states this is part 1...what is the agenda for part 2?
I hate CW (Yes i am hater). If Dps DC is a glass cannon, then CW is a metal cannon tower firing at machine gun rate, stunning all target it hits. This class is really son of the devs, pampered like a baby. Nerf them!!
From a poor CW prey, heavily countered in every aspect if encountered since beta.
maybe this is a troll message. but what the heck. Dude. I've been playing a CW since BETA. All I have seen since then is the continuing, incessant, bull s*** nerfing and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over of the CW class.
In PvP, the only classes I can consistently take down are HR's and other CW's. I am the favored and constant target of GWF's and TR's especially. TR's who are 2000 (yes, TWO THOUSAND) {or more!} GS below me ROUTINELY ONE-SHOT me.
So my obvious reaction to your blatant BS statement is laughter and incredulity.
To some of the other people here... could you PLEASE send me a link or a message showing just HOW you are purportedly getting 70 K HP's on a CW? My current 15 K GS build has 25 K Hp's. That's it. It'd be nice to at least have an IDEA how to get say, 35k HP for my frequently killed wiz.
As for shield, excellent introductory explanation and interesting discussion. I actually learned a few things. But it's a power that I stopped using due to it's limited capacity. Excellent DR for ONE shot doesn't mean squat when your opponents take that into account. AND since a CW is so darn squishy and LACKS massive big damage like say, Lashing Blade for TR's, one shot protection is not NEARLY enough.
A lot of people here don't realise how a DnD wizard is far superior to a CW in this game and they should be happy the wizard here is nowhere near that powerful. If we were to go off DnD wizards, we could justify making the CW so much more powerful then any other class that people would only play wizards. May I remind people of spells like invisibility, improved invisibility, time stop, invulnerability, tensar's transformation, gate, contingency, chain contingency and summon planetar. You say..."how could a wizard possibly have an ability like shield?!" however, in dnd, spells like shield existed and were a lot more powerful then they are here. They say..."how can chaos magic heal?!!" well, I am sure a wild mage might accidentally cast a spell that heals unintentionally. Just remember, the majority of your preconceived justifications of how powerful a wizard should be and what they can do is nowhere near in line what they could do historically in DnD, so be happy about it for once would you?
and btw, @abaddon, this is the first time anyone has pointed this out, but the thread title states this is part 1...what is the agenda for part 2?
FINALLY. Someone says it. I have ONE name... ELMINSTER. Anyone go feel free to look into the various D&D books in print. Or maybe play some pen and paper Gaming. It's not a fighter, a ranger, a thief or an assassin that is the MOST POWERFUL and FEARED individual in the world.
It's a ..... Mage. In your face all of you jerkweeds who maligned CW's or have called them "supporting" characters.
In reading through the various feedback threads I'm getting the distinct impression that there are a lot of people who have a very poor understanding of how the mechanics of the Control Wizard class. People tend not to understand what spells do and how they work. Nonetheless, some still attempt to provide feedback based on their misconceptions rather than reality. I'm setting out to correct a few of the more egregious statements I've seen.
I'm an experienced CW who has done a boatload of testing on all CW abilities and feats. Furthermore, I'm not an apologetic hack when it comes to my class. I do not want to be overpowered and I've provided a large amount of feedback in threads pointing out things that are broken in favor of CW's that need to be fixed.
With that in mind let's correct one really dumb statement that's been floating around the boards lately. And that is a statement to the effect of "CW's are the best tanking class in the game because of Shield."
Here's how Shield works: when this spell is slotted and is cast it provides damage resistance.
If Shield is slotted in a normal encounter slot it provides 50% Damage Resistance to the first hit it takes. Then it provides 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will not "reset" until the CW is not hit for 6 seconds.
If Shield is slotted on tab it provides 80% DR to the first hit it takes, 50% to the second hit it takes, then 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will reset to the 50% DR after 6 seconds of not being hit. Then 80% after not being hit for 6 more seconds.
Analysis: Shield is great 1-shot protection, and not much more. If you're fighting a boss and make a mistake and get caught in a red area, shield will save you. But that's really the only situation it saves you from. If there are trash mobs while fighting a boss those trash mobs will bring your shield down with arrows or whatever other weak attacks they use. The useful part of the Shield is spent mitigating damage that didn't need to be mitigated, then the far less effective reduced shield is the only help you get against a boss attack.
As a means of "tanking" it is near useless. A CW with an extra 25% DR is still a worse tank than most any other class. Keep in mind that CW's have low Armor Class, CW armor has low defense/deflect, and CW's have no feats which increase durability. My CW has around 30% DR on live, but because of the re-worked stat curves only has about 10% DR on preview.
Clearly a GF with his shield up tanks damage far better than that. It is utterly moronic to claim otherwise. The same goes for a Paladin that has chosen the protector path.
A GWF has many ways to get higher DR: higher Armor Class, feats that increase durability, feats and abilities that grant lots of temporary HP, running, and Unstoppable. While an argument can be made (correctly, I think) that a GWF doesn't have enough survivability for Mod 6 content given that they have to be in close range all the time, the reality is that a GWF is still significantly more capable of tanking than a CW with shield. The only time a CW will out-last a GWF in taking damage is if each is hit by one big blow right at the start of a fight. Then the 80% DR of Shield will outperform the DR a GWF has. But in every other possible scenario a GWF will have better tanking capability. During a recent run on the preview server I saw a GWF build up over 400,000 Temporary HP during a fight. I would gladly trade my little purple bubble for the ability to do that.
A DC is better able to tank damage as well. All they have to do is cast an empowered Astral Shield at their feet and they get high DR that doesn't evaporate after 1 or 2 hits, it applies to more than just themselves, and heals them. I've yet to see a thread about how Astral Shield should be removed from the game because it allows DC's to tank better than a GF. And that's because such a thread would be dumb and everyone knows it. But we do see threads stating similar nonsense about CW's Shield even though that's just as dumb. The only difference is people don't know it.
Tr's have Stealth. That provides such a preposterous increase in survivability that it is game-breaking when used properly. In a "who is going to survive longer" in a boss room with overpowered adds there's no competition between a shielded CW and a perma-stealth TR. Even non-perma TR's would readily admit that they have an easier time staying alive than CW's because anytime they get in trouble they can just duck into stealth and get out of trouble. Even moreso when then things like Shadow Strike and Lurker's Assault are slotted. Sure those hurt DPS, but they also make a TR ridiculously hard to kill. Far more than a purple-globed CW.
Arguments can even be made about HR's with crazy-high deflect and Temptation SW's with their enormous healing potential have very good survival tools as well.
Anyway, the point is anyone claiming that Shield is overpowered because it makes CW's too tanky just doesn't understand how limited its usefulness is beyond one-shot insurance. They do not know what they are talking about.
I've yet to be in a competent group where someone says "I have an idea...let's have our CW put on Shield and tank away."
Kite? Sure. CW's can run around and dodge to stay alive. Just like DC's and TR's, and HR's can. What they cannot do is stand toe-to-toe with an enemy absorbing damage like a tank can. They can take one good hit (or one tiny hit) before folding like a card table against repeated blows.
How many player need to say to you Feytouched is too powerfull , it steal the enemys power (dps boost).
So how unstoppable work now ? your dmg boost = your temp hp boost.
So mobs usly hit super hard i dont know exactly whats they dmg boost stat but i think its huge so feytouched draw super boost for short time .
This is why unstoppable give 400k temp hp or GWF can deal 900k restoring dmg.
But the thing is CW can do 1.4 mill desintegration with this too.
Feytouched is too powerfull to hit live .
Sorry for bad english but i am sure you undestand what i want to say .
I hate CW (Yes i am hater). If Dps DC is a glass cannon, then CW is a metal cannon tower firing at machine gun rate, stunning all target it hits. This class is really son of the devs, pampered like a baby. Nerf them!!
My lvl 60 anointed champion dps DC has 27% damage resistance on preview server in well of dragons WHILE WEARING HIGH PROPHET.
with rank 4 anointed armor (class feature).
Light of divinity (class feature) gives me a small 2k heal every 3 seconds. It's small but requires no work.
I can cast divine glow on my self (for healing) when my HP is low.
4 consecutive dodges.
It's not a tank but it's also not a glass cannon.
My lvl 60 CW in high vizier has only 12% damage resistance (not including shield) in well of dragons.
0
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
FINALLY. Someone says it. I have ONE name... ELMINSTER. Anyone go feel free to look into the various D&D books in print. Or maybe play some pen and paper Gaming. It's not a fighter, a ranger, a thief or an assassin that is the MOST POWERFUL and FEARED individual in the world.
It's a ..... Mage. In your face all of you jerkweeds who maligned CW's or have called them "supporting" characters.
"Nuff said.
I have another name, Raistlin!
Edit: I see morenthar has just mentioned him slightly before me...
FINALLY. Someone says it. I have ONE name... ELMINSTER. Anyone go feel free to look into the various D&D books in print. Or maybe play some pen and paper Gaming. It's not a fighter, a ranger, a thief or an assassin that is the MOST POWERFUL and FEARED individual in the world.
It's a ..... Mage. In your face all of you jerkweeds who maligned CW's or have called them "supporting" characters.
"Nuff said.
You are soo wrong ELMINSTER class is : Warrior/ rogue/wizard .
Also Controll wizard is the weakest sister of mage/wizard/sorcerer.
The data we have so far just indicates that GWFs will be able to become far too tanky in PvP. It's obviously a problem that we can't test it.
Let's take Deflection.
High Dexterity, can add Dex belt: 7-10%.
Slot Bravery and off-hand feature: 12%.
Scale Agility feat: 5%.
Halfling: 3%.
Basic Elemental PvP Gear: roughly 3,400 deflection (about 8%).
Other gear: roughly 1,200 from the weapon and offhand (another 3%), rings for about 700 (close to 2% more), then there's artifacts, cloak, belt and underwear -- let's say 10% more.
Slot Warrior's Courage: +12% while under 25% hit points.
Now we're up to more than 50% deflect, and can slot seven silveries for another 11% or so. Total: 64%, or 76% while below 25% hit points.
Then let's take DR.
Base 6.5% + 8.5% from same set as above: 15%.
Other gear and artifacts will probably add a bit too: 5% should be gettable at a conservative estimate.
Slot a Negation: +3% per stack, up to 30%. (Barkshield is also a fine alternative given the massive deflection involved, and will be better against early burst damage, but would add less later; for the rest, let's stick to the simpler numbers of the Negation)
Slot Warrior's Courage: +20% while under 50% hit points.
Countless Scars feat: +1% DR per hit, up to 15%.
Hit Sprint, add +30% to above, hit Unstoppable, add +15-30% to above.
Net result: DR that maxes out around 100-115%, from a soft starting point of 20%.
Because of the way Tenacity Armor Penetration Resistance works, Defense also scales faster than resistance ignored from gear, which favors heavy Defense. So we could slot azures instead of silveries for more Defense in good conscience.
All things told, we can get a GWF at 25% health rampaging around at close to 80% deflection and 80% (effective) DR. On average, he'll be taking 8% of incoming damage. Is that a best-case scenario? In a sense. The GWF must take a lot of damage to get there, but that benefits him in triggering Unstoppable anyway. Will he survive that long? Depends on the hits. Most classes are rather limited in their big hits before they have to start using at-wills. Some classes have a lot of dots.
Take Armor Specialization, Ubiquitous Shield and especially Unstoppable Recovery on top of all that.
Now we have a few synergies kicking in:
1) determination gain based on pre-mitigation damage.
2) GWF mitigation can be set up in several ways so they take less damage the more they get hit.
3) GWFs get temporary hit points that scale with damage bonuses and stay after the state ends.
4) Unstoppable Recovery heals for 2.5% of maximum hit points.
That may not sound like much, except that past a certain point, the GWF will have a massive wall of deflection, DR and temporary hit points soaking up all real damage, while determination comes from the full damage taken before that. Leading to a nearly constant state of Unstoppable and taking very little real damage. Now, it could possibly *not* count the deflected damage or something, but it's probably the worst-case scenario of GWFs becoming virtually immortal. The GWF would take 8% of full damage, which would come off of temporary hit points first, and periodically heal for 2.5% of his maximum hit points, which at that point is more like 30%.
So now we'll have Destroyers running around like that. You could argue that taking three Sentinel feats like that would be a huge sacrifice of DPS (and not getting Powerful Challenge or being able to slot Destroyer), but slotting Shield in tab is a huge sacrifice for CWs too.
In the next module, GWFs must be burst down early and fast, or else they won't die at all. Which means GWFs will **** over any class that relies on dot damage (SWs) and only be killable by those with massive burst damage and prones (TRs, GFs and CWs). This is also the reverse of the CW's Shield -- CWs can tank an initial first hit well, but get weaker over time. GWFs will function the other way around and ultimately be much tankier.
The problem here is that this configuration makes GWFs too tanky in PvP and still not tanky enough against the big hits that are evidently coming in PvE currently (which sound bugged, most of all, or maybe they want each party to stack a KV GF + Healer DC + OP).
Theorical yes you can achive this but then you will have zero dmg to beat any one and , you forget w/o any regeneration stat.
Also its total pointless cuz TR will still one shot you cuz first stike lashing blade shoking have 4th rank now and you dont have the time to build up those DR's and Deflect chance .
GWF have still no chance aganst SS proc and Shoking /piercing dmg.
On live i have 80% capped DR and 50% deflect SS proc can deal to me around 10-15 k dmg /proc from eq graded CW.
Each match end up 2 tr with our side and 2 tr with enemy side .
So i switched to half-glass cannon build at least i have 1-2 sec chance to do high brust to the TR (and hope she/he die before i die) hou always hunt GWF cuz they know i am an easy pray.
GWF starts, let's say, with 40% DR. Up to 70% with unstoppable or sprint. So we can say a GWF is consistently mitigating PvE damage that much. Fighting in melee range, takes hits 99% of the time. This also must be taken into account.
CW can have up to let's say 20-25% DR. Now we can add 50% on first hit= 70-75%. Considering CW is a ranged class AND controls the enemy most of the time during a fight, PLUS got IMMUNITY dodges, we can assume that a good CW only takes sporadic hits, being able to consistently regenerate his shield.
With shield on tab, a CW can consistently mitigate 2 big hits AND dodge with IMMUNITY and CONTROL from RANGE.
All in all, in PvE. considering all the defensive tools at disposal, a CW has better survivability.
PvP:
Big difference here.
GWF has let's say, in PvP setup, 46-50% normal DR. Add unstoppable and sprint, you hit the 80% cap with PIERCEABLE and DEBUFFABLE DR. The class got no dodges and fights in melee range with less control over the enemy.
CW has let's say up to 30-33% or more DR (i got that much on my old CW alt in low gear), and gets 80%-50%-25% UNPIERCEABLE and UNDEBUFFABLE DR, along with dodge IMMUNITY and more control over target.
Hands down, in PvP a CW has far, far more survivability, considering both classes in PvP build, right now get up to the same amount of HP.
Ranged+ immunity dodge+ absolute DR + more control beats, hands down, any DR a tank fighter can get right now.
The big error non-fighter classes do right now is to think "they got more armor, they are tankier".
Wrong.
It was true in the past. Right now, DPS amount and debuffs/ piercing damage are so high that absolute defenses like immunity dodges, being ranged and undebuffable/ unpierceable shields.
As a simple example, even the base 25% "absolute" DR from CW shield beats, hands down, 30% unstoppable DR which can be, and most of the time is, debuffed or pierced. 80% absolute DR on tab beats, hands down, the 80% "normal" DR burst on a sentinel tank.
Immunity on dodge allowing, for example, my DC to 100% avoid a ice knife or SE beats, hands down, the 30% DR on sprint. Simply beacause if i dodge a 20-30k IK or a 40k SE i take no damage. I can be debuffed, damage can be in any form, doesn't matter: i get out of it unscathed and CWs, DCs, TRs, all can dodge A LOT so the "uptime" of the shift gets a lot closer to sprint considering feats and faster stamina regeneration, while the effectiveness is on a whole different level. If i time my sprint on the same moves i still get MASSIVE damage. If i get debuffed or damage is piercing damage i get close to full damage or full damage (see SE one-shots on GWFs).
As i stated many times, old good DR is, and will be even more in module 6, almost useless.
You've set up a GWF fully orientated on tank in feats and passives. Now, where's the damage of such GWF compared to a CW with shield on tab or a TR? Far behind.
Negation is available to all classes. It's not an argument.
DR can be debuffed a lot on every source you mentioned GWF have access to. And can still be pierced.
So DR is, again, not an argument unless you make it working like CW shield.
Only valid point is deflection chance. But:
Halfling is available to all classes. Not an argument.
DEX belt means you sacrifice something else like HP or STR.
You counted belt 2 times (at the start, then counting underwear)
Silveries are, again, available to all classes.
Ubiquitous shield...lol. Give up 25% crit severity and 2% crit chance, which means again you give up offense a lot.
I see much theorycrafting what i'd say is:
How much more defelct/ DR GWFs get COMPARED TO now?
Warriors courage is 9% deflect and 15% DR.
Elemental set LOSES the set bonus so actually you get LESS deflection from there.
And 15% DR pierceable/ debuffable from countless scars, less effective considering damage is burst and burst is not delivered after 15 hits.
GWF will not get much more defensive stats and GWF DR will still be weak and pierced/ debuffed.
Considering DPS will be higher too (you know, other classes get DPS buffs too, and a lot), what makes you think GWFs wil ltank more except some flawed theorycrafting?
some rapid math.
in the worst scenario cw shield offers 25% unmitigable dr + control resist.
this means theorically a dps loss of 25% however an effective gain in defense stats given by 25x400 = 10k points stat gained.
that 25% dps loss can be gained back by increasing every encounter damage by 8%, this means 400x8 = 3200 more power needed. Effective gain = 10k - 3.2k = 6.8k.
and then we have free heals, free armor pen, possibility to achieve 100% critical chance with little to no efforts, free damage for millions by storm spell and with icy veins another 40% damage buff with 100% uptime with no skill required at all.
back to shield: its clearly overperforming especially if compared to gwf and gf.
its fun how things get nerfed to unplayability when are must have for other classes while if its must have for cws everything "magically" becomes balanced.
Shield really sucks outside of pvp, and even there it's a very situational power. As soon as there's a DoT it's worthless, and there are dots everywhere. I don't understand why people still use it. Well at least they wear the purple glow of shame which is the kind of red flag I like to have to know how good the player is going to be.
In PvE a good CW can definitely stunlock non CC immune NPCs. There's really no need for a mere 25% extra DR when you can achieve that.
Shield really sucks outside of pvp, and even there it's a very situational power. As soon as there's a DoT it's worthless, and there are dots everywhere. I don't understand why people still use it. Well at least they wear the purple glow of shame which is the kind of red flag I like to have to know how good the player is going to be.
In PvE a good CW can definitely stunlock non CC immune NPCs. There's really no need for a mere 25% extra DR when you can achieve that.
25% absolute DR in the worst case sucks? When you also are ranged, have CC and can immunity dodge? So we have CC (first defensive layer), dodge immunity (second defense layer) and a 50-25% or 80-50-25% absolute mitigation if caught.
Even with DoTs the minimum amount of DR is 25% and it's absolute, unpierceable and undebuffable.
In PvP that also means a fighter can effectively get through CC (first layer), depleting stamina, then must get through the CW immunity dodges (second layer) then, when finally catches up, must first at-will to deplete the shield (wasting time the CW uses to regenerate stamina and teleport more) then burst or much of his DPS are wasted.
If barkshield-like shield with lowest absolute DR at 25% is useless, what is 30% DR debuffable/ pierceable on sprint and our very own class mechanic unstoppable (after losing roughly 40-50% HP for full bar)?
I don't know about all classes, could some who does know please post what classes have a feat/feature/ability to achieve this?
Or it this just a CW shield thing?
Thanx
I don't know about all classes, could some who does know please post what classes have a feat/feature/ability to achieve this?
Or it this just a CW shield thing?
Thanx
25% absolute DR in the worst case sucks? When you also are ranged, have CC and can immunity dodge? So we have CC (first defensive layer), dodge immunity (second defense layer) and a 50-25% or 80-50-25% absolute mitigation if caught.
Even with DoTs the minimum amount of DR is 25% and it's absolute, unpierceable and undebuffable.
In PvP that also means a fighter can effectively get through CC (first layer), depleting stamina, then must get through the CW immunity dodges (second layer) then, when finally catches up, must first at-will to deplete the shield (wasting time the CW uses to regenerate stamina and teleport more) then burst or much of his DPS are wasted.
If barkshield-like shield with lowest absolute DR at 25% is useless, what is 30% DR debuffable/ pierceable on sprint and our very own class mechanic unstoppable (after losing roughly 40-50% HP for full bar)?
put a barkshield on and that 25% is more likely to be a stable 50%
0
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
I don't know about all classes, could some who does know please post what classes have a feat/feature/ability to achieve this?
Or it this just a CW shield thing?
Thanx
CW shild (tab 80-50-25% not tab 50-25%) GF block (80%) and TR ITC(50%) DC A.Shild (30%)
Comments
Yes, I admit, I have been trolled. Ugh. I don't normally participate in these trolling contests, but it's very disheartening to see players attack another class, then attack the person defending that class. There is a lot of frustration here. I'm not sure where it's coming from? Is it that stupid paingiver chart at the end of dungeons? I hate that. I hate how it pops up after you kill the boss and you have to compare yourself against your team-mates. The best dungeon runs I'm in are when I don't have to compare how much DPS I do as a CW, people don't rush into mobs to get the highest DPS, and I can control, entangle, singularity, oppress forces and generally help other classes to do the best they can. For instance, if there is a GWF or HR in the group, I like to group mobs together so they get taken down quickly. If the DC is pulling too much aggro and the tank has enough on their hands then I like to stun, push or freeze enemies away. I like team work. I like the powers that my CW has. I don't think they are going to be overpowered in Mod 6. I think that we will all struggle. You'll need a strong CW on your team. I also want the SW to be strong and heal (the latest release notes say that the devs are trying to preserve that side to them).
When there are good players playing their class well, then they should be applauded for helping their team out, not looked at as a competitor, not seen as OP (unless it is obvious in certain domains: PvP I'm looking at you - but even then, that forces us to play our classes better). If you play your class well, if you have a good guild or group of friends, you won't be left out in Mod 6. If it's that fear, then I'm not sure nerfing another class is the answer. You'll still be stuck with your same character.
Never underestimate the power of Humor and Irony :cool:
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Maybe it's too much for a lonely power and I think everybody would like to slot an encounter who give 10K stat points.
oh how much does 100% crit represent that be nice to have also...
From a poor CW prey, heavily countered in every aspect if encountered since beta.
|| Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
Erza Moonstalker | Lara Moonstalker | Julie Marvell | Erza Moonhunter | Annie Hellangel | Jenn Moonstalker
Thaumaturge's Time To Shine: A Complete Guide
and btw, @abaddon, this is the first time anyone has pointed this out, but the thread title states this is part 1...what is the agenda for part 2?
maybe this is a troll message. but what the heck. Dude. I've been playing a CW since BETA. All I have seen since then is the continuing, incessant, bull s*** nerfing and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over of the CW class.
In PvP, the only classes I can consistently take down are HR's and other CW's. I am the favored and constant target of GWF's and TR's especially. TR's who are 2000 (yes, TWO THOUSAND) {or more!} GS below me ROUTINELY ONE-SHOT me.
So my obvious reaction to your blatant BS statement is laughter and incredulity.
To some of the other people here... could you PLEASE send me a link or a message showing just HOW you are purportedly getting 70 K HP's on a CW? My current 15 K GS build has 25 K Hp's. That's it. It'd be nice to at least have an IDEA how to get say, 35k HP for my frequently killed wiz.
As for shield, excellent introductory explanation and interesting discussion. I actually learned a few things. But it's a power that I stopped using due to it's limited capacity. Excellent DR for ONE shot doesn't mean squat when your opponents take that into account. AND since a CW is so darn squishy and LACKS massive big damage like say, Lashing Blade for TR's, one shot protection is not NEARLY enough.
FINALLY. Someone says it. I have ONE name... ELMINSTER. Anyone go feel free to look into the various D&D books in print. Or maybe play some pen and paper Gaming. It's not a fighter, a ranger, a thief or an assassin that is the MOST POWERFUL and FEARED individual in the world.
It's a ..... Mage. In your face all of you jerkweeds who maligned CW's or have called them "supporting" characters.
"Nuff said.
How many player need to say to you Feytouched is too powerfull , it steal the enemys power (dps boost).
So how unstoppable work now ? your dmg boost = your temp hp boost.
So mobs usly hit super hard i dont know exactly whats they dmg boost stat but i think its huge so feytouched draw super boost for short time .
This is why unstoppable give 400k temp hp or GWF can deal 900k restoring dmg.
But the thing is CW can do 1.4 mill desintegration with this too.
Feytouched is too powerfull to hit live .
Sorry for bad english but i am sure you undestand what i want to say .
My lvl 60 anointed champion dps DC has 27% damage resistance on preview server in well of dragons WHILE WEARING HIGH PROPHET.
with rank 4 anointed armor (class feature).
Light of divinity (class feature) gives me a small 2k heal every 3 seconds. It's small but requires no work.
I can cast divine glow on my self (for healing) when my HP is low.
4 consecutive dodges.
It's not a tank but it's also not a glass cannon.
My lvl 60 CW in high vizier has only 12% damage resistance (not including shield) in well of dragons.
I have another name, Raistlin!
Edit: I see morenthar has just mentioned him slightly before me...
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
You are soo wrong ELMINSTER class is : Warrior/ rogue/wizard .
Also Controll wizard is the weakest sister of mage/wizard/sorcerer.
Theorical yes you can achive this but then you will have zero dmg to beat any one and , you forget w/o any regeneration stat.
Also its total pointless cuz TR will still one shot you cuz first stike lashing blade shoking have 4th rank now and you dont have the time to build up those DR's and Deflect chance .
GWF have still no chance aganst SS proc and Shoking /piercing dmg.
On live i have 80% capped DR and 50% deflect SS proc can deal to me around 10-15 k dmg /proc from eq graded CW.
Each match end up 2 tr with our side and 2 tr with enemy side .
So i switched to half-glass cannon build at least i have 1-2 sec chance to do high brust to the TR (and hope she/he die before i die) hou always hunt GWF cuz they know i am an easy pray.
PvE:
GWF starts, let's say, with 40% DR. Up to 70% with unstoppable or sprint. So we can say a GWF is consistently mitigating PvE damage that much. Fighting in melee range, takes hits 99% of the time. This also must be taken into account.
CW can have up to let's say 20-25% DR. Now we can add 50% on first hit= 70-75%. Considering CW is a ranged class AND controls the enemy most of the time during a fight, PLUS got IMMUNITY dodges, we can assume that a good CW only takes sporadic hits, being able to consistently regenerate his shield.
With shield on tab, a CW can consistently mitigate 2 big hits AND dodge with IMMUNITY and CONTROL from RANGE.
All in all, in PvE. considering all the defensive tools at disposal, a CW has better survivability.
PvP:
Big difference here.
GWF has let's say, in PvP setup, 46-50% normal DR. Add unstoppable and sprint, you hit the 80% cap with PIERCEABLE and DEBUFFABLE DR. The class got no dodges and fights in melee range with less control over the enemy.
CW has let's say up to 30-33% or more DR (i got that much on my old CW alt in low gear), and gets 80%-50%-25% UNPIERCEABLE and UNDEBUFFABLE DR, along with dodge IMMUNITY and more control over target.
Hands down, in PvP a CW has far, far more survivability, considering both classes in PvP build, right now get up to the same amount of HP.
Ranged+ immunity dodge+ absolute DR + more control beats, hands down, any DR a tank fighter can get right now.
The big error non-fighter classes do right now is to think "they got more armor, they are tankier".
Wrong.
It was true in the past. Right now, DPS amount and debuffs/ piercing damage are so high that absolute defenses like immunity dodges, being ranged and undebuffable/ unpierceable shields.
As a simple example, even the base 25% "absolute" DR from CW shield beats, hands down, 30% unstoppable DR which can be, and most of the time is, debuffed or pierced. 80% absolute DR on tab beats, hands down, the 80% "normal" DR burst on a sentinel tank.
Immunity on dodge allowing, for example, my DC to 100% avoid a ice knife or SE beats, hands down, the 30% DR on sprint. Simply beacause if i dodge a 20-30k IK or a 40k SE i take no damage. I can be debuffed, damage can be in any form, doesn't matter: i get out of it unscathed and CWs, DCs, TRs, all can dodge A LOT so the "uptime" of the shift gets a lot closer to sprint considering feats and faster stamina regeneration, while the effectiveness is on a whole different level. If i time my sprint on the same moves i still get MASSIVE damage. If i get debuffed or damage is piercing damage i get close to full damage or full damage (see SE one-shots on GWFs).
As i stated many times, old good DR is, and will be even more in module 6, almost useless.
You've set up a GWF fully orientated on tank in feats and passives. Now, where's the damage of such GWF compared to a CW with shield on tab or a TR? Far behind.
Negation is available to all classes. It's not an argument.
DR can be debuffed a lot on every source you mentioned GWF have access to. And can still be pierced.
So DR is, again, not an argument unless you make it working like CW shield.
Only valid point is deflection chance. But:
Halfling is available to all classes. Not an argument.
DEX belt means you sacrifice something else like HP or STR.
You counted belt 2 times (at the start, then counting underwear)
Silveries are, again, available to all classes.
Ubiquitous shield...lol. Give up 25% crit severity and 2% crit chance, which means again you give up offense a lot.
I see much theorycrafting what i'd say is:
How much more defelct/ DR GWFs get COMPARED TO now?
Warriors courage is 9% deflect and 15% DR.
Elemental set LOSES the set bonus so actually you get LESS deflection from there.
And 15% DR pierceable/ debuffable from countless scars, less effective considering damage is burst and burst is not delivered after 15 hits.
GWF will not get much more defensive stats and GWF DR will still be weak and pierced/ debuffed.
Considering DPS will be higher too (you know, other classes get DPS buffs too, and a lot), what makes you think GWFs wil ltank more except some flawed theorycrafting?
in the worst scenario cw shield offers 25% unmitigable dr + control resist.
this means theorically a dps loss of 25% however an effective gain in defense stats given by 25x400 = 10k points stat gained.
that 25% dps loss can be gained back by increasing every encounter damage by 8%, this means 400x8 = 3200 more power needed. Effective gain = 10k - 3.2k = 6.8k.
and then we have free heals, free armor pen, possibility to achieve 100% critical chance with little to no efforts, free damage for millions by storm spell and with icy veins another 40% damage buff with 100% uptime with no skill required at all.
back to shield: its clearly overperforming especially if compared to gwf and gf.
its fun how things get nerfed to unplayability when are must have for other classes while if its must have for cws everything "magically" becomes balanced.
In PvE a good CW can definitely stunlock non CC immune NPCs. There's really no need for a mere 25% extra DR when you can achieve that.
25% absolute DR in the worst case sucks? When you also are ranged, have CC and can immunity dodge? So we have CC (first defensive layer), dodge immunity (second defense layer) and a 50-25% or 80-50-25% absolute mitigation if caught.
Even with DoTs the minimum amount of DR is 25% and it's absolute, unpierceable and undebuffable.
In PvP that also means a fighter can effectively get through CC (first layer), depleting stamina, then must get through the CW immunity dodges (second layer) then, when finally catches up, must first at-will to deplete the shield (wasting time the CW uses to regenerate stamina and teleport more) then burst or much of his DPS are wasted.
If barkshield-like shield with lowest absolute DR at 25% is useless, what is 30% DR debuffable/ pierceable on sprint and our very own class mechanic unstoppable (after losing roughly 40-50% HP for full bar)?
I don't know about all classes, could some who does know please post what classes have a feat/feature/ability to achieve this?
Or it this just a CW shield thing?
Thanx
put a barkshield on and that 25% is more likely to be a stable 50%
CW shild (tab 80-50-25% not tab 50-25%) GF block (80%) and TR ITC(50%) DC A.Shild (30%)
All those can avoid Shoking and piercing dmg.