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Correcting some CW myths: Part 1 - Shield
abaddon523
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
In reading through the various feedback threads I'm getting the distinct impression that there are a lot of people who have a very poor understanding of how the mechanics of the Control Wizard class. People tend not to understand what spells do and how they work. Nonetheless, some still attempt to provide feedback based on their misconceptions rather than reality. I'm setting out to correct a few of the more egregious statements I've seen.
I'm an experienced CW who has done a boatload of testing on all CW abilities and feats. Furthermore, I'm not an apologetic hack when it comes to my class. I do not want to be overpowered and I've provided a large amount of feedback in threads pointing out things that are broken in favor of CW's that need to be fixed.
With that in mind let's correct one really dumb statement that's been floating around the boards lately. And that is a statement to the effect of "CW's are the best tanking class in the game because of Shield."
Here's how Shield works: when this spell is slotted and is cast it provides damage resistance.
If Shield is slotted in a normal encounter slot it provides 50% Damage Resistance to the first hit it takes. Then it provides 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will not "reset" until the CW is not hit for 6 seconds.
If Shield is slotted on tab it provides 80% DR to the first hit it takes, 50% to the second hit it takes, then 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will reset to the 50% DR after 6 seconds of not being hit. Then 80% after not being hit for 6 more seconds.
Analysis: Shield is great 1-shot protection, and not much more. If you're fighting a boss and make a mistake and get caught in a red area, shield will save you. But that's really the only situation it saves you from. If there are trash mobs while fighting a boss those trash mobs will bring your shield down with arrows or whatever other weak attacks they use. The useful part of the Shield is spent mitigating damage that didn't need to be mitigated, then the far less effective reduced shield is the only help you get against a boss attack.
As a means of "tanking" it is near useless. A CW with an extra 25% DR is still a worse tank than most any other class. Keep in mind that CW's have low Armor Class, CW armor has low defense/deflect, and CW's have no feats which increase durability. My CW has around 30% DR on live, but because of the re-worked stat curves only has about 10% DR on preview.
Clearly a GF with his shield up tanks damage far better than that. It is utterly moronic to claim otherwise. The same goes for a Paladin that has chosen the protector path.
A GWF has many ways to get higher DR: higher Armor Class, feats that increase durability, feats and abilities that grant lots of temporary HP, running, and Unstoppable. While an argument can be made (correctly, I think) that a GWF doesn't have enough survivability for Mod 6 content given that they have to be in close range all the time, the reality is that a GWF is still significantly more capable of tanking than a CW with shield. The only time a CW will out-last a GWF in taking damage is if each is hit by one big blow right at the start of a fight. Then the 80% DR of Shield will outperform the DR a GWF has. But in every other possible scenario a GWF will have better tanking capability. During a recent run on the preview server I saw a GWF build up over 400,000 Temporary HP during a fight. I would gladly trade my little purple bubble for the ability to do that.
A DC is better able to tank damage as well. All they have to do is cast an empowered Astral Shield at their feet and they get high DR that doesn't evaporate after 1 or 2 hits, it applies to more than just themselves, and heals them. I've yet to see a thread about how Astral Shield should be removed from the game because it allows DC's to tank better than a GF. And that's because such a thread would be dumb and everyone knows it. But we do see threads stating similar nonsense about CW's Shield even though that's just as dumb. The only difference is people don't know it.
Tr's have Stealth. That provides such a preposterous increase in survivability that it is game-breaking when used properly. In a "who is going to survive longer" in a boss room with overpowered adds there's no competition between a shielded CW and a perma-stealth TR. Even non-perma TR's would readily admit that they have an easier time staying alive than CW's because anytime they get in trouble they can just duck into stealth and get out of trouble. Even moreso when then things like Shadow Strike and Lurker's Assault are slotted. Sure those hurt DPS, but they also make a TR ridiculously hard to kill. Far more than a purple-globed CW.
Arguments can even be made about HR's with crazy-high deflect and Temptation SW's with their enormous healing potential have very good survival tools as well.
Anyway, the point is anyone claiming that Shield is overpowered because it makes CW's too tanky just doesn't understand how limited its usefulness is beyond one-shot insurance. They do not know what they are talking about.
I've yet to be in a competent group where someone says "I have an idea...let's have our CW put on Shield and tank away."
Kite? Sure. CW's can run around and dodge to stay alive. Just like DC's and TR's, and HR's can. What they cannot do is stand toe-to-toe with an enemy absorbing damage like a tank can. They can take one good hit (or one tiny hit) before folding like a card table against repeated blows.
I'm an experienced CW who has done a boatload of testing on all CW abilities and feats. Furthermore, I'm not an apologetic hack when it comes to my class. I do not want to be overpowered and I've provided a large amount of feedback in threads pointing out things that are broken in favor of CW's that need to be fixed.
With that in mind let's correct one really dumb statement that's been floating around the boards lately. And that is a statement to the effect of "CW's are the best tanking class in the game because of Shield."
Here's how Shield works: when this spell is slotted and is cast it provides damage resistance.
If Shield is slotted in a normal encounter slot it provides 50% Damage Resistance to the first hit it takes. Then it provides 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will not "reset" until the CW is not hit for 6 seconds.
If Shield is slotted on tab it provides 80% DR to the first hit it takes, 50% to the second hit it takes, then 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will reset to the 50% DR after 6 seconds of not being hit. Then 80% after not being hit for 6 more seconds.
Analysis: Shield is great 1-shot protection, and not much more. If you're fighting a boss and make a mistake and get caught in a red area, shield will save you. But that's really the only situation it saves you from. If there are trash mobs while fighting a boss those trash mobs will bring your shield down with arrows or whatever other weak attacks they use. The useful part of the Shield is spent mitigating damage that didn't need to be mitigated, then the far less effective reduced shield is the only help you get against a boss attack.
As a means of "tanking" it is near useless. A CW with an extra 25% DR is still a worse tank than most any other class. Keep in mind that CW's have low Armor Class, CW armor has low defense/deflect, and CW's have no feats which increase durability. My CW has around 30% DR on live, but because of the re-worked stat curves only has about 10% DR on preview.
Clearly a GF with his shield up tanks damage far better than that. It is utterly moronic to claim otherwise. The same goes for a Paladin that has chosen the protector path.
A GWF has many ways to get higher DR: higher Armor Class, feats that increase durability, feats and abilities that grant lots of temporary HP, running, and Unstoppable. While an argument can be made (correctly, I think) that a GWF doesn't have enough survivability for Mod 6 content given that they have to be in close range all the time, the reality is that a GWF is still significantly more capable of tanking than a CW with shield. The only time a CW will out-last a GWF in taking damage is if each is hit by one big blow right at the start of a fight. Then the 80% DR of Shield will outperform the DR a GWF has. But in every other possible scenario a GWF will have better tanking capability. During a recent run on the preview server I saw a GWF build up over 400,000 Temporary HP during a fight. I would gladly trade my little purple bubble for the ability to do that.
A DC is better able to tank damage as well. All they have to do is cast an empowered Astral Shield at their feet and they get high DR that doesn't evaporate after 1 or 2 hits, it applies to more than just themselves, and heals them. I've yet to see a thread about how Astral Shield should be removed from the game because it allows DC's to tank better than a GF. And that's because such a thread would be dumb and everyone knows it. But we do see threads stating similar nonsense about CW's Shield even though that's just as dumb. The only difference is people don't know it.
Tr's have Stealth. That provides such a preposterous increase in survivability that it is game-breaking when used properly. In a "who is going to survive longer" in a boss room with overpowered adds there's no competition between a shielded CW and a perma-stealth TR. Even non-perma TR's would readily admit that they have an easier time staying alive than CW's because anytime they get in trouble they can just duck into stealth and get out of trouble. Even moreso when then things like Shadow Strike and Lurker's Assault are slotted. Sure those hurt DPS, but they also make a TR ridiculously hard to kill. Far more than a purple-globed CW.
Arguments can even be made about HR's with crazy-high deflect and Temptation SW's with their enormous healing potential have very good survival tools as well.
Anyway, the point is anyone claiming that Shield is overpowered because it makes CW's too tanky just doesn't understand how limited its usefulness is beyond one-shot insurance. They do not know what they are talking about.
I've yet to be in a competent group where someone says "I have an idea...let's have our CW put on Shield and tank away."
Kite? Sure. CW's can run around and dodge to stay alive. Just like DC's and TR's, and HR's can. What they cannot do is stand toe-to-toe with an enemy absorbing damage like a tank can. They can take one good hit (or one tiny hit) before folding like a card table against repeated blows.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by abaddon523 on
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If people would understand that a single tiny hit removes the DR on CWs it would do much for them in PvP. Instead of using their best encounters from the start on the shield.
WINNER WINNER!!!
Here is a cool post: Correcting the OP - Part 1
You see, when a GWF has 40% versus a CW who has 20% DR. You may be thinking the GWF is tankier. Well yes and no.
When you look at ARP, most classes are well above 25% ARP. Most classes even have 30%+ ARP - or just pure piercing damage.
Ontop of that, tenacity also helps the LEAST tanky classes the most.
So lets look at two scenarios: The attack of each deals 10,000 damage with 25% ARP.
Target 1: GWF, 40% DR, 25% Tenacity.
10,000 FIRST attacks and due to ARP, only 15% DR remains. Thus damage turns to 8,500. THEN Tenacity kicks in for another 25% OF that number = (8,500 * .75) = 6,375 FINAL damage to the GWF. So his "Effective DR" is really only about 36-37%
Target 2: CW, 20% DR, 25% tenacity and Shield FULLY broken (doesnt even need to be on Tab).
10,000 + 25% ARP which mitigates ALL his DR = 10,000 full damage THEN diminished by tenacity = 7,500 damage (10,000 * .75) But THEN gets another 25% mitigation from shield for (7,500 *.75) = 5,625 FINAL damage to the CW.So his "Effective DR" is really about 43-44%
So which is better? The CW.
Now NOONE is claiming the CW is better than a GF holding block - but the GF CANT attack while blocking, the GF also cant "dodge" and get 100% DR for those frames.
Heck even look at a GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE (Non-Sent). Most GWFs are <40% DR but even boost that another 15% (same attacker).
55% DR, 25% Tenacity versus 10,000 + 25% ARP.
Net: 7,000 after first DR, then * .75 for Tenacity = 5,250 FINAL DAMAGE. Given non-sents rarely have 40% base DR, CW shield is ROUGHLY the same as a non-sent GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE - this is FULLY broken CW shield NOT on tab.
Im not sure the solution because without shield CWs are much more squishy, but I do think it could use a change in some respects. Maybe when the shield is broken for longer than <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> seconds it "fully" breaks and would go on CD.
So you can take a few initial hits at high DR, then once its broken, it can either regen back up in what, 6 seconds? Or if it doesnt regen back up after 6 seconds it "breaks" and goes on CD - to be recast.
Either that or maybe the broken version drops to 15% (from 25%). IDK, all I know is CWs combined with dodges and things like: Severe Reaction?! AND this shield?! Seems a little silly to me. Also CWs dont even have ot stand still they just dot you up, watch SS proc a million times on your face and you die.
here let me help you. I'll not challenge your final damage numbers but just factor in HP.
in mod6 tanks will have 100k+ hp. cw will have about 70k if lucky.
6375 damage w/ 100,000 hp = that hit is 6.4% of total life. the tank can take 16 of these hits before dying.
5625 damage w/ 70,000 hp = 8.0% of total life. the cw can only take 13 of these hits before kissing the dirt.
math.
I was just going to make a similar post but looks like you have it covered. Main takeways is that they keep that DR while ATTACKING and from range. This is a huge advantage over all melee dps. adding in control and AoE potential, you can see where people are getting uptight about balance
On the shield subject, the decreasing absorption is good for the lack of survivability.
But I fear that in mod6, Shield will be use for the base DR. And I think it's problematic.
Shield is for burst absorption and control with the bump. If it's used by most of CW in mod6 just for the +25% DR, then it's a balance problem on CW survivability, not with the spell.
In short, Shield only show there's a problem; it's not the problem in itself.
Only GF/Paladin gets a SLIGHT boost to their Con HP - which ISNT total HP btw.
As a GWF/HR/TR/CW/DC - ALL can get the SAME HP.
Paladins and GFs - slightly more, but if they fully stack Con. So this is a moot point.
Also your basically saying, the GWF HAS to use radiants in defensive slots to get his HP so SO THAT, the damage he takes is less of his total HP pool while the CW is free to use Darks or Silvery. It just makes no sense.
/thread
But when I see logs about what mobs in dungeons are capable of, I'd say better increase warrior survivability than decrease wizard's survivability.
On PTR CWs and GWFs have the SAME HP - about 110k. Fully defensive radiant stacked.
On LIVE, FULL HP stack my GWF has 40k, I see CWs all the time with JUST as much.
/thread
Yeah when Shield came out, it was initally alot more until I pointed out the flaw in the math to Crush and he nerfed it to 25% (was I think 40%?) Imagine THAT LOL!
Shield is a weird ability and I always hesitate to nerf it because I know what CW was like pre-shield. It was VERY squishy, but now with all the changes CWs have alot of tools in their kit. Playing MY 60 CW, I actually MORE tanky and more versatile than playing my GF or GWF. I think a large part is the shift/dodges that the class has in combination with the shield. Shield allows the CW to facetank maybe just a little too good?
Maybe what would be better is shield: upon taking damage you mitigate 60% for 2 seconds and THEN once broken it drops to 10%. This protects more upfront but less as a base. Then would reset after 5 seconds of not taking damage.
This might be more inline with the goal of burst mitigation without heavy reliance on the base DR.
Mastery could still be 80% then maybe 15%. Giving a buff to both.
Comparing the survivability of a CW who is doing everything possible to increase their durability, including sacrificing their tab function, with GF's and GWF's standing around as they are doing nothing you're not comparing apples to apples.
Every class gets three encounters and a tab function.
A GWF gets unstoppable. That increases damage resistance. In addition, the GWF is granted temporary HP (funny I didn't see that factored in anywhere). In addition, GWF's become control immune. In addition, the GWF's attack rate is significantly increased. In addition, Unstoppable triggers many feats like Destroyer's purpose which massively increase outgoing damage.
And that's the problem here. Do you think any GWF would trade their tab function, and everything that goes with it to the CW for their tabbed Shield? The answer is "oh, heck no." The DR, temporary HP, the control immunity, the increased attack rate, and the damage boost all combine to give GWF's waaaaaaaay more survivability and waaaaaay more benefit from their tab function then just the shield a CW has spent their tab function on.
The same is true of TR's. Would any TR in their right mind trade their stealth capability (and all that goes with it like guaranteed crits coming out of stealth) for the purple shield bubble a of a CW? Again...oh, heck no. Their tab function is far, far superior to a CW's.
Also,
Oh, yes. People are.
People are indeed stating that CW's are better at taking damage than tanks. But instead of anyone repudiating their nonsense. All I've seen is people hopping on board the bandwagon.
If you give me a "Mastery Slot" that I can put any power into that buffs it up the yinyang and I also get a feat that insta-fills my stamina wheenver hit with melee and I also get tons of immunity dodges. I would GLADLY give up Unstoppable.
To get Unstoppable you have to lose north of 20% of your HP, to THEN get 4 seconds of CC immunity and 15% DR. Id rather have a pure 25% DR unmitigatable 100% uptime and have my immunity frames on my "dodge" and ALSO get a beefed up encounter power - Naturally I would take IBS. Or better yet, maybe they can re-work steel blitz and weapon master to work like Storm Spell and EOTS - then see who is laughing....
BTW that "UBER TEMP HP" you refer to... You do know if PVP its cut in half and is 8% of your HP (netted down to 4%).... It also currently goes away after unstoppable ends. Meaning even if you do nothing during unstoppable but blink 2x, all my "buffs" wear off, and so does that temp HP.
What happened to your shield? Oh its still there...
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Regards
See, that's the thing. I think all of us would agree that GWFs are not in a good spot right now, and neither are GFs when it comes to their CON bonus for HP which, given all of the HP that the new gear has, is not terribly valuable. But these defenders, instead of asking for buffs to their class, they want to tear down CWs. It's just jealousy, really.
Agreed 100%. As a player who plays both TR and CW, I would gladly trade my mastery for stealth (improved invisibility you know), my chilling cloud with gloaming cloud (no freeze, restores stealth) and my shield with shadow strike
+10000 totaly agree there are some issues with other classes not being where they need to be but this is not about the cw it should be about makeing other classes competitive
also with pvp and pve being talked about as if they are 1 thing they are not there needs to be more separation between pvp and pve whats good for pvp in not good for pve and vise versa
i totsaly agree that gwf and gf need mopre survivbilty but that should come from there ac they should get more defence from it tr hr should get there suvivbilty from deflects and stealth cws shoul;d get theres from spels like shield this is a true dnd way to do it