test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Correcting some CW myths: Part 1 - Shield

13468911

Comments

  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    tyrtallow wrote: »
    .... Each dodge provides around 1-2 seconds of invulnerability , so that's potentially 4-8 seconds of invulnerability total along with whatever else these classes have to mitigate damage (whether through control, buffs or debuffs).
    Note that Neverwinter being the action game it is, 4-8 seconds is a LOT.
    Note that, in the end, all this boils down to invulnerability.

    The first/second hit of the Shield simply gives the CW invulnerability. Once the CW notices the hit and starts employing his other invulns/dodges, it's only a matter of time before he decides to drop a control power on you. Or someone else kills you, because you were too busy trying to focus on the dodging CW.

    TBH I see no problem with the CW's Shield itself, the problem is when you combine it with all the other survivability goodies that CWs get. This is especially problematic in PvP where burst damage is king atm and dodging a potential burst can mean all the difference.

    ^^^^
    +1
    Totally agree.couldn't say it better.CW Shield is broken as it is.But when you combine it with Immunity frames and the uber CC and DPS ,you have a serious problem
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    CW shild (tab 80-50-25% not tab 50-25%) GF block (80%) and TR ITC(50%) DC A.Shild (30%)

    All those can avoid Shoking and piercing dmg.

    itc cannot
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    rayrdan wrote: »
    itc cannot

    Yes it can tested it it have own dr layer cannot be debuffed.
    TR with (steath) ITC on cannot be oneshoted by SE or pierc-ed.
    I have 19k MI Exe.

    And i also forgot HR (Boar hide 10%) and prot.paladins Divine Protector(80%)
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ^^^^
    +1
    Totally agree.couldn't say it better.CW Shield is broken as it is.But when you combine it with Immunity frames and the uber CC and DPS ,you have a serious problem

    Really? CW CC is next to useless in PvP unless you're fighting another CW. Every single class with the exception of CW has a way to get "on demand" CC immunity.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • mrsmcsmithymrsmcsmithy Member Posts: 43
    edited March 2015
    20% control resistance??Wake up friend.Lol. Not against CWs!!!! lol

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?582751-Cryptic-OFFICIAL-Tenacity-Feedback-Thread/page37

    "Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
    Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
    We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target."

    CWs ignore teancity CC since mod2.


    You throw that post by gentlemancrush around constantly but without putting it in it's correct context , at the time that change was made control wizards could not control anything , even BiS GWF at the time were pointing that out as seen in a post a couple of posts above the one you quoted as seen here -
    esteena wrote: »
    Feed back:

    CW can't control anything anymore.

    I'm a BiS GWF and there is nothing stopping me now from killing a CW, their freeze duration is less than a 1 sec and there is no problem resisting their CC without even using my unstoppable.

    They can't even chain their combos anymore because every time they try to "entangle" i just snap out of it very quickly and charge into them, not to mention how repel is now completely useless. I think tenacity is good tanking wise, but the CC resist part was way too far.

    I suggest, as stox said, adding a "Control resistance ignored" stat on the CW gear.

    if you are going to throw around fake accusations then at least make sure it is in context.
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Aargh ...
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Really? CW CC is next to useless in PvP unless you're fighting another CW. Every single class with the exception of CW has a way to get "on demand" CC immunity.

    Oh iffy can you name them for Hr, Sw, Gf and Dc heck through in Pal there also plz and remember immunity means CAN NOT BE CCed..

    And if CC is NEXT TO USELESS you wont mind of it starts to respect Tenacity as its well useless any way....
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    "You throw that post by gentlemancrush around constantly but without putting it in it's correct context , at the time that change was made control wizards could not control anything , even BiS GWF at the time were pointing that out as seen in a post a couple of posts above the one you quoted as seen here -"

    At that time CWs could control anything.half of the CW posters that posted on that thread are now BANNED cause they were participating in the resonator party ,if you get my point.That tells something about their ethics.And one name that you mentioned is not a GWF but a disguised CW.I checked his posts most of time he was posting in the library.

    To the point now.What is the point of your argument?They couldn't control? What about now?can they control?

    really???
    You defend this abomination?One class to ignore tenacity?While others to respect it?really?

    Last time i checked thera are 2 Gfs in the first 10 pages of the leaderboard.2 out of 240 toons.Maybe i will start to claim Gfs cannot dominate anything and maybe Gfs should ignore 66% of tenacity.Why not? :)

    This action by the devs at that time was bad at principle.You cannot make a class ignore a fundamental basic of the game cause they simply cry and whine a lot.

    You think it is fair?
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If i remember Shild was nerfed and buffed after first post of crush.

    I think its now :
    Shild have base 40% and after break 15 % each rank give him 5% more so total rank 4 it will be 55 % and 30% MOD 6

    TaB :
    Base 70% 40% 15% earch rank give him 5% more total 85% -55% and 30% .

    It also give you 20% controll resist at rank 4 .
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If i remember Shild was nerfed and buffed after first post of crush.

    I think its now :
    Shild have base 40% and after break 15 % each rank give him 5% more so total rank 4 it will be 55 % and 30% MOD 6

    TaB :
    Base 70% 40% 15% earch rank give him 5% more total 85% -55% and 30% .

    It also give you 20% control resist at rank 4 .

    I think you're right. The above values are for Tier IV I can see. I couldn't find any more recent sources to explain it. The buffs and nerfs to shield happened before Mod 4 went live.

    I do think the damage resistance to shield happens after base DR is taken into account, and is not simply additive. There is a post from gentlemancrush explaining this (and pasted below), but this was during the Mod 4 changes.
    I should clarify how shield works. It is NOT additive DR. It is not pushing wizards to the DR cap. It operates to absorb damage after their damage resistance has activated on it. So in practical terms it causes their DR to act as if it were X% greater than it is.

    So for example

    A wizard has 25% DR and his R1 shield is stable. YOu hit him with 1000 damage. The damage calculation would go as follows

    1000 * .75 * .5 = 375
    NOT 1000 * .25 = 250

    This is a really important differentiation because their DR is still very important to how they resist damage because the shield acts after it.

    Not to mention they do lose a full encounter slot to keep this multiplicative absorb on (or they activate the push and lose it, either way).

    So this is definitely not putting wizards anywhere near Fighters OR the Resist cap on average. While it is possible a wizard is stacking defense and could get up that high, it is fairly unlikely to remain all that long

    For reference purposes with R3 Stable and Unstable (Mastery and non Mastery) a wizard would need the following BASE DR values to reach the 80% resistance cap.

    Stable: 53.36%
    Unstable: 59.79%

    Mastery Stable: 44.44%
    Mastery Unstable: 57.12%
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • edited March 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • edited March 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • edited March 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • edited March 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    vordayn wrote: »
    I think you're right. The above values are for Tier IV I can see. I couldn't find any more recent sources to explain it. The buffs and nerfs to shield happened before Mod 4 went live.

    I do think the damage resistance to shield happens after base DR is taken into account, and is not simply additive. There is a post from gentlemancrush explaining this (and pasted below), but this was during the Mod 4 changes.

    Thanks for posting the actual links to GC's explanation.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    macjae wrote: »
    Well, I see that rather than addressing the argument as a whole, you're just resorting to rather petty nitpicking. So I take it you don't actually have any good counterarguments. I already noted that GWFs could make a few changes and be slightly less tanky for more damage, depending on how they want to set things up. You keep focusing on the word "piercing" but that really just means "TR." It's also nice to see the double standard of focusing on how much the GWF would give up to be tanky, but not on what the CW is giving up for Shield.

    And the point, if you cared to read the post as a whole before responding to individually meaningless parts so you'd understand what you were responding to is that there's going to be extremely strong synergy between the GWF's ability to stack defensive stats that get stronger as he takes damage and the way determination gain is going to work. Without being able to test that, all this whining is pointless.

    The secondary point is that further boosting GWF tankiness at this point without even seeing the results of what they've done so far is ludicrous.

    The third point is that GWF tankiness works in the opposite direction of Shield: GWFs are vulnerable to quick, early bursts, but will get tankier the more damage they take. CWs can stop the first big attack, but get more susceptible to damage the more they take. Which produces different profiles for how to handle them in fights. Obviously, a lot of GWFs simply don't understand the mechanics involved and are just crying for nerfs to others on top of the unnecessary boosts they already received so they can get some easy victims again.

    LOL when did you see all GWF whining here?

    I just gived some explanation and even defended you stupid shild cuz 5 more class have this "dr feature" too less or more effective version ..
    Pls dont place all GWFs in 1 hat.

    My option about this .
    I think if 6 class from 8 have this why cant the remaining 2(SW/GWF) have this"dr feature " ..
    Dos it hurt you or hurt CWs ??
    I think not .
    Will this give imbalance to pve or pvp ?
    I think no.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Thanks for posting the actual links to GC's explanation.

    As provocative i can get ,but totally honest at the same time i take Abbadon's statement over the two.

    "If Shield is slotted in a normal encounter slot it provides 50% Damage Resistance to the first hit it takes. Then it provides 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will not "reset" until the CW is not hit for 6 seconds.

    If Shield is slotted on tab it provides 80% DR to the first hit it takes, 50% to the second hit it takes, then 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will reset to the 50% DR after 6 seconds of not being hit. Then 80% after not being hit for 6 more seconds."
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    As provocative i can get ,but totally honest at the same time i take Abbadon's statement over the two.

    "If Shield is slotted in a normal encounter slot it provides 50% Damage Resistance to the first hit it takes. Then it provides 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will not "reset" until the CW is not hit for 6 seconds.

    If Shield is slotted on tab it provides 80% DR to the first hit it takes, 50% to the second hit it takes, then 25% to all subsequent hits. The shield will reset to the 50% DR after 6 seconds of not being hit. Then 80% after not being hit for 6 more seconds."

    There must be differences in the rank of the shield. Each rank adds +5% resistance. The above are for Rank III shield. Rank I shield should be lower, and Rank IV higher. The tooltip is near useless in its description.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    macjae wrote: »
    Well, I see that rather than addressing the argument as a whole, you're just resorting to rather petty nitpicking. So I take it you don't actually have any good counterarguments. I already noted that GWFs could make a few changes and be slightly less tanky for more damage, depending on how they want to set things up. You keep focusing on the word "piercing" but that really just means "TR." It's also nice to see the double standard of focusing on how much the GWF would give up to be tanky, but not on what the CW is giving up for Shield.

    And the point, if you cared to read the post as a whole before responding to individually meaningless parts so you'd understand what you were responding to is that there's going to be extremely strong synergy between the GWF's ability to stack defensive stats that get stronger as he takes damage and the way determination gain is going to work. Without being able to test that, all this whining is pointless.

    The secondary point is that further boosting GWF tankiness at this point without even seeing the results of what they've done so far is ludicrous.

    The third point is that GWF tankiness works in the opposite direction of Shield: GWFs are vulnerable to quick, early bursts, but will get tankier the more damage they take. CWs can stop the first big attack, but get more susceptible to damage the more they take. Which produces different profiles for how to handle them in fights. Obviously, a lot of GWFs simply don't understand the mechanics involved and are just crying for nerfs to others on top of the unnecessary boosts they already received so they can get some easy victims again.

    Lol 'unnecessary buffs'. Coming from a CW. Now that's funny.

    You also forget how shield is not debuffable while a couple of debuffs make that 'gwfs will get tankier the more damage they take', crumble.
    Nobody also asked for nerfs, i pointed out how shield is superior to sprint and unstoppable and gwf armor.

    Also, pvp is about burst damage, so being weak vs. burst and debuffable, is obviously not that good as you say.
    And all classes can burst a lot, expecially CW and TR...your arguments are flawed.

    A defensive system built on stacks and weak vs big bursts, in module 6 is weak in both pvp and pve.
    As much as a offensive system working on stacks and slow to build up, is weak in both pvp and in end-game pve where CW/HR/TR burn enemies down fast.

    Saying gwf needs less tankyness and more damage is so out of reality it looks like it's you who do not know how gwf works right now.
    But i guess it would be fun for a CW to burn down an even squishier gwf before they even get in melee range.
  • edited March 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • edited March 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • edited March 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    macjae wrote: »
    that there's going to be extremely strong synergy between the GWF's ability to stack defensive stats that get stronger as he takes damage and the way determination gain is going to work. Without being able to test that, all this whining is pointless.

    The secondary point is that further boosting GWF tankiness at this point without even seeing the results of what they've done so far is ludicrous.

    The third point is that GWF tankiness works in the opposite direction of Shield: GWFs are vulnerable to quick, early bursts, but will get tankier the more damage they take. CWs can stop the first big attack, but get more susceptible to damage the more they take. Which produces different profiles for how to handle them in fights. Obviously, a lot of GWFs simply don't understand the mechanics involved and are just crying for nerfs to others on top of the unnecessary boosts they already received so they can get some easy victims again.

    1) We dont know exactly how this will work yet. Yes we can stack defensive stacks that will mean we lose LESS HP for determination gain, what we dont know is how this is calculated yet. Is it going to be based on % of HP but just PRE-DR numbers? Or is this going to be a fixed damage amount. We dont know. If fixed damage, then yes we can stack more things like HP over Defense which will give us a better return, if its % of HP, itll be more about stacking defense/DR. We just dont know. ALSO - dont forget that they could always drastically INCREASE the damage taken to be on par with how GWF feels today, the only difference will be Sprint wont work against us but for us - so overall this coul be a BIG buff, a mediocre buff, or no buff in reality. We just dont know.

    2) As you said, we cant test, we dont know HOWEVER what I can tell you is GWFs DR should be on its own layer and at 30% FIXED (not variable based on determination) LIKE GF block, LIKE CW Shield. This provides a more reliable form of DR that would HELP with things like SE. This wouldnt really affect damage from other classes just the TR.

    3) GWFs vs CW shield this is not a correct analogy. GWFs dont become more tanky the more damage they take. They gain a DR boost for a few seconds and laughable temp HP (that is getting a slight buff for PVP but not much in testing) and then its all gone. CWs get to take massive hits up front and even when BROKEN retain massive DR benefits from Shield. I have already done the math on Page 1 to show this. CW shield is superior even when broken. I think #2 point here would help assist that. Then GWFs would be tankier inside unstoppable and squishier outside unstoppable than a CW. But PVP IS all about burst.

    A CW can eat a SE right out of the gate in PVP with hardly a scratch due to Shield. A GWF - even if somehow he was unstoppable AND sprinting at FULL HP without ever getting hit gets 1 shot from SE. Or things like Lashing Blade along with SoD procs. CW shield drastically helps against this while GWFs DR is "reactive" and thus means nothing. Having Unstoppable on its own layer and at 30% would drastically help with this.

    Also allowing GWFs to use theri "sprint" mechanic standing still - almost like a "parry" giving DR+CC immunity would also give more utility without really changing the class alot.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    macjae wrote: »
    This is laughably, deliciously ironic. You're making up a statement I've never made while accusing me of being out of touch with reality. Now, go find the exact quote where I said that GWFs should be less tanky than they are right now (as opposed to concern that they may become too tanky with upcoming changes).

    I think he mis-read what this part was here below.
    macjae wrote: »
    I already noted that GWFs could make a few changes and be slightly less tanky for more damage

    In Macjae's defense he was talking about BUILD options not necessarily "this is how to fix GWF"
  • kaedennnkaedennn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 361 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ayroux wrote: »
    WINNER WINNER!!!

    Here is a cool post: Correcting the OP - Part 1

    You see, when a GWF has 40% versus a CW who has 20% DR. You may be thinking the GWF is tankier. Well yes and no.

    When you look at ARP, most classes are well above 25% ARP. Most classes even have 30%+ ARP - or just pure piercing damage.

    Ontop of that, tenacity also helps the LEAST tanky classes the most.


    So lets look at two scenarios: The attack of each deals 10,000 damage with 25% ARP.


    Target 1: GWF, 40% DR, 25% Tenacity.

    10,000 FIRST attacks and due to ARP, only 15% DR remains. Thus damage turns to 8,500. THEN Tenacity kicks in for another 25% OF that number = (8,500 * .75) = 6,375 FINAL damage to the GWF. So his "Effective DR" is really only about 36-37%

    Target 2: CW, 20% DR, 25% tenacity and Shield FULLY broken (doesnt even need to be on Tab).

    10,000 + 25% ARP which mitigates ALL his DR = 10,000 full damage THEN diminished by tenacity = 7,500 damage (10,000 * .75) But THEN gets another 25% mitigation from shield for (7,500 *.75) = 5,625 FINAL damage to the CW.So his "Effective DR" is really about 43-44%

    So which is better? The CW.

    Now NOONE is claiming the CW is better than a GF holding block - but the GF CANT attack while blocking, the GF also cant "dodge" and get 100% DR for those frames.

    Heck even look at a GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE (Non-Sent). Most GWFs are <40% DR but even boost that another 15% (same attacker).

    55% DR, 25% Tenacity versus 10,000 + 25% ARP.

    Net: 7,000 after first DR, then * .75 for Tenacity = 5,250 FINAL DAMAGE. Given non-sents rarely have 40% base DR, CW shield is ROUGHLY the same as a non-sent GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE - this is FULLY broken CW shield NOT on tab.

    and add above all that , 15% more control resist when shiel on TAB xD
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It seems that we're all in agreement. Every class hates shield. If I can't run in mod 6 without slotting shield, I'll main my DC.
  • learch123learch123 Member Posts: 514 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2015
    if we dont have shield on mod 6 there will almost 0 cws
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    learch123 wrote: »
    if we dont have shield on mod 6 there will almost 0 cws

    i dont see any kind of shield and or cc immune in hr and im quite sure there will still be someone
  • katamaster81899katamaster81899 Member Posts: 1,157 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    rayrdan wrote: »
    i dont see any kind of shield and or cc immune in hr and im quite sure there will still be someone

    Ok, so now we're using HRs as a basis to judge CWs on, because that's a valid comparison.

    Seriously, why on earth hasn't this thread been locked up yet. This ragefest/rantfest/nerfest/whinfest makes me sick because it shows how little the players care about the game, and moreso about their own personal agenda.

    It just pisses me off seeing all the crying, I've seen maybe 3 valid suggestions for change in this whole thread, and the rest is all complaining.
    dulopa4e1d9.png
    || Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
    Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
    Erza Moonstalker | Lara Moonstalker | Julie Marvell | Erza Moonhunter | Annie Hellangel | Jenn Moonstalker
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Ok, so now we're using HRs as a basis to judge CWs on, because that's a valid comparison.

    Seriously, why on earth hasn't this thread been locked up yet. This ragefest/rantfest/nerfest/whinfest makes me sick because it shows how little the players care about the game, and moreso about their own personal agenda.

    It just pisses me off seeing all the crying, I've seen maybe 3 valid suggestions for change in this whole thread, and the rest is all complaining.

    I wonder if it would be viable to look at making shield work LIKE negation but almost in reverse... Like it starts with X stacks (currently its like 2 or 3 I think - I forget the exact mechanic I only remember min vs max) Each time you are hit it lowers the amount of total DR.

    So it could start with 5 stacks of 10% DR each with a BASE DR of 10%. This puts it back at 60% full maxed but it REDUCES the "minimum" to 10% DR (from 25%)

    Slotting on Tab would still give CC resist but ALSO could increase the number of stacks to 6 (meaning 70% max).

    This may end up just being even more OP than before, but it MIGHT be a possible solution. That way the CW can sustain more burst upfront but are much less tanky in longer durations.

    With this, rather than a full refill after 6 seconds, I would have it grant back 1 charge after ~5 seconds of not taking damage.


    This way its hard to get it full charged up, but when it does it helps alot with potential burst. but when broken the CW will really feel the lack of DR and looking for ways to escape or not take damage.

    Overall both a nerf and a buff at the same time.
Sign In or Register to comment.