sorry but when one class can do what other classes can but better and be all in one there is issue with that one class not others.
is it me or you guys are completly blind not seeing this.
so what you propose is no one survie 3 hits in mod 6
what i suggest is that gf gwf get a big bost in defence from ac ie there steel armor
casters get theres from there spels cw dc sw
and tr hr get theres from there agility ie deflect
all of these need to be made viable in mod 6
sorry but when one class can do what other classes can but better and be all in one there is issue with that one class not others.
is it me or you guys are completly blind not seeing this.
But CWs CAN'T do what other classes can do "but better" over a sustained period of time.
CW has a shield that can mitigate one huge burst of damage, and can do it better than a GF or GWF. That is right. But it is a one-time deal. Then the effectiveness of the shield goes way down. The GF's Block and the GWF's Unstoppable class mechanics, however, remain unchanged.
CW heal party
buff party
deal highest dmg
have better tankines than said defenders
best CC but thats what class supposed to do
ranged class
now please stop defending whats not right ur class should have primary focus on CC and then DPS not have ability of every class in one.
and dont you have 25% unmitigated DR 100% uptime?so where does it go away?
cws do not heal
cw must chose
1 buff
2 control
3 dps
4 survivabilty
if you want dps then you give up shield for surviabilty
if yo want to buff party then you give up dps
Ok this is starting to sprial out of control now. I think the OP sees that maybe he didnt quite understand how his shield in comparison with some other classes, really DOES make him tankier.
That said, I do think the BEST solution here given ALL the data we currently have about PVP/PVE/Mod6 etc is to significantly BUFF AC.
What will this do?
Well it will make the tank classes much tankier and the squishy classes seem more squishy. Given the nature of PVE damage as is, we all now DR is something we really need buffed and the BEST way to do this is to buff AC.
Now there are TWO ways this can be accomplished that BOTH will benefit tanky classes more than non-tanky ones.
Option 1) Give a FLAT bonus to AC of 3 AC = 2% DR. Classes like CW natually have less AC and will benefit much less than classes which are much more tanky and benefit from AC more.
Option 2) Make Defense STAT boost AC effectiveness. This offers more build variety/unique-ness I think in that Defense would not only give DR but boost AC effectiveness (I would say at a 100:1% ratio).
What this means is if you stack 8,000 defense. Your DR would be only 20%, but you would get an 80% INCREASE in benefits of AC (nearly DOUBLING) your AC.
Thus Defense and AC work best when stacked together.
Both of these would accomplish making tanky classes better than non-tank classes DR-wise and this would also alleviate some PVE concerns.
CW heal party
buff party
best dmg
have better tankines than said defenders
best CC but thats what class supposed to do
ranged class
now please stop defending whats not right ur class should have primary focus on CC and then DPS not have ability of every class in one.
and dont you have 25% unmitigated DR 100% uptime?so where does it go away?
CWs heal the party, but not as well as DC's.
CWs buff the party, but not as well as DC's and GF's.
CWs can tank, but not as well as GF's.
CWs have best AOE damage, but not as good as SW's.
CWs have best single-target damage, but not as good as TR's.
CWs have the best AOE CC. That is correct. That is their primary job but not their only job.
Furthermore, NO CONTROL WIZARD EVER can do ALL of those things *simultaneously*.
ur class should have primary focus on CC
No it shouldn't, and this is where you and your fellow CW haters want to pigeon-hole CWs into one narrow role. CW is a jack-of-all-trades class. It can and should be able to do many things (they are wizards after all) but it can't do all things simultaneously as well as every other class.
And look, just do the math. It isn't that hard to do.
If you calculate how much damage a CW takes after repeated blows, even with Shield on Spell Mastery, and compare it to how much damage a GWF takes after repeated blows, taking into account activation of Unstoppable, then the CW is only "tankier" than the GWF at the very start of the fight when the CW gets full use of the 80% DR from the shield. From that point forward, the GWF becomes tankier because the GWF is able to build up his determination and increase his DR from 15-30%, *in addition to getting Temporary Hit Points*, while CWs will only ever get 25% DR from that point forward, and will never get Temp HP.
A CW is tankier only on the first several hits. After that, the GWF wins.
and again let make the other classes better not nerf one that is doing what it needs to do mod 6 is going to require everyones defence be raised not the cw nerfed to there level if you nerf the cw then in mod 6 everyone is dead
Call me unproductive, but I enjoyed reading this discussion. You got your *** served. Let the casters cast, they're not supposed to tank for themselves or most importantly freaking tank more than actual TANKS. I'm not calling for a nerf, I hardly care, I'm calling for balance. Let the tanks tank, seriously.
so there we go ur class have it all so stop talking nonsense.
Yes CW has it all, but not as well as the other classes that have specific roles in those areas.
CWs are never better healers than Faithful DCs, nor should they be.
CW rene buffs are far supperior to the ones DC/GF offers
That's not even close to true. Please learn about how Divine Glow, Into The Fray and Knight's Valor work.
the moment GF block bar runs out GF is a toast while CW have 25% unmitigated DR and dodges on top of it
GF has tools to recover block, reflect damage, heal himself based on damage done, intercept damage going to the party and take it himself. CWs cannot do any of that. That is why GF is a better tank. 25% DR is nothing compared to sharing your DR with the whole party.
SW AoE dmg is coming from TT which is neavily nerfed in m6
Eh not really. It is just not as bursty, that is all.
sorry but with current mod 6 mobs dmg TR ill spend more time dodging than dpsing
Well then that's your fault. Point is, Executioner TR will outperform any CW in single target DPS.
Stop thinking so narrowly about CW and demanding that it only be a singbot.
I think the way the current meta works, skilled people are simply more adept at negating damage using dodge. It certainly doesn't help that atm all non-sprint/shield classes potentially have 4+ dodges. Each dodge provides around 1-2 seconds of invulnerability (HRs get more dodges but shorter invulnerability time), so that's potentially 4-8 seconds of invulnerability total along with whatever else these classes have to mitigate damage (whether through control, buffs or debuffs).
Note that Neverwinter being the action game it is, 4-8 seconds is a LOT.
Note that, in the end, all this boils down to invulnerability. It doesn't even have to be actual invulnerability - TR stealth pretty much works like invulnerability in many aspects, and we all that know how ridiculously powerful that thing is atm.
The first/second hit of the Shield simply gives the CW pseudo-invulnerability. Once the CW notices the hit and starts employing his other invulns/dodges, it's only a matter of time before he decides to drop a control power on you. Or someone else kills you, because you were too busy trying to focus on the dodging CW.
TBH I see no problem with the CW's Shield itself, the problem is when you combine it with all the other survivability goodies that CWs get. This is especially problematic in PvP where burst damage is king atm and dodging a potential burst can mean all the difference. However the meta is going to change in mod6, and if the beta days of the game were any indication CWs are probably going to need that survivability.
Buffing the other side seems to be the best course of action.
Personally I'd just reduce the cost of some GWF dailies to 50-75%. I've always found it disturbing how ridiculously bad GWF dailies were considering their cost, despite the very real potential they have defensive-wise. SWs are already supposed to be able to significantly reduce the amount of damage they take from attacks using specific at-wills/encounters, it's just that the mechanic isn't working well atm. GFs are already getting various buffs.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
To conclude, clearly a portion of the GF and GWF population were unloved as infants and therefore were not breastfed...had they been they would now be enjoying their CW...or perhaps TR...or Trapper HR....
CWs heal the party, but not as well as DC's.
CWs buff the party, but not as well as DC's and GF's.
CWs can tank, but not as well as GF's.
CWs have best AOE damage, but not as good as SW's.
CWs have best single-target damage, but not as good as TR's.
CWs have the best AOE CC. That is correct. That is their primary job but not their only job.
Furthermore, NO CONTROL WIZARD EVER can do ALL of those things *simultaneously*.
No it shouldn't, and this is where you and your fellow CW haters want to pigeon-hole CWs into one narrow role. CW is a jack-of-all-trades class. It can and should be able to do many things (they are wizards after all) but it can't do all things simultaneously as well as every other class.
I go into this thread with your post:
How other classes can heal the party?
CWs buff the party by huge damage values(= DR debuffs)
CW can tank in a different way as GFs. Tanking don't mean absorb huge amount of damage at once. It mean having the control OVER the opponent to DON'T hurt the others. With huge CC/Damage, they can achieve an aggromod, that allow tanking against other partymember. A GF can be on the Top of the aggrotable, but does this matter if the mob flying arround, slowly walking again to him to get smashed to the bottom(from IK for example)?
Your list is exactly, WHAT IS BROKEN. It's a very good allrounder class instead of being specific an average jack of trades style.
THAT is one broken fact.
But the other side is: As GF Protector with 59.8% DR(lvl 60 live), I don't see primary the point in increasing my DR(as it does more buff the lower side i. e. Conquerer) as the HP value everyone get. The +HP bonuses MUST go to TOTAL, not to leveling one. THEN we can look at Gearhp, increasing them for tankier classes(or classes that need it - SW). And AT LAST, we can look at DR for the tankier classes. Because going first the way of DR is a DEAD END. What does it help me, if I reach 80%+(in some cases I come very close to this in PvE like AOE/DOT damage attacks), but the Damage hits are so high, that the rest of 20% literally kill me as OS? Especially it buff the lower end as I said.
im sorry what?
25% unmitigable DR shield 100% uptime is way more than GWF with 50% DR in unstoppable that last 4 seconds.
yes GWF get temp hp from unstoppable what if u had to lose 25% of ur hp to activate class ability?
A GWF gets to increase his DR from anywhere between 15%-50% via the Unstoppable mechanic, and to do it again and again and again throughout the encounter. A CW cannot. It remains a flat 25% for the remainder of the fight. That is how GWF wins *in the long run*.
Yes CW has it all, but not as well as the other classes that have specific roles in those areas.
CWs are never better healers than Faithful DCs, nor should they be.
CW rene buffs are far supperior to the ones DC/GF offers
That's not even close to true. Please learn about how Divine Glow, Into The Fray and Knight's Valor work.
the moment GF block bar runs out GF is a toast while CW have 25% unmitigated DR and dodges on top of it
GF has tools to recover block, reflect damage, heal himself based on damage done, intercept damage going to the party and take it himself. CWs cannot do any of that. That is why GF is a better tank. 25% DR is nothing compared to sharing your DR with the whole party.
SW AoE dmg is coming from TT which is neavily nerfed in m6
Eh not really. It is just not as bursty, that is all.
sorry but with current mod 6 mobs dmg TR ill spend more time dodging than dpsing
Well then that's your fault. Point is, Executioner TR will outperform any CW in single target DPS.
Stop thinking so narrowly about CW and demanding that it only be a singbot.
CW's having multiple hats and not being AWESOME at any of the fields is now an achievement? What happened to ONE field of expertise?
CONTROL wizard. Not DPS wizard. Not healing wizard. Not buffing wizard. Not tank wizard. CONTROL wizard. This is the main area of expertise. Stick to it and say thank you to the devs who were either drunk or kind enough to give cw's 10 pve hat roles. Sure, cw's are super fun to play, and it takes some serious practice to understand the class and be good, but admit it, there's no balance.
I think it just pisses some people off that there is one class that is not so narrowly focused towards one specific task, that the CW is the utility player on the team.
25% is not *only* in DR.. On live when a DC wants to get tanky one way they do it is by choosing the AC paragon and stacking a class feature (AA 6%), an encounter (Exalt 10%), and an at will (BoB 6%) to get a total of 22% _mitigable_ DR. Mind you even that doesn't have 100% uptime.. Maybe this will give some perspective to why people think Shield is a bit much.
CW's having multiple hats and not being AWESOME at any of the fields is now an achievement? What happened to ONE field of expertise?
CONTROL wizard. Not DPS wizard. Not healing wizard. Not buffing wizard. Not tank wizard. CONTROL wizard. This is the main area of expertise. Stick to it and say thank you to the devs who were either drunk or kind enough to give cw's 10 pve hat roles. Sure, cw's are super fun to play, and it takes some serious practice to understand the class and be good, but admit it, there's no balance.
so then by your logic gf shold never be dps dc should never be dps
cw are not tanks the can take 2-3 hits before they die if a cw has shield on tab that removes 25% of there dps its a chise they must chose surviabily or dps
CW's having multiple hats and not being AWESOME at any of the fields is now an achievement? What happened to ONE field of expertise?
CONTROL wizard. Not DPS wizard. Not healing wizard. Not buffing wizard. Not tank wizard. CONTROL wizard. This is the main area of expertise. Stick to it and say thank you to the devs who were either drunk or kind enough to give cw's 10 pve hat roles. Sure, cw's are super fun to play, and it takes some serious practice to understand the class and be good, but admit it, there's no balance.
Those are all forms of control, if you broaden your perspective on what CONTROL really means.
The CW is the utility class and some people are threatened by that, because a well-played CW *is* able to do a better job at some roles than the class specifically designed for that role. But that is due to the skill behind the character, and not the class itself.
Comments
But you cast a magic spell that allows you to mitigate more damage than those steel wearers, on a one-time basis though.
so what you propose is no one survie 3 hits in mod 6
what i suggest is that gf gwf get a big bost in defence from ac ie there steel armor
casters get theres from there spels cw dc sw
and tr hr get theres from there agility ie deflect
all of these need to be made viable in mod 6
that sounds absurd?
But CWs CAN'T do what other classes can do "but better" over a sustained period of time.
CW has a shield that can mitigate one huge burst of damage, and can do it better than a GF or GWF. That is right. But it is a one-time deal. Then the effectiveness of the shield goes way down. The GF's Block and the GWF's Unstoppable class mechanics, however, remain unchanged.
what im trying to do is make everyone better
cw must chose
1 buff
2 control
3 dps
4 survivabilty
if you want dps then you give up shield for surviabilty
if yo want to buff party then you give up dps
That said, I do think the BEST solution here given ALL the data we currently have about PVP/PVE/Mod6 etc is to significantly BUFF AC.
What will this do?
Well it will make the tank classes much tankier and the squishy classes seem more squishy. Given the nature of PVE damage as is, we all now DR is something we really need buffed and the BEST way to do this is to buff AC.
Now there are TWO ways this can be accomplished that BOTH will benefit tanky classes more than non-tanky ones.
Option 1) Give a FLAT bonus to AC of 3 AC = 2% DR. Classes like CW natually have less AC and will benefit much less than classes which are much more tanky and benefit from AC more.
Option 2) Make Defense STAT boost AC effectiveness. This offers more build variety/unique-ness I think in that Defense would not only give DR but boost AC effectiveness (I would say at a 100:1% ratio).
What this means is if you stack 8,000 defense. Your DR would be only 20%, but you would get an 80% INCREASE in benefits of AC (nearly DOUBLING) your AC.
Thus Defense and AC work best when stacked together.
Both of these would accomplish making tanky classes better than non-tank classes DR-wise and this would also alleviate some PVE concerns.
CWs heal the party, but not as well as DC's.
CWs buff the party, but not as well as DC's and GF's.
CWs can tank, but not as well as GF's.
CWs have best AOE damage, but not as good as SW's.
CWs have best single-target damage, but not as good as TR's.
CWs have the best AOE CC. That is correct. That is their primary job but not their only job.
Furthermore, NO CONTROL WIZARD EVER can do ALL of those things *simultaneously*.
No it shouldn't, and this is where you and your fellow CW haters want to pigeon-hole CWs into one narrow role. CW is a jack-of-all-trades class. It can and should be able to do many things (they are wizards after all) but it can't do all things simultaneously as well as every other class.
If you calculate how much damage a CW takes after repeated blows, even with Shield on Spell Mastery, and compare it to how much damage a GWF takes after repeated blows, taking into account activation of Unstoppable, then the CW is only "tankier" than the GWF at the very start of the fight when the CW gets full use of the 80% DR from the shield. From that point forward, the GWF becomes tankier because the GWF is able to build up his determination and increase his DR from 15-30%, *in addition to getting Temporary Hit Points*, while CWs will only ever get 25% DR from that point forward, and will never get Temp HP.
A CW is tankier only on the first several hits. After that, the GWF wins.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
Yes CW has it all, but not as well as the other classes that have specific roles in those areas.
CWs are never better healers than Faithful DCs, nor should they be.
CW rene buffs are far supperior to the ones DC/GF offers
That's not even close to true. Please learn about how Divine Glow, Into The Fray and Knight's Valor work.
the moment GF block bar runs out GF is a toast while CW have 25% unmitigated DR and dodges on top of it
GF has tools to recover block, reflect damage, heal himself based on damage done, intercept damage going to the party and take it himself. CWs cannot do any of that. That is why GF is a better tank. 25% DR is nothing compared to sharing your DR with the whole party.
SW AoE dmg is coming from TT which is neavily nerfed in m6
Eh not really. It is just not as bursty, that is all.
sorry but with current mod 6 mobs dmg TR ill spend more time dodging than dpsing
Well then that's your fault. Point is, Executioner TR will outperform any CW in single target DPS.
Stop thinking so narrowly about CW and demanding that it only be a singbot.
Note that Neverwinter being the action game it is, 4-8 seconds is a LOT.
Note that, in the end, all this boils down to invulnerability. It doesn't even have to be actual invulnerability - TR stealth pretty much works like invulnerability in many aspects, and we all that know how ridiculously powerful that thing is atm.
The first/second hit of the Shield simply gives the CW pseudo-invulnerability. Once the CW notices the hit and starts employing his other invulns/dodges, it's only a matter of time before he decides to drop a control power on you. Or someone else kills you, because you were too busy trying to focus on the dodging CW.
TBH I see no problem with the CW's Shield itself, the problem is when you combine it with all the other survivability goodies that CWs get. This is especially problematic in PvP where burst damage is king atm and dodging a potential burst can mean all the difference. However the meta is going to change in mod6, and if the beta days of the game were any indication CWs are probably going to need that survivability.
Buffing the other side seems to be the best course of action.
Personally I'd just reduce the cost of some GWF dailies to 50-75%. I've always found it disturbing how ridiculously bad GWF dailies were considering their cost, despite the very real potential they have defensive-wise. SWs are already supposed to be able to significantly reduce the amount of damage they take from attacks using specific at-wills/encounters, it's just that the mechanic isn't working well atm. GFs are already getting various buffs.
I go into this thread with your post:
How other classes can heal the party?
CWs buff the party by huge damage values(= DR debuffs)
CW can tank in a different way as GFs. Tanking don't mean absorb huge amount of damage at once. It mean having the control OVER the opponent to DON'T hurt the others. With huge CC/Damage, they can achieve an aggromod, that allow tanking against other partymember. A GF can be on the Top of the aggrotable, but does this matter if the mob flying arround, slowly walking again to him to get smashed to the bottom(from IK for example)?
Your list is exactly, WHAT IS BROKEN. It's a very good allrounder class instead of being specific an average jack of trades style.
THAT is one broken fact.
But the other side is: As GF Protector with 59.8% DR(lvl 60 live), I don't see primary the point in increasing my DR(as it does more buff the lower side i. e. Conquerer) as the HP value everyone get. The +HP bonuses MUST go to TOTAL, not to leveling one. THEN we can look at Gearhp, increasing them for tankier classes(or classes that need it - SW). And AT LAST, we can look at DR for the tankier classes. Because going first the way of DR is a DEAD END. What does it help me, if I reach 80%+(in some cases I come very close to this in PvE like AOE/DOT damage attacks), but the Damage hits are so high, that the rest of 20% literally kill me as OS? Especially it buff the lower end as I said.
A GWF gets to increase his DR from anywhere between 15%-50% via the Unstoppable mechanic, and to do it again and again and again throughout the encounter. A CW cannot. It remains a flat 25% for the remainder of the fight. That is how GWF wins *in the long run*.
CW's having multiple hats and not being AWESOME at any of the fields is now an achievement? What happened to ONE field of expertise?
CONTROL wizard. Not DPS wizard. Not healing wizard. Not buffing wizard. Not tank wizard. CONTROL wizard. This is the main area of expertise. Stick to it and say thank you to the devs who were either drunk or kind enough to give cw's 10 pve hat roles. Sure, cw's are super fun to play, and it takes some serious practice to understand the class and be good, but admit it, there's no balance.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
so then by your logic gf shold never be dps dc should never be dps
cw are not tanks the can take 2-3 hits before they die if a cw has shield on tab that removes 25% of there dps its a chise they must chose surviabily or dps
Those are all forms of control, if you broaden your perspective on what CONTROL really means.
The CW is the utility class and some people are threatened by that, because a well-played CW *is* able to do a better job at some roles than the class specifically designed for that role. But that is due to the skill behind the character, and not the class itself.