You are also apparently unable to comprehend the written word since I have frequently stated that one TR tree is overpowered due to it's combination of permastealth and high damage. And yet you claim I defend 'OPness'. No. I defend a class I enjoy playing from ignorant ranting when the ranter clearly has no clue.
Its not one tree that is overpowered its at least 2 and exe is one of them i let you figure out the rest mkay.
And without "copy quoting" to much even if you dont write the same total nonsence as Kweassa you are still out on a crusade to defend what is to all non Trs obviously broken.
When it comes down to "exposing the biased and ignorant misinformation" to prevent a nerf to pve I agree but it has to be done in a constructive way where the solution leads to balance the Tr in pvp without impacting on pve performance.
That is a long way from trying to prove that every single person writing something negative about Tr is a complete nab and understand absolutly nothing about the game/class mechanics.
Its very easy to look at the threads you and Kweassa writes in and how you confront the different other players posts -
its not a very pretty reading imho....
Its not one tree that is overpowered its at least 2 and exe is one of them i let you figure out the rest mkay.
And without "copy quoting" to much even if you dont write the same total nonsence as Kweassa you are still out on a crusade to defend what is to all non Trs obviously broken.
I'm not on any kind of 'crusade'. And one man's 'obviously broken' is another man's WAI. That's why I focus on the 'technicalities' rather than "UG. ME LOSE TO TR. NERF NAOW" type posts.
When it comes down to "exposing the biased and ignorant misinformation" to prevent a nerf to pve I agree but it has to be done in a constructive way where the solution leads to balance the Tr in pvp without impacting on pve performance.
I think you have your priorities reversed. First and foremost no change should be made that has a negative impact on PvE. If, by happy coincidence, that results in better balance in the minority pastime that is PvP then great. Otherwise - too bad.
That is a long way from trying to prove that every single person writing something negative about Tr is a complete nab and understand absolutly nothing about the game/class mechanics.
Its very easy to look at the threads you and Kweassa writes in and how you confront the different other players post -
its not a very pretty reading imho....
I'm not trying to prove anything. It just so happens that a few of the loudest critics of the TR also have no clue about how things work. I've had plenty of civilised conversations with other folk about the same topic.
When someone repeats the same nonsense over, and over, and over again I admit that frustration gets the better of me. I don't suffer fools gladly. It's a failing of mine.
When someone repeats the same nonsense over, and over, and over again I admit that frustration gets the better of me. I don't suffer fools gladly. It's a failing of mine
Then we share some common ground here and I can to some extent agree with you that unfortenately some post obscure the real agenda of bringing balance with to much of to to much gibberish.
I'm not on any kind of 'crusade'. And one man's 'obviously broken' is another man's WAI. That's why I focus on the 'technicalities' rather than "UG. ME LOSE TO TR. NERF NAOW" type posts.
In this case "obvious broken" does not translate to WAI when it comes to pvp and TR they are simply put the very worst case scenario this game has even seen when it comes to destroying pvp and making people quit for the sole reason they cant stand it any more..
I think you have your priorities reversed. First and foremost no change should be made that has a negative impact on PvE. If, by happy coincidence, that results in better balance in the minority pastime that is PvP then great. Otherwise - too bad.
As my first char was Gf and Gwf and as I played since beta I know all to well the LFG with non wanted classes in pve and I wish no harm to the TR in Pve never have and probably never will as it dont matter what class you have they all can manage the pve content in this game so far.
The nerf on Gwfs is a very good example of how crying for nerfs in pvp (and to some extent pve by some cw that couldent stand to be challanged in their domain) made a huge negative impact on pve, so severe that the actual majority just quit playing if not all together so at least the Gwfs they had.
But right now Tr need to be balanced in PVP and its more then urgent because soon we dont have any pvp left.
Hear that noise? It was the sound of your credibility evaporating.
He just dissed every HR, GWF, CW in the game as well and opened them up for 'nerf CCs' discussions, lol.
He's right. It doesn't make difference whether it's 10, 8, 6, or 3. We must nerf all GWF stuns, nerf all CW chain CCs and nerf the HR Disruptive-boarcharge combos. RRRRRRROFL won't that be something.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
What exactly has Dazing Strike todo with Scoundrel and why should it be "toned down"?
He's probably referring to the ease of hitting due to fast activation.
But then again, when there's stuff like Icy Rays which CCs people from a range, with activation speed so fast that even the developers showed up in the forums and admitted that it is 'improbable to expect to be dodged', then one must wonder, must Dazing Strike be pulled back into the absolute nothingness in PvP, like it was when it had that abysmal slow activation?
Personally, I don't think so. I don't think a quick bop on the head with your fist, should be activated slower than a something like a 7 feet tall giant swining a 6' long two-handed sword by the hilt to stun someone -- which always used to happen prior to the change.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's a TR power, so it has everything to do with Scoundrels. The daze is a bit too long in conjunction with the general Scoundrel dazes. All that said, it's still something good players can manage, but I do understand player complaints.
So it's a Scoundrel feat issue and not a dazing strike issue since it's a skill for every path but players only complain about one of them?
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited December 2014
You will see more and more tr going full daze because you cried about. Our stealth.
Remove daze and we will find another way to beat you down.
You got what you had coming...
You made this happen...
We were created by your tears...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
It's a TR power, so it has everything to do with Scoundrels. The daze is a bit too long in conjunction with the general Scoundrel dazes. All that said, it's still something good players can manage, but I do understand player complaints.
As long as people can move at the same speeds whether or not the daze, then that's still counter intuitive to EVERY melee at-will or encounter the TR has. The moment Dazing Strike lands TRs lose the 'in-stealth' speed buff. It means you aren't hitting someone for more than once, or maybe even twice with a melee power unless you actively move around and chase it. The 4s default duration of Dazing Strike makes it possible to at least land a few melee strikes while the target is vulnerable. I've often complained that daze is about the most useless and difficult CC in the game and it still is.
Lookit the situation surrounding Dazing Strike for most Scoundrels. In reality, the daze doesn't allow you to "Ohh, the enemy is impaired! My chance to land extra damage!" as you might think. When you really observe it, you will realize the actual amount of 'extra damage' that you deal when the target is dazed and vulnerable, is pathetically low and infrequent.
The ACTUAL combat damage comes from Dazing Strike hit and the few extra at-wills itself, since it's a useful mid-range damage power with a relative short cooldown, considering generally how long TR powers are in recharge.
This means daze, for TRs, is in reality much more DEFENSIVE than OFFENSIVE. Scoundrels operate with such short stealth spans because they have the dazes and their duration as a defense.
If you shorten the span/duration of dazes, that brings the Scoundrel TRs right back to the 'defenseless while unstealthed' situation we had in prior mods. Then the alternative MUST be the 'daze' CCs changing into something that allows more damage, to kill opponents faster, in turn.
So I'd accept shorter span on daze-CCs as well as dazing strike IF it's all changed to stuns. Oh yeah. THEN people will see what damage the TR can put up with when its opponents are not only CCd, but can't run and move around like a daze... and then they're gonna BEG to have it changed back to dazes.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So I'd accept shorter span on daze-CCs as well as dazing strike IF it's all changed to stuns. Oh yeah. THEN people will see what damage the TR can put up with when its opponents are not only CCd, but can't run and move around like a daze... and then they're gonna BEG to have it changed back to dazes.
In short you accept changes that will make you allready OP class more OP but opppose things that would bring them in line how
generous of you ....
If you shorten the span/duration of dazes, that brings the Scoundrel TRs right back to the 'defenseless while unstealthed' situation we had in prior mods.
Exept for the fact you have ALOT MORE DAMAGE NOW and extra dodge with extra long range + tons of other better ways of making damage then before right...
Kweassa do everybody a favor and keep your postings to things outside the Tr territorry because right now if we would put a vote up on what people think about your arguments it would not end up very well - for sadly a very good reason mkay...
Piejal, where on Earth are you getting this idea that TRs can stack Recovery so well?
It's depend on perception at least TR is better at stack recovery after CW
i think the solution is make the cooldown increase or make it like frezze CW only can be apply again after 30s on the same target
You will see more and more tr going full daze because you cried about. Our stealth.
Remove daze and we will find another way to beat you down.
You got what you had coming...
You made this happen...
We were created by your tears...
Yes this will happen over and over again until TR can't become OP and hold title of balance
If TR class become a mess it's because people who exploit Dev mistake like you
In short you accept changes that will make you allready OP class more OP but opppose things that would bring them in line how
It's no more OP than a GWF defending itself with an extra DR+CC immunity mechanic, is it?
Pray tell how a Scoundrel can defend itself when:
(a) your position is now revealed/updated with attacks in stealth
(b) you have the game's lowest DR/defense without any secondary self-buffs like CW shield
(c) you don't have the easy-peasy Sprint mechanics like the GWFs
(d) your 'deflect' doesn't allow you freebie HP refills like the HR
(e) you don't have insta-restealth mechanics like a Saboteuer
(f) nor do you have "kill before be killed" mega-hit damage of the Executioners
You really don't know what it means to be "OP", since you haven't a clue on how these mechanics work out.
Exept for the fact you have ALOT MORE DAMAGE NOW and extra dodge with extra long range + tons of other better ways of making damage then before right...
How much does dodge range help against CWs? Tons of damage? There you go again. Jumbling up all TR attributes and using is as some blanket-dissin' effigy of an imaginary TR that doesn't exist in real life.
WHAT ton of damage? Do you even know why real premade-level people don't play Scoundrels?
Kweassa do everybody a favor and keep your postings to things outside the Tr territorry because right now if we would put a vote up on what people think about your arguments it would not end up very well - for sadly a very good reason mkay...
As if a horde of two-bit whiney idiots with L2P issues matter in terms of what's correct and incorrect. You could bring in five billion people arguing the sun comes up from the West, and that doesn't make it anymore the 'truth'.
I'm kinda skeptical at this point as to whether you, or anyone in this thread complaining, would even be able to tell the difference between a Scoundrel and a Sab, if you check your interfaces to not show combat text pop-ups in the middle of a fight, since most TRs in the past week are still staying with their Sabs or Execs, and Scos remaining the least of the three paths.
The simple reality here is you don't really know what a Scoundrel is, or it does. I doubt you've even met a real Scoundrel. You did say you don't even play PvP anymore, did you not? Which probably means you don't know how the most recent mechanics play out. You've never even really met, or fought against real Scoundrels be it MIs or WKs, so naturally you have no choice to resort to repeating the 'chant' -- you're so OP OP OP OP -- ad nauseaum.
You don't have any specifics we can really debate about, because you don't know any specifics about us Scoundrels. THAT'S why you resort to huge load of vague presumptions coming from a really bad attitude that assumes that TR is OP because a lot of people think so.
It is exactly the reason I am requesting, for the third or fourth time, that we speak with an actual evidence at hand, a footage, or anything specific we can make comments about and then compare opinions. And I don't see any of you louts showing any intention of making this discussion really matter.
If you're playing perfectly without any flaws, and you're still being crushed just because the TR is so OP as to ROFLSTOMP on your excellent game management, and it happens so often as to warrant a problem in balance, the MI/Scos dazing people for 10 seconds straight continuously to permadaze... then come on, what's the hold up?
We really aren't getting anywhere until someone comes up with a real showcase as to what you are claiming. So again, I await your combat footages/recordings.
I mean anyone, geez, you all complain the MI Scoundrels are doing this. Doesn't even ONE of you have any recordings of anything you do? :rolleyes:
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's depend on perception at least TR is better at stack recovery after CW
i think the solution is make the cooldown increase or make it like frezze CW only can be apply again after 30s on the same target
pffft, my wizard has 43.8% recharge and another 30% for my tab ability (not to mention the free 10% from a feat). my cleric has 30.8% (even higher if i put more into Cha) and warlock has 27.8%.
my rogue? 19.1% and purified set doesn't give any recovery. even worse since i use defensive rings to boost my deflect over 50%. my best in all offensive gear is like around 28% but that's if i forfeit tenacity, purified set bonus, and like 6-8% deflect. quite frankly, i don't think it's worth it to swap in pvp.
In short you accept changes that will make you allready OP class more OP but opppose things that would bring them in line how
then you agree that stuns are an improvement over dazes? even if it can be reduced by deflect, the sheer fact that people can't run afterwards is a huge benefit to us.
Yes this will happen over and over again until TR can't become OP and hold title of balance
If TR class become a mess it's because people who exploit Dev mistake like you
the last time people said that, we were nerfed into uselessness. oh wait, i forgot. we could still run circles on a node and die a whole lot less than anyone else.
our class became a mess because squishies can't except that they are supposed to die by the 1 vs 1 class if they don't have the skill to dodge attacks from stealth.
(a) your position is now revealed/updated with attacks in stealth Scoundrel gameplay isn't based around stealth
(b) you have the game's lowest DR/defense without any secondary self-buffs like CW shield And the highest deflection with 75% deflect severity
(c) you don't have the easy-peasy Sprint mechanics like the GWFs But you have ~40-50% base movement speed as a Scoundrel
(d) your 'deflect' doesn't allow you freebie HP refills like the HR But it makes you negate 90% of the damage you take
(e) you don't have insta-restealth mechanics like a Saboteuer You don't need one when your target is perma-dazed and can't fight back
(f) nor do you have "kill before be killed" mega-hit damage of the Executioners First strike oneshots are available to everyone and Scoundrel's target is dazed for ~5 seconds after taking LB hit
You're welcome.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
(a) Scoundrel gameplay isn't based around stealth the people on this thread argue a MI Scoundrel can chain-daze people by using CS mechanics, so its forced back into relevance
(b) ...And the highest deflection with 75% deflect severity which is based on chance mechanics that isn't particularly higher than any other class. Wanna see what happens to GWFs if Unstoppable CC immunity becomes chance based? Let's turn it into 40% chance to ignore CCs and see if that's stable enough to protect your HAMSTER. Oh, btw, let's also cut down the overall DR to 25~28% while we're at it.
(c) But you have ~40-50% base movement speed as a Scoundrel No you don't. Didn't you just say yourself Scoundrel isn't based on stealth?
(d) But it makes you negate 90% of the damage you take if you're lucky.
(e) You don't need one when your target is perma-dazed and can't fight back there's no such thing
(f) First strike oneshots are available to everyone and Scoundrel's target is dazed for ~5 seconds after taking LB hit Scoundrels don't use LB
Much the same question I must ask; did you even meet a Scoundrel before? :rolleyes:
Scoundrels with First Strike and LB... **mmpffffffftt** ...sorry, almost laughed there. Seriously, even with FS and LB Scoundrel hits nothing like an Executioner. There are a LOT more buffs from the Execs that allow it to hit so hard. I did experiment it in the preview, and IIRC I've hit for maybe 27~28k against a CW without shield, similar GS.
So if you were expecting a Scoundrel to be hitting a 40k LB and then dazing someone for 4secs, no, I can really guarantee no Scoundrel in a real PvP match can do that. I can also guarantee no real Scoundrels use LB because it doesn't fit the M.O.. Its actually detrimental to Scoundrel-type gameplay and does more harm than good.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Much the same question I must ask; did you even meet a Scoundrel before? :rolleyes:
Scoundrels with First Strike and LB... **mmpffffffftt** ...sorry, almost laughed there. Seriously, even with FS and LB Scoundrel hits nothing like an Executioner. There are a LOT more buffs from the Execs that allow it to hit so hard. I did experiment it in the preview, and IIRC I've hit for maybe 27~28k against a CW without shield, similar GS.
So if you were expecting a Scoundrel to be hitting a 40k LB and then dazing someone for 4secs, no, I can really guarantee no Scoundrel in a real PvP match can do that. I can also guarantee no real Scoundrels use LB because it doesn't fit the M.O.. Its actually detrimental to Scoundrel-type gameplay and does more harm than good.
Did I say that they use LB and first strike? I said that they may use LB and first strike, the same as you're saying that every other class has all tools combined at once to counter TRs so easily. If you don't use LB+FS as a Scoundrel and complain you have no burst opener - this is your problem. From TR's POV is seems like your victim always sprints, shields SE and doesn't have reveal on their stealth. Oh, they don't even have one. It's not that easy to cheese your target when it tries to move, dodge or use abilities, would it be better to automatically daze all foes around TR to make his life easier? I think so.
It's so shame Scoundrels can't kill you with 40k LB and are able to take off only 2/3 of your HP bar in one hit, need a buff?
Just noticed
(c) But you have ~40-50% base movement speed as a Scoundrel
No you don't. Didn't you just say yourself Scoundrel isn't based on stealth?
15% MI passive + 25% Scoundrel capstone + ~10% from darks in utility = 50% move speed outside of stealth.
You're pathetic.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Did I say that they use LB and first strike? I said that they may use LB and first strike, the same as you're saying that every other class has all tools combined at once to counter TRs so easily. If you don't use LB+FS as a Scoundrel and complain you have no burst opener - this is your problem. From TR's POV is seems like your victim always sprints, shields SE and doesn't have reveal on their stealth. Oh, they don't even have one. It's not that easy to cheese your target when it tries to move, dodge or use abilities, would it be better to automatically daze all foes around TR to make his life easier? I think so.
It's so shame Scoundrels can't kill you with 40k LB and are able to take off only 2/3 of your HP bar in one hit, need a buff?
if people wanted to play an executioner build, they would be an executioner. we can use lashing + 1st strike but it's too gimmicky for practical use (and begs the question why you didn't just roll an executioner and do the job better). also, dazing strike ----> stealthed lashing is better for dps than 1st strike, but it's something that can only be done once every 17 seconds
we are the path that stays in combat instead of running away to reset 1st strike every time if we succeed/fail
Lets start with this somebody made it easy for me as usally is the case after you posted something *wounder why....
You really don't know what it means to be "OP", since you haven't a clue on how these mechanics work out.
Quote Originally Posted by kweassa View Post
Pray tell how a Scoundrel can defend itself when:
(a) your position is now revealed/updated with attacks in stealth Scoundrel gameplay isn't based around stealth
(b) you have the game's lowest DR/defense without any secondary self-buffs like CW shield And the highest deflection with 75% deflect severity
(c) you don't have the easy-peasy Sprint mechanics like the GWFs But you have ~40-50% base movement speed as a Scoundrel
(d) your 'deflect' doesn't allow you freebie HP refills like the HR But it makes you negate 90% of the damage you take
(e) you don't have insta-restealth mechanics like a Saboteuer You don't need one when your target is perma-dazed and can't fight back
(f) nor do you have "kill before be killed" mega-hit damage of the Executioners First strike oneshots are available to everyone and Scoundrel's target is dazed for ~5 seconds after taking LB hit
You're welcome.
If you where a laywer and defending the Tr class and I was a Tr i fire you *** and sue your company for incompetence.
You must either have a blind spot in your brain when it comes to reasoning to about the Tr class or a gigantic hole a void or simular....
I bet most Trs hardly dare to read what you write nowdays in fear of what you are doing to their case....
How much does dodge range help against CWs? Tons of damage? There you go again. Jumbling up all TR attributes and using is as some blanket-dissin' effigy of an imaginary TR that doesn't exist in real life.[/QUOTE]
How about hide to get near other classes has to suck up the damage even get near...
And how many classes even got a chanse to escape 2 cws working together against them -yea right the Trs doh...
WHAT ton of damage? Do you even know why real premade-level people don't play Scoundrels?
Your point being its not the MOST efficient way to playing premade as a TR or ?? seen many Instigator Gwfs lately in premade ...
This means daze, for TRs, is in reality much more DEFENSIVE than OFFENSIVE. Scoundrels operate with such short stealth spans because they have the dazes and their duration as a defense.
Ok i died to a defencive ability that neutralized me instead of an offencive because you want to call it defensive ... your da man ..
THAT'S why you resort to huge load of vague presumptions coming from a really bad attitude that assumes that TR is OP because a lot of people think so.
Talk about throwing HUGE rocks in a glass house but I guess being blind its hard for you to see what you are doing....
Exept for the fact you have ALOT MORE DAMAGE NOW and extra dodge with extra long range + tons of other better ways of making damage then before right...
Scoundrel damage is exactly the same as Mod 4 except against CCed targets (if they take the right feat) and targets under the effect of Skullcracker. This is part of the point Scoundrels keep making and you seem to keep missing. They don't have 'tons of damage' and TRs who want to DPS do NOT pick Scoundrel. It's primarily a support/defensive tree. And this is why Scoundrels so fiercely defend their CC mechanics, because they literally have nothing else - no permastealth, no piercing damage, no one-shot kills; nothing.
It's depend on perception at least TR is better at stack recovery after CW
i think the solution is make the cooldown increase or make it like frezze CW only can be apply again after 30s on the same target
Here's the thing, perception is subjective. It isn't necessarily fact.
Its pretty well accepted that many of the TR's skills have looong cooldowns. For TRs INT (recharge speed) is a tertiary ability. CW and SW get it primary and secondary respectively. DC gets it from CHA as a secondary, but also INT as a tertiary.
Sooo, no advantage there. If you think it's from armour sets, then comparing the commonly used PvP sets because we are after all talking about the PvP arena:
Black Ice Purified/Corrupted/profound 1/2/3 (These are full sets including weapons and set bonuses)
To get Skullcracker to last 6 seconds you need to 'charge' it with attacks. Base duration is 4 seconds. And dazes don't stack so to extend to 10 seconds a TR must perfectly time DS or SB to hit EXACTLY as Skullcracker wears off. If you are really unlucky he could crit you just as the second daze wears off and add another 2.5s from Concussive Strikes proc.
But for this sequence to work requires you to have no tenacity or other CC immunity, stand perfectly still for at least 10s, and the TR to have good luck with timing and crits. In most real fights I have seen there are gaps in the daze duration because circumstances are not perfect and most players are much better than you are.
And adjusting Skullcracker will have zero effect. The Scoundrel feats are not the main issue - you can get very nearly as good control using an Executioner build in 1v1 as long as you slot SB and DS. And you'll die much faster to an Executioner.
Two things need to happen, in this order:
1. Make sure Daze is respecting CC resist/immunity in PvP. There is some evidence that it might not be.
2. THEN look at Daze duration against players - all dazes, not just Skullcracker.
After that, any other problems will be LTP issues.
tenacity doesn't work on concussive strike and dazing strike. Also dazing strike can daze a target who is in itc is you daze the target from behind. I think a certain tr can attest to that.
trs level of something being hard to land pales in comparison to other melee classes because ofc people don't see it coming and also if they do they are probably cc'ed. If you daze a target who has a cc immunity skill active at the moment from behind with dazing strike they will be cc'ed. even with the stealth nerf trs, next to control wizards, hrs , and warlocks have the easiest time landing skills.
Also dazing strike can daze a target who is in itc [....]
No. Dazing Strike can't daze an CC-immune target. It interrupts a cc immune target.
That bug has already been reported since... forever but sadly Dev's don't give a ****.
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No. Dazing Strike can't daze an CC-immune target. It interrupts a cc immune target.
That bug has already been reported since... forever but sadly Dev's don't give a ****.
yes it can, this is what i talk about all the time. It does dazing a cc immune target.
Comments
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Its not one tree that is overpowered its at least 2 and exe is one of them i let you figure out the rest mkay.
And without "copy quoting" to much even if you dont write the same total nonsence as Kweassa you are still out on a crusade to defend what is to all non Trs obviously broken.
When it comes down to "exposing the biased and ignorant misinformation" to prevent a nerf to pve I agree but it has to be done in a constructive way where the solution leads to balance the Tr in pvp without impacting on pve performance.
That is a long way from trying to prove that every single person writing something negative about Tr is a complete nab and understand absolutly nothing about the game/class mechanics.
Its very easy to look at the threads you and Kweassa writes in and how you confront the different other players posts -
its not a very pretty reading imho....
I think you have your priorities reversed. First and foremost no change should be made that has a negative impact on PvE. If, by happy coincidence, that results in better balance in the minority pastime that is PvP then great. Otherwise - too bad.
I'm not trying to prove anything. It just so happens that a few of the loudest critics of the TR also have no clue about how things work. I've had plenty of civilised conversations with other folk about the same topic.
When someone repeats the same nonsense over, and over, and over again I admit that frustration gets the better of me. I don't suffer fools gladly. It's a failing of mine.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Then we share some common ground here and I can to some extent agree with you that unfortenately some post obscure the real agenda of bringing balance with to much of to to much gibberish.
In this case "obvious broken" does not translate to WAI when it comes to pvp and TR they are simply put the very worst case scenario this game has even seen when it comes to destroying pvp and making people quit for the sole reason they cant stand it any more..
As my first char was Gf and Gwf and as I played since beta I know all to well the LFG with non wanted classes in pve and I wish no harm to the TR in Pve never have and probably never will as it dont matter what class you have they all can manage the pve content in this game so far.
The nerf on Gwfs is a very good example of how crying for nerfs in pvp (and to some extent pve by some cw that couldent stand to be challanged in their domain) made a huge negative impact on pve, so severe that the actual majority just quit playing if not all together so at least the Gwfs they had.
But right now Tr need to be balanced in PVP and its more then urgent because soon we dont have any pvp left.
Best
He just dissed every HR, GWF, CW in the game as well and opened them up for 'nerf CCs' discussions, lol.
He's right. It doesn't make difference whether it's 10, 8, 6, or 3. We must nerf all GWF stuns, nerf all CW chain CCs and nerf the HR Disruptive-boarcharge combos. RRRRRRROFL won't that be something.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
What exactly has Dazing Strike todo with Scoundrel and why should it be "toned down"?
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
He's probably referring to the ease of hitting due to fast activation.
But then again, when there's stuff like Icy Rays which CCs people from a range, with activation speed so fast that even the developers showed up in the forums and admitted that it is 'improbable to expect to be dodged', then one must wonder, must Dazing Strike be pulled back into the absolute nothingness in PvP, like it was when it had that abysmal slow activation?
Personally, I don't think so. I don't think a quick bop on the head with your fist, should be activated slower than a something like a 7 feet tall giant swining a 6' long two-handed sword by the hilt to stun someone -- which always used to happen prior to the change.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So it's a Scoundrel feat issue and not a dazing strike issue since it's a skill for every path but players only complain about one of them?
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Remove daze and we will find another way to beat you down.
You got what you had coming...
You made this happen...
We were created by your tears...
As long as people can move at the same speeds whether or not the daze, then that's still counter intuitive to EVERY melee at-will or encounter the TR has. The moment Dazing Strike lands TRs lose the 'in-stealth' speed buff. It means you aren't hitting someone for more than once, or maybe even twice with a melee power unless you actively move around and chase it. The 4s default duration of Dazing Strike makes it possible to at least land a few melee strikes while the target is vulnerable. I've often complained that daze is about the most useless and difficult CC in the game and it still is.
Lookit the situation surrounding Dazing Strike for most Scoundrels. In reality, the daze doesn't allow you to "Ohh, the enemy is impaired! My chance to land extra damage!" as you might think. When you really observe it, you will realize the actual amount of 'extra damage' that you deal when the target is dazed and vulnerable, is pathetically low and infrequent.
The ACTUAL combat damage comes from Dazing Strike hit and the few extra at-wills itself, since it's a useful mid-range damage power with a relative short cooldown, considering generally how long TR powers are in recharge.
This means daze, for TRs, is in reality much more DEFENSIVE than OFFENSIVE. Scoundrels operate with such short stealth spans because they have the dazes and their duration as a defense.
If you shorten the span/duration of dazes, that brings the Scoundrel TRs right back to the 'defenseless while unstealthed' situation we had in prior mods. Then the alternative MUST be the 'daze' CCs changing into something that allows more damage, to kill opponents faster, in turn.
So I'd accept shorter span on daze-CCs as well as dazing strike IF it's all changed to stuns. Oh yeah. THEN people will see what damage the TR can put up with when its opponents are not only CCd, but can't run and move around like a daze... and then they're gonna BEG to have it changed back to dazes.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
In short you accept changes that will make you allready OP class more OP but opppose things that would bring them in line how Exept for the fact you have ALOT MORE DAMAGE NOW and extra dodge with extra long range + tons of other better ways of making damage then before right...
Kweassa do everybody a favor and keep your postings to things outside the Tr territorry because right now if we would put a vote up on what people think about your arguments it would not end up very well - for sadly a very good reason mkay...
It's depend on perception at least TR is better at stack recovery after CW
i think the solution is make the cooldown increase or make it like frezze CW only can be apply again after 30s on the same target
Yes this will happen over and over again until TR can't become OP and hold title of balance
If TR class become a mess it's because people who exploit Dev mistake like you
It's no more OP than a GWF defending itself with an extra DR+CC immunity mechanic, is it?
Pray tell how a Scoundrel can defend itself when:
(a) your position is now revealed/updated with attacks in stealth
(b) you have the game's lowest DR/defense without any secondary self-buffs like CW shield
(c) you don't have the easy-peasy Sprint mechanics like the GWFs
(d) your 'deflect' doesn't allow you freebie HP refills like the HR
(e) you don't have insta-restealth mechanics like a Saboteuer
(f) nor do you have "kill before be killed" mega-hit damage of the Executioners
You really don't know what it means to be "OP", since you haven't a clue on how these mechanics work out.
How much does dodge range help against CWs? Tons of damage? There you go again. Jumbling up all TR attributes and using is as some blanket-dissin' effigy of an imaginary TR that doesn't exist in real life.
WHAT ton of damage? Do you even know why real premade-level people don't play Scoundrels?
As if a horde of two-bit whiney idiots with L2P issues matter in terms of what's correct and incorrect. You could bring in five billion people arguing the sun comes up from the West, and that doesn't make it anymore the 'truth'.
I'm kinda skeptical at this point as to whether you, or anyone in this thread complaining, would even be able to tell the difference between a Scoundrel and a Sab, if you check your interfaces to not show combat text pop-ups in the middle of a fight, since most TRs in the past week are still staying with their Sabs or Execs, and Scos remaining the least of the three paths.
The simple reality here is you don't really know what a Scoundrel is, or it does. I doubt you've even met a real Scoundrel. You did say you don't even play PvP anymore, did you not? Which probably means you don't know how the most recent mechanics play out. You've never even really met, or fought against real Scoundrels be it MIs or WKs, so naturally you have no choice to resort to repeating the 'chant' -- you're so OP OP OP OP -- ad nauseaum.
You don't have any specifics we can really debate about, because you don't know any specifics about us Scoundrels. THAT'S why you resort to huge load of vague presumptions coming from a really bad attitude that assumes that TR is OP because a lot of people think so.
It is exactly the reason I am requesting, for the third or fourth time, that we speak with an actual evidence at hand, a footage, or anything specific we can make comments about and then compare opinions. And I don't see any of you louts showing any intention of making this discussion really matter.
If you're playing perfectly without any flaws, and you're still being crushed just because the TR is so OP as to ROFLSTOMP on your excellent game management, and it happens so often as to warrant a problem in balance, the MI/Scos dazing people for 10 seconds straight continuously to permadaze... then come on, what's the hold up?
We really aren't getting anywhere until someone comes up with a real showcase as to what you are claiming. So again, I await your combat footages/recordings.
I mean anyone, geez, you all complain the MI Scoundrels are doing this. Doesn't even ONE of you have any recordings of anything you do? :rolleyes:
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
pffft, my wizard has 43.8% recharge and another 30% for my tab ability (not to mention the free 10% from a feat). my cleric has 30.8% (even higher if i put more into Cha) and warlock has 27.8%.
my rogue? 19.1% and purified set doesn't give any recovery. even worse since i use defensive rings to boost my deflect over 50%. my best in all offensive gear is like around 28% but that's if i forfeit tenacity, purified set bonus, and like 6-8% deflect. quite frankly, i don't think it's worth it to swap in pvp.
then you agree that stuns are an improvement over dazes? even if it can be reduced by deflect, the sheer fact that people can't run afterwards is a huge benefit to us.
the last time people said that, we were nerfed into uselessness. oh wait, i forgot. we could still run circles on a node and die a whole lot less than anyone else.
our class became a mess because squishies can't except that they are supposed to die by the 1 vs 1 class if they don't have the skill to dodge attacks from stealth.
You're welcome.
Much the same question I must ask; did you even meet a Scoundrel before? :rolleyes:
Scoundrels with First Strike and LB... **mmpffffffftt** ...sorry, almost laughed there. Seriously, even with FS and LB Scoundrel hits nothing like an Executioner. There are a LOT more buffs from the Execs that allow it to hit so hard. I did experiment it in the preview, and IIRC I've hit for maybe 27~28k against a CW without shield, similar GS.
So if you were expecting a Scoundrel to be hitting a 40k LB and then dazing someone for 4secs, no, I can really guarantee no Scoundrel in a real PvP match can do that. I can also guarantee no real Scoundrels use LB because it doesn't fit the M.O.. Its actually detrimental to Scoundrel-type gameplay and does more harm than good.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Did I say that they use LB and first strike? I said that they may use LB and first strike, the same as you're saying that every other class has all tools combined at once to counter TRs so easily. If you don't use LB+FS as a Scoundrel and complain you have no burst opener - this is your problem. From TR's POV is seems like your victim always sprints, shields SE and doesn't have reveal on their stealth. Oh, they don't even have one. It's not that easy to cheese your target when it tries to move, dodge or use abilities, would it be better to automatically daze all foes around TR to make his life easier? I think so.
It's so shame Scoundrels can't kill you with 40k LB and are able to take off only 2/3 of your HP bar in one hit, need a buff?
Just noticed
(c) But you have ~40-50% base movement speed as a Scoundrel
No you don't. Didn't you just say yourself Scoundrel isn't based on stealth?
15% MI passive + 25% Scoundrel capstone + ~10% from darks in utility = 50% move speed outside of stealth.
You're pathetic.
if people wanted to play an executioner build, they would be an executioner. we can use lashing + 1st strike but it's too gimmicky for practical use (and begs the question why you didn't just roll an executioner and do the job better). also, dazing strike ----> stealthed lashing is better for dps than 1st strike, but it's something that can only be done once every 17 seconds
we are the path that stays in combat instead of running away to reset 1st strike every time if we succeed/fail
If you where a laywer and defending the Tr class and I was a Tr i fire you *** and sue your company for incompetence.
You must either have a blind spot in your brain when it comes to reasoning to about the Tr class or a gigantic hole a void or simular....
I bet most Trs hardly dare to read what you write nowdays in fear of what you are doing to their case....
How much does dodge range help against CWs? Tons of damage? There you go again. Jumbling up all TR attributes and using is as some blanket-dissin' effigy of an imaginary TR that doesn't exist in real life.[/QUOTE]
How about hide to get near other classes has to suck up the damage even get near...
And how many classes even got a chanse to escape 2 cws working together against them -yea right the Trs doh...
Your point being its not the MOST efficient way to playing premade as a TR or ?? seen many Instigator Gwfs lately in premade ...
Ok i died to a defencive ability that neutralized me instead of an offencive because you want to call it defensive ... your da man ..
Talk about throwing HUGE rocks in a glass house but I guess being blind its hard for you to see what you are doing....
Best
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Here's the thing, perception is subjective. It isn't necessarily fact.
Its pretty well accepted that many of the TR's skills have looong cooldowns. For TRs INT (recharge speed) is a tertiary ability. CW and SW get it primary and secondary respectively. DC gets it from CHA as a secondary, but also INT as a tertiary.
Sooo, no advantage there. If you think it's from armour sets, then comparing the commonly used PvP sets because we are after all talking about the PvP arena:
Black Ice Purified/Corrupted/profound 1/2/3 (These are full sets including weapons and set bonuses)
GF 634/1664/1559/733/1559 (624-1559)
GWF 386/833/0/1559/306 (0-1559)
HR 689/508/1558/0/0 (0-1558)
CW 248/833/463/2022/2022 (248-2022)
SW 0/833/1559/0/0 (0-1559)
DC 634/1812/2022/463/2022 (463-2022)
TR 0/1414/0/0/732 (0-1414)
So how is it that a TR can stack Recovery so easily?
No. Dazing Strike can't daze an CC-immune target. It interrupts a cc immune target.
That bug has already been reported since... forever but sadly Dev's don't give a ****.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Proof: http://youtu.be/_P_XFEGq3aE
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---