Yet the shortest daze is 2.5s which cannot be reduced, longest is 6s. And when they come from 4 sources, not that hard to chain.
Sir, just as a FYI, realistically speaking the "four sources" are actually hard to chain. Ok, well not "hard" sir, but more like 'unlikely'. I'm sure you would feel a bit frustrated if people expect the GWF to be able to always land his breathe-in, breathe-out intimidation-associated AoE attacks... or when people assume the GWF would be able to land IBS any time he wants. It's sort of like that, sir.
In actual combat, the longest chained daze a Whisperknife uses are around 9~10 seconds, a Master Infiltrator around 6~7 -- assisted by Skull Cracker, of course. In theory this is possible every 15 seconds, but in practice, like all things, there are complications.
I can get into detailed, tactical assessment as to why that is so if people wish, sir.
Whereas stuns are usually 1-2s, and are reduced by control resist, tenacity and deflect. It's very often that a 2s stun becomes 0.1s when facing a TR. They don't even flinch when taking one.
I don't see anyone particularly objecting making Dazes respect the rules, sir.
Now that in mind, what is better, a 0.1s long stun or 25/60 times longer daze? Like I said, daze >>> stun.
I don't think its objective, or impartial to compare the worst case scenario with the best, sir. There also needs to be some consideration in regards to the general output of damage, defense, etc etc. and its actually a more profound thing than you might expect. A failed stun to a GWF means a failed attack opportunity, but a failed or messed or daze rotation for the TR usually means serious hurt... etc etc..
CC combos other classes use, when it lands square, usually does about as much damage as the total amount of damage a TR does during the longer daze duration. It's true, sir.
NOW, that being said, there is ONE POWER which indeed, should be REVERTED to the old CC duration, sir, and that is Shadow Strike -- often, this is the culprit that makes confuses people into thinking that there are "long dazing TRs that do mega-damage".
The devs should not have upped its daze duration to 4. It should have remained at 2.
TR's have got to be the most dishonest feedback givers, besides control wizards, lol. I mean anybody who is defending their overpoweredness clearly is a phony and should drop it, immediatly because the incoming nerfs are bound to happen anyway. Go ahead and try to shift the attention onto other classes in order to distract the developers from fixing the broken things, as you guys already started doing. It's not going to matter, this time. I just hope GMC, does not take advice from the ones who are so vehemently, defending this mess.
Daze last too long combine with TR immunities it's not possible to have a fair and balance fight that way because the window of opportunity to counterattack is very small compare to all opportunities the TR has to DPS. Daze should be cut down to 25% or maybe immunities down to 50% and daze 50%.
Daze last too long combine with TR immunities it's not possible to have a fair and balance fight that way because the window of opportunity to counterattack is very small compare to all opportunities the TR has to DPS.
Daze should be cut down to 25% or maybe immunities down to 50% and daze 50%.
Just because you haven't learned how to adapt to fight TR's in PvP doesn't mean that they need to be nerfed.
Please don't ask for nerfs to classes, it affects the entire playerbase in very negative ways.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Daze last too long combine with TR immunities it's not possible to have a fair and balance fight that way because the window of opportunity to counterattack is very small compare to all opportunities the TR has to DPS. Daze should be cut down to 25% or maybe immunities down to 50% and daze 50%.
Daze should be cut down in my opinion. TRs have abilities to essentially become immune while they cycle their rotation. They have stealth, shadow strike (which can daze) and ITC (which BREAKS CC)
0
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Daze should be cut down in my opinion. TRs have abilities to essentially become immune while they cycle their rotation. They have stealth, shadow strike (which can daze) and ITC (which BREAKS CC)
I agree Daze should be cut down by 25~50%, with the number of 'Control' skills Rogues has (Daze/Smoke Bomb), Perm Stealth or ITC when out of stealth, and the One SHOT attacks, that hardly give the opponent much chance. The one shot skills are the worst, no matter how BIS you are or how skillful you are, they can just finish you with 1 attack from 100 to 0%, I dont see how this is balanced.
Daze should be cut down in my opinion. TRs have abilities to essentially become immune while they cycle their rotation. They have stealth, shadow strike (which can daze) and ITC (which BREAKS CC)
Only MI have ITC, WK do not. WK do have a break CC attack that requires two hits and for the first hit to be performed before the CC. While this is easily manageable in PvE, in PvP it is unreliable (but still possible).
Only MI have ITC, WK do not. WK do have a break CC attack that requires two hits and for the first hit to be performed before the CC. While this is easily manageable in PvE, in PvP it is unreliable (but still possible).
Considering that probably 90% of TR's seem to be MI (anecdotal), it's fairly safe just talking about TR's having ITC.
Daze should be cut down in my opinion. TRs have abilities to essentially become immune while they cycle their rotation. They have stealth, shadow strike (which can daze) and ITC (which BREAKS CC)
Daze or no, the TR will simply adapt to attack less frequently, and gather some more time in between attacks -- which will then fill up his AP bar to full every 1.25 minutes + another 2 minute cycle of 100% AP over 15 seconds, sir. Then, the end result is the same. The TR still wins, sir.
It's less of a problem with daze, but rather with how MI TRs have ALWAYS had much survival -- and now, with bugged feats, poor daily power design, and problematic AP gain artifacts, they add in guaranteed killing/stopping power to their survival.
Devs probably should fix this first, and then see how things turn out, sir.
Good stuff. I don't understand why they upped the daze on SS either. All we asked for was extra damage so it wasn't just a utility power.
If I may state something a bit bold, sir, I would dare say that most people who complain about TRs don't really understand how we operate, and the proof is that even now, months after mod5, nobody has caught on to just how problematic the SS daze duration increase is. I see a lot of people frustrated in general with dazes, but none of them can actually exactly pin-point just which daze is a problem and why -- meaning, that people are pointing fingers at the wrong stuff.
Contrary to what many people think, in most cases it's not even a Scoundrel they've encountered when they've been by KOd by a TR while being dazed, sir. By reading some of your comments, I can guess that you've caught on to this as well.
Us Scoundrels are the rarest breed of TRs in PvP currently, and with a wild guess I'd estimate about 75% of the PvP TR population is either a Sabo or an Exec. The rest 25% would be Scoundrels, and us Whisperknife Scoundrels are probably around 25% of that 25%, while 75% of that 25% are MI Scoundrels. So, the TR that really can deal a long chain of dazes up to some 9~10 seconds are us, WK Scoundrels, and we're basically around 6~7% of the entire PvP TR population.
Now, as has been discussed above, theoretically, the use of Shadow Strike as a dazing power can greatly elongate a chain of daze. Just a simple combination of stealth-SS + Dazing Strike would guarantee an 8 second daze by itself. This is what people are doing sir, they're making up theoretical maximums and claiming that we can do it -- but since most of them are not TR players, they don't know about the actual practice, why us Scoundrels cannot do that.
A Scoundrel needs to make attacks while the enemy is dazed, since its default damage is hilariously low compared to Sabos or Execs, sir. It also needs the daze to be chained and go on as long as possible, so what Scoundrels want in their rotation is to have the enemy dazed while you're out of stealth and your SS is on cooldown, and then spend time in stealth while your Skull Cracker is in cooldown. This is what a Scoundrel rotation aims at, and therefore, using a SS as an attack to daze someone with, is not desirable at all.
TL;DR version of the above: Scoundrels don't use SS as a dazing attack because they have too much to lose from it. I only do it when it is absolutely necessary sir, by giving up my safety and keep something dazed as long as possible for a purpose. Usually it is against DCs in a mid-node fight. But in normal cases, using SS as a stealth-refiller/daze is simply counter intuitive. Scoundrels come out of the stealth, daze, attack, and absolutely need that SS to go back.
Now, sirs, let's think. Who does not have anything to lose even if he uses SS as just another daze. Which TR can simply dump SS and use it as an attack, and then still be able to simply make up for wasting that precious restealth power?
When you can think up who he is, then you know where the TRs are doing high damage and still permadazing me! protests can be attributed to, sirs... and then, if you have a good memory, you will also realize that this TR, is EXACTLY how most of the premade-level TRs are built.
Considering that probably 90% of TR's seem to be MI (anecdotal), it's fairly safe just talking about TR's having ITC.
I don't think they know which paragon they are talking about and I don't think they even know which paragon path is giving them the problems (as others have pointed out as well). Their suggestions are bad based on their premise and thus I am pointing that out as it would be foolish to consider (even to propose) what they put forth based on that.
I hope Tr daze will be resolved before module 6, still no sign it will be done soon.
I’m worried with the new cap level it will be a complete mess if not.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2015
Closing this up now as we have decided that this has run its course and is now delving into personal attacks, trolling, misinformation, and other violations. Thanks for the proper feedback to the OP and the rest who posted within the Rules. Rest assured, we have passed along this thread for review by the Developers.
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl PWE Community Moderator
Comments
Sir, just as a FYI, realistically speaking the "four sources" are actually hard to chain. Ok, well not "hard" sir, but more like 'unlikely'. I'm sure you would feel a bit frustrated if people expect the GWF to be able to always land his breathe-in, breathe-out intimidation-associated AoE attacks... or when people assume the GWF would be able to land IBS any time he wants. It's sort of like that, sir.
In actual combat, the longest chained daze a Whisperknife uses are around 9~10 seconds, a Master Infiltrator around 6~7 -- assisted by Skull Cracker, of course. In theory this is possible every 15 seconds, but in practice, like all things, there are complications.
I can get into detailed, tactical assessment as to why that is so if people wish, sir.
I don't see anyone particularly objecting making Dazes respect the rules, sir.
I don't think its objective, or impartial to compare the worst case scenario with the best, sir. There also needs to be some consideration in regards to the general output of damage, defense, etc etc. and its actually a more profound thing than you might expect. A failed stun to a GWF means a failed attack opportunity, but a failed or messed or daze rotation for the TR usually means serious hurt... etc etc..
CC combos other classes use, when it lands square, usually does about as much damage as the total amount of damage a TR does during the longer daze duration. It's true, sir.
NOW, that being said, there is ONE POWER which indeed, should be REVERTED to the old CC duration, sir, and that is Shadow Strike -- often, this is the culprit that makes confuses people into thinking that there are "long dazing TRs that do mega-damage".
The devs should not have upped its daze duration to 4. It should have remained at 2.
Daze last too long combine with TR immunities it's not possible to have a fair and balance fight that way because the window of opportunity to counterattack is very small compare to all opportunities the TR has to DPS. Daze should be cut down to 25% or maybe immunities down to 50% and daze 50%.
Just because you haven't learned how to adapt to fight TR's in PvP doesn't mean that they need to be nerfed.
Please don't ask for nerfs to classes, it affects the entire playerbase in very negative ways.
Daze should be cut down in my opinion. TRs have abilities to essentially become immune while they cycle their rotation. They have stealth, shadow strike (which can daze) and ITC (which BREAKS CC)
I agree Daze should be cut down by 25~50%, with the number of 'Control' skills Rogues has (Daze/Smoke Bomb), Perm Stealth or ITC when out of stealth, and the One SHOT attacks, that hardly give the opponent much chance. The one shot skills are the worst, no matter how BIS you are or how skillful you are, they can just finish you with 1 attack from 100 to 0%, I dont see how this is balanced.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Only MI have ITC, WK do not. WK do have a break CC attack that requires two hits and for the first hit to be performed before the CC. While this is easily manageable in PvE, in PvP it is unreliable (but still possible).
Considering that probably 90% of TR's seem to be MI (anecdotal), it's fairly safe just talking about TR's having ITC.
Daze or no, the TR will simply adapt to attack less frequently, and gather some more time in between attacks -- which will then fill up his AP bar to full every 1.25 minutes + another 2 minute cycle of 100% AP over 15 seconds, sir. Then, the end result is the same. The TR still wins, sir.
It's less of a problem with daze, but rather with how MI TRs have ALWAYS had much survival -- and now, with bugged feats, poor daily power design, and problematic AP gain artifacts, they add in guaranteed killing/stopping power to their survival.
Devs probably should fix this first, and then see how things turn out, sir.
If I may state something a bit bold, sir, I would dare say that most people who complain about TRs don't really understand how we operate, and the proof is that even now, months after mod5, nobody has caught on to just how problematic the SS daze duration increase is. I see a lot of people frustrated in general with dazes, but none of them can actually exactly pin-point just which daze is a problem and why -- meaning, that people are pointing fingers at the wrong stuff.
Contrary to what many people think, in most cases it's not even a Scoundrel they've encountered when they've been by KOd by a TR while being dazed, sir. By reading some of your comments, I can guess that you've caught on to this as well.
Us Scoundrels are the rarest breed of TRs in PvP currently, and with a wild guess I'd estimate about 75% of the PvP TR population is either a Sabo or an Exec. The rest 25% would be Scoundrels, and us Whisperknife Scoundrels are probably around 25% of that 25%, while 75% of that 25% are MI Scoundrels. So, the TR that really can deal a long chain of dazes up to some 9~10 seconds are us, WK Scoundrels, and we're basically around 6~7% of the entire PvP TR population.
Now, as has been discussed above, theoretically, the use of Shadow Strike as a dazing power can greatly elongate a chain of daze. Just a simple combination of stealth-SS + Dazing Strike would guarantee an 8 second daze by itself. This is what people are doing sir, they're making up theoretical maximums and claiming that we can do it -- but since most of them are not TR players, they don't know about the actual practice, why us Scoundrels cannot do that.
A Scoundrel needs to make attacks while the enemy is dazed, since its default damage is hilariously low compared to Sabos or Execs, sir. It also needs the daze to be chained and go on as long as possible, so what Scoundrels want in their rotation is to have the enemy dazed while you're out of stealth and your SS is on cooldown, and then spend time in stealth while your Skull Cracker is in cooldown. This is what a Scoundrel rotation aims at, and therefore, using a SS as an attack to daze someone with, is not desirable at all.
TL;DR version of the above: Scoundrels don't use SS as a dazing attack because they have too much to lose from it. I only do it when it is absolutely necessary sir, by giving up my safety and keep something dazed as long as possible for a purpose. Usually it is against DCs in a mid-node fight. But in normal cases, using SS as a stealth-refiller/daze is simply counter intuitive. Scoundrels come out of the stealth, daze, attack, and absolutely need that SS to go back.
Now, sirs, let's think. Who does not have anything to lose even if he uses SS as just another daze. Which TR can simply dump SS and use it as an attack, and then still be able to simply make up for wasting that precious restealth power?
When you can think up who he is, then you know where the TRs are doing high damage and still permadazing me! protests can be attributed to, sirs... and then, if you have a good memory, you will also realize that this TR, is EXACTLY how most of the premade-level TRs are built.
I don't think they know which paragon they are talking about and I don't think they even know which paragon path is giving them the problems (as others have pointed out as well). Their suggestions are bad based on their premise and thus I am pointing that out as it would be foolish to consider (even to propose) what they put forth based on that.
I’m worried with the new cap level it will be a complete mess if not.
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]